Thank you for the information Bill and Russ. I have an older GN map that shows the former Hamline yard in the current location of the BNSF intermodal teminal just east of the main Minnesta Transfer yard. I will be at the Jackson St. Roundhouse (Minnesota Transportation Museum) on Sat. for a NPRHA local meet and if any of the GN folks are there I will bring up your and Russ's comments. Brian Dick. Currently living in the Hamline-Midway neighborhood on St. Paul's west side.

Well, you learn something new every day. Thanks for pointing that out Tony. I take it this turns out to be a tip for more effective brass modelling generally - quick cooling it to minimize oxidation and build up of unsolderable scale and gunk?

Rob

Thanks Jim,

You've guessed correctly - I am doing both CPR and CNR cars. What I noticed in one resource on the CPR cars was the use of earlier style latch equipment. This includes a curved metal piece - see the photos of CP 228249 & CP 228236 at p.73 in Kline & Culotta's The Postwar Freight Car Fleet. These cars also use the more triangular shaped rolling mechanisms. The CNR car on p.70 - with NSC 2 end - appears to use the more rectangular shaped part. Too late for some of my models, but from here on I'll be more accurate.

I usually get into Central Hobbies Friday afternoon between 4 and 6 - I live too far away to get in most Saturdays, but I'll be at Trains '07, and might catch you there. Hal and Bill will be able to point me out.

Rob

Rob Kirkham wrote:

Unfortunately, the water dunk was counter productive. In metals work, once its red hot you want it to cool slowly - fast cooling only hardens it up again.

This would be true for steel, Rob, but not for brass. If anything, cooling it quickly reduces oxidation during cool-down.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

while at Naperville, I picked up one of Stan R's conversion kits for the
Linde cryogenic boxcars. when I got home I read RPC 14 and saw Champ made a
set HB 144a for the brown boxcar scheme and one for the later green scheme
that Stan had his car painted. Microscale also has decals for the later
schemes. The Champ website indicates HB-144a is out of stock. Does anyone
have a set or know where I can find a set?Does any other manufacturer make
decals for this car? Thanks
Brian J Carlson P.E.
Cheektowaga NY

Denny this is very interesting, so thanks for continuing to update the list with your efforts. One point worth noting: You said:
"Jack Burgess inquired as to whether or not they
could be annealed. [snip] I held the air hose in a gas
burner flame until dull red and then dunked it in
a nearby glass of water [snip]"

Unfortunately, the water dunk was counter productive. In metals work, once its red hot you want it to cool slowly - fast cooling only hardens it up again. I suppose its all a matter of degree, but I suggest you try to let them air cool instead. (I purchased a special soldering surface from a jewellery manufacturer that works good for this sort of work).

Regards,

Rob Kirkham

Since my last post on this fascinating subject,
quite a bit has gone under the bridge, and I have
gained considerable wisdom thereby:

As you recall I had purchased brass air hoses in
bulk from PSC on special order (i.e. they cast
them to order), and I found that there was a
learning curve in effectively adapting them to
our usual freight car modeling. A major problem
was that when shaping them, they tended to break
right at a very thin critical point between the
angle cock and the hose. An experienced modeler
also using these brass hoses has related to me
that he thinks that the installation "loss" is
perhaps around 10%. My initial loss was higher,
but has significantly subsided in the interim.

Jack Burgess inquired as to whether or not they
could be annealed. Good question, and I have
tried it- and it seems to work to some
substantial degree (I held the air hose in a gas
burner flame until dull red and then dunked it in
a nearby glass of water). I did curl up and lose
most of the air pipe on one hose by getting it
too hot, but all in all, it is worthwhile.

Jack also reported the fact (new to me, although
I should have known better after all of these
years) that the angle cock is rotated 30º
clockwise on the air pipe (viewed facing the car
end), the purpose being obviously that the two
facing cocks on adjacent coupled cars actually
squarely face each other on the same vertical
plane. Off list, Dennis Storzek has also sent me
some wonderful photos graphically depicting this.
This factoid simplifies things immensely inasmuch
as for most installations, all one needs to do to
shape the hose is to grasp the hose proper just
beyond the critically-thin section and gently
curl it downward almost to a vertical stance just
as gravity would encourage any hanging rubber
hose with a heavy weight on the end.

Before heading to Naperville, I installed brass
hoses on five cars, one styrene and four resin,
four of which I wrapped in plastic sheeting,
packed in fitted foam boxes, and took to the
show. Four individual air hose installations did
not make it. The hoses were great, but their
plastic or resin mounts were not. Outside
pressure on the hoses simply leveraged the mounts
beyond what they could stand. Part of this was
poor packing on my part, and more generally, it
indicates that the job is not finished: we need
good solid well anchored air hose brackets.

Keep in mind, all air hoses survived to live
again; the air hose brackets did not.

The only ones commonly available are Kadee's,
which I have since been told were more common
than just log cars, but still were relatively
unusual. These can and do work well providing
that once the bracket is cemented in place, it is
further anchored by driving a wire "drift pin"
through the base in to the underside of the car
or end (#76 drill), and ACC it in place. I
personally just use any one of the clipped off
wire grab iron remnants on the bench top, and
simply drill through to size.

According to Dennis' estimates, he feels that
about half of the cars in our interest era
1920-60 in broad terms just used a simple metal
strap 4-5" wide projecting out and sloping
gently down from under the end sill to suspend
the end of the air pipe and its attached angle
coek/air hose below with a U bolt. This strap
had some bracing of course, but the concept and
execution was pretty simple.

A number of our kits have included these
strap-type brackets in cast resin, the most
recent for me being a Sunshine SS Milwaukee
boxcar of c. 1922. These good looking, but
precarious brackets on this car did not survive
the leverage of the brass hoses during the trip,
and IMHO would not have survived long in routine
handling/operations otherwise under any
circumstances.

Finely done styrene brake hose hanger/brackets of
a slightly different type on a 50' Branchline
steel boxcar lasted even less time: both were
broken prior to the car even being put on the
track for the first time!

So, my attention is now directed to just how can
we have made some bulletproof brass air hose
brackets that have locating/anchoring pins that
can be inserted into drilled holes on the
underside of the car ends. My intention to to
first concentrate on developing some sort of
strap-type hanger that would be fine for at last
half of the cars we are doing, and perhaps be
acceptable by many for an awful lot of the
remaining cars as well.

Other air hose variables not mentioned, but have to be considered:
1) Compatibility with couplers with magnetic
coupling pins still intact. This issue includes
the pin on the coupler on the car A, and the pin
on the adjacent car B to which it wishes to be
coupled.

2) The effect of the wide coupler box. The air
pipe comes out right alongside the box right on
the central horizontal axis of the coupler
drawbar and head. If you are attempting to model
the air pipe right from the angle cock back to
the bolster, one has to consider the interference
of the wheels, which in most instances will
prevent it. With the narrow box, accurate
modeling of this detail becomes a greater
possibility.

I have more information to share on this subject,
but will retire for now. Dennis has generously
given me permission to share his photos and
graphics on this subject, and I will post them to
Files in the next day or so.

Dennis is a precious resource in our hobby.

BTW, I have a VERY limited number of packets (@36
count) of brass air hoses in excess of what I
will ever need, which I will sell for my expenses
(c. @ $0.27-0.30) and a SSASE. Please contact me
ONLY off-list.


Denny








--
Denny S. Anspach, MD
Sacramento

My local newspaper posts the front page of an old issue of the paper every day on its website. Today's post was from 1 Nov 1911 and included the following ad from the lower right of the front page:


Fine Ohio Potatoes

I will have a car of fine Ohio potatoes on track at the P. & L. E. station, Beaver, Friday, for 35 cents for 5 and 10 bushel lots, delivered.

Call B. F. Kidd on the Bell 1290-J, Beaver


KL

Being from Minnesota, I was one of the people that asked Bill about the location of Hamlin at Naperville. I promised Bill to check my GN station lists when I got home. I just looked through my copies of the Great Northern Railway Official List of Officers, Agents, and Stations for 1956, 1963, and 1969. There is no station called Hamlin or Hamline listed in any of the booklets. The back of the 1956 book list stations abandoned since 1930, and there is no Hamlin or Hamline listed there either. The books also list the locations of all scales on the GN, both railroad and industry owned. There are 3 scales listed in St. Paul in these books. Two are industries (Capital Milling and Minnesota Ry-Products Co.) The third scale is railroad owned with its location listed as St. Paul-Como Ave. This would be near Hamline Avenue, and fit with Michael Mang's previous comments copied below. Unfortunately, I don't know what the symbol was for this scale. A 1927 list of scales on the GN doesn't list this scale, but do list scales at railroad shops at Dale St. and Jackson St.

Sincerely,

Rich Remiarz
Vadnais Heights, MN (just North of St. Paul)

P.S. Bill, thanks for the excellent job on both clinics.

I enjoyed your talk at Naperville. I'm not a GN expert, but I found on an
old map of the Twin Cities a GN yard (near Hamline University) called
"Hamline Transfer". There is a Koppers Coke, and some other unlabeled
trackage on the map just south and a little west of the NP's Como Shops.



There is also a GN Engineer's contract here:
http://www.jaysworks.com/1637/agree/gnhog.html<http://www.jaysworks.com/1637/agree/gnhog.html> that says "Transfer
assignments, as now constituted, include such service between the following
points:

Saint Paul: Between Como Yard or points East of Como Yard and Hamline, W. F.
E. Shop Yard, Koppers Coke, or Fair Grounds, or points West thereof." Since
these points are all in very close proximity, I would believe that the WFE
cars weighed at Hamlin(e) are being weighed in this vicinity.

Michael Mang

Knowing what I do about the transport of nuclear (i.e. radioactive or fissionable) materials today back to the early 1960's I strongly doubt if these sorts of cars were used to haul "nuclear materials" even in the rather blissful 1950's. (The only thing I could think of as an exception would be tritium or polonium, but these materials were made at Savannah River SC, IIRC, and would've gone straight to Los Alamos NM or the PANTEX plant in Amarillo TX.) My guess is that the L&N book photo caption was extrapolated from the stencil. If it actually hauled freight at all it was probably non-nuclear but classified equipment.

KL

I worked at the Savannah River Plant in Aiken, SC from April 1970 until
August 1996 as a Nuclear Physicist. Although we had our own railroad on the
site, no nuclear materials were shipped off site by rail. It was all shipped in
un-marked 18-wheelers with a security escort preceding and following each
shipment.

Intra-site transport was done in special cask cars, which were ordinary flat
cars on which a large cask full of water was attached to ship the
radioactive material from the production reactor areas to the separations areas for
processing to the final products, plutonium and tritium. Speed was limited to
20 miles per hour as I recall.

Don Barnes
Aiken, SC



************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

Thanks Pieter - that's the type feedback I wanted, not quoting back
the ads which I've already read and even asking NMRA itself (who
basically quoted back their ad)

Jerry Glow

--- In STMFC@..., "pieter_roos" <pieter_roos@...> wrote:

Hi Jerry;

I have the book, although not in front of me. Since nearly all the
photographs were taken of in-service cars in 1947 and 1948, the 1898
cars were in fact still in service at that time and are neither

filler

nor misleading. The book includes statistical analysis of how the

cars

fit into the total fleet and discussion of how they reflect the
development of car design up to that time. Think of the prototype
sections of Ted's "Essential Freight Cars" series combined into a
single volume (although that is NOT to imply that the book is any

sort

of compilation of Ted's articles).

Pieter Roos


--- In STMFC@..., "jerryglow2" <jerryglow@> wrote:

I doubt many 1898 cars were still around. It's still misleading

or

just plain filler material

Jerry Glow

--- In STMFC@..., "pieter_roos" <pieter_roos@> wrote:

Not mis-leading when you consider the title covers the Post WWII
FLEET, not Post WWII CAR DESIGNS.

--- In STMFC@..., "al_brown03" <abrown@...> wrote:

Topo maps (topozone.com) don't show Hamlin, Lac qui Parle County, as
a station on any railroad: the nearest is the M&StL line from
Winthrop (Minn.) to Watertown (S.Dak.) and points west, which passes
through Dawson. The August 1936 Official Guide doesn't show Hamlin
either. It *does* show Hamline Transfer as a station on the GN; since
we're looking for a WFEX shop, I'll put my money there.

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.

Actually, we're looking for the scale where the WFEX shop re-weighed
their cars. It very likely didn't have the same place name as the
shop, but rather was named for the GN station it was located at.

Very similar to Soo Line cars repaired at Shoreham, also in
Minneapolis; those cars were all stenciled WS, for West Shoreham, the
name in the time table of the location where the scale actually was.

Dennis

Hi Jerry;

I have the book, although not in front of me. Since nearly all the
photographs were taken of in-service cars in 1947 and 1948, the 1898
cars were in fact still in service at that time and are neither filler
nor misleading. The book includes statistical analysis of how the cars
fit into the total fleet and discussion of how they reflect the
development of car design up to that time. Think of the prototype
sections of Ted's "Essential Freight Cars" series combined into a
single volume (although that is NOT to imply that the book is any sort
of compilation of Ted's articles).

Pieter Roos

I doubt many 1898 cars were still around. It's still misleading or
just plain filler material

Jerry Glow

--- In STMFC@..., "pieter_roos" <pieter_roos@...> wrote:

Not mis-leading when you consider the title covers the Post WWII
FLEET, not Post WWII CAR DESIGNS.

The fact that the car fleet at that time was unusually outdated has
been covered frequently in the past. Much of John Nehrich's

commentary

as early as the 1980's and 1990's covered this point.

Pieter Roos

--- In STMFC@..., "jerryglow2" <jerryglow@> wrote:

Yea, the add is misleading (to me) I assume "post war" means post

WW

II but the dates noted are PRE or during WW II. Also my calendar
showed that the 1st half of the 20th century was mostly pre war.

So

what ARE the years of coverage?

Jerry Glow

Topo maps (topozone.com) don't show Hamlin, Lac qui Parle County, as
a station on any railroad: the nearest is the M&StL line from
Winthrop (Minn.) to Watertown (S.Dak.) and points west, which passes
through Dawson. The August 1936 Official Guide doesn't show Hamlin
either. It *does* show Hamline Transfer as a station on the GN; since
we're looking for a WFEX shop, I'll put my money there.

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.


--- In STMFC@..., John Stokes <ggstokes@...> wrote:

That appears to be correct. Further research via the internet

reveals that there is a Hamlin-Midway Neighborhood on St. Paul's
South East side, near the major streets of Wabash and Kellogg, near
the River. There is also a Hamlin (no e) Street in the vicinity. So
the probability is that this ares was the location of the shops in
question.

John S.


To: STMFC@...: timboconnor@...: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 18:48:36

+0000Subject: RE: [STMFC] The location of the mysterious Hamlin,
Minnesota

From what I can find out Madison was located on the M&StL not the

GN. Didn'tsomeone say the "Hamlin shop" was in South St Paul?---------
----- Original message ----------------------From: John Stokes
<ggstokes@...>> From the information on Wikipedia and other sites in
a Google search, Hamlin was > obviously larger at one time. It is in
the Southwest part of Minnesota on the > border, and Madison,
Minnesota is the main town and county seat. I did not find > out
whether this is on the main line of the Great Northern, however. >
Nevertheless, it is a real town and still existed in 2000, and from
some > indications still does, but times have changed as we all
know.> > John S> > To: STMFC@...: thompson@...: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 >
10:32:41 -0700Subject: Re: [STMFC] The location of the mysterious
Hamlin, > Minnesota> > William Bryk wrote:> Given Minnesota's
enthusiastic support for the war effort, > it stands > to reason that
some settlement may have named itself for him before > it > faded
into obscurity. I don't think there's a relationship between > Hamlin

and Hamline.But to have WFE shops and a reweigh location at a

hamlet of 185 > persons beggars belief.Tony Thompson

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Not mis-leading when you consider the title covers the Post WWII
FLEET, not Post WWII CAR DESIGNS.

The fact that the car fleet at that time was unusually outdated has
been covered frequently in the past. Much of John Nehrich's commentary
as early as the 1980's and 1990's covered this point.

Pieter Roos

Bill, already pointed out Hamlin was actually the name of the Western Fruit
shops in Saint Paul in his original email. This continued discussion moot
and quite funny actually as it shows how threads can take on a life of their
own at times.

Brian Carlson

That appears to be correct. Further research via the internet reveals that there is a Hamlin-Midway Neighborhood on St. Paul's South East side, near the major streets of Wabash and Kellogg, near the River. There is also a Hamlin (no e) Street in the vicinity. So the probability is that this ares was the location of the shops in question.

John S.


To: STMFC@...: timboconnor@...: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 18:48:36 +0000Subject: RE: [STMFC] The location of the mysterious Hamlin, Minnesota