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Re: ADMIN: Was: Re: Re: True Line Trains HO Scale Canadian Prewar AAR Boxcars...Now: A change in a rule.

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Tony Thompson writes:

Mike Brock wrote:
. . . members are permitted...even encouraged...to comment about the
accuracy of a model with reference to the model's actual prototype . .
. or lack thereof. The STMFC is NOT, however, a forum to criticize a
manufacturer's goals, practices, or achievements.
Man, is THIS a thin line. We can criticize the heck out of a
model's accuracy but can't mention the manufacturer's lack of
"achievement?" I know the intent of Mike's rule, but am not very clear
on how a lack of accuracy is different from a lack of achievement.
But certainly attacking a manufacturer's apparent business plan
or attitude is, and should be, well out of bounds."

Upon further review, the "ruling on the field is reversed". The term "achievement" is a bad choice and I withdraw it. The STMFC remains a forum in which a manufacturer's goals and practices are NOT within scope. The rule change in which personal attacks on manufacturers are not permitted remains in place. The determination of what constitutes a personal attack is, of course, subjective and I would hope and expect that the members can distinguish between a personal attack and a critical comment.

Mike Brock
STMFC Owner


Re: Atlas ICC 105 tank

John Hile <john66h@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., Garth Groff <ggg9y@...> wrote:

Friends,

Besides California Despatch, what other roadnames of the Atlas ICC 105
tank might have been seen in California in natural gas service?

Thanks much.

Garth,

I assumes when you said "natural gas" you meant products of natural
gas such as LPG. I have been researching California industries in an
effort to build a reasonable freight car fleet for the Santa Fe's
Valley Division late '52 to mid '53. Here is the little I have so far
on LPG cars beyond those mentioned by Richard...

The Sunray Oil Corp (SUYX) lists ICC105A300W's in the 1/53 ORER and
shows a "home point" for cars as Santa Maria, CA (Santa Maria Vy RR)
The Atlas cars are SHPX and leased to Sunray, but I have not
researched these cars yet, nor determined what products originated for
Sunray at Santa Maria.

Anchor Petroleum Co (ANPX) has ICC105A300W's in the 1/53 ORER and
lists one of their home points as Gulf, CA (Sunset Ry). I still have
to determine what products Anchor produced at the Gulf, CA facility,
but significant natural gas and petroleum deposits were found in Kern
Co. See Ed's posts in response to my inquiries on these Atlas cars.

Pacific Gas Corp leased cars from Republic Tank Car Co (RTCX) and
Kaminski's ACF tank book has photos on p 174, 175 of RTCX cars leased
to Pacific, but (at a minimum) the lettering styles/schemes are
different than any of the Atlas RTCX models. One of my sources shows
Pacific with a gas field in Kern County, circa 1949.

That source (Mineral Commodities of California, 1950) lists the
largest of the 74 operating CA gas processing plants as of the close
of 1948. The LPG plants are:

Standard Oil of CA at Kettleman Hills (UTLX)
Ohio Oil Co at South Coles Levee
General Petroleum Corp at Athens
Western Gulf Oil Co at Paloma

Perhaps others on the list may know what cars (if any) the other
companies may have used.

Hope this helps,

John Hile
Blacksburg, VA


Re: Link to the NMRA "The Postwar Freight Car Fleet" BooK

Charles Hladik
 

Greg,
I think you can find it at _www.nmra.org_ (http://www.nmra.org) Down
the left side to "supplies and Collectibles".
Chuck Hladik



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Re: Atlas ICC 105 tank

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Nov 16, 2007, at 9:19 AM, Andy Sperandeo wrote:

Hi Richard,

Atlas appears to have corrected the color of its Warren car. I saw
one new
in its box in a hobby shop last weekend that was light gray instead of
aluminum.

So long,

Andy

Andy Sperandeo
Executive Editor
Model Railroader magazine
asperandeo@...
262-796-8776, ext. 461
FAX 262-796-1142



Richard Hendrickson


True Line Trains HO Scale Canadian Prewar AAR Boxcars

Rob Kirkham <rdkirkham@...>
 

I appreciate your sharing this information Allen.

FYI for those working on TLT 1937 AAR boxcar models, several of us working with the TLT models have found that the orange-based, white coloured, pumice-filled hand cleansers available from automotive stores work great at removing the lettering with no fuss. These cleansers have a goopy consistency that allows one to place a drop on a specific letter, without it spreading to other parts of the car as a liquid would - and so you can easily avoid damage to other lettering. After 5 or 10 or 15 minutes, depending on the amount of material to be lifted, it scrubs away with almost no pressure using a soft watercolour paint brush. A rinse under the tap and the car is ready to decal.

I noticed that the treatment did cause a bit of increased lustre to the paint finish where the lettering was removed. But that was of no consequence once the car was lettered, weathered and dullcoated. This feature was great for removing the unwanted CN on the door, and for changing car numbers and re-weigh dates. I was able to select one or two digits on the car number, remove those and re-letter with Black Cat decals to allow multiple other road numbers.

I do hope that as True Line learns this business and (in my opinion) continues to incrementally improve its products from one project to the next, they continue to use this same paint/ink for the lettering. In fact, I'd like it if every manufacturer would learn that secret and follow suit!

Rob Kirkham



Rob Kirkham

----- Original Message -----
From: "ajfergusonca" <ajferguson@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 8:01 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: True Line Trains HO Scale Canadian Prewar AAR Boxcars
[snip]

Ben:
I must take some responsibility for the lettering mixup on the 40'
TLT boxcars.


Re: ADMIN: Was: Re: Re: True Line Trains HO Scale Canadian Prewar AAR Boxcars...Now: A change in a rule.

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Mike Brock wrote:
. . . members are permitted...even encouraged...to comment about the accuracy of a model with reference to the model's actual prototype . . . or lack thereof. The STMFC is NOT, however, a forum to criticize a manufacturer's goals, practices, or achievements.
Man, is THIS a thin line. We can criticize the heck out of a model's accuracy but can't mention the manufacturer's lack of "achievement?" I know the intent of Mike's rule, but am not very clear on how a lack of accuracy is different from a lack of achievement.
But certainly attacking a manufacturer's apparent business plan or attitude is, and should be, well out of bounds.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


ADMIN: Was: Re: Re: True Line Trains HO Scale Canadian Prewar AAR Boxcars...Now: A change in a rule.

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Jim ? writes:

"Why be in a Rush to bring out a product that isn't close then Blame
everybody else for there mistakes.
Doesn't the box say "Quality Beyond Compare"??
The Body , Trucks, Frame "except where the 6 wheel truck is" ALL match the
P1K ??
If they are about Quality, Why not make the correct truck sideframe for the
rear?? Why use a PA-DL109 sideframe ??
Guess I will do another kit instead. TLT hasn't shone me anything."


OK. The point here is not to beat up on Jim but to point out a few STMFC rule violations and a slight change to one. First, there is the long standing rule that members MUST sign with their full names. Second, note the STMFC rule:

"Personal attacks on other members is expressly prohibited and may result in
expulsion from the group."

That rule is now changed to:

"Personal attacks on other members or MANUFACTURERS is expressly prohibited and may result in
expulsion from the group."

Note the additional STMFC rule:

"Members are permitted to criticize or praise manufacturer's products free
from criticism from other members. Criticism of a manufacturer's business
practices is, however, not within the scope of the group."

The STMFC was founded for, among other reasons, to provide the means for members to determine the truth regarding the authenticity of models of steam era frt cars. Hence, members are permitted...even encouraged...to comment about the accuracy of a model with reference to the model's actual prototype...or lack thereof. Thus, for example, if a model of a USRA 40 ft DS box car lacks a detail that a modeler believes to be important, the modeler is free to comment on it. The name of the manufacturer certainly may be included along with the model's description. At the same time, another modeler may not believe the missing detail is important and might praise the model. Bot modelers are free from criticism from other modelers. Members of the STMFC will exercise their own judgement as to the authenticity based on the modeler's comments and other information.

The STMFC is NOT, however, a forum to criticize a manufacturer's goals, practices, or achievements. Thus, if "Great Model Trains" [ a fictitious name if you're curious ] produces a model of a USRA box car of less quality than that which a modeler might deem that it should, so be it. The modeler is DEFINITELY permitted to note the lack of quality in the model but the STMFC is NOT a forum to criticize the manufacturer for producing such a model. The market will take the necessary action in support of products of outstanding quality and penalize those that are not of such quality. It is not necessary...and, in fact, it is prohibited on the STMFC ...to criticize or attack a manufacturer for producing a model of less quality than a modeler might perceive required.

Mike Brock
STMFC Owner









Jim's message contains several critical references to TLT's business practices.


Re: Atlas ICC 105 tank

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Clark Propst wrote:
Ed, I've 'sort of' joked with Sam Clarke about them doing the UTLX or GATX cars. He told me at Trainfest their next model won't be a tank car. Of course what else could he say?
Reminds of when a Microsoft executive was asked if it was true that they were negotiating to buy Yahoo. He said, "If we were, I wouldn't tell you, and if we weren't, I wouldn't tell you."

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Atlas ICC 105 tank

rockroll50401 <cepropst@...>
 


Joe,
I have a suggestion on what to "fix" the Atlas model. Have Kadee do
it
correctly!
Regards,
Ed Hawkins
Ed, I've 'sort of' joked with Sam Clarke about them doing the UTLX or
GATX cars. He told me at Trainfest their next model won't be a tank
car. Of course what else could he say? He threw me out of their booth
in St Paul, muttering something about not being able to being guns on
airplanes, when I showed my friends their coal hopper in a movie they
were showing before it was released.
Clark Propst


Re: Atlas ICC 105 tank

Ed Hawkins
 

On Nov 16, 2007, at 12:57 PM, joe binish wrote:

Do you think we could strong-arm Mr Black Cat into making a
"definitive"
set? Allen mentioned to me at Naperville that he is looking for some
sets
to work up in his "spare" time. A set of instructions on what to fix
on the
Atlas car would be a nice addendum.
My 2 cents....
Joe Binish
Joe,
I have a suggestion on what to "fix" the Atlas model. Have Kadee do it
correctly!
Regards,
Ed Hawkins


Re: Atlas ICC 105 tank

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

joe binish wrote:
Do you think we could strong-arm Mr Black Cat into making a "definitive" set? Allen mentioned to me at Naperville that he is looking for some sets to work up in his "spare" time. A set of instructions on what to fix on the Atlas car would be a nice addendum.
Excellent suggestion, Joe. We could also use the white Warren lettering for the black cars. I'd love to have accurate versions of both schemes.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Atlas ICC 105 tank

joe binish <joebinish@...>
 

Do you think we could strong-arm Mr Black Cat into making a "definitive" set? Allen mentioned to me at Naperville that he is looking for some sets to work up in his "spare" time. A set of instructions on what to fix on the Atlas car would be a nice addendum.
My 2 cents....
Joe Binish

----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Hendrickson" <rhendrickson@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 12:18 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Atlas ICC 105 tank


On Nov 16, 2007, at 9:02 AM, joe binish wrote:

I have a decorated Atlas car that I flat coated and weathered. Still
not
enough. One day(in the future) I will strip, repaint and decal. The
car
looks really good if you scrape off the grabs around the dome and
replace
with wire grabs.
I've considered the same rememdy, but currently there are no accurate
decals for the Warren cars; the old Champ set is seriously lame.
Another problem with all of the Atlas ICC-105s is that there are
riveted strips under the running boards on each side, somewhat offset
from center, which weren't on the prototype cars and have to be
removed., I was puzzled for awhile about why these were there and then
I realized that the die maker (presumably Chinese) misinterpreted the
prototype photos and thought the riveted flanges of the center anchor
were underneath the running boards. Of course, the model therefore has
no center anchor, so that needs to be added as well. Most other
manufacturers would have caught this obvious error, but Atlas is
notorious for mistakes of this kind (e.g., the bolster blunder on the
Roger-Hart Convertible ballast hopper models).

Richard Hendrickson






Yahoo! Groups Links




Re: Atlas ICC 105 tank

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Nov 16, 2007, at 9:02 AM, joe binish wrote:

I have a decorated Atlas car that I flat coated and weathered. Still
not
enough. One day(in the future) I will strip, repaint and decal. The
car
looks really good if you scrape off the grabs around the dome and
replace
with wire grabs.
I've considered the same rememdy, but currently there are no accurate
decals for the Warren cars; the old Champ set is seriously lame.
Another problem with all of the Atlas ICC-105s is that there are
riveted strips under the running boards on each side, somewhat offset
from center, which weren't on the prototype cars and have to be
removed., I was puzzled for awhile about why these were there and then
I realized that the die maker (presumably Chinese) misinterpreted the
prototype photos and thought the riveted flanges of the center anchor
were underneath the running boards. Of course, the model therefore has
no center anchor, so that needs to be added as well. Most other
manufacturers would have caught this obvious error, but Atlas is
notorious for mistakes of this kind (e.g., the bolster blunder on the
Roger-Hart Convertible ballast hopper models).

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Atlas ICC 105 tank

Andy Sperandeo <asperandeo@...>
 

Hi Richard,

Atlas appears to have corrected the color of its Warren car. I saw one new
in its box in a hobby shop last weekend that was light gray instead of
aluminum.

So long,

Andy

Andy Sperandeo
Executive Editor
Model Railroader magazine
asperandeo@...
262-796-8776, ext. 461
FAX 262-796-1142


Re: Atlas ICC 105 tank

joe binish <joebinish@...>
 

I have a decorated Atlas car that I flat coated and weathered. Still not enough. One day(in the future) I will strip, repaint and decal. The car looks really good if you scrape off the grabs around the dome and replace with wire grabs.

Joe Binish

----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Hendrickson" <rhendrickson@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 10:41 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Atlas ICC 105 tank


On Nov 16, 2007, at 3:57 AM, Garth Groff wrote:

Besides California Despatch, what other roadnames of the Atlas ICC 105
tank might have been seen in California in natural gas service?
Union Tank Line and Shippers Car Line leased cars were common in
Calif.; both had sizable fleets of ICC 105s. Warren cars were also
common, but unfortunately the Atlas model is painted the wrong color,
and that's not easy to fix. The Warren cars were light gray (NOT
aluminum) with black underframes and bottom sheets and green valve
casings.

Richard Hendrickson






Yahoo! Groups Links




Re: Atlas ICC 105 tank

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Nov 16, 2007, at 3:57 AM, Garth Groff wrote:

Besides California Despatch, what other roadnames of the Atlas ICC 105
tank might have been seen in California in natural gas service?
Union Tank Line and Shippers Car Line leased cars were common in
Calif.; both had sizable fleets of ICC 105s. Warren cars were also
common, but unfortunately the Atlas model is painted the wrong color,
and that's not easy to fix. The Warren cars were light gray (NOT
aluminum) with black underframes and bottom sheets and green valve
casings.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: True Line Trains HO Scale Canadian Prewar AAR Boxcars

pierreoliver2003 <pierre.oliver@...>
 

Al,

The problem from where I sit is that it isn't painted but cast in
somewhat the correct colour. Giving the whole car a toy like
appearance.
It makes me fear for the upcoming cabooses.
Pierre Oliver


And what's wrong with the paint?

Another 12 CN numbers have been commissioned with 1 & 2 corrected.
TLT will also have the CN caboose out in a short while and the CV
and DWP lettering are bogus for that car, they wanted to make some
money I guess.

Allen Ferguson


Re: True Line Trains HO Scale Canadian Prewar AAR Boxcars

ajfergusonca <ajferguson@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "benjaminfrank_hom" <b.hom@...> wrote:

Roger that, Larry, but that doesn't excuse the paint and lettering
screwups on these models.
Ben:
I must take some responsibility for the lettering mixup on the 40'
TLT boxcars. I had just finished the steel frame SS 40' car decal
set. It was hurry-up offence with 2 weeks to send 12 copies of
lettering. Different leaves, different dates, 2 different cars -
NSC1 & flat roof and NSC2 & raised pnl roof. I did the simplest
thing and took the decal artwork and pasted it on a boxcar drawing.
I made a couple of mistakes with the lettering:
1. The CN on the door is only on the SS box cars. It must be removed.
2. The space between the reporting marks and the capy block was 6 "
too small. Some railroads have the smaller space (CPR). The factory
sometimes put the lettering with the capy block located correctly
and sometimes the reporting marks were correctly seemingly at random.
Both of the above mistakes were missed by Stafford Swaine and
TLT "experts".
3. Someone between myself and the end product added a 10'6" car
number to the mix.
I never demanded to see the test shots or paints. The first
completed car I saw was a my LHS as it was going out the door.

And what's wrong with the paint?

Another 12 CN numbers have been commissioned with 1 & 2 corrected.
TLT will also have the CN caboose out in a short while and the CV
and DWP lettering are bogus for that car, they wanted to make some
money I guess.

Allen Ferguson


Re: Atlas ICC 105 tank

Garth Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Friends,

Besides California Despatch, what other roadnames of the Atlas ICC 105 tank might have been seen in California in natural gas service?

Thanks much.


Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

Ed Hawkins wrote:

On Nov 14, 2007, at 10:48 AM, John Hile wrote:


I have been able to confirm the 1951 built date from Richard
Hendrickson's article in the July 2003 Railmodel Journal. In that
article, there is a photo (Bob's/Col. Chet McCoid) of ANPX 120 and
Richard's caption gives the built date. The photo was taken Sept.
1957, and the scheme matches that on the Atlas model.

My January 1953 ORER, however, does not list an ANPX number series
that would include these cars. There are several listings for ICC
105A300W tanks, but they are in the 2010 to 3570 range and vary in
capy from 10,500 gal to 11,014 gal.

So, my questions are:
1) When new in 1951, did these cars carry the same paint scheme?
2) When new, what number did this car (or cars in this lot) carry?
John,
The photo of ANPX 120 has a build date of 5-51. It was built by AC&F and it generally matches the Atlas model (as close as the model allows). I can say with certainty that AC&F didn't build the car for Anchor Petroleum.

AC&F lot 3553 was 200 cars for Sunray Oil Co. (SUYX 101-300). I have never been able to locate the AC&F builder's photo for this series of cars. The AC&F bill of materials for this lot number provides information only on the underframe and trucks. Your 1/53 ORER likely lists the SUYX 101-300 series cars. Sometime between 1/53 and the 4/55, the cars became ANPX 101-300. I don't have immediate access to any ORERs in between, so perhaps others can help pinpoint when the change was made. Hope this helps answer your question.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins







Yahoo! Groups Links




Re: True Line Trains HO Scale Canadian Prewar AAR Boxcars

NHJJ4@...
 

Well,
I was kinda hoping to get a car or two for my use. But listening to the
complaints about the Paint, detail,
Cant do it ?? cant get it right ?
Reminds me that TLT even Blew it on there 5 AX C-Liner. Wrong Paint Wrong
detail (for US Roads)
Wrong lettering.
They say there "Experts" Got it right ?? But "Our" Experts were promised
"Test shots" to check out the model, paint, Detail, And Nothing. Not a word
from TLT. Till it came out.???
Why be in a Rush to bring out a product that isn't close then Blame
everybody else for there mistakes.
Doesn't the box say "Quality Beyond Compare"??
The Body , Trucks, Frame "except where the 6 wheel truck is" ALL match the
P1K ??
If they are about Quality, Why not make the correct truck sideframe for the
rear?? Why use a PA-DL109 sideframe ??
Guess I will do another kit instead. TLT hasn't shone me anything.
Jim




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