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Cranberries-Proof of the cranberries is in the eatin'
Mike Brock <brockm@...>
Using the theory that the proof of the puddin' is in the eatin' I decided to take a look at the consists of PFE, SFRD and FGE reefers in about 17 WESTBOUND UP trains passing between Laramie and Green River, WY between March 16, 1949 and April 22, 1949. As the results show, by far the most common consist was air...MT. I don't know if anyone would be surprised to see spds..potatoes...traveling west but 3 cars had them. Also...cabbage? I'm assuming gware is glass ware but I have no idea what mchy is. Anyhow, yes, this is a very small sample. The frt trains analyzed are only those that conductor Fraley rode and on a given day UP ran about 20 westbound frt trains. Fraley seems to have worked west early in the day and back east later that day. He then took off the next day. So, the data probably represents one in about 40 trains. Not a cranberry in sight.
PFE syrup-1 gware-4 mdse-10 mchy-1 MT-122 meat-1 spds-3 boxs-1 beer-1 cabbage-1 butter-1 SFRD- 32634 meat to pocotello mt-1 spds-1 mdse-2 beer-1 FGE-beer-2 mdse-1 Mike Brock
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Re: 1904 Library of Congress Film
Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
Note the corrected link below. . .
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That's the East Pittsburg(h) Works in East Pittsburgh/Turtle Creek. The camera was running on the PRR. KL .
----- Original Message -----
From: RichBeau To: STMFC@... Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 8:43 AM Subject: [STMFC] 1904 Library of Congress Film Stumbled across this 2-part 1904 video in the Library of Congress of the Westinghouse Works in Western PA. There's a couple of interesting things about this; 1) it's taken from somewhere on a moving train, and 2) if you pay attention there's some great views turn-of-the-century freight cars. http://memory.loc.gov/mbrs/westhpp/2237s1.mpg http://memory.loc.gov/mbrs/westhpp/2237s2.mpg Enjoy! --Rich Beaubien Bolton MA
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Re: Marketing Agreements & Contracts (was: Cranberries)
John Hile <john66h@...>
--- In STMFC@..., tgregmrtn@... wrote:
the public. Unless, of course, the agreement became public through litigation... See: Tank Car Corp. v. El Dorado Terminal Co., 308 U.S. 422 (1940) at http://supreme.justia.com/us/308/422/case.html Or became subject to ICC regulation... For example: the Freight Traffic Red Book has examples of special multi-car (trainlot) rates applied for and approved on a case-by-case basis...one being bauxite from Mobile, AL to Vancover, WA, effective June 20,1940. John Hile
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1904 Library of Congress Film
RichBeau <RichBeau@...>
Stumbled across this 2-part 1904 video in the Library of Congress of
the Westinghouse Works in Western PA. There's a couple of interesting things about this; 1) it's taken from somewhere on a moving train, and 2) if you pay attention there's some great views turn-of-the-century freight cars. http://memory.loc.gov/mbrs/westhpp/2237s2.mpg http://memory.loc.gov/mbrs/westhpp/2237s2.mpg Enjoy! --Rich Beaubien Bolton MA
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Re: Cranberries-Proof of the cranberries is in the eatin'
Charles Hladik
Mike,
I think that "mchy" is machinery. Have a MERRY CHRISTMAS and eat a lot of cranberries. Chuck Hladik **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)
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Re: Cranberries
Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
Greg Martin wrote:
First of all if we look for paper to verify the use of foreign line cars in reloading or loading application we are not likely to find it.Fine. That's why I interviewed people rather than counting on finding paper. But remember, Greg, absence of paper likewise does not prove there WAS an agreement. Tony, your right the SP would not likely?request or reload?an ATSF car?for an online move, but I wonder how PFE management would view several carloadings that destine for someplace like Albuquerque, NM and furthermore, why would the Santa Fe want to pay mileage to PFE for a move?from Albuquerque with an empty?dead head back? Why?would?PFE want to loose a car offline for perhaps two weeks or more in the middle of a harvest?Sorry, you're not making sense. The railroads HAD to pay mileage to the refrigerator car operators whether the "wanted to" or not. And we've already agreed that cranberries are NOT harvested in the peak seasons for the growing territories of ATSF and PFE. No, SP did not "reload ATSF cars," as it was PFE's responsibility to supply cars on-line to both UP and SP perishable shippers. And ample testimony from those who did the work is that PFE and SFRD simply did not use each other's cars. Period. You can rationalize from your car distribution experience all you want, but those are the facts from that era. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroad history
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Re: HO scale EJ&E Box Car decals
Elden,
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I went to Larsen's Hobby yesterday for orner Bill's birthday sale / celebration. I found some ( maybe 3) Champ HN-58 White steam era roadname sets. They have 2 versions of the CHICAGO OUTER BELT rectangle framed logo and 2 sizes of the more contemporary double framed and a "AROUND NOT THROUGH" map with E.J.& E. and spelled out reporting marks and numerals. $3. I also found about 6 or so Kevin Piper / Rail Graphics sets for the 8ft door car. They are in Orange for the green car and he has a little data sheet. Those are complete sets and I have uses rail graphics sets that I bought for some Q rolling stock that are still great after 10 years. For any other decal hunters, he has a number of GN sets. I also spotted some original RC X29s and Branchline kits. You can reach Bill at Larsen Hobby, 2571 E Lincoln Hwy Ste 5 New Lenox, IL 60451 (815) 485-1991 Merry Christmas, Rob Manley
----- Original Message -----
From: Gatwood, Elden J SAD To: STMFC@... Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 6:41 AM Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: HO scale EJ&E Box Car decals Rob; Thanks for the info! I will look for one. I was also surprised about the 1952 date. It seems awfully early for such a colorful scheme. I will keep after this and let you know what I find. Thanks, Elden ________________________________ From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Rob Manley Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2007 12:31 AM To: STMFC@... Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: HO scale EJ&E Box Car decals Elden, I have one of the split Orange & Green cars. I think Desplaines Hobbies did that as a custom run. 1952 eh? I thought that would have been a later 50's scheme. Rob Manley ----- Original Message ----- From: Gatwood, Elden J SAD To: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, December 14, 2007 6:32 AM Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: HO scale EJ&E Box Car decals Rob; Thanks very much for all the info! I will look for that set. I was reading a few of the references, and saw one that said the split green-over-orange scheme with billboard EJ&E and the banner herald on the left was introduced in 1952, which would be a great set for a lot of modelers, but you look through the decal catalogs and offerings, and it is amazing how many pretty common, or at least popular, box car scheme have not been done (at least well), in comparison with all these oddball one-of-a-kind schemes that folks have done. One could make a sideline out of doing good decals for things like the numerous B&O, EJ&E, NYC, PRR, RI, WAB classes (and other RRs), that have not been done, particularly if one were to build the car and present it in a magazine (and get everyone drooling). Thanks again, Elden Gatwood ________________________________ From: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Robert MANLEY Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 4:42 PM To: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: HO scale EJ&E Box Car decals Elden, Walthers also had a "one size fits all" set of freightcar decals. I can't remember exactly what they had in thier set but I remember it didn't have the Jumbo EJ&E or the correct single line version of thier herald. They also looked like they were rubber stamped. I was going to letter up a Robins Rail PS 50'er. Oh well, out of era anyway. Try Larsen Hobbies in New Lenox, IL for anything J,except the 3 mini-kits I bought him. Happy Modeling, Rob Manley ----- Original Message ---- From: "Gatwood, Elden J SAD" <Elden.J.Gatwood@... <mailto:Elden.J.Gatwood%40sad01.usace.army.mil> <mailto:Elden.J.Gatwood%40sad01.usace.army.mil> > To: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 1:59:46 PM Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: HO scale EJ&E Box Car decals Rob; Thanks very much for the reply! I now realize that in my haste, I was not very clear about what I was looking for, which is the decals in HO for the lettering schemes following the bigger "map" herald of which you speak (and which Sunshine provided in their mini-kit and old EJ&E USRA steel rebuild). The ones I specifically would like to find are the large billboard letter schemes in either orange on green over orange, or vice versa, the earlier of which has the small "around not thru.." banner herald, And the latter ones of which only have the big billboard letters. There are a number of pictures of these cool schemes, but unless you have a mini-kit or like to bash things (shorty 8-foot Superior door...ends. ..body) you would not have an accurate car. Perhaps these guys just have never been done... B&LE did a lot of coil shipment on pallets in these 8' door box cars, like the P&WV with its AC&F 8'-door cars, and I would also be interested in who else might have done this. Thanks for looking into it! Elden Gatwood ____________ _________ _________ __ From: STMFC@yahoogroups. com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Rob Manley Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 4:26 PM To: STMFC@yahoogroups. com Subject: [STMFC] Re: HO scale EJ&E Box Car decals --- In STMFC@yahoogroups. com <mailto:STMFC% 40yahoogroups. com> , "Gatwood, Elden J SAD " <Elden.J.Gatwood@ ...> wrote: > Eldon, Sunshine did these cars as a mini kit in both the boxcar red and Green w/ Orange lettering schemes. There is a model brown car on the STMFC site. I heard Martin doesn't sell the mini kits through the mail but I saw quite a few of them at Naperville this past year.You get new ends, sill,door and frame parts to upgrade a Branchline car. Happy Hunting, Rob Manley .> Guys; > > > > Does anyone know of a source for (good) HO decals for EJ&E box cars in the > 1952+ orange and green billboard schemes? Particularly the 10' IH 8' door 40 > footers? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Elden Gatwood > > > > > > >
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AAR's "Rules Governing the Loading of Commodities on Open Top Cars"
PBowers <waiting@...>
I have some AAR manuals for sale.
I have the AAR's "Rules Governing the Loading of Commodities on Open Top Cars" for 1942 and 1945. $55 each These are the full document, 420+ pages, not the smaller specific loading pamplets. I also have AAR Interchange rule books for 1953, 1958 and 1985. and Maintenance of Brakes and Train Air Signal Equipment 1942. Prices in order of mention $15, $15. $10 and $7.50 If interested, please contact me off-list. Peter Bowers
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Re: Apex Tri-Lok modeling in HO
Richard Hendrickson
On Dec 20, 2007, at 5:58 PM, David wrote:
Hello-What we commonly call Apex running boards were what Apex called "Tri-Lok" running boards, that being their trade name for the process by which the metal components were assembled. AFAIK Apex never made any other type of running board, but even if they did it was not widely used and the Tri-Lok design was the one that was applied to thousands of freight cars from the mid-1930s until running boards began to be phased out in the '60s. Richard Hendrickson
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Apex Tri-Lok modeling in HO
Hello-
I am looking for an HO scale Apex Tri-Lok running board. I have found several sources for "Apex" running boards but nothing specifically "Apex Tri-Lok". Is it safe to assume that Apex Tri-Lok is usually shortened to just Apex or are there other more common Apex running boards? None of the catalog images are clear enough for me to make out the details for myself. Thanks David Snook Wichita, KS
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Re: Cranberries
Greg Martin
All,
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First of all if we look for paper to verify the use of foreign line cars in reloading or loading application we are not likely to find it. Marketing agreements and contract were private and protected from the public.?In conversations with several marketing guys (now retired and as you might expect working as consultants and one old head ex-Q ex-BN car applicator) this was the way it was explained to me. When marketing wanted to increase market share the first hurdle of new business was to go to car management and bring the idea to them, ultimately they made the program happen or die. Marketing would explain the opportunity, "we have this piece of business on the Santa Fe in the LA Basin to move a product (this case cranberries, it could be apples) into LA Markets and capture some SP market share..." The reply was always, "Okay, so where do we get the cars?" "We are tapped out on reefers and if the Santa Fe wants the business they will have to agree to?supply the cars or allow us to reload their empties out of Hoquim, Markem,or South Bend to make the program work." With heads down and lower lips rolled down the marketing guys head back to their desk... However if the Santa Fe car management agrees to a portion of the car supply the program goes forward.?If cars of a particular type were long because of? short harvest or in betwen harvest then car management?might agree, it was simply a matter of asset management. Why would car management that serves the origin want to supply a?car offline to cover the business for the Santa Fe(or any foreign road)? Cars and especially?high?value cars like reefers?were always tight, all through the 40's, 50's and 60's. Now if there was a new class of car displacing another?similar perhaps they could be added to the service, but by the 50's?many older car?of like types were being scrapped or rebuilt but the fleet never grew on a one to one basis.? We have had long discussion regarding?car management on this list, and I realize it might be difficult for some outside the business to understand asset management, but railcars were the railroads most valuable asset, other than people.? Tony, your right the SP would not likely?request or reload?an ATSF car?for an online move, but I wonder how PFE management would view several carloadings that destine for someplace like Albuquerque, NM and furthermore, why would the Santa Fe want to pay mileage to PFE for a move?from Albuquerque with an empty?dead head back? Why?would?PFE want to loose a car offline for perhaps two weeks or more in the middle of a harvest? And it might not be cranberries, it could be pear from southern Oregon, or hops from the upper Willamette Valley, these were all considerations for good car management. As one retired Milwaukee marketing guy told me we have to give you a car, that is mandated, but we never said when... But he admits that this was part of the ultimate death of his railroad... Greg martin?
-----Original Message-----
From: Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> To: STMFC@... Sent: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 10:37 am Subject: Re: [STMFC] Cranberries Greg Martin wrote: Product reaching the LA markets were likely seen in PFE or ATSF andThis is an interesting speculation and it would be nice to find evidence. I personally doubt if it happened this way, as the WFE people were responsible to their own roads and would have preferred their own cars. Certainly in other markets served by SFRD and PFE there was no such "market pool" for particular crops, even if such pools did exist for other products. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroad history ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com
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Re: Cranberries
John Hile <john66h@...>
--- In STMFC@..., Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:
FWIW, I checked a 1950 Freight Traffic Red Book and copy of the Perishable Protective Tariff No. 13, effective June 15, 1944. Nothing obvious regarding cranberries, i.e. requests for rate adjustments, handling rules, etc., from point A to point B. I did, however, upload a pdf scan to the STMFC file area of Rule 36 from Tariff 13 (file name: P P Tariff 13 Rule 36) which gives the general rules for furnishing refrigerator cars. Part 2 of the rule deals specifically with SFRD and PFE served railroads and their ability to refuse to furnish for loading, or accept in interchange, private cars which are to be used at or are bound for a specifically defined western territory (see Part 2 Section C) with other than perishable cargo. Meat reefers are OK, as are private cars with perishable freight requiring protection. This seems to imply that when these rules were followed (assuming no special agreements are made between car owners or other AAR arrangements) if you saw a private reefer other than a PFE or SFRD car on the west coast, it would have come there hauling a perishible cargo. It also seems to imply that the car would not be loaded for an intra-area load, or for a perishable load heading east which would be loaded within the protected area. I would appreciate others reading this rule and letting me know if my interpretation is correct. John Hile
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Re: Cranberries
Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
Roger Hinman wrote:
The bulk of the New England cranberry bogs are in former New Haven territory which was a FGE member; FGE had a fairly large pool of cars to draw on; I'm not aware of FGE contracts with either PFE, SFRD; that's a question for Bill WelchRoger, both the PFE retired managers I interviewed mentioned that FGE had an "agreement" with PFE to share cars when practical. What that may have meant in specific cases, I don't know. At the very least, I'm sure it meant that peak harvest seasons for each donor company were excluded. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroad history
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Re: Cranberries
Roger Hinman <rhinman@...>
The bulk of the New England cranberry bogs are in former New Haven
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territory which was a FGE member; FGE had a fairly large pool of cars to draw on; I'm not aware of FGE contracts with either PFE, SFRD; that's a question for Bill Welch Roger Hinman
On Dec 20, 2007, at 2:57 PM, Richard Hendrickson wrote:
On Dec 20, 2007, at 10:37 AM, Anthony Thompson wrote:Greg Martin wrote:andProduct reaching the LA markets were likely seen in PFE or ATSFthesome WFEX cars (likely in that order) based on demand. Some mightas
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Re: Cranberries
Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
Richard Hendrickson wrote:
I share Tony's skepticism about what he aptly terms "an interesting speculation." Obviously, many SFRD and PFE reefers went to New England with loads of western produce, and their owners would have been happy to have them sent back west loaded with cranberries as opposed to having them returned empty.I can't speak for SFRD on this, but it's not true for PFE in peak harvest season--it was far more important to get the empties back to their own shippers, and westbound loads were most certainly NOT PFE's focus. But the cranberry season is outside the peak PFE harvest season, so I would agree with Richard on this particular case. But there is no evidence in the SFRD files of any formal pool service agreement, and certainly not of an agreement that required SFRD to provide cars for this traffic. Nor would have such an agreement been needed; since perishable traffic was much heavier eastbound than westbound, there were doubtless empty PFE and SFRD reefers readily available in the area during the Cranberry harvest season.I think this is correct for New England, but I was mostly responding to Greg's suggestion that SFRD reefers might have been used for the Oregon cranberry harvest. I'm pretty skeptical. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroad history
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Re: Cranberries
Richard Hendrickson
On Dec 20, 2007, at 10:37 AM, Anthony Thompson wrote:
Greg Martin wrote:I share Tony's skepticism about what he aptly terms "an interesting speculation." Obviously, many SFRD and PFE reefers went to New England with loads of western produce, and their owners would have been happy to have them sent back west loaded with cranberries as opposed to having them returned empty. But there is no evidence in the SFRD files of any formal pool service agreement, and certainly not of an agreement that required SFRD to provide cars for this traffic. Nor would have such an agreement been needed; since perishable traffic was much heavier eastbound than westbound, there were doubtless empty PFE and SFRD reefers readily available in the area during the Cranberry harvest season. Here again, as always when we're talking about reefer traffic, it's necessary to specify the date; foreign road reefers would have been more likely to be loaded with cranberries between 1942 and 1948, when the federal mandate was in effect that placed all refrigerator cars in a single pool, than before or after that period, when the railroads preferred to load the cars they owned or, in this case, leased from FGE. Richard Hendrickson
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Re: Helper Service- Morrell Reefers
Richard Hendrickson
On Dec 20, 2007, at 9:26 AM, Bob Chaparro wrote:
Can anyone provide some help for Vic?There's no way to respond to this request without knowing what time period Vic models, as well as more details about the decal sets he found. Morrell was perpetually in receivership and, owing to its weakened financial condition, not only operated reefers under its own MRX reporting marks but also, at various times, leased cars from Union Refrigerator Transit under MRUX reporting marks and from the Mather Stock Car Co. under MORX reporting marks. All of these cars were forty foot RSMs, so basing a model on an Armour or Swift car (mostly thirty-six foot reefers) would obviously be a mistake. Furthermore, the Morell cars were not at all alike in many respects and, in addition, stenciling styles differed from one car owner to another and from one era to another. It is essential to know what reporting marks are in the decal sets as well as what form the Morrell lettering/logo is in and what the dimensional data shows. It might then be possible to determine which prototype cars to model. Once that is determined, I probably have photos which would be helpful. Richard Hendrickson
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Re: Helper Service- Morrell Reefers
joe binish <joebinish@...>
GeneGreen's book on Reefers, published by Morning Sun, has few shots of wood sheathed Morrell cars.
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Joe Binish
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Chaparro" <thecitrusbelt@...> To: <STMFC@...> Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:26 AM Subject: [STMFC] Helper Service- Morrell Reefers Can anyone provide some help for Vic?
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Re: Cranberries
Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
Greg Martin wrote:
Product reaching the LA markets were likely seen in PFE or ATSF and some WFEX cars (likely in that order) based on demand. Some might question the SFRD cars with cranberries, but it make perfect sense as I am sure the folks at Western Fruit Express would request that the Santa Fe supply their own cars into the pool to supply their markets, or at?least allow their car to be reloaded towards home roads?once unloaded with fresh Navel?Oranges that ended up in the PNW, equipment sharing was part of the marketing exchange game.This is an interesting speculation and it would be nice to find evidence. I personally doubt if it happened this way, as the WFE people were responsible to their own roads and would have preferred their own cars. Certainly in other markets served by SFRD and PFE there was no such "market pool" for particular crops, even if such pools did exist for other products. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroad history
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Re: Cranberries
Greg Martin
Jerry and all,
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To answer part of your question, the New Haven was part of Fruit Growers Express and I would expect that?the vast majority?of the crop was shipped in FGEX (or members equipment) if it were destined for markets that they served. Evidence of this can be found in many shots of?New Haven yards.?If a portion of the crop were to go to markets (read as end users) not served by member roads(FGEX/BREX/WFEX) then those roads would likely have supplied cars for their receivers. But reading a bit on the industry it was fairly well spread out into Wisconsin (served by likely BREX and NWX), Oregon (the Bandon Dunes, Coos Bay area SP served) and Washington State (likely served by WFEX, NP and MLW roads) to distribute in their own markets. Product reaching the LA markets were likely seen in PFE or ATSF and some WFEX cars (likely in that order) based on demand. Some might question the SFRD cars with cranberries, but it make perfect sense as I am sure the folks at Western Fruit Express would request that the Santa Fe supply their own cars into the pool to supply their markets, or at?least allow their car to be reloaded towards home roads?once unloaded with fresh Navel?Oranges that ended up in the PNW, equipment sharing was part of the marketing exchange game. Canadians had their production from British Columbia and Quebec so I? would look for product in those markets in their own cars, but with the vast majority of thier population being within 100 miles of the border some US cars might end up in the mix if they were exporting into the US markets. ? Greg Martin
-----Original Message-----
From: Jerry Dziedzic <jerdz@...> To: STMFC@... Sent: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 7:02 am Subject: [STMFC] Cranberries I find that L&HR handled 250-400 cars per year of cranberries originating on the New Haven in 1946-1950. This comes from L&HR annual traffic reports. It appears that these were fresh cranberries. One of the reports explains that loadings were down that year because market conditions resulted in berries being attracted to canning operations. A major shipper named is American Cranberry Exchange, half or more of the total. No location is given. I assume that this traffic was seasonal, timed between harvest, Thanksgiving, and Christmas. Does anyone have more information? Was this handled in reefers? Whose? What other connecting roads handled New Haven berries? How much was the total of berry traffic? May as well say a few things more and get them off my chest: I'm looking forward to getting bogged (drum roll) down in detail. Thank you, berry, berry much. Jerry Dziedzic Pattenburg, NJ ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com
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