Date   

Re: DS/SS split 1945 ATSF help needed

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Oct 11, 2007, at 2:47 PM, laramielarry wrote:

There are over 300 cars in 1945 whose sheathing is
currently "Unknown", with most of them in the following series:

Road, AAR, Kind, Series, IL, IH, Door, Capy, Qty 1945, Qty 1950
ATSF, XAP, Auto, 6330-6347, 50'6", 12'4", 14'6", 66000, 15, NA
Class Fe-13, rebuilt as steel sheathed cars in 1937, modified during WW
II with extended roofs for aircraft and auto parts service.

ATSF, XAP, Auto, 6350-6378, 40'6", 12'4", 12'6", 80000, 26, NA
Class Fe-15, rebuilt as steel sheathed cars in 1937, modified during WW
II with extended roofs for aircraft and auto parts service.

ATSF, XAP, Auto, 6450-6460, 50'6", 12'4", 14'6", 71000, 12, NA
ATSF, XAP, Auto, 6550-6569, 50'6", 10'10", 14'6", 76000, 20, NA
Both Class Fe-13, see above.

ATSF, XAP, Auto, 8101-8160, 50'6", 10'5", 14'6", 80000, 55, 2
Class Fe-9, rebuilt as steel sheathed cars in 1936.

ATSF, XA, Auto, 8161-8259, 50'6", 10'5", 14'6", 80000, 98, 11
Class Fe-11, rebuilt as steel sheathed cars in 1936.

ATSF, XA, Auto, 9422-9887, 40'6", 10'0", 10'1", 80000, 26, 9
Class Fe-L, built by AC&F in 1909 as double wood sheathed automobile
box cars and never rebuilt; the few remaining cars in this class were
retired soon after WW II ended.

ATSF, XA, Auto, 62846-62946, 40'6", 10'0", 12'6", 80000, 11, NA
Also class Fe-L, see above, but equipped with 12'6" double doors.

ATSF, XM, Box, 261551-262571, 40'6", 10'0", 6'0", 80000, 17, 4
Class Bx-19 and Bx-20, converted to box cars from wood-sheathed auto
cars of class Fe-N and Fe-O and renumbered by adding "2" to the
original numbers.

I think the following series is DS, based on a Charles Winters photo
of 62723 posted on the NEB&W site. However, Folio 211 on the Santa
Fe Railway Historical and Modeling Society web site lists part of
this series (62000-62049) as class Fe-25, which is steel sheathed
(and 50' !?!):

ATSF, XA, Auto, 61510-62750, 40'6", 10'0", 10'1", 80000, 63, 24
Surviving cars of Classes Fe-N and Fe-O, these were wood sheathed auto
cars built by AC&F in 1914 to essentially the same design as Class
Fe-L. All of these cars had massive steel underframes with four
fishbelly sills; most were rebuilt during the 1930s into steel sheathed
cars of classes Fe-5, Fe-12, Fe-15, and Fe-19. The few that weren't
rebuilt were rapidly retired after WW II, freeing up the number series
for the postwar renumbering of some Class Fe-25 50' steel double door
auto cars; these had been rebuilt as steel sheathed cars in 1942 using
the underframes and ends of Fe-Q class sectional wood sheathed auto
cars originally built in 1924.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: More with freight car classes

Jeff English
 

Just to clarify, NYC's system of identifying freight cars by lot
number was not, strictly speaking, a classification system. There
are many examples of identical cars with different lot numbers
(because they were built in separate lots; what a concept!), and the
matter of rebuilds complicates things quite a bit. Some
substantially rebuilt cars retained their original lot number, while
other rebuild programs assigned a new lot number to the resultant
outshopped cars.

Jeff English
Troy, New York

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Ferko" <destron@...> wrote:


So I've done a bit of 'quick' research, and have started putting
together a list of roads using in-house freight car classification
systems.

Following is the list of the RRs I've found classification systems
for. Just wondering if anyone could add to this?

These I've found have/had them for certain: B&O, NYC etc, NC&StL,
NS,
N&W, RDG, CB&Q etc, PRR, VGN, ATSF etc, UP etc, SP etc, SAL, ACL
etc,
Clinchfield.

I'm not certain on whether SLSF, C&O or WM used them; I've found
mentions here and there suggesting it, but no other evidence (yet,
anyways). Anyone know for sure either way?

Thanks,

Frank Valoczy
Vancouver, NC


Re: More with freight car classes

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Oct 11, 2007, at 2:14 PM, Ferko wrote:

I'm not certain on whether SLSF, C&O or WM used them; I've found
mentions here and there suggesting it, but no other evidence (yet,
anyways). Anyone know for sure either way?
In the 1950s SL-SF freight car diagram book I have, there is no
reference to a system of car class symbols. The word CLASS: appears
on each diagram, but what follows it is actually a brief description of
the cars, e.g., "gondola cars with wood sides and steel side doors."

C&O Had a classification system which was used in the 1920s and early
'30s. It was alpha-numeric, with a letter that indicated the car type,
a number that denoted the nominal capacity, a dash, and then one or two
numbers identifying the particular car series of that type. For
example, the 87000-87499 series forty ton ventilated box cars built by
PSC in 1929 were class V4-2; the 68000-68499 series seventy ton quad
hoppers built by Richmond and AC&F in 1928 were class H7-10. Prior to
1935, these class symbols were stenciled on the cars, but the system
was abandoned in that year.

The Western Maryland had a car classification system in effect from the
turn of the century through the 1960s, as documented in Oertly &
McFall's book on WM box cars and refrigerator cars published by the WM
historical society. Initially it used the AAR class symbols to
designate car type followed by a dash and a number denoting the number
series, e.g. XM-2, FM-1. This was soon changed, however, to an
alphanumeric system with a single letter for the car type, then a dash,
then a number, e.g. B-5, the 27501-28000 series built by PSC in 1939;
G-1, the 5500-50649 series 61' mill gondolas built by Bethlehem in
1928; and F-20, the 53'6" AAR 50 ton flat car built by AC&F in 1943.
This system was used primarily in-house and the class symbols were not
stenciled on the cars until the 1960s.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: More with freight car classes

S. Busch
 

Frank Valoczy asked whether SLSF, C&O or WM used freight car classification systems. I can't speak about the SLSF or WM, but according to Carl Shaver's book "Freight Car Equiptment of the C&O Rwy. August 1, 1937", the C&O used a classification system for only a short time, from about 1926 through about 1934. After that, cars were referenced by their AAR designation and capacity.

Regards -
Steve Busch
Duncan, SC


DS/SS split 1945 ATSF help needed

laramielarry <ostresh@...>
 

Hi Folks

Here are the DS/SS/Steel splits, 1945 and 1950, for box and auto cars
in interchange service on the ATSF.

January 1945:
ATSF_____%____Number
DS_____17.1%____6,022
SS_____21.7%____7,649
Steel_____45.9%____16,209
Other_____14.4%____5,089
Known_____99.1%____34,969
Unknown_____0.9%____308
Total_____100.0%____35,277

July 1950:
ATSF_____%____Number
DS_____1.2%____432
SS_____21.7%____7,549
Steel_____69.0%____24,024
Other_____7.9%____2,754
Known_____99.8%____34,759
Unknown_____0.2%____68
Total_____100.0%____34,827

These tables exclude DS cars in the series 40000-40024, class Bx-25,
which the ORER describes as "Brick", on the assumption that they are
not in interchange service.

The ATSF retired over 90% of its double sheathed cars, and an even
100 of its single sheathed. It nearly halved its "panel" fleet, but
increased its steel cars by almost 50%. Overall, it had a minor
decline.

There are over 300 cars in 1945 whose sheathing is
currently "Unknown", with most of them in the following series:

Road, AAR, Kind, Series, IL, IH, Door, Capy, Qty 1945, Qty 1950
ATSF, XAP, Auto, 6330-6347, 50'6", 12'4", 14'6", 66000, 15, NA
ATSF, XAP, Auto, 6350-6378, 40'6", 12'4", 12'6", 80000, 26, NA
ATSF, XAP, Auto, 6450-6460, 50'6", 12'4", 14'6", 71000, 12, NA
ATSF, XAP, Auto, 6550-6569, 50'6", 10'10", 14'6", 76000, 20, NA
ATSF, XAP, Auto, 8101-8160, 50'6", 10'5", 14'6", 80000, 55, 2
ATSF, XA, Auto, 8161-8259, 50'6", 10'5", 14'6", 80000, 98, 11
ATSF, XA, Auto, 9422-9887, 40'6", 10'0", 10'1", 80000, 26, 9
ATSF, XA, Auto, 62846-62946, 40'6", 10'0", 12'6", 80000, 11, NA
ATSF, XM, Box, 261551-262571, 40'6", 10'0", 6'0", 80000, 17, 4

I think the following series is DS, based on a Charles Winters photo
of 62723 posted on the NEB&W site. However, Folio 211 on the Santa
Fe Railway Historical and Modeling Society web site lists part of
this series (62000-62049) as class Fe-25, which is steel sheathed
(and 50' !?!):

ATSF, XA, Auto, 61510-62750, 40'6", 10'0", 10'1", 80000, 63, 24

If anyone could inform me about the sheathing type
(DS/SS/Steel/rebuild/panel) and build or rebuild date for above
series, I would greatly appreciate it.

Best wishes,
Larry Ostresh
Laramie, Wyoming


More with freight car classes

Ferko <destron@...>
 

So I've done a bit of 'quick' research, and have started putting
together a list of roads using in-house freight car classification
systems.

Following is the list of the RRs I've found classification systems
for. Just wondering if anyone could add to this?

These I've found have/had them for certain: B&O, NYC etc, NC&StL, NS,
N&W, RDG, CB&Q etc, PRR, VGN, ATSF etc, UP etc, SP etc, SAL, ACL etc,
Clinchfield.

I'm not certain on whether SLSF, C&O or WM used them; I've found
mentions here and there suggesting it, but no other evidence (yet,
anyways). Anyone know for sure either way?

Thanks,

Frank Valoczy
Vancouver, NC


Re: gondola interiors

cj riley <cjriley42@...>
 

When I worked in the fabricating shops of Levinson Steel (Pittsburgh) one
summer in the '60s, There was considerable crap in every car I helped to load.
I have also seen high angle photos of open cars in earlier eras that were also
quite dirty, That is the basis of my modeling.

CJ Riley


--- Ted Schnepf <railsunl@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

Hi everyone,

I honestly believe this gondola dirty floor subject is being
overdone. In scrap yard service it is true with magnet loading and
unloading dirt does build up on the floor.

In the classic era, gons in coal, aggregate and mineral service would
be cleaned before loading, as the shipper did not want his product
contaminated. All railroads had cleaning tracks for such work. Many
coal mines cleaned cars on the empty side of the mine prior to
loading. Also many gons at the receiving end were cleaned by laborers
with shovels before release.

Ted

At 09:42 PM 10/9/2007, you wrote:

ED,

I have put debris in most of my gons. Dirt, weeds, rust scraps, a few ferns,
left over wood blocking. Almost anything could be in there, Standard scenery
techniques were used.

CJ Riley





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Re: Photo etch details for FGE/WFE/BRE Plywood wartime built reefers

Tim O'Connor
 

Those brackets are excellent!! I hope there are extras in the box.... :-)

http://f9g.yahoofs.com/groups/g_hr_2554753/9bc5/__hr_/ae23.jpg?grgwrDHB9k2qszec

Tim O'

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "rockroll50401" <cepropst@netconx.net>
Bill, All your fine detail work makes that handbrake look like it came
off an old blue box Athearn car. Very nice stuff!
Clark Propst


Re: Photo etch details for FGE/WFE/BRE Plywood wartime built reefers

rockroll50401 <cepropst@...>
 

Bill, All your fine detail work makes that handbrake look like it came
off an old blue box Athearn car. Very nice stuff!
Clark Propst


Photo etch details for FGE/WFE/BRE Plywood wartime built reefers

lnbill <bwelch@...>
 

With the aid of Mike Brock. I have posted photos showing the photoetch
details that will come with the Sunshine Models plywood and T&G
reefers built by FGE/WFE/BRE in 1942 and 1944. These are in the photo
section under "Bill Welch Reefer Details." I notice the "fan shaft
surround plate" photo is missing but both square and round plates are
included.

Templates are included to make locating the holes to be drilled for
the bracket grab bases, fan shaft surround plate, and door hinges a
snap. Folding the bracket grab parts takes care and a good pair of
very small pliers, but as you can see does produce a nice effect IMO.
The ladders are photo etched and have slots in them to make folding
the edges easier. I used styrene to fill these voids. I am sure people
will complain about this but in working with the person who helped me
engineer these felt it was a necessary compremise. The ladders
literally snap into place on the mounting points on the sides and ends.

This is the first kits I designed/engineered and created patterns for
from start to finish. I love the protoypes with their 3' 2" bracket
grabs.

The photoetch does add to the expense of the kit but I think you will
like the end result. These will be on sale at Naperville.

Bill Welch


Re: My New Compressor

lnbill <bwelch@...>
 

Tim it is oiless and I remain happy. I must admit I just recently
painted for the first itm in months, as I have had several models in
process for quite awhile. I like the built in gauges.

Bill Welch

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "cf5250" <timboconnor@...> wrote:

Bill Welch wrote (a while back)

I received my new compressor last week and I am very pleased. It
is a
Campbell-Hausfeld Model # FP2040. Here is the link, I hope it
works!
http://aircompressorsdirect.com/catalog/product_info.php?
cPath=3_180_26&products_id=119

============================================================

Bill, I'm looking for a new compressor. This one looks good.
Two questions -- How is it holding up? And is it oil-less? The
web site doesn't indicate if it uses oil or not.

Thanks
Tim O'Connor


Help in identifing boxcars

jim peters
 

Gentlemen,

I'm seeking a little assistance in identifying a group of boxcars. 1800 were built in total, from what I can tell in the mid 1920's. Knowing the railway they were built for, most likely in groups of 300 to 500 per order and probably from 2 or 3 different builders.

Basic specs:
- 10-panel riveted sides
- 5/3 Dreadnaught style ends
- Ajax brake gear
- Radial roof (style or type?)
- With what appeared at first glance to be a standard (AAR type) straight side sills. Closer examination proved different.
- USRA frame and KC brake system
- delivered with Andrews trucks
- 3-panel door (and not the reversed style we discussed a few weeks ago). Some of the higher number cars had early Youngstown style doors.
- The ORER states 40'-7" IL, 8'-6" IW, 9'-0" IH with 3105 cu.ft and 80,000 lb capacity.
- NdeM 48301-50100 (in early 60's some were renumbered to 95000 series).

Refer to photo at . . . http://tinyurl.com/yutu34 . . . scroll to bottom of 1st page to NdeM 48600

At first I thought I could use the CP Mini Boxcar as a starting point for a model . . . but studying the sills closer . . . I don't think the Minibox will work . . . ANY SUGGESTIONS.

Additional photos may be viewed at . . .
http://mexicanboxcar.tripod.com/mexicanboxcars/id9.html
http://mexicanboxcar.tripod.com/mexicanboxcars/id44.html
. . . the 2nd reference is a 4 photo group.

I would be interested in knowing the builders, dates and any history on the design that might be available. I thought the design could be Santa Fe in origin, but lack the information to follow that thought through.

I thank you for any assistance,

Jim Peters
Coquitlam, BC
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Re: Caswell gons in sulphur service?

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Oct 9, 2007, at 2:31 PM, Bob Lucas wrote:

Were Caswell GS gondolas utilized by the Sante Fe for raw sulphur
traffic? See mention of another ATSF class (Ga-13 and Ga-19) cars
designated as "sulphur gondolas". What is a "sulphur gondola"? If the
Caswell design cars did handle sulphur, what was the nature of that
traffic? Bob
Caswell gons may have been used for sulphur service on an emergency
basis but never routinely. Bulk sulphur was extremely hard on the
metal components of the cars in which it was shipped because sulphur
dust combined with moisture produced an acid that rapidly corroded
steel and would penetrate the joints where steel parts were bolted or
riveted together. For that reason, the Santa Fe (and Southern
Pacific/T&NO) sulphur gons that were designed for the purpose in the
1920s and used in dedicated service had wood side sheathing and one
piece cast steel underframes with integral side stakes. They were
among the earliest freight cars with cast steel underframes.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Naperville 2008

tmolsen@...
 

List,

The only thing that may change is if the sale of the hotel goes through. Another firm has been working with the present owners of the hotel to purchase it. The City of Naperville wants to work with the new owners to expand the hotel and make it a convention center. The hotel would probably not be a Holiday Inn.

Tricia told me earlier this year that the purchase would not finalize until sometime in November, so they would be back this year. After the change of ownership, well, they would have to see what happens. It would probably mean another location in the area in following years if necessary, depending on price and available space.

I can't see the new owners not wanting to work with Sunshine considering the amount of business that the Seminar brings in.

Regards,

Tom Olsen
7 Boundary Road, West Branch
Newark, Delaware, 19711-7479
(302) 738-4292
tmolsen@udel.edu


Re: The Seaboard-Coast Line Modeler #2

gerard_fitzgerald
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "gerard_fitzgerald" <gjf239@...> wrote:
I have been at my desk too long and I apologize for that last message.

GJF


I sent the announcement of our latest creation to the LDSIG list. I
would be willing to take a crack at that steam engine if no one else
wants to

Gerry

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, John Golden <golden1014@> wrote:

Gentlemen,

The latest issue of the ACL & SAL Historical Society's
"Seaboard-Coast Line Modeler" is now available for
download. Go to the society's home page and you can
download it there or view it online. Here's the link:
http://www.aclsal.org/.

We're hoping to get #3 out by Jan 1st, just before the
Cocoa Beach RPM.

John

John Golden
Bloomington, IN


Re: The Seaboard-Coast Line Modeler #2

gerard_fitzgerald
 

I sent the announcement of our latest creation to the LDSIG list. I
would be willing to take a crack at that steam engine if no one else
wants to

Gerry

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, John Golden <golden1014@...> wrote:

Gentlemen,

The latest issue of the ACL & SAL Historical Society's
"Seaboard-Coast Line Modeler" is now available for
download. Go to the society's home page and you can
download it there or view it online. Here's the link:
http://www.aclsal.org/.

We're hoping to get #3 out by Jan 1st, just before the
Cocoa Beach RPM.

John

John Golden
Bloomington, IN


The Seaboard-Coast Line Modeler #2

golden1014
 

Gentlemen,

The latest issue of the ACL & SAL Historical Society's
"Seaboard-Coast Line Modeler" is now available for
download. Go to the society's home page and you can
download it there or view it online. Here's the link:
http://www.aclsal.org/.

We're hoping to get #3 out by Jan 1st, just before the
Cocoa Beach RPM.

John

John Golden
Bloomington, IN


Re: WWII box car interchange rules

Guy Wilber
 

Ed wrote:

Temporary interchange rules for box cars were adapted during WWII
because of shortages caused by the war.

I believe you are confusing the Interchange Rules with the Car Service
Rules. Scores of orders governing the use of freight equipment were issued during
and after the war. Most dealt with the utilization of house cars though
there were plenty issued governing the use of hoppers, gons, flats and tanks as
well.

Interchange Rules 1 and 2 were modified during WWII to accommodate the Car
Service Orders. Due to severe car shortages it was deemed more important to
make repairs (usually done by owners) on visiting cars rather than card them
for home. The same "emergency" was reinstated on January 1, 1947 and
continued until April of 1947.

These temporary rules were extended for several years after the war.
Exactly when were the old rules restored?
Many ODT orders continued into 1948 along with those issued by the ICC and
the AAR.

Were any PS1 box cars in service when these temporary rules were in
force?
Not just after WWII, but indeed during the Korean "Emergency" when many
orders were again issued regarding the utilization of box cars and reefers.

Regards,

Guy Wilber
West Bend, WI





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Re: Freight car classes

David Soderblom
 

Mr. Valoczy et al.:

I have a database for feight car classes you may find useful. I put it together several years ago in an effort to be able to correlate published or available photos with classes so I could know when I was looking at a photo that would be of use for a particular project. The DB is in Filemaker Pro, but I can write it as an Excel file as well. Those interested may contact me off-list and I will be pleased to provide it. Please do not ask for something other than the two formats just listed; there's a limit.

In this vein, I would appreciate getting specific information on car classes for roads I am missing, which includes CB&Q and Seaboard, among others. BTW, the DB is specific to January, 1953, using the NMRA reprint of the ORER as a basis. It includes NYC, PRR, SP, UP, some CB&Q, ATSF, B&O, ...

David Soderblom
Baltimore MD
drs@stsci.edu


Re: gondola interiors

Guy Wilber
 

Ed wrote:

Were gondola interiors ever cleaned? I think debris would accumulate
for many years before it was discarded.
Dunnage utilized in loading all types of open top loads would most certainly
have been removed in order to prepare the next out bound load. No doubt
scraps were scattered about and left, but the majority of larger pieces would
have to be removed in order for loads to be set correctly and blocked for
interchange.

Has anyone ever seen a puddle in a gon or a picture of a gon? There are no
holes for drainage.
Though solid steel floor cars may not have been built with and sort of drain
holes you can be sure that shortly into service they were riddled with holes
utilized to secure loads. Torch cut holes in gon floors and sides was
permitted (within reason), though the AAR's Arbitration Committee eventually put
limits on the size of the holes. They were supposed to be less than an inch
and a half but it's a sure bet that was ignored more than followed. By 1947
the Car Construction Committee approved drawings for tie down clips to be
welded to car exteriors to help alleviate some of the hole cutting problems. The
layout for the clips coupled with holes (1 1/16") bored into the top bulb
and "Z" sections was adopted as a "recommended" practice in 1947 followed by an
"alternate" design adopted in 1952.

In the era when most exposed steel rusted I can understand why some
railroads would order wood floors.
The choice had little to do with rust. Wood floors offered shippers an easy
way to secure dunnage. Later came combination steel and wood floors
followed by complete installations of "nailable" steel floors.

Were steel bands used in the steam era?
Steel banding products were patented by a number of manufacturers beginning
in the late 'teens. By the mid 1930s many AAR Open Top Loading Diagrams were
listing steel bands as an "alternative" to high tension or "annealed" wire
stranding. Both the steel and lumber industry were actively involved with the
AAR's Loading Committee. Prior to, and during WWII most of the loading
rules for both industries were revamped completely to utilize steel banding.
Rule 6 for lumber loads secured with steel banding was adopted in 1940.

Kind Regards,

Guy Wilber
West Bend, WI





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