At 22:15 10/21/2007, Anthony Thompson wrote:

Richard Brennan wrote:

Similarly, the Southern Pacific used:
and "W" for ??? (I haven't found the answer for this one...

"Work" perhaps?)

Yes, it was "work."

So how did "W" differ from SPMW / SSWMW...?
Was "W" used concurrently with the MW designation?

Sources/References on this?

Thanks...


--------------------
Richard Brennan - San Leandro CA
--------------------

Richard Brennan wrote:

Similarly, the Southern Pacific used:
and "W" for ??? (I haven't found the answer for this one... "Work" perhaps?)

Yes, it was "work."

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Bob Chaparro wrote:

The image link below to the Southern Pacific box car (SP 133000, an XM car) shows this car appears to have high speed trucks. Anyone know the background on this car or series of cars?

Tim has already answered this concisely and correctly. But Bob, all the information is in the Box Car volume I did on SP cars. Just look in the appropriate renumbering table.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Scott Pitzer wrote:

According to "Northern New England Color Guide," some second-hand PFE cars went to BAR in the mid-60s (beyond the era of this list.) Pages 19-20... some R-40-10, some R-40-14 apparently.

That may be what's in that book, Scott, but I saw no indication of it in the PFE correspondence throughout the 1960s. Doesn't mean it didn't happen, especially if the cars passed through a broker as intermediate.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

--- In STMFC@..., "Jack Burgess" <jack@...> wrote:

All...
I think that I have finished my fall house-cleaning of the layout

and shop,

putting on eBay the last built and unbuilt resin cars which are

generally

inappropriate for my western-based shortline. I have two built-up Dennis
Storzek kits on eBay, one a Soo Line SS box car and the other a

Rutland DS

box car...

Aw... I'm being evicted. (sniff)

Dennis

All...
I think that I have finished my fall house-cleaning of the layout and shop,
putting on eBay the last built and unbuilt resin cars which are generally
inappropriate for my western-based shortline. I have two built-up Dennis
Storzek kits on eBay, one a Soo Line SS box car and the other a Rutland DS
box car. I also have an unbuilt Sunshine Erie box car kit (#18.1) with the
unusual Buckeye ends and Viking roof. All can be found by searching for the
seller id of "yvrr".

Jack Burgess
www.yosemitevalleyrr.com

Railroad Prototype Modelers Valley Forge 2008

Sponsored by Philadelphia Division, MER, NMRA
March 28-30, 2008
at the
Desmond Great Valley Hotel & Conference Center
Malvern, PA (same great location as 2004 and 2006)

• Clinics
• Model Displays
• Vendors' Room
• Home Layout Tour (Sunday)

FOR ADDITIONAL INFORMATION AND UPDATES
www.phillynmra.org/rpmmeet.html

OR
Paul Backenstose
103 West Uwchlan Avenue
Downingtown PA 19335
(Please include an SSAE for a reply)
prrpaul@... or (610) 269-2763

INTERESTED IN PRESENTING A CLINIC?
Jim Dalberg
610-648-0089 or jedalberg@...

VENDOR INFORMATION
Steve Salotti
610-489-1940 or Jmsfca@...

Paul Backenstose

--- In STMFC@..., "Stan Jones" <sjones1@...> wrote:

From what I have seen empty cars were not accompanied by a waybill,
but by a card form. Maine Central called them Card Manifest for Empty
Car. The ones I have copies of come in a pad of 8 1/2 by 5 1/4 card
stock and contain all (most?) of the details on the routing of the car
to its home point.

I have uploaded to the file section a copy of an Illinois Central Empty
Car Bill. It is dated possibly a year or two after the cut off for
this group, but is most likely close to what was in use during the time.

George Simmons
Dry Prong, LA

Fridge magnets are polarized in alternating strips so as to result in a
strong field on one side and a minimal field on the other. You can
demonstrate the striped nature by placing two magnets witht he fridge
(non-message) side face-to-face (they will attract), then slide one across
the other. In one combination of directions, you will feel a stuttering
slip, any other combination of directions will slip smoothly. The
stuttering happens when both sets of strips are perpendicular to the
movement direction and parallel to each other. The alternating attraction
and repulsion of pairs of like and unlike strips causes the sensation of
alternating sticking and slipping. I don't know whether Mr. Davis uses this
property intentionally or not but even random punches are likely to have at
least two strips in them and they will attract each other.

Dave Smith

--
David L. Smith
Da Vinci Science Center
Allentown, PA
http://www.davinci-center.org

John Hitzeman wrote:

One of the most remarkable things I've seen is what Dave Davis
has done. He made a little punch in the form of a glad hand and
punches them from thin kitchen magnets. Then he uses the
no-sag thread from Walthers High Tension Tower kits to make
the hose. With the magnet on one end, and the other end of the
hose ACC'd to the angle cock, the hose hangs down at
Denny's prototype angle. But, when the cars are being coupled,
the magnets attract each other and, as if by magic, the
hoses couple by themselves, yielding a prototype appearance
as the train passes by.

Not to be picky, John, over what appears to be a brilliant technique,
but wouldn't there be, at best, a 50:50 chance that the magnets would
repel each other? Those thin magnets are polarized across the faces,
so glad hand-shaped discs punched from them would be as well. If the
discs can be attached to the Walthers thread facing either way, you
get your 50:50 chance. If they can only be attached one way, they
would always repel. Or am I missing something???

Tom Madden

John,
I have not model a scale house setup, but I have seen it done before.
The modeler had used a postal scale kind of like a diet scale (sorry for the dirty 4 letter word). The scale was mounted in a cut out under the layout, He could roll or push a car on to the track and weight the car. there was an adjuster know to use to keep the track level with rest of the track. The last time I saw the layout, he was planning to change it to a digital scale with the readout face inside the scale house. This way the scale did not have to be on the front edge of the layout. I think that there has been articles in either MR or MRC about doing a working scale house. I know that this part of the operation became very time consuming and end up being used only on special operating nights. He also had a test car that he had weighed at the Post Office, they gave him the weight slip which he mounted on the wall. The scale was the calibrated to the test car. Since the cars never really change in weight, he had a cheat sheet which listed each car with a weight for
different loads to be used for the records for the train. On nights when there were enough people to run trains, it was fun, somebody got the job of Scale House Master and that all they would do, weigh the cars and paper work. After the train was assembled the Road Master had to provide enough locomotive with the proper traction effert and horsepower to pull it.

John Frantz <prropcrew@...> wrote:
Listers,

First off, this will be my first post. I joined this past week. Over the past two years I've narrowed down my modeling to a very specific area and era to the point I've been Ebaying what doesn't fit, and check build dates on cars. So my stats? I'm planning on modeling the PRR's Northern Central in the 1940's between York and New Freedom, and if room would permit, go as far North as York Haven and as far south as Blue Mount/White Hall, MD. The biggest steam engine allowed on the line due to curves was an L1s 2-8-2, though ironically the Centipedes ran on it when they were in passenger service. This is my ultimate goal, at this point I still live at home and i'm the ripe old age of 23. In addition to the PRR I really like the Wild Mary, Ma & PA and most other Eastern Roads.

So, now that that's out of the way. I was wondering if anybody has really pushed the envelope in modeling/operations when it comes to track scales/scale cars. Unfortunatey right now there are no scale car models out there, the Walthers still floats around but is only "eh" in my opinion. The Stewart Products kits can be found occasionally, and are the best, second only to the Hallmark and Overland renditions.

I'm wondering if naybody has modeled a scale car, and if so, with a scale house has used in model railroad operations for "checking" scales. Additionally, does anyone use a track scale as a fully-integrated part of operating and had cars "weighed" as part of the movement on a layout.

Any responses would be appreciated. Right now I'm working on some scale house modeling projects and was curious to see what others have done.

Thanks for any responses.

Best Regards,
John

York, PA

York, PA
Crossroads of the Pennsylvania Railroad, Maryland & Pennsylvania and Western Maryland Railroads.







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I think they were generic even though they had several paint schemes.
http://atsfrr.net/resources/Sandifer/Clinics/Stk/Mod/MainLine.htm

______________
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Home: 12027 Mulholland Drive, Meadows Place, TX 77477, 281-568-9918
Office: Southwest Central Church of Christ, 4011 W. Bellfort, Houston, TX 77025, 713-667-9417

Listers,

First off, this will be my first post. I joined this past week. Over the past two years I've narrowed down my modeling to a very specific area and era to the point I've been Ebaying what doesn't fit, and check build dates on cars. So my stats? I'm planning on modeling the PRR's Northern Central in the 1940's between York and New Freedom, and if room would permit, go as far North as York Haven and as far south as Blue Mount/White Hall, MD. The biggest steam engine allowed on the line due to curves was an L1s 2-8-2, though ironically the Centipedes ran on it when they were in passenger service. This is my ultimate goal, at this point I still live at home and i'm the ripe old age of 23. In addition to the PRR I really like the Wild Mary, Ma & PA and most other Eastern Roads.


So, now that that's out of the way. I was wondering if anybody has really pushed the envelope in modeling/operations when it comes to track scales/scale cars. Unfortunatey right now there are no scale car models out there, the Walthers still floats around but is only "eh" in my opinion. The Stewart Products kits can be found occasionally, and are the best, second only to the Hallmark and Overland renditions.

I'm wondering if naybody has modeled a scale car, and if so, with a scale house has used in model railroad operations for "checking" scales. Additionally, does anyone use a track scale as a fully-integrated part of operating and had cars "weighed" as part of the movement on a layout.

Any responses would be appreciated. Right now I'm working on some scale house modeling projects and was curious to see what others have done.

Thanks for any responses.

Best Regards,
John

York, PA


York, PA
Crossroads of the Pennsylvania Railroad, Maryland & Pennsylvania and Western Maryland Railroads.

Doc,

I think you already have the answer to your quest in sight. You've
established a working relationship with Precision Scale Co. PSC will
quote custom casting from your patterns, or have patterns made to your
specs.

The most common style bracket I can think of is a piece of flat bar
stock with a bend at each end. One end has a pair of rivets that
attach it to the bottom of the car end, the other end has a pair of
nuts that hold the U bolt that captures the angle cock body on the
prototype. Should be a pretty simple pattern. I think I'd leave the U
bolt off and just rely on solder to hold the hose, or perhaps include
it to hold the acetal DA hoses, but the U bolt will have to be
oversize; I don't think they can cast .006" diameter sections in
brass. On the other end I'd add a BIG A$$ (that's a technical term,
folks) mounting pin, maybe .025" or .030" diameter and about .100"
long that can be glued into a hole drilled in the end of the car. The
pins would be the connection to the casting "tree" similar to NBW
castings.

The pattern needs to be brass, but you should only need one. They'll
replicate it numerous times via spin casting to produce the master for
a little tree, then make a rubber mold of the master tree to produce
the waxes for the production trees. Contract for a run, and your
problem is solved. Give them the rights to the pattern, and perhaps
they'll put it in their line and our problem will be solved, too.

Dennis

Jack Burgess responds to the problem of the fine
PSC brass brake hoses occasionally snapping off
at the valve during bending-

I wonder if anealing them first might help....?

I have been wondering the very same thing.
Perhaps Tony T. can comment when he returns from
out of town today or tomorrow.

Prior to Jack Burgess' comments, I also did not
know about the proper 30º clockwise rotation of
the valve. This alone would distinctly help in
the proper orientation of the hoses, but it also
poses an additional bend unless one could get
away by mounting the particular bracket on the carbody at 30º. (Naw-w-w).

We all separately get pretty picky (read:
compulsive/obsessive) about particular parts of
our prototype freight car modeling, and mine is
increasingly how the cars look from the ends
(thin wheels, scale couplers, scale width coupler
boxes, hoses, coupler bars, etc.) while other
parts that respected others consider equally
essential go begging! However, I consider this
particular issue as a blow toward the logical end
of how these fine cars can then also be added up
to make a TRAIN, certainly a goal in our hobby,
and the appearance of which, in toto and in part,
is indeed also worthy of the real thing.

Denny

--
Denny S. Anspach, MD
Sacramento

Following this thread with interest,?I'm just as hung up on the
subject(s) of air hoses and cut bars/levers as Denny and Jack.

I've been using (gasp) Detail Associates air hoses for quite
some time. Being that they are made from "engineering plastic",
I've found that holding a soldering iron close to the hose allows
for bending it slightly to?match?a more prototype appearance.

Of course, one can heat them too much, making them look like
a little black worm with an angle cock. <G>

As far as the mounting of the hoses at 30 degrees, I go along
with that. But, when I was a Special Agent (RR Police) with the
pre-merger Frisco, I used to do a lot of study of the finer details
when possible. I didn't take very many photos of stuff, as my
position with the company would cause the crews to get worked
up if they saw a special agent walking around taking pictures.

Back to the subject at hand --- many cars that I saw, after some
time in use, were amazing in that the cut levers/bars and hose
brackets were pretty much "all over the place".

There were so many "jury rigged" contraptions and bailing wire
and spit fabrications holding this stuff together.

Usually, IIRC, the hose brackets were pretty "floppy". and many
times the angle cock had been turned around a little, here and there,
that uniformity was the exception rather than the rule.

I made friends with a number of the car knockers, a couple of
them were covert model railroaders, and we would discuss
these matters. <G>

I recall one tri-level auto rack and its "trombone slide"
cut lever. You wouldn't believe, and I wish I had a photo, how
this thing had been patched back together, several times, with
a couple of pieces of angle and bar/strap stock and a whole lot
of creative welding.?

It barely would move and it looked as if, when given a good tug,
it would fall off yet again. But, it headed off to Rose Lake from
Ewing Ave., yard in the next cut out, with my car man friend
shaking his head.

No "Bad Order" on that type of stuff, just let it go to the next
carrier and hope it falls off on foreign track.

Back to modeling. One thing that bugs me is that most HO
air hoses have the angle cock turned "open". I've tried slicing
the handle off the HO hoses and re-applying them in the
closed position, especially on passenger cars that I know
I'll want on the end of a train, ATSF Rider Cars specifically.

One of the most remarkable things I've seen is what Dave Davis
has done. He made a little punch in the form of a glad hand and
punches them from thin kitchen magnets. Then he uses the
no-sag thread from Walthers High Tension Tower kits to make
the hose. With the magnet on one end, and the other end of the
hose ACC'd to the angle cock, the hose hangs down at
Denny's prototype angle. But, when the cars are being coupled,
the magnets attract each other and, as if by magic, the
hoses couple by themselves, yielding a prototype appearance
as the train passes by.

Finally, I've drawn and laser cut a little air hose bracket I use
on my freight cars. The hole in it is sized to accept the DA
hose casting, even with the misalignment in the casting caused
by die slippage. It's just a little tab (.0156" thick) that glues to
the back of the end sill and holds the hose pipe in place.

This eliminates the necessity of other types of brackets, or the
big glob of glue needed to hold them in place.

It's simple and unobtrusive. It follows the philosophy of,
if you can't render it properly in scale, then it's best to
leave it off so it doesn't attract negative attention. <G>

I could go on, and on, with this but I have to get working.

John


John Hitzeman
President/Owner
American Model Builders, Inc.
Our 25th Year!!
LASERkit (tm)
www.rgspemkt.com
www.ambstlouis.net
www.laserkit.com



________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com

--- In STMFC@..., Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...> wrote:

Posted by: "Russ Strodtz" I'd like to make a few commnets on

Russ's post based on my recollections from the 60's when I was
involved with car distribution.

===================

> Rob, The flat statement was made that these cars were sent

loaded or empty

back to Canada. I responded that that was not always the case and if
it was some kind of rule how was it implemented or enforced.

........

In my experience, use of waybills for empty general service cars

was the exception on most railroads. Usually such cars were moved in
accordance with car distribution orders on each railroad. There were
general CD orders that said what to do with each kind of empty, by
type and subtype and marks. The order might say to home route all
surplus cars of a type or a group of marks. The only time a memo bill
would be needed would be for an indirect connection car moving on
record rights to indicate the off-line juntion for that car. BTW,
suhc bills were not waybills in the legal sense, except for special
equipment governed by CSD's. We called the memo bills. They might be
simply an IBM card or other piece of paper that would be included in a
stack of real waybills.

From what I have seen empty cars were not accompanied by a waybill,
but by a card form. Maine Central called them Card Manifest for Empty
Car. The ones I have copies of come in a pad of 8 1/2 by 5 1/4 card
stock and contain all (most?) of the details on the routing of the car
to its home point.

List,
At one time I too had these brake/air hose problems, I started using PSC
valves and the insulation of from micro bulbs (or whatever is scale
appropriate) along with PSC glad hands. Heck the insulation acts like rubber/vinyl
because it is. They don't break, they droop and are quite flexible.
Chuck Hladik
Rutland Railroad
Virginia Division



************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

Denny wrote:

Over the years, I have schizophrenic about brake hoses. If they come
with the kit, I put them on, if they do not, or are not mentioned in
the instructions (surprising how many do not even today), I may not
install them, perhaps being secretly pleased to be spared a
perceived futile chore.

I hear you there...and uncoupler bars are in the same category. However, now
that I have enough cars to operate, future builds will include both
details....<g>

Well, try replicating this appearance with the plastic hoses-
sometimes you can get there almost, but usually not even close (in
this regard, one will have an easier time with hoses alongside
couplers with excessive striker/striker distance). In
contradistinction the brass hoses can be bent to order, replicating
the normal repose of the prototype brake hose.

I had not realized until a few years ago that brake hoses/valves are to be
mounted at 30 degrees clockwise from 90 degrees until a YV
brakeman/modeler/draftsman told me that after checking some of my YV
equipment drawings (check the Builder's Cycs).

Working with the brass hoses has not been all sunshine and roses.
They are very delicate, and although they will undergo the bending
that you want (and look great!), they will also snap off at the
valve, unless you are very, very careful.

I wonder if anealing them first might help....?

Jack Burgess
www.yosemitevalleyrr.com

For me, two of the great breakthroughs in the past few years in HO prototype scale freight car/train modeling have been the introduction of and the ensuing spread of more near-scale width .088" wheels, and the introduction of scale sized couplers that are both housed in near-scale sized coupler boxes, and perhaps best of all, allowing for the first time actual scale interval-distances between coupled cars (coupled Accumate Proto and Kadee #153 couplers- either/or- allow prototype normal striker/striker distances of 29-31", the Accumate slightly better in this regard). For many of us who are busy adapting these new advances, we are at the same time also discarding the magnetic glad hands- largely for terrific out-of-scale appearance reasons discussed here in the past, and inappropriate detailing.

BUT: As we admire and perhaps salivate (not me, but others who I will not embarrass) as a really neat cut of so-equipped handsome cars rolls by (read: a really good looking TRAIN), there is something wrong: Under our new closely-coupled cars, and beneath our scale sized locked couplers is now.......nothing, nothing at all in a location where on every legitimate train we have ever observed at lineside should be- locked brake hoses. Brake hoses are small, but they are visible!

Over the years, I have schizophrenic about brake hoses. If they come with the kit, I put them on, if they do not, or are not mentioned in the instructions (surprising how many do not even today), I may not install them, perhaps being secretly pleased to be spared a perceived futile chore.

Although I started 50 years ago with coarse A-C brake hoses made of small-wire insulation, plastic hoses came along at a fairly early date, and the latter have remained about the only type available. Some brass hoses have been produced by several suppliers, but on price alone these have been largely relegated to the brass market.

Well, over the years many, and probably most of my operating cars with such brake hoses lose them- broken all off in routine handling . The hoses litter the layout- Kadee, CalScale, Intermountain, Branchline- you name it. Sometimes its just the hose, sometimes the delicate bracket lies right there with it. Frustratingly, most of these hoses cannot be replaced on the model because the flimsy bracket has been destroyed or made unusable in the process, and replacement is a total pain. Very commonly, the hoses do not even last through the construction process- they litter the modeling bench instead.

After a lot of to-ing and fro-ing, I decided on "no more plastic brake hoses", only brass. Well, easier said than done, with sky high prices and no hobby supplier carrying them in sufficient numbers, if any at all. After some investigation, I learned that I could purchase the hoses in bulk quantity much cheaper from PSC (cast in Montana), and from Bowser (cast in China- in episodic batches). Although the terms were different, the end price was about the same, and I chose PSC "made in USA" (it was also much quicker- weeks instead of months).

Well, the packet of 50 shots of brass brake hoses, 12/shot. arrived (it was feather weight), and I have diligently working with and mounting these hoses on a backlog of cars.

Most plastic and brass HO air hoses stand out straight out from the valve at an angle outward, and also toward the center, and that is what I mostly see on otherwise fine models (including my own). Of course, these hoses never looked like this. Prototype hoses were flexible rubber with a heavy metal glad hand coupling on the end that pulled the hose into a curve with the end almost vertical to the ground- but not quite. The coupled hose also angled sharply toward the middle to couple with its companion from the next car, which caused the hose to assume a somewhat curled appearance with a compound S curve at the very end where the glad hands coupled. Even in the uncoupled state, the glad hand generally would not stick out further than somewhat less than the pulling face of the coupler.

Well, try replicating this appearance with the plastic hoses- sometimes you can get there almost, but usually not even close (in this regard, one will have an easier time with hoses alongside couplers with excessive striker/striker distance). In contradistinction the brass hoses can be bent to order, replicating the normal repose of the prototype brake hose.

At present, I am installing brass hoses much as I did plastic ones: using whatever brackets I can scrounge up- all plastic. The only ones commonly available are the Kadee's. They are very nice, honored by a very long production run (1959?), but as Tim O'Connor pointed out about a year ago, they are of an unusual type commonly used on log cars (which I believe is what Kadee used them for). However, you use what you have, and several resin kits from respected purveyors include them in their kits, even though it is doubtful from the evidence that the cars had anything like them to begin with.

We have a great need for after-market brake hose brackets that can be mounted in a substantial manner- of at least several different types.

Working with the brass hoses has not been all sunshine and roses. They are very delicate, and although they will undergo the bending that you want (and look great!), they will also snap off at the valve, unless you are very, very careful. What does careful mean?

1) Use the right tool. I use a pair of needle nose pliers with fully-rounded tapered jaws. Bending the hose over a sharp edge courts disaster.

2) Move very slowly. Although Tony T. will correct me and my un-sophistication in this regard, my thought has always been than in bending brass, moving slowly allows the molecules, etc. time to readjust to the new circumstances, whereas a fast move does not and a fracture occurs :-).

3) I mount the hoses with Barge cement, particularly in the existing hole in the bracket is larger than the "brake line hose"/handle of the hose (very common). This gives a very tough but flexible joint that I hope will withstand some bumps.

It is truly neat to observe a rolling string of nice detailed and weathered close coupled cars, all with quite visible and obvious brake hoses curling down and under the locked couplers, for all the world appearing to grasp its partner hose from the next car- uh-h -just like the real ones!.

Denny



The


--
Denny S. Anspach, MD
Sacramento