Date   

Re: K Brakes parts on CNR 1929/30 boxcars

proto48er
 

Dennis -

Sorry for the delay in responding - I have been occupied and not on
line for several days. Others have already given you the Sylvan
website.

The "O" scale Sylvan car is fairly nicely detailed, with a one piece
sides, ends and roof and a separate floor. No special power
handbrake parts, however. Still, it is very nice.

Curiously, the diagonal side "brace" zees on the model are "upside
down", as they truly are on the CN prototypes! The open part of the
diagonal zees faces upward. On the prototype, it seems that this
would tend to catch and trap water and cause the siding to leak.
(Maybe water up there is all in the solid phase, so no problem, eh?)
I say "upside down" because it seems that they should have the open
part of the zee facing downward, to shed water away from the siding.

If the diagonal zees were "right side up", then the model would be
correct for a series of Frisco cars, and some others. That was why I
bought two of the models! Will try to remove/replace the diagonals
on one car.

A.T. Kott

--- In STMFC@..., "Dennis Storzek" <destorzek@...> wrote:

--- In STMFC@..., "proto48er" <atkott@> wrote:

Many thanks for the photo, Dennis! I am getting ready to build
the "O" scale Sylvan Models kit of this car, and the info is
timely.

The second image is now available at:

http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/photos/browse/fbbf

It gives a little better perspective as to how the parts fit
together.

AT, what car did Sylvan do? Could you give us a link to a web site
or
at least an image?

Thanks,

Dennis


Re: [SPAM] RE: Re: Shaping/bending styrene.

Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

Just make sure you don't use green rock VBG!

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: [SPAM] RE: Re: Shaping/bending styrene.

Schuyler Larrabee
 

From Jack Burgess

I'm getting off topic on this response but the comment by Dennis reminded me
of how a contractor working on one of the public projects I was in charge of
handled a "curved" wall. In order to break up a long hallway, the architect
designed the wall as a "wave" (appropriate since this was a indoor swim
center). The curves were about 5' radius curves. The contractor built a form
with this radius, laid a panel of sheetrock on it, and thoroughly wet it
with a garden hose. The next morning, the sheetrock had dried with the same
curvature as the form. (This might be a way to cove corners in a layout
room.)

Jack Burgess
www.yosemitevalleyrr.com

Yes, Jack, this works very well for backdrop construction. At the North Shore Model Railroad Club,
all but the original backdrops are done with 3/8" drywall, made wet flat on the floor, and lifted in
place (with appropriate preliminary cuts to clear pipes, conduit and other impedimentia) and screwed
to upright supports ranging from 2x4s to 1x1s. After a few days they dried nicely, and painted just
as well as any wall. It doesn't take a ton of water, really only a painting on with a house brush
on one side. We lost a sheet to an overenthusiastic helper who dumped a five-gallon bucket of water
on it. >8^l

Incidentally, I've had fun with this professionally, as an architect, explaining to drywall guys how
to do it. I've been met with disbelief on the job, but in general they've come around to try it.
In one case, I thought I was going to have to demonstrate for them. This is all the more surprising
because it's in USG's handbook.

SGL


Re: My New Compressor

Tim O'Connor
 

Bill Welch wrote (a while back)

I received my new compressor last week and I am very pleased. It is a
Campbell-Hausfeld Model # FP2040. Here is the link, I hope it works!
http://aircompressorsdirect.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=3_180_26&products_id=119

============================================================

Bill, I'm looking for a new compressor. This one looks good.
Two questions -- How is it holding up? And is it oil-less? The
web site doesn't indicate if it uses oil or not.

Thanks
Tim O'Connor


Re: White Glue

Roger Robar
 

The publication "Fine Woodworking" magazine in the July/August issue had a
very extensive test article on all the different types of wood working
glues. The only [real] waterproof glue and the most strength of all tested
was 'Titebond III'. It is classified as a Type1, PVA glue. I have used this
glue for exterior applications with no problems. This would be an excellent
glue to use for making built-up formed model car roofs.

Roger Robar - modeling the B&M in northern NH.


Question about steam freight site photo

Albert & Charlene Spor
 

Hi all
On the steam freight cars website there is a photo in the reefer
gallery of an NX reefer leased to Morrell. I would love to model this
sometime, but can't quite make out what the ends are on my monitor.
It is a Ted Culotta photo, maybe your original is cleaner and you can
see precisely what type of end it is. Here is the url
http://www.steamfreightcars.com/gallery/reefer.nx1682main.html
thanks
Albert Spor


Re: white glue

pierreoliver2003 <pierre.oliver@...>
 

Ed,
Many white glues, as well as most yellow carpenters glue, do not dry
waterproof. Check the label of the particular product you are using to
be sure.
Pierre Oliver

--- In STMFC@..., "ed_mines" <ed_mines@...> wrote:

I have no doubt that parts made by laminating thin sheets of material
with white glue are strong and white glue is very good for water
proofing but years ago I had difficulty painting white glue.

I used white glue and Floquil paint in aerosol cans on the first
Ambroid kits I assembled. The wet paint pulled away from thick laters
of diy white glue.

For a long time I used Ambroid cement dissolved in MEK to seal wood.

Ed Mines


white glue

ed_mines
 

I have no doubt that parts made by laminating thin sheets of material
with white glue are strong and white glue is very good for water
proofing but years ago I had difficulty painting white glue.

I used white glue and Floquil paint in aerosol cans on the first
Ambroid kits I assembled. The wet paint pulled away from thick laters
of diy white glue.

For a long time I used Ambroid cement dissolved in MEK to seal wood.

Ed Mines


Re: Door Man

Shawn Beckert
 

Clark,

I believe the name is "Southwest Scale Productions".
Andy Carlson carries most if not all, of his doors.

Shawn Beckert


Re: Shaping/bending styrene.

Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
 

I'd be worried that any paper/wood product would absorb moisture from the
air over time and 'deform itself' - especially the single sheet of thick paper
that is not impregnated with white glue.
For an untreated single sheet of unsupported shaped thick paper, this would be the probable eventuality; but providing the required support (carlines or a shaped "plug") is a presumption, and sealing is, of course an eventuality- but it has not yet been addressed.

Paper is a time honored model railroad construction material, the most common type being Strathmore, the brand of a type of Bristol board, a high, or even pure, rag content paper of archival quality that is very dense, quick stiff, and has a variety of surfaces. It is sold in art stores in several thicknesses, the most common being about .008" - .010" (you will have to measure this yourself inasmuch as the art store will have no idea what you are talking about). The great pioneering modeler Bill Clouser was a great promoter of Strathmore, and many of his models were constructed of this material (he later became an enthusiast -the first?-- of resin casting!).

Unlike styrene, the surface of Strathmore remains relatively, though not visibly porous, and in this regard gluing/cementing is best undertaken with white glue- one of the easiest-to-use of all glues. This same relative porosity also requires that all surfaces eventually be sealed against the effects of moisture. This can be done quiet satisfactorily with any sanding sealer (usually a clear lacquer or similar containing a filler- commonly talc). I use Testor's Sanding Sealer Dope (a large bottle purchased ??? years ago!). (When I need more, I will head for the R-C store to purchase whatever that side of the hobby now uses). I lightly sand the surface with 400-600 grit before submitting it to final finishing.

Impregnating/sealing the surface with white glue itself would work, of course, but you would have the devil to pay in finally getting to a smooth-enough surface for a good finish. Stick to the products designed specially for such sealing. Infinitely easier.

I have two HO paper model cars made in 1936-7 (in Palo Alto, CA) that are very much intact with no warping or disintegration, and my own experience over 60 years of modeling supports my views (recognizing, or course, that experience is not the same as wisdom!). My other day job :-) as a long-time traditional boat re-builder and restorer also has served to give me considerable understanding of how wood and wood products work with and react to moisture and glues.

Although in my scratch-modeling I do most commonly use styrene these days, I still also commonly and easily turn to and use paper and wood when these provide easier pathways toward the goals I am seeking. They all use differing modeling disciplines and methods, and knowing, learning, and applying these is for me a significant part of the pleasurable modeling process that we all engage in.

BTW, I use the same cold molded laminating methods described with the paper to lay up with wood very strong molded inner boat bottoms.

Denny




Denny S. Anspach, MD
Sacramento


Door Man

rockroll50401 <cepropst@...>
 

Could someone please tell me the name of the company that makes the HO
replacement plastic box car doors. I think it's something
like 'Southwest models'??
Thank you,
Clark Propst


Re: Shaping/bending styrene.

Monk Alan <Alan.Monk@...>
 

Which is pretty much the method I use.

I find that using a former of slightly *smaller* diameter than the
intended finished radius helps and when I remove the piece from the
boiling water I plunge it into cold water.

I've made plenty of British railway van wagon roofs over the years using
this method - sadly our kit manufacturers have yet to come up with an
acceptably thin moulded roof, so I replace with thin plasticard, formed
as required.

A good variation is to also form a thicker piece which is then cut down
to fit between the car sides/ends and is laminated to the thinner
visible roof - this helps it retain it shape and makes it a 'plug-fit'
into the car body, making it easier to fix in place.

HTH,
Alan
London, UK

-----Original Message-----
From: Richard White
Sent: 05 October 2007 18:17
To: STMFC@...



Hi everyone, I've just seen this thread.
My method is:
1.. cut the roof piece slightly over size,
2.. take an empty tin-can of suitable diameter, and bind the
styrene roof piece to it with a bandage,
3.. fill the tin can with boiling water and leave to cool.
I have rooves made over 25 years ago by this method which are
still as good as the day I made them.
Richard White._,_.___

.

<http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=2554753/grpspId=1705169725/m
sgId=66870/stime=1191604275/nc1=4767086/nc2=3848618/nc3=4025291>



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Re: Shaping/bending styrene.

Jack Burgess <jack@...>
 

I'm getting off topic on this response but the comment by Dennis reminded me
of how a contractor working on one of the public projects I was in charge of
handled a "curved" wall. In order to break up a long hallway, the architect
designed the wall as a "wave" (appropriate since this was a indoor swim
center). The curves were about 5' radius curves. The contractor built a form
with this radius, laid a panel of sheetrock on it, and thoroughly wet it
with a garden hose. The next morning, the sheetrock had dried with the same
curvature as the form. (This might be a way to cove corners in a layout
room.)

Jack Burgess
www.yosemitevalleyrr.com


Re: Shaping/bending styrene.

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Dennis Storzek wrote:
This is the reason that plywood is so stiff.
Exactly. Think of bending a stack of LOOSE sheets of the plywood plies.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Shaping/bending styrene.

Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...>
 

This is the reason that plywood is so stiff. We normally think of
plywood as a flat sheet, but sometimes it is used to make curved
objects by building it and letting the glue cure on a curved form..
Curved veneer passenger car headlinings, round veneer drum tables, old
time skis, and the original skateboards all kept their shape because
they were assembled from multiple plies of veneer on curved forms.

Dennis


Re: Shaping/bending styrene.

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Jim Betz wrote:
I'd be worried that any paper/wood product would absorb moisture from the air over time and 'deform itself' . . .
Paper and wood doesn't "deform itself" at all (though of course wood may continue to dry and shrink over years). 500-year old paper is still flat. The real point is:

. . . attempt to get the shape of the form and the shape of the resultant roof as nearly perfect as possible . . . so that you don't 'store' stresses in the roof that can be 'released' by moisture in the air or weaknesses in the walls of the model.
This is the real point, and well stated. But any composite (such as a multi-layer part) which is glued will be VERY rigid because each layer is prevented from moving or bending by the adjoining layer which cannot slide. In fact, something like Denny's three layers of paper can be much more rigid than a thicker solid piece of the same material. The same applies to "deforming itself."

Anthony Thompson
Dept. of Materials Science & Engineering
University of California, Berkeley
thompsonmarytony@...


Rock Island Question

George Hollwedel
 

In 1951 Rock Island received 2,000 PS-1 boxcars from Pullman with the "100 Years of Progress" logo. Were the trucks black or car body color?

Thanks,

George Hollwedel


Prototype N Scale Models
by George Hollwedel
proto.nscale@...
310 Loma Verde Street
Buda, TX 78610-9785
512-796-6883

---------------------------------
Don't let your dream ride pass you by. Make it a reality with Yahoo! Autos.


Re: Shaping/bending styrene.

Jim Betz
 

Denny,

I'd be worried that any paper/wood product would absorb moisture from the
air over time and 'deform itself' - especially the single sheet of thick paper
that is not impregnated with white glue. I'm not certain that even a
sanding sealer and paint will keep enough moisture out to provide the
longevity you probably want/need. If it has some form of white glue in it
then my experience is that that product line will not absorb water from
the atmosphere and soften once it is fully dry (a day or more depending upon
how much glue and how much it is exposed to the air). White glue -does- go
soft if it is truly wet ... but moisture from the air should not be a problem.
(You do live in a part of the world that gets significant humidity after all.)
As you discovered, white glue will penetrate paper/wood and make it extremely
rigid.

If at all possible you should attempt to get the shape of the form and the
shape of the resultant roof as nearly perfect as possible rather than using
the flexibility of the roof as a way to 'make it fit' - so that you don't
'store' stresses in the roof that can be 'released' by moisture in the air
or weaknesses in the walls of the model. If you go around the house and
look for things round you will almost always find something that is the
correct dimension. Superficially it would seem that when you are forming
a roof you would want it to end up being 'squeezed' slightly to form the
final shape - to make it easier to fit it to the body/walls.

One possible way to prevent any stored stresses from deforming the final
roof over time -might- be to coat the underside with a thin layer of epoxy -
this will make the roof considerably rigid and may make it impossible to
change its shape enough to 'make it fit' so experiment first. If you have
never tried this trick try thinning epoxy with isopropyl - be careful of
the quantities because the IPA will tend to accelerate the cure of the
epoxy ... but it -is- possible to get epoxy to flow like water and give
a very thin but very air tight coating. Use a fairly slow drying epoxy
such as the 1 hour stuff the model airplane guys use.

Your testing procedure seems very good - if you are using dry heat I'd
use more heat than you can get using hot water inside a glass ... and I
think I'd use significantly longer drying times than you used - such as 24
hours more after it first seems dry - before I removed it from the mold.

- Jim in San Jose


Re: Shaping/bending styrene.

Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
 

I submitted the original question on this
subject, and I have been most interested in the
many posts, both on and off line, relating all
of the methods that have worked over the years.
Although I asked about styrene, the fundamental
need was to fashion a radial car roof out of
whatever material might work the best for me.

With this in mind over this past week I tried
some quick and dirty experiments of my own, the
fundamental tools being a cylindrical glass
tumbler, a bunch of broad rubber bands, and 180º
F. water dispensed by a standard hot water
dispenser on the kitchen sink.

1) My first effort was to cold mold the roof out
of three layers of c. .008" Strathmore paper (a
brand of Bristol board- a very dense
high-rag-content paper). Such molding requires
slow-setting glues, and in this regard ordinary
white glue was perfect. I laminated the layers
with the white glue laid on with a small brush,
applied it around the glass before the glue could
set up, and kept it there with rubber bands. I
filled the glass with the hot water to provide
some dry heat, and an hour later I removed the
rubber bands and the molding.

2) My second effort was with a roof made of .031"
(1/32") thick scribed Northeastern wood siding.
In the same glass, filled anew with hot water,
the wood was soaked for about ten minutes. The
wood was removed, the water decanted, and the
wood was then wrapped on the surface of the glass
with rubber bands in the same manner as above,
scribed side down. The glass was then refilled
with the hot water to continue a (dry) direct
heat source. This was left for about three hours
so that the wood could thoroughly dry.

3) My third effort was with a roof made of .016"
single layer Strathmore paper applied to the hot
glass in the same manner, but thoroughly soaked
beforehand for several minutes in 180º water.
This piece was dry in about an hour, after which
it could be removed.

4) The last effort was with a roof made of .030
sheet styrene applied cold to the hot glass
tumbler. It was removed after about one hour.

Results:

1) Glued-up paper: Remarkable! The resulting
molded radial roof almost exactly mirrors the
radius of the glass tumbler, and is so stiff, one
can almost physically stand on it before there is
any deformation. The down side of this is that
unless the radius is almost right on from the
git-go, getting an accurate fit without a
force-fit will result in a lot of unrelieved
stress that is going to be difficult to deal with
(the radius of the tumbler, and thus the molded
roof as well, are both tighter than the desired
roof radius). Finishing such a roof would be
easy inasmuch as Strathmore is one of the easier
materials to fill and paint to a smooth finish.
In most installations, presuming the fit was
good, no carlines at all may be required.

2) Wood: By far the very easiest. Bending wood
with hot water/steam is a time honored process,
and as expected here, it worked well to a "T". As
stiff as the laminated paper turned out to be (as above), the bent wood turned out just the
opposite- sufficiently flexible to readily adapt
to a variety of radii. The bent wood by itself
will maintain the bend for posterity if left
alone, but in this regard it will need to be
protected by thorough sealing on both sides with
a good filler/sanding sealer. This will also be
required to gain a good finishing surface. If a
roof of this type is to be removable, carlines
will be required. If mounted permanently, either
a very few carlines, or none at all would be
required, depending upon roof size and existing
supports.

3) Paper, single layer alone: Very simple. After
a thorough pre-soaking in hot water, this also
worked quite well, and a nicely curved roof
resulted that was not stiff, and adapted well to
a variety of radii. The thickness is not as
great, and in this regard, supporting structure
(including carlines) and fasciae would probably
have to fabricated (not hard to do with either
styrene or strip wood).

4) .030" sheet Styrene: It worked, but not very
successfully (good solid bend, but way too much
"spring back"). Richard White's serendipitous
and very good post on this same subject today
points to the reason: The water I use is not hot
enough and/or the glass wall of the tumbler I use
does not transfer heat well enough. Using a
suitable metal can (excellent heat transfer)
instead of the glass would seem to be a key here.
Whether one would get his results with only 180º
F. water (v. 212º F) or not, would have to await
trial. Also, what the results might be with .020"
or .010" sheet styrene under identical
circumstances are as yet unknown to me, but I
would expect they might be much better.

Conclusions:

All of these methods used in the creation of a
curved HO car roof have something to recommend
them, as well each has some detractions. I have
yet to decide which one I will elect; much
depending upon how easily I determine it will be
to trim to size, detail, fit and finish these
roofs "non-destructively"- i.e. can I get from
here to there without ruining things!

As in most instances, what works best for one
person does not in fact work the same for
another- reflecting common individual differences
in both skills and familiarities working with
different materials over the years. Styrene is
the current lingua franca of model scratch
building, but both paper and wood as
model-building materials have long played a
distinguished role in fine model building and
should not be summarily dismissed. Each has their
own place. It is certainly not an "either/or", it
is "both", and any or all of these materials can
be used quite well with each other.

This has been an interesting exercise, and like
others I will be collecting all of the posts into
an edited compendium in WORD.

Denny


--
Denny S. Anspach, MD
Sacramento


Re: K Brakes parts on CNR 1929/30 boxcars

Rob Kirkham <rdkirkham@...>
 

Are those Universal brake booster castings available separately Ted?

Rob Kirkham

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ted Culotta" <tculotta@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2007 4:04 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: K Brakes parts on CNR 1929/30 boxcars


If it is the same mechanism as used on these Katy cars then it is a
Universal brake booster. I included some castings to make this in
the kits for these Katy versions.

Regards,
Ted Culotta

Speedwitch Media
645 Tanner Marsh Road, Guilford, CT 06437
info@...
www.speedwitch.com
(203) 747-0190








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