Date   

westward reefers

ed_mines
 

I've always wondered why Erie and Lackawanna had their own small fleets
of leased reefers with so many empties leaving the New York city area.

I know Erie's cars were used for bannanas. There are probably more
models of the Erie reefer than there ever were of actual cars.

I have photographic proof of those Erie reefers - there's a nice clear
photo in a Bernice Abbott softcover book.

Ed


Re: Cranberries-Proof of the cranberries is in the eatin'

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

My point, of course, was not so much about cranberries...or the lack of them...but, rather, that by far the most common consist of PFE reefers returning to the West was...air.

It is interesting perhaps that non organic materiel seems to have been more common than organic going west. I'm also a bit surprised at the spuds going west. I should also note that the sample provided by the Fraley information is a very small sample but a real sample nontheless.

Mike Brock


Re: Cranberries-Proof of the cranberries is in the eatin'

Larry Jackman <Ljack70117@...>
 

Why not? My beautiful NYC Jewish wife served them all the time. The year around. One thing you can say for Jewish people is they know how to eat. MmmmmmGood
Thank you
Larry Jackman
ljack70117@...
Boca Raton FL 33434
I want to die in my sleep like
my grandfather did, not screaming
like the other people in his car.

On Dec 21, 2007, at 1:39 PM, Anthony Thompson wrote:
. We don't have a cranberry in sight in March or April,
either. <g>

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history




Yahoo! Groups Links



Re: Cranberries-Proof of the cranberries is in the eatin'

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Mike Brock wrote:
Using the theory that the proof of the puddin' is in the eatin' I decided to take a look at the consists of PFE, SFRD and FGE reefers in about 17 WESTBOUND UP trains passing between Laramie and Green River, WY between March 16, 1949 and April 22, 1949. As the results show . . . Not a cranberry in sight.
Um, this is neither when the cranberries are harvested, nor (at least in my family) when they're eaten--think Thanksgiving and Christmas. We don't have a cranberry in sight in March or April, either. <g>

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: 1904 Library of Congress Film

Larry Kline
 

The top level web page for these films is:
http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/browse/ListSome.php?format=Motion+Picture

There are 20 films for Westinghouse and Westinghouse Air Brake
and many more listed under other topics.

Larry Kline
Pittsburgh, PA

--- In STMFC@..., "Kurt Laughlin" <fleeta@...> wrote:

Note the corrected link below. . .

That's the East Pittsburg(h) Works in East Pittsburgh/Turtle Creek. The
camera was running on the PRR.

KL
.
----- Original Message -----
From: RichBeau
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 8:43 AM
Subject: [STMFC] 1904 Library of Congress Film


Stumbled across this 2-part 1904 video in the Library of Congress of
the Westinghouse Works in Western PA. There's a couple of interesting
things about this; 1) it's taken from somewhere on a moving train, and
2) if you pay attention there's some great views turn-of-the-century
freight cars.

http://memory.loc.gov/mbrs/westhpp/2237s1.mpg

http://memory.loc.gov/mbrs/westhpp/2237s2.mpg

Enjoy!
--Rich Beaubien
Bolton MA


For Sale HO scale Intermountain, Red Caboose, and IMWX

ogdentowebercanyon
 

I have posted some for sale items on trainorders at the link below.
You do not need a membership to view. Lots of Intermountain, Red
Caboose, IMWX. All steam era of course. PRR, UP, CNW, SP, CN, C&),
etc...


http://www.trainorders.com/classifieds/view.php?1709



Thanks,
Jason


Re: Cranberries-Proof of the cranberries is in the eatin'

Tom Madden <tgmadden@...>
 

Mike Brock wrote:

Using the theory that the proof of the puddin' is in the eatin' I
decided to take a look at the consists of PFE, SFRD and FGE reefers
in about 17 WESTBOUND UP trains passing between Laramie and Green
River, WY between March 16, 1949 and April 22, 1949.
[snip]

I'm assuming gware is glass ware but I have no idea what mchy is.
Machinery??

Tom Madden


Re: Cranberries

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

Posted by: "John Hile" I did, however, upload a pdf scan to the STMFC file area of Rule 36 from Tariff 13 (file name: P P Tariff 13 Rule 36) which gives the general rules for furnishing refrigerator cars. Part 2 of the rule deals specifically with SFRD and PFE served railroads and their ability to refuse to furnish for loading, or accept in interchange, private cars which are to be used at or are bound for a specifically defined western territory (see Part 2 Section C) with other than perishable cargo. Meat reefers are OK, as are private cars with perishable freight requiring protection.

This seems to imply that when these rules were followed (assuming no special agreements are made between car owners or other AAR arrangements) if you saw a private reefer other than a PFE or SFRD car on the west coast, it would have come there hauling a perishible cargo. It also seems to imply that the car would not be loaded for an intra-area load, or for a perishable load heading east which would be loaded within the protected area.

I would appreciate others reading this rule and letting me know if my
interpretation is correct.
==================

From a legal point of view, there is a problem with that interpretation. Every railroad had a common carrier obligation to accept in interchange any load tendered to the origin road on a legal bill of lading, routed via the receiving road and loaded in accordance with applicable AAR rules for the type of load. You couldn't refuse a load because it was a particular car type or mark carrying a wrong commodity.

When short of box cars, it was not unusual for eastern roads to use PFE and other reefers for forwarder traffic to the west coast. I saw that done on the NYC on the west side.

I wonder if that language that John refers to was more pertinent to acceptance of empty private line cars in interchange. BTW the fact that a rule existed didn't necessarily mean that it was enforceable or that penalties, if any, were sufficient to dissuade a railroad from misusing a car in order to avoid loss of revenue..


Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478


Re: Cranberries-Proof of the cranberries is in the eatin'

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Mike Brock wrote:
"Using the theory that the proof of the puddin' is in the eatin' I
decided to take a look at the consists of PFE, SFRD and FGE reefers
in about 17 WESTBOUND UP trains passing between Laramie and Green
River, WY between March 16, 1949 and April 22, 1949. <<snip>> ...the
data probably represents one in about 40 trains. Not
a cranberry in sight."

March-April is definitely off-season for cranberries. Harvest season
for cranberries is in late September-early October:
http://www.umass.edu/cranberry/cranberry/seasons.shtml


Ben Hom


Cranberries-Proof of the cranberries is in the eatin'

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Using the theory that the proof of the puddin' is in the eatin' I decided to take a look at the consists of PFE, SFRD and FGE reefers in about 17 WESTBOUND UP trains passing between Laramie and Green River, WY between March 16, 1949 and April 22, 1949. As the results show, by far the most common consist was air...MT. I don't know if anyone would be surprised to see spds..potatoes...traveling west but 3 cars had them. Also...cabbage? I'm assuming gware is glass ware but I have no idea what mchy is. Anyhow, yes, this is a very small sample. The frt trains analyzed are only those that conductor Fraley rode and on a given day UP ran about 20 westbound frt trains. Fraley seems to have worked west early in the day and back east later that day. He then took off the next day. So, the data probably represents one in about 40 trains. Not a cranberry in sight.


PFE
syrup-1
gware-4
mdse-10
mchy-1
MT-122
meat-1
spds-3
boxs-1
beer-1
cabbage-1
butter-1

SFRD-
32634 meat to pocotello
mt-1
spds-1
mdse-2
beer-1

FGE-beer-2
mdse-1

Mike Brock


Re: 1904 Library of Congress Film

Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
 

Note the corrected link below. . .

That's the East Pittsburg(h) Works in East Pittsburgh/Turtle Creek. The camera was running on the PRR.

KL
.

----- Original Message -----
From: RichBeau
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 8:43 AM
Subject: [STMFC] 1904 Library of Congress Film


Stumbled across this 2-part 1904 video in the Library of Congress of
the Westinghouse Works in Western PA. There's a couple of interesting
things about this; 1) it's taken from somewhere on a moving train, and
2) if you pay attention there's some great views turn-of-the-century
freight cars.

http://memory.loc.gov/mbrs/westhpp/2237s1.mpg

http://memory.loc.gov/mbrs/westhpp/2237s2.mpg

Enjoy!
--Rich Beaubien
Bolton MA


Re: Marketing Agreements & Contracts (was: Cranberries)

John Hile <john66h@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., tgregmrtn@... wrote:


Marketing agreements and contract were private and protected from
the public.
Unless, of course, the agreement became public through litigation...
See: Tank Car Corp. v. El Dorado Terminal Co., 308 U.S. 422 (1940) at
http://supreme.justia.com/us/308/422/case.html

Or became subject to ICC regulation...
For example: the Freight Traffic Red Book has examples of special
multi-car (trainlot) rates applied for and approved on a case-by-case
basis...one being bauxite from Mobile, AL to Vancover, WA, effective
June 20,1940.


John Hile


1904 Library of Congress Film

RichBeau <RichBeau@...>
 

Stumbled across this 2-part 1904 video in the Library of Congress of
the Westinghouse Works in Western PA. There's a couple of interesting
things about this; 1) it's taken from somewhere on a moving train, and
2) if you pay attention there's some great views turn-of-the-century
freight cars.

http://memory.loc.gov/mbrs/westhpp/2237s2.mpg

http://memory.loc.gov/mbrs/westhpp/2237s2.mpg

Enjoy!
--Rich Beaubien
Bolton MA


Re: Cranberries-Proof of the cranberries is in the eatin'

Charles Hladik
 

Mike,
I think that "mchy" is machinery.
Have a MERRY CHRISTMAS and eat a lot of cranberries.
Chuck Hladik



**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
(http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)


Re: Cranberries

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Greg Martin wrote:
First of all if we look for paper to verify the use of foreign line cars in reloading or loading application we are not likely to find it.
Fine. That's why I interviewed people rather than counting on finding paper. But remember, Greg, absence of paper likewise does not prove there WAS an agreement.

Tony, your right the SP would not likely?request or reload?an ATSF car?for an online move, but I wonder how PFE management would view several carloadings that destine for someplace like Albuquerque, NM and furthermore, why would the Santa Fe want to pay mileage to PFE for a move?from Albuquerque with an empty?dead head back? Why?would?PFE want to loose a car offline for perhaps two weeks or more in the middle of a harvest?
Sorry, you're not making sense. The railroads HAD to pay mileage to the refrigerator car operators whether the "wanted to" or not. And we've already agreed that cranberries are NOT harvested in the peak seasons for the growing territories of ATSF and PFE.
No, SP did not "reload ATSF cars," as it was PFE's responsibility to supply cars on-line to both UP and SP perishable shippers. And ample testimony from those who did the work is that PFE and SFRD simply did not use each other's cars. Period. You can rationalize from your car distribution experience all you want, but those are the facts from that era.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: HO scale EJ&E Box Car decals

Rob & Bev Manley
 

Elden,
I went to Larsen's Hobby yesterday for orner Bill's birthday sale / celebration. I found some ( maybe 3) Champ HN-58 White steam era roadname sets. They have 2 versions of the CHICAGO OUTER BELT rectangle framed logo and 2 sizes of the more contemporary double framed and a "AROUND NOT THROUGH" map with E.J.& E. and spelled out reporting marks and numerals. $3.

I also found about 6 or so Kevin Piper / Rail Graphics sets for the 8ft door car. They are in Orange for the green car and he has a little data sheet. Those are complete sets and I have uses rail graphics sets that I bought for some Q rolling stock that are still great after 10 years.

For any other decal hunters, he has a number of GN sets. I also spotted some original RC X29s and Branchline kits.
You can reach Bill at
Larsen Hobby, 2571 E Lincoln Hwy Ste 5
New Lenox, IL 60451 (815) 485-1991

Merry Christmas,
Rob Manley

----- Original Message -----
From: Gatwood, Elden J SAD
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 6:41 AM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: HO scale EJ&E Box Car decals


Rob;

Thanks for the info! I will look for one.

I was also surprised about the 1952 date. It seems awfully early for such a
colorful scheme. I will keep after this and let you know what I find.

Thanks,

Elden

________________________________

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Rob
Manley
Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2007 12:31 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: HO scale EJ&E Box Car decals

Elden,
I have one of the split Orange & Green cars. I think Desplaines Hobbies did
that as a custom run. 1952 eh? I thought that would have been a later 50's
scheme.
Rob Manley

----- Original Message -----
From: Gatwood, Elden J SAD
To: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, December 14, 2007 6:32 AM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: HO scale EJ&E Box Car decals

Rob;

Thanks very much for all the info!

I will look for that set. I was reading a few of the references, and saw one
that said the split green-over-orange scheme with billboard EJ&E and the
banner herald on the left was introduced in 1952, which would be a great set
for a lot of modelers, but you look through the decal catalogs and offerings,
and it is amazing how many pretty common, or at least popular, box car scheme
have not been done (at least well), in comparison with all these oddball
one-of-a-kind schemes that folks have done.

One could make a sideline out of doing good decals for things like the
numerous B&O, EJ&E, NYC, PRR, RI, WAB classes (and other RRs), that have not
been done, particularly if one were to build the car and present it in a
magazine (and get everyone drooling).

Thanks again,

Elden Gatwood

________________________________

From: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of
Robert MANLEY
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 4:42 PM
To: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: HO scale EJ&E Box Car decals

Elden,
Walthers also had a "one size fits all" set of freightcar decals. I can't
remember exactly what they had in thier set but I remember it didn't have the
Jumbo EJ&E or the correct single line version of thier herald. They also
looked like they were rubber stamped. I was going to letter up a Robins Rail
PS 50'er. Oh well, out of era anyway.
Try Larsen Hobbies in New Lenox, IL for anything J,except the 3 mini-kits I
bought him.

Happy Modeling,
Rob Manley

----- Original Message ----
From: "Gatwood, Elden J SAD" <Elden.J.Gatwood@...
<mailto:Elden.J.Gatwood%40sad01.usace.army.mil>
<mailto:Elden.J.Gatwood%40sad01.usace.army.mil> >
To: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2007 1:59:46 PM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: HO scale EJ&E Box Car decals

Rob;

Thanks very much for the reply!

I now realize that in my haste, I was not very clear about what I was looking
for, which is the decals in HO for the lettering schemes following the bigger
"map" herald of which you speak (and which Sunshine provided in their
mini-kit and old EJ&E USRA steel rebuild).

The ones I specifically would like to find are the large billboard letter
schemes in either orange on green over orange, or vice versa, the earlier of
which has the small "around not thru.." banner herald, And the latter ones of
which only have the big billboard letters.

There are a number of pictures of these cool schemes, but unless you have a
mini-kit or like to bash things (shorty 8-foot Superior door...ends. ..body)
you would not have an accurate car.

Perhaps these guys just have never been done...

B&LE did a lot of coil shipment on pallets in these 8' door box cars, like
the P&WV with its AC&F 8'-door cars, and I would also be interested in who
else might have done this.

Thanks for looking into it!

Elden Gatwood

____________ _________ _________ __

From: STMFC@yahoogroups. com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Rob
Manley
Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 4:26 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups. com
Subject: [STMFC] Re: HO scale EJ&E Box Car decals

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups. com <mailto:STMFC% 40yahoogroups. com> , "Gatwood,
Elden J SAD "
<Elden.J.Gatwood@ ...> wrote:
>
Eldon,
Sunshine did these cars as a mini kit in both the boxcar red and
Green w/ Orange lettering schemes. There is a model brown car on the
STMFC site. I heard Martin doesn't sell the mini kits through the
mail but I saw quite a few of them at Naperville this past year.You
get new ends, sill,door and frame parts to upgrade a Branchline car.

Happy Hunting,
Rob Manley

.> Guys;
>
>
>
> Does anyone know of a source for (good) HO decals for EJ&E box
cars in the
> 1952+ orange and green billboard schemes? Particularly the 10' IH
8' door 40
> footers?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> Elden Gatwood
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


AAR's "Rules Governing the Loading of Commodities on Open Top Cars"

PBowers <waiting@...>
 

I have some AAR manuals for sale.

I have the AAR's "Rules Governing the Loading of Commodities on Open Top Cars" for 1942 and 1945. $55 each These are the full document, 420+ pages, not the smaller specific loading pamplets.

I also have AAR Interchange rule books for 1953, 1958 and 1985. and Maintenance of Brakes and Train Air Signal Equipment 1942. Prices in order of mention $15, $15. $10 and $7.50

If interested, please contact me off-list.

Peter Bowers


Re: Apex Tri-Lok modeling in HO

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Dec 20, 2007, at 5:58 PM, David wrote:

Hello-

I am looking for an HO scale Apex Tri-Lok running board.

I have found several sources for "Apex" running boards but nothing
specifically "Apex Tri-Lok". Is it safe to assume that Apex Tri-Lok is
usually shortened to just Apex or are there other more common Apex
running boards?
What we commonly call Apex running boards were what Apex called
"Tri-Lok" running boards, that being their trade name for the process
by which the metal components were assembled. AFAIK Apex never made
any other type of running board, but even if they did it was not widely
used and the Tri-Lok design was the one that was applied to thousands
of freight cars from the mid-1930s until running boards began to be
phased out in the '60s.

Richard Hendrickson


Apex Tri-Lok modeling in HO

David
 

Hello-

I am looking for an HO scale Apex Tri-Lok running board.

I have found several sources for "Apex" running boards but nothing
specifically "Apex Tri-Lok". Is it safe to assume that Apex Tri-Lok is
usually shortened to just Apex or are there other more common Apex
running boards?

None of the catalog images are clear enough for me to make out the
details for myself.

Thanks
David Snook
Wichita, KS


Re: Cranberries

Greg Martin
 

All,



First of all if we look for paper to verify the use of foreign line cars in reloading or loading application we are not likely to find it. Marketing agreements and contract were private and protected from the public.?In conversations with several marketing guys (now retired and as you might expect working as consultants and one old head ex-Q ex-BN car applicator) this was the way it was explained to me.



When marketing wanted to increase market share the first hurdle of new business was to go to car management and bring the idea to them, ultimately they made the program happen or die. Marketing would explain the opportunity, "we have this piece of business on the Santa Fe in the LA Basin to move a product (this case cranberries, it could be apples) into LA Markets and capture some SP market share..." The reply was always, "Okay, so where do we get the cars?" "We are tapped out on reefers and if the Santa Fe wants the business they will have to agree to?supply the cars or allow us to reload their empties out of Hoquim, Markem,or South Bend to make the program work." With heads down and lower lips rolled down the marketing guys head back to their desk... However if the Santa Fe car management agrees to a portion of the car supply the program goes forward.?If cars of a particular type were long because of? short harvest or in betwen harvest then car management?might agree, it was simply a matter of asset management.

Why would car management that serves the origin want to supply a?car offline to cover the business for the Santa Fe(or any foreign road)? Cars and especially?high?value cars like reefers?were always tight, all through the 40's, 50's and 60's. Now if there was a new class of car displacing another?similar perhaps they could be added to the service, but by the 50's?many older car?of like types were being scrapped or rebuilt but the fleet never grew on a one to one basis.?

We have had long discussion regarding?car management on this list, and I realize it might be difficult for some outside the business to understand asset management, but railcars were the railroads most valuable asset, other than people.?

Tony, your right the SP would not likely?request or reload?an ATSF car?for an online move, but I wonder how PFE management would view several carloadings that destine for someplace like Albuquerque, NM and furthermore, why would the Santa Fe want to pay mileage to PFE for a move?from Albuquerque with an empty?dead head back? Why?would?PFE want to loose a car offline for perhaps two weeks or more in the middle of a harvest? And it might not be cranberries, it could be pear from southern Oregon, or hops from the upper Willamette Valley, these were all considerations for good car management. As one retired Milwaukee marketing guy told me we have to give you a car, that is mandated, but we never said when... But he admits that this was part of the ultimate death of his railroad...

Greg martin?

-----Original Message-----
From: Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 10:37 am
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Cranberries







Greg Martin wrote:
Product reaching the LA markets were likely seen in PFE or ATSF and
some WFEX cars (likely in that order) based on demand. Some might
question the SFRD cars with cranberries, but it make perfect sense as
I am sure the folks at Western Fruit Express would request that the
Santa Fe supply their own cars into the pool to supply their markets,
or at?least allow their car to be reloaded towards home roads?once
unloaded with fresh Navel?Oranges that ended up in the PNW, equipment
sharing was part of the marketing exchange game.
This is an interesting speculation and it would be nice to find
evidence. I personally doubt if it happened this way, as the WFE people
were responsible to their own roads and would have preferred their own
cars. Certainly in other markets served by SFRD and PFE there was no
such "market pool" for particular crops, even if such pools did exist
for other products.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history





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