Ed wrote:

Were gondola interiors ever cleaned? I think debris would accumulate
for many years before it was discarded.
Dunnage utilized in loading all types of open top loads would most certainly
have been removed in order to prepare the next out bound load. No doubt
scraps were scattered about and left, but the majority of larger pieces would
have to be removed in order for loads to be set correctly and blocked for
interchange.

Has anyone ever seen a puddle in a gon or a picture of a gon? There are no
holes for drainage.
Though solid steel floor cars may not have been built with and sort of drain
holes you can be sure that shortly into service they were riddled with holes
utilized to secure loads. Torch cut holes in gon floors and sides was
permitted (within reason), though the AAR's Arbitration Committee eventually put
limits on the size of the holes. They were supposed to be less than an inch
and a half but it's a sure bet that was ignored more than followed. By 1947
the Car Construction Committee approved drawings for tie down clips to be
welded to car exteriors to help alleviate some of the hole cutting problems. The
layout for the clips coupled with holes (1 1/16") bored into the top bulb
and "Z" sections was adopted as a "recommended" practice in 1947 followed by an
"alternate" design adopted in 1952.

In the era when most exposed steel rusted I can understand why some
railroads would order wood floors.
The choice had little to do with rust. Wood floors offered shippers an easy
way to secure dunnage. Later came combination steel and wood floors
followed by complete installations of "nailable" steel floors.

Were steel bands used in the steam era?
Steel banding products were patented by a number of manufacturers beginning
in the late 'teens. By the mid 1930s many AAR Open Top Loading Diagrams were
listing steel bands as an "alternative" to high tension or "annealed" wire
stranding. Both the steel and lumber industry were actively involved with the
AAR's Loading Committee. Prior to, and during WWII most of the loading
rules for both industries were revamped completely to utilize steel banding.
Rule 6 for lumber loads secured with steel banding was adopted in 1940.

Kind Regards,

Guy Wilber
West Bend, WI





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Hi Folks

Here is the DS/SS/Steel split for box and auto cars for the PRR and
NYC, 1945 and 1950:


PRR:

January 1945
PRR_____%____Number
DS_____0.0%____0
SS_____21.2%____16,690
Steel_____78.8%____62,103
Known_____100.0%____78,793
Unknown_____0.0%____0
Total_____100.0%____78,793

July 1950
PRR_____%____Number
DS_____0.0%____0
SS_____9.9%____6,489
Steel_____90.1%____59,156
Known_____100.0%____65,645
Unknown_____0.0%____0
Total_____100.0%____65,645

The Pennsy had no double sheathed cars in either year. Its single
sheathed fleet declined by over 10,000 cars, and its steel cars
dropped by another 3,000 for an overall decline of some 13,000 cars.


NYC:
The following tables are for box and auto cars with NYC reporting
marks.

January 1945
NYC_____%____Number
DS_____8.3%____4,564
SS_____3.6%____1,963
Steel_____88.2%____48,710
Known_____100.0%____55,237
Unknown_____0.0%____5
Total_____100.0%____55,242

July 1950
NYC_____%____Number
DS_____0.7%____475
SS_____0.6%____381
Steel_____98.7%____63,295
Known_____100.0%____64,151
Unknown_____0.0%____0
Total_____100.0%____64,151

DS cars were reduced by over 4,000; SS by 1,500. Steel grew by over
14,500 cars, however, for an overall gain of close to 9,000 cars.


The following two tables are for the NYC and its lessees (as of
December 31,1949), which includes cars with the following reporting
marks: NYC, B&A, CASO, CCC&StL, MC, NOR, P&E, P&LE, PMcK&Y.

January 1945
NYC+Lessees_____%____Number
DS_____11.7%____7,782
SS_____3.0%____1,968
Steel_____85.3%____56,821
Known_____100.0%____66,571
Unknown_____0.0%____5
Total_____100.0%____66,576

July 1950
NYC+Lessees_____%____Number
DS_____0.7%____523
SS_____0.5%____381
Steel_____98.7%____69,558
Known_____100.0%____70,462
Unknown_____0.0%____0
Total_____100.0%____70,462

The DS and SS fleets were dramatically reduced, steel increased, and
the system as a whole grew by about 6%.

Best wishes,
Larry Ostresh
Laramie, Wyoming

Hi everyone,

I honestly believe this gondola dirty floor subject is being overdone. In scrap yard service it is true with magnet loading and unloading dirt does build up on the floor.

In the classic era, gons in coal, aggregate and mineral service would be cleaned before loading, as the shipper did not want his product contaminated. All railroads had cleaning tracks for such work. Many coal mines cleaned cars on the empty side of the mine prior to loading. Also many gons at the receiving end were cleaned by laborers with shovels before release.

Ted

At 09:42 PM 10/9/2007, you wrote:

ED,

I have put debris in most of my gons. Dirt, weeds, rust scraps, a few ferns,
left over wood blocking. Almost anything could be in there, Standard scenery
techniques were used.

CJ Riley






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One piece, the ones on the ATSF stock cars. I'm not counting the snap in brake rigging.

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS

Hi Folks

Here is the DS/SS/Steel split for January 1945, for box, auto, and
ventilated cars in interchange service for U.S. Class 1 railroads and
their lessees. Similar summaries for April 1949 and July 1950 are
shown for comparative purposes.

January 1945
Class 1_____%____Number
DS_____22.7%____168,371
SS_____27.8%____206,319
Steel_____47.4%____352,421
Other_____0.8%____5,934
Known_____98.7%____733,045
Unknown_____1.3%____9,704
Total_____100.0%____742,749

April 1949
Class 1_____%____Number
DS_____11.4%____83,441
SS_____23.7%____173,569
Steel_____64.0%____468,726
Other_____0.8%____5,574
Known_____99.9%____731,310
Unknown_____0.1%____933
Total_____100.0%____732,243

July 1950
Class 1_____%____Number
DS_____9.2%____65,577
SS_____22.8%____162,309
Steel_____67.2%____477,784
Other_____0.7%____4,783
Known_____99.9%____710,453
Unknown_____0.1%____574
Total_____100.0%____711,027

The 1949 and 1950 summaries differ from previous lists I have
published because in this case they include the lessees of Class 1
railroads, such as the Boston and Albany, Big Four, Michigan Central,
etc., which I had formerly excluded.

Note that there are nearly 10,000 cars in 1945 for which I do not
know the sheathing type – nevertheless, close to 99% are "Known",
which permits one to draw several conclusions:

• Steel sheathed cars were a plurality, but not a majority, in
1945 – in 1950 they constituted over two-thirds of the fleet.

• More than 60% of the double sheathed cars – over 100,000 –
were retired between 1945 and 1950. About 44,000 single sheathed
cars (21%) disappeared. Steel grew by over 125,000. The U.S. fleet
declined by nearly 32,000 cars.

• The ratio of DS to SS was 45%:55% in 1945; in 1950 it had
dropped to 29%:71%.

As time permits, I will present 1945 summary tables for individual
railroads.

Best wishes,
Larry Ostresh
Laramie, Wyoming

Rich,

As info the CB&Q did have a class system for freight cars but it
was internal to the Mechanical Department and the classes were not
lettered anywhere on the cars nor was there any listing generally
available. The only comprehensive listing that I have located in the
Mechanical Department archives was the original listing from the
20's when the system was created. That drawing was not, to my
knowledge, ever updated.

Cars belonging to the C&S and FW&D at times had CB&Q classes
applied to them but only if they were identical to an equivalent CB&Q
car. They had no system of their own.

To the best of my knowledge the GN, NP, and SP&S had no such
class system.

Beyond the time frame of this list neither the BN nor the BNSF have
any such system.

The AT&SF did have a class system, lettered on the cars, and known to
the railroad in general.

It can not be determined from the SLSF drawings whether they did or
did not have any class system. I have yet to figure out their system of
organization of drawings much less anything like a class system.

Russ

In a message dated 10/10/2007 12:58:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
atsf@inow.com writes:

Recently I received some IM stock cars from our good friend Andy. When
installing .088 wheel sets I noticed that all the frames are out of plumb
(correct word???). When the correct axle length was used one wheel would
set about .020 to .030 high.
My question is what causes this, the part being taken out of the mold to
soon? I'm quite sure the mold is correct! They said they would send me new

parts but while talking to them they didn't seem to have any idea of what I
was talking about.
Has anyone else noticed this?

John,

Are these the newer one piece truck or the multiple piece truck? If the
latter it is simply poor assembly techniques. These trucks have been a problem
since they were first introduced and do show up on more recent runs
occassionally.

Rich Orr


**************************************
See what's new at
http://www.aol.com

Recently I received some IM stock cars from our good friend Andy. When installing .088 wheel sets I noticed that all the frames are out of plumb (correct word???). When the correct axle length was used one wheel would set about .020 to .030 high.
My question is what causes this, the part being taken out of the mold to soon? I'm quite sure the mold is correct! They said they would send me new parts but while talking to them they didn't seem to have any idea of what I was talking about.
Has anyone else noticed this?

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS

All,

Here is a lesson that I learned, and I thought I'd pass it along
to the rest of you.

I just booked my room at the Naperville Holiday Inn for this
year's Sunshine Models meet.
When I called the 1-800 number, I was told that the $89 rate was
"sold out" but I could get a room at their "discount rate" of "only" $160!

So I called the Naperville Holiday Inn directly. The number at
the top of the Sunshine Models flyer (kindly posted to STMFC Files by Ben
Hom) gets you the guy who takes care of convention rooms. I asked him if
there were any more rooms at the $89 rate, and he took care of me.

The lesson here is: don't believe the 1-800 folks. If you can't
get the rate you want, call the hotel directly. This also applies at
Cocoa Beach (Prototype Rails), and likely applies at the other Prototype
Modeling meets around the country.


I look forward to seeing many of you in Naperville, and again in Cocoa
Beach!

Regards,

-Jeff

--
Jeff Aley jaley@pcocd2.intel.com
DPG Chipsets Product Engineering
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533

It was also excellent for painted truck tires and rubber rims of
tank bogies. Haven't seen it in a very long time.
Pierre Oliver


--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Bud Rindfleisch <BlackDiamondRR@...>
wrote:

Hi,
Years back Pactra used to sell spray cans of primer

called "hot rod

primer". It was not black and not grey but a nice dark grey color

that I

liked better than weathered or grimy black and it was thin
pigmented...it didn't hide details. Has anyone else used this and

do you

know if anyone else sells such a color today?
Bud Rindfleisch

Jeff,
Most conventions ask that the attendees call the host hotel directly to
get "the rate".
Chuck Hladik



************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

Hi,
Years back Pactra used to sell spray cans of primer called "hot rod primer". It was not black and not grey but a nice dark grey color that I liked better than weathered or grimy black and it was thin pigmented...it didn't hide details. Has anyone else used this and do you know if anyone else sells such a color today?
Bud Rindfleisch

Hello Frank,

Car classes for AT&SF freight cars are listed in the book "Santa Fe Ry.
Listing of Freight Cars By Class and Car Number," by Larry Occhiello. It was
published jointly by the Santa Fe Modelers' Organization and the Santa Fe
Ry. Historical Society in 1991, but is unfortunately out of print today.
Other books available at the Santa Fe society's Web site, atsfrr,net, give
class designations for particular types of cars, such as ice refrigerators,
boxcars, furniture and automobile cars, and tank cars, but the Occhiello
book, which is based on the railroad's own "live lists" for various years,
is the only comprehensive reference.

So long,

Andy

Andy Sperandeo
Executive Editor
Model Railroader magazine
asperandeo@mrmag.com
262-796-8776, ext. 461
FAX 262-796-1142

I keep sweepings from my work bench in a shoe box. A delightful
assortment of grunge, squiggly things and whatsits.

A light smattering of the fines is debris. More is a load. Needs
to be dyed or painted crimson (old rust), brown (really old rust) and
orange (fresh rust, not much of this).






--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "ed_mines" <ed_mines@...> wrote:

<snip>

What do you guys use as debris in your models?

<snip>

Ed

The B&OHS (www.borhs.org) sells a book in their Company
Store, "Freight Car Equipment 1917-1960" by Richard K. Daniels.

It is a printed spreadsheet of information found in each annual B&O
Summary of Equipment by type and class.

Check the B&OHS Company Store listings, stock number 74001, $14 plus
shipping.





--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Ferko" <destron@...> wrote:

Is there a list somewhere that gives the class designations for

freight

cars for each series of running numbers of the ATSF, UP and the

B&O? I'd

most specifically be interested in the cars of the early 1950 (1950-

1953).

Also: what other roads used such a system of in-house

classification for

cars?

Frank Valoczy
Vancouver, BC

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

Has anyone heard anything about NEXT year's Naperville dates?

We

have been moving "forward" in days, away from Halloween, but Martin

may

or may not continue that next year.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Isn't it always the last weekend in October, no matter what day of the
week Halloween falls on? Can't imagine 2008 would be any different.

Mike Skibbe

Hiya

Smith's Model Engines Rail Books on eBay has some interesting books at
interesting prices, providing you are prepared to pay transatlantic
postage.

Cheers

Barry Bennett

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Ferko" <destron@...> wrote:

Is there a list somewhere that gives the class designations for

freight

cars for each series of running numbers of the ATSF, UP and the B&O?

Terry Metcalfe's book "Union Pacific Freight Cars: 1936-51" has this
information for the U.P. roster as of October 1951. I can send you an
Excel file version, if you want it.

Larry Ostresh
Laramie, Wyoming

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Ferko" <destron@...> wrote:

<snip>

Also: what other roads used such a system of in-house classification

for

cars?

SAL and ACL both had freight-car classes, though Seaboard was a tad
casual about them. Some cars didn't have classes (e.g. the GF&A
boxcars); most of the boxcars re-built to stock cars were re-classified
but IIRC at least one wasn't.

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.

Ed Mines queried:


What do you guys use as debris in your models?

Scrap stripwood, simulating blocking, and some fine sand from the street outside. Glued in with
diluted white glue. As yet, the rain hasn't loosened up the glue . . .8^)

SGL