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Re: WWII War bond cars

Schuyler Larrabee
 

-----Original Message-----
From: ed_mines
I have photos of a red, white & blue Swifts reefer which I think has
that slogan, A URTX R,W,& B URTX tank car possibly with that slogan and
a R,W & B Erie 4900 series caboose which may have had the slogan.
I don't know about your partic'l'r photo, Ed, but the ERIE did have such a caboose.

SGL


Re: WWII War bond cars

ed_mines
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Michael Bishop" <goldrod_1@...> asked:
Did any other railroads have cars with "Buy War Bonds" slogans?

I have photos of a red, white & blue Swifts reefer which I think has
that slogan, A URTX R,W,& B URTX tank car possibly with that slogan and
a R,W & B Erie 4900 series caboose which may have had the slogan.

Ed


Re: Per Diem

Jack Burgess <jack@...>
 

Tony wrote:

I'm well aware that plenty of roads had practices like this. But
remember, in the steam era most of us are interested in, it was $2 a
day. You can do the math on the "large profit item."
True, although it would be equivalent to around $25 per day today.

YV brakeman Bob Lunoe told me that, when he worked on the YV in 1942, they
would take a foreign box car in good condition and use it for LCL service
along the line (which ran from the SP and ATSF interchanges to Yosemite
National Park and the end of the line). The headend brakemen (which he was)
had to unload LCL along the line from the Local and the cars they liked for
this service had tight floors (essential when using a hand truck) and doors
that were easy to open and close. Photos that Bob took in that year show
nice, new SP box cars being used in this service, spotted right behind the
engine for easy access by the headend brakeman. However, this resulted in
that particular box car spending the night at El Portal at the end of the
line after that run and therefore subject to per diem charges. LCL records
from 2-3 years later show that LCL was being carried in YV box cars. That
suggests that the YV decided it was cheaper to transfer all of the LCL to a
YV box car than to use one of the box cars that it arrived on. At probably
$.50/hour or less for a workman, it would certainly pay to transfer it and
get the foreign cars back to the SP or ATSF...

Jack Burgess
www.yosemitevalleyrr.com


Re: Per Diem

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Paul Catapano wrote:
Interstate Railroad, I'm told, would collect a group of MTY N&W hoppers, fill them at tipples on the Interstate's line, and haul them back off the property before the "Midnight" Per Diem deadline. I know on some small railroads Per Diem is a large profit item. The late Tim Gilbert probably could provide statistics.
I'm well aware that plenty of roads had practices like this. BUt remember, in the steam era most of us are interested in, it was $2 a day. You can do the math on the "large profit item."

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Per Diem

Paul Catapano
 

Interstate Railroad, I'm told, would collect a group of MTY N&W hoppers, fill them at tipples on the Interstate's line, and haul them back off the property before the "Midnight" Per Diem deadline. I know on some small railroads Per Diem is a large profit item. The late Tim Gilbert probably could provide statistics.

Paul Catapano
Littlerock Subdivision
Atlantic Inland Railway Co.

"All it takes to start an insane asylum
is a big room and the right kind of people"


Re: WWII War bond cars

eabracher@...
 

In case no one listed them. Pacific Electric had cars painted for buying
war bonds.

eric


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Re: WWII Buy War Bonds cars

Bud Rindfleisch
 

Hi, I have a kit of a C&EI Buy War Bonds car (DesPlaines Hobbies
special run S scale)Does anyone how long that scheme possibly lasted
before repaint? Thanks,
Bud Rindfleisch


Re: Per Diem

Bill McCoy
 

Demurrage charges were assessed on the basis of the ICC 4 Demurrage
tarriff nationally for all carriers. Deviation from these charges had
to be authorized by publication of alternate demurrage charges in a
rate tarriff, common for discounted incentive rates published on
grain, etc. Standard demurrage was assessed on cars after the second
0700 after placement on the customer's siding or after placement on a
public delivery (team track) and notification by the railroad that
the car was placed. Weekends and holidays were not cargable unless
one chargable day had accrued. If the customers track was full or out
of service thew car was"constructively placed" and the free time
began. Standard demurrage was $5.00/day (0700-0700) and after 5
days "penalty demurrage" of $10.00/day was charged escalating to
$30.00. I can't remember the time spread. Customers could enter in to
an "average agreement" with the carrier where on a monthly basis
early releases (before the first 0700) could be used a credit against
the standard ($5.00) demurrage days.

There was always much carping about demurrage charges especially
among the customers who kept lousy records. The railroad kept
excellent records. The railroad was compelled to collect every dime
of these charges or be expected to pay a hefty fine along with the
customer for an Elkins Act violation (a defacto rebate for bidden by
the Elkins act.) One of the biggest fines assessed was against Ford
and the WP for failure to collest appropriate demurrage and switching
carrages at Milpitas, CA. It was in the millions.

Merry Christmas,

Bill McCoy
Jax, FL

--- In STMFC@..., Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

Jon Miller wrote:
Was not per diem paid by businesses if they kept the car
longer
than the assigned load/unload time?
That's called "demurrage," Jon, and there was an allowance of
so
many days to unload, without penalty to the receiving business.
Beyond
that, they would be billed for a daily charge, the "demurrage." The
per-diem charges were not directly charged to shippers or
receivers,
but were part of the railroad's cost of moving the car.
My understanding is that different types of receivers would
have
different "free-day" allowances, but that three days was a common
number. Someone on the list is sure to know more and provide
details on
this.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: WWII War bond cars

Tom Madden <tgmadden@...>
 

While not a War Bonds car, Accurail offers (or offered) their two-bay
hopper lettered for the Interstate RR with a "Coal goes to War" slogan.
The box label says "1945 WW II COMERATIVE [sic] CAR".

Tom Madden


Re: Per Diem

MDelvec952
 

In a message dated 12/24/2007 3:10:38 PM Eastern Standard Time,
thompson@... writes:

Jon Miller wrote:
Was not per diem paid by businesses if they kept the car longer
than the assigned load/unload time?
That's called "demurrage," Jon, and there was an allowance of so
many days to unload, without penalty to the receiving business. Beyond
that, they would be billed for a daily charge, the "demurrage." The
per-diem charges were not directly charged to shippers or receivers,
but were part of the railroad's cost of moving the car.


============

Tony's right on demurrage. As for per diem, some roads did try to reduce
it. The Lehigh & Hudson River, for example, was a point-to-point bridge line
with just a few major on-line businesses. Its schedules in the steam days and
through its inclusion into Conrail were such that none of the bridge traffic
was on its railroad at midnight, thus keeping per diems down a minimum
(sticking its interline partners with it).

Demurrage still continues today and, in fact, BNSF is sending a big new
ripple through the industry by charging demurrage on its cars while they are
travelling on other railiroads, claiming loss of use while delayed elsewhere.

Mike Del Vecchio



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Re: WWII War bond cars

Rupert & Maureen <gamlenz@...>
 

I haven't found any photos of CB&Q freight cars decorated for War Bonds promotions, but there was a loco and an inspection engine decorated in the First World War to encourage the purchase of War Bonds, and at least two chair cars in WW2.

Rupert Gamlen
Auckland NZ

----- Original Message -----
From: "George W Simmons" <GEORGESIMMONS@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 5:14 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: WWII War bond cars


--- In STMFC@..., "Michael Bishop" <goldrod_1@...> wrote:

I have read through the old posts about "Buy War Bonds" and I
gathered
that Santa Fe had boxcars, C&EI had boxcars and PRR had hoppers and
boxcars lettered for this service. Did any other railroads have such
cars? Thank you for any help.
While not a freight cars, I have seen a picture of a KCS locomotive
with a buy war bonds painted on the tender.

George Simmons
Dry Prong, LA




Yahoo! Groups Links



Re: WWII War bond cars

George Simmons
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Michael Bishop" <goldrod_1@...> wrote:

I have read through the old posts about "Buy War Bonds" and I
gathered
that Santa Fe had boxcars, C&EI had boxcars and PRR had hoppers and
boxcars lettered for this service. Did any other railroads have such
cars? Thank you for any help.
While not a freight cars, I have seen a picture of a KCS locomotive
with a buy war bonds painted on the tender.

George Simmons
Dry Prong, LA


WWII War bond cars

Michael Bishop <goldrod_1@...>
 

I have read through the old posts about "Buy War Bonds" and I gathered
that Santa Fe had boxcars, C&EI had boxcars and PRR had hoppers and
boxcars lettered for this service. Did any other railroads have such
cars? Thank you for any help.

Michael


Re: Per Diem

Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:


Yes, the midnight rule did apply, but no one made "special"
midnight moves if they cost much extra; you were only saving a few
dollars. Of course, if cars were to move to an interchange track
sometime during the night anyway, you would try and schedule it for
pre-midnight if it was convenient. But I think modelers tend to greatly
exaggerate the importance of this detail.
Not exactly true, Tony, although likely more common on small roads
where car hire was a greater portion of expenses, and managing it was
easier to do...

For may years the South Shore (C.S.S.& S.B.) ran a nightly freight
that was known as the "Per diem" Called at Shops (Michigan City, IN)
in the late evening, its job was to run west to Burnham Yard just over
the state line in Illinois, gather up all the "east" cars that the
other industry jobs had brought in throughout the day, then run like
the wind to have them on the NYC interchange before midnight. The
South Shore was, of course, relying on the fact that it's larger
connections couldn't manage their delivery times as closely to keep
the number of foreign road cars on their line at midnight lower that
was average during the day, and thus pay less than their full share of
car hire.

Dennis


Re: Per Diem

Larry Jackman <Ljack70117@...>
 

On the Un Pac at Salina and Topeka KS it was a must to get interchange cars on to the interchange By 11:59 PM. One night we had so many cars for the Mo Pac that they all could not fit on the interchange so the engine forman left them all coupled up and hanging on to out tracks. When the Mo Pac pulled them the pulled every thing then turn in a time slip for switching on the the Un Pac. They collected and the forman never did that again.
By the way at least on the Un Pac and John Santa there is no time called 12PM or 12AM. Every thing is 11:59PM, 12:01AM, 11:59AM or 12:01PM. No such thing as Noon or Mid-night.


Thank you
Larry Jackman
ljack70117@...
Boca Raton FL 33434
I want to die in my sleep like
my grandfather did, not screaming
like the other people in his car.

On Dec 24, 2007, at 2:59 PM, Anthony Thompson wrote:

Armand Premo wrote:
Can anyone explain Per Diem?How were the rates assessed,collected and
assigned?
The rates were uniform nationally, and each railroad paid its
accounts owed to other roads monthly.

As a car moved from one road to another did the per diem charges move
with the car, or was the originating road still responsible for
payment of these fees? Cars generally were moved by midnight to avoid
another day's per diem charges.
Yes, the midnight rule did apply, but no one made "special"
midnight moves if they cost much extra; you were only saving a few
dollars. Of course, if cars were to move to an interchange track
sometime during the night anyway, you would try and schedule it for
pre-midnight if it was convenient. But I think modelers tend to greatly
exaggerate the importance of this detail.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history




Yahoo! Groups Links



Re: Per Diem

Chet French <cfrench@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

Armand Premo wrote:
Can anyone explain Per Diem?How were the rates assessed,collected
and
assigned?
The rates were uniform nationally, and each railroad paid
its
accounts owed to other roads monthly.

As a car moved from one road to another did the per diem charges
move
with the car, or was the originating road still responsible for
payment of these fees? Cars generally were moved by midnight to
avoid
another day's per diem charges.
Yes, the midnight rule did apply, but no one made "special"
midnight moves if they cost much extra; you were only saving a few
dollars. Of course, if cars were to move to an interchange track
sometime during the night anyway, you would try and schedule it for
pre-midnight if it was convenient. But I think modelers tend to
greatly
exaggerate the importance of this detail.

Often the clock would stop at 11:55pm for about 20 minutes if an
interchange was being made where there were no "witnesses". Most
conductors would show 11:55 or 11:59pm when the cars were actually
delivered between midnight and, maybe 12:15am.

Also if cars were offered for interchange before midnight and the
receiving road could not accept them for various reasons, usually the
delivering road would show them interchanged before midnight and the
cars would be left on a track other than the interchange track.

Merry Christmas to all.

Chet French
Dixon, IL


Re: Per Diem

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Jon Miller wrote:
Was not per diem paid by businesses if they kept the car longer than the assigned load/unload time?
That's called "demurrage," Jon, and there was an allowance of so many days to unload, without penalty to the receiving business. Beyond that, they would be billed for a daily charge, the "demurrage." The per-diem charges were not directly charged to shippers or receivers, but were part of the railroad's cost of moving the car.
My understanding is that different types of receivers would have different "free-day" allowances, but that three days was a common number. Someone on the list is sure to know more and provide details on this.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Per Diem

Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

Was not per diem paid by businesses if they kept the car longer than the assigned load/unload time?

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time stopped in 1941
Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: Per Diem

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Armand Premo wrote:
Can anyone explain Per Diem?How were the rates assessed,collected and assigned?
The rates were uniform nationally, and each railroad paid its accounts owed to other roads monthly.

As a car moved from one road to another did the per diem charges move with the car, or was the originating road still responsible for payment of these fees? Cars generally were moved by midnight to avoid another day's per diem charges.
Yes, the midnight rule did apply, but no one made "special" midnight moves if they cost much extra; you were only saving a few dollars. Of course, if cars were to move to an interchange track sometime during the night anyway, you would try and schedule it for pre-midnight if it was convenient. But I think modelers tend to greatly exaggerate the importance of this detail.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Per Diem

George Simmons
 

--- In STMFC@..., "armprem1" <armprem@...> wrote:

Can anyone explain Per Diem?
Per Diem was a daily rental fee for railroad owned cars on roads other
than the owing road. The ATSF would pay per diem for say KCS cars but
not for UTLX.

How were the rates assessed,collected and assigned?

ORER shows forms in the rear for reporting cars interchanges between
locations. Railroads would keep records of when cars were
interchanged. In the time frame of this list per diem was paid based
upon where the car was located at midnight. This was one of the
mutlitude of items that clerks did. Whether the charges were paid
daily/weekly/monthly, I am not sure.


As a car moved from one road to another did the per diem
charges move with the car, or was the originating road still
responsible for payment of these fees?
The road on which the car was physically located were responsible for
the payment while on it rails


Cars generally were moved by
midnight to avoid another day's per diem charges.Armand Premo
Correct for the timeframe of this group.

Merry Christmas,

George Simmons
Dry Prong, LA

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