Date   

Re: MC 17000-18999 (MDT reefer class M4-3)

Mark Mathu
 

They were used in condensed milk service between Evangeline Milk
Company in Sturgeon Bay and First National Stores...
Sorry: for clarification, that should be Sturgeon Bay, Wisc.


MC 17000-18999 (MDT reefer class M4-3)

Mark Mathu
 

Can anyone supply basic information (year built, builder) for
Merchants Despatch Transportation reefers class M4-3, built as part of
Michigan Central 17000-18999? I would be interested in the year
built, and any notable modifications made over the years.

Any advice of close matches (or stand-ins) for modeling these cars
would be appreciated, too –- in any scale.

My interest stems from the fact that the Ahnapee & Western RR purchased
five of these reefers in 1948 (A&W #3000 on 1948.05.07 and A&W
#3001-3004 on 1948.11.16). A&W #3002 was retired in 1950, and all
were out of service by 1954. They were used in condensed milk service
between Evangeline Milk Company in Sturgeon Bay and First National
Stores in Sommersville, Mass.
__________
Mark Mathu
Whitefish Bay, Wis.
The Green Bay Route: http://www.greenbayroute.com/


Re: Per Diem and Demurrage

Jack Burgess
 

Schuyler asked:

2) OK so there was a huge amount of employment for accountants to
keep all this pretty straight.
But did the railroads actually exchange money on a daily basis,
or even monthly? For most roads
I have a copy of the form that the YV used for this purpose...pretty simple.
The form is subtitled "Agent's Report of Cars Received, Forwarded and on
hand for twenty-four hours, ending at midnight". Columns are to be filled in
for Received and Forwarded cars with individual columns for Initial, Number,
Kind, From, and Loaded With. Each station agent had to complete this form on
a daily basis. Obviously, it would be a big task for a large yard but for
small railroads, each station agent tracked the cars under his/her control
and reported them daily. From that, the home office could determine the per
diem owed or due. Remember that this same information was tracked for cars
in the yard in order to fulfill requests for empties, etc.

Jack Burgess
www.yosemitevalleyrr.com


Re: Per Diem and Demurrage

Larry Jackman <Ljack70117@...>
 

Per Diem has NOTHING to do with the Consignee. Per Diem is Paid by RR A to RR B for each day RR B's car is on RR A. It has NOTHING to do with if the car is loaded, Mty, being loaded or being unloaded.
Thank you
Larry Jackman
ljack70117@comcast.net
Boca Raton FL 33434
I was born with nothing and
I have most of it left.

On Dec 26, 2007, at 8:40 PM, Schuyler Larrabee wrote:

I appears to me you have it right, Peter, but I have a couple more questions:

1) once delivered, did per diem continue while the consignee had their three days to unload the car?

2) OK so there was a huge amount of employment for accountants to keep all this pretty straight.
But did the railroads actually exchange money on a daily basis, or even monthly? For most roads
wouldn't this pretty much all work out in the wash? (Yeah, I know, NP never got their own cars
back). Or was it something that actually did result in bank transfers every 30 or 90 days or what?

SGL

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Peter Weiglin
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 6:49 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] Per Diem and Demurrage

So let's see if we have this straight, for the non-expert:

Per Diem is the fee that railroads pay to each other for the use of cars owned by the
payee railroad. In the STMFC days, that was $2.00 per day. The paperwork must have been
fascinating in the pre-computer age; calculating how much railroad A owed to Railroads B
through Z for the cars on Railroad A's property.

Demurrage is the fee that customers who receive shipments pay to the delivering railroad
if they keep a freight car for longer than the "grace period" for unloading.

Two different terms, often mistakenly used interchangeably.

Peter Weiglin
Amelia, OH



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Re: What Roads Had This Car?

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Rod Miller wrote:
Most of the models are described by the features that the model depicts. For example, I have in front me a 50 foot box car described on the box label as: "A.A.R. Double Door Box Car, Murphy Roof, Youngstown Doors, Improved Dreadnaught Ends, and Wooden Roof Walk."
I assume that's a straight-panel Murphy roof. But the combination of features seems anachronistic to me. In 1944, the wooden running board was banned for new construction, and that's about the time the Improved Dreadnaught end came in. Of course a model photo would help, particularly since the number and arrangement of side panels varied from road to road, but I think there may be a narrow range of accurate prototypes for what you describe.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: What Roads Had This Car?

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Rod,

If you can post photos of the models in question, it'll help us find
you good answers on what they really are. You've got us on a snipe
hunt right now, and all you're going to get is speculation without any
hard facts.


Ben Hom


What Roads Had This Car?

Rod Miller
 

Starting IIRC in the 1980s, Precision Scale Co. imported brass freight
cars in O scale, possibly in HO too. In that era, all models were
unpainted. At the time I bought the models, my purchase was based upon
liking the model, and I gave little thought to identifying who owned
the prototype.

Most of the models are described by the features that the model
depicts. For example, I have in front me a 50 foot box car described on
the box label as: "A.A.R. Double Door Box Car, Murphy Roof, Youngstown
Doors, Improved Dreadnaught Ends, and Wooden Roof Walk."

I realize that the above description doesn't completely identify the
model. An inspection of the model yields some additional info: the
doors are 8 foot, the inside height is 10 feet, the door openings are
staggered, and the car sides are steel.

As I pull these models off the shelf so they can be painted and placed
on my layout, most times I bump into the question of What is the
correct road/paint scheme for this model?

I understand that PSC does not have/provide this information.

For the model at hand, a Google search using the end of the box words
produced no hits.

I can leaf through my books looking for a car whose description matches
the detail on the box label. That looks like a time-consuming and
tedious process that may produce no result.

Searching the group's archives for:

double 50 murphy "improved dreadnaught end"

produced no hits, although searching for the phrase IDE produced 247
hits. I am left with the feeling that searching the group's archives
will resemble a manual search of my books, but with the end result
of "prototype owners unknown" being arrived at quicker.

It seems there are people on this group who have the answers to
questions like mine on the tip of their tongue, and who generously
provide answers. If it is possible to avoid coming to this group on a
car-by-car basis by doing my own research on-line, I'd prefer to do
that. Can someone please tell me how to do that?

Thanks for your help!

Rod


Re: Per Diem and Demurrage

Schuyler Larrabee
 

I appears to me you have it right, Peter, but I have a couple more questions:

1) once delivered, did per diem continue while the consignee had their three days to unload the car?

2) OK so there was a huge amount of employment for accountants to keep all this pretty straight.
But did the railroads actually exchange money on a daily basis, or even monthly? For most roads
wouldn't this pretty much all work out in the wash? (Yeah, I know, NP never got their own cars
back). Or was it something that actually did result in bank transfers every 30 or 90 days or what?

SGL

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Peter Weiglin
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 6:49 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] Per Diem and Demurrage

So let's see if we have this straight, for the non-expert:

Per Diem is the fee that railroads pay to each other for the use of cars owned by the
payee railroad. In the STMFC days, that was $2.00 per day. The paperwork must have been
fascinating in the pre-computer age; calculating how much railroad A owed to Railroads B
through Z for the cars on Railroad A's property.

Demurrage is the fee that customers who receive shipments pay to the delivering railroad
if they keep a freight car for longer than the "grace period" for unloading.

Two different terms, often mistakenly used interchangeably.

Peter Weiglin
Amelia, OH


Re: WWII War bond cars

Charlie Vlk
 

The XM32 painted up for the Lincoln Freedom Train is the closest one I can think of.....it might have been postwar, however, I don't remember the dates involved.
Charlie Vlk


John Harris

ed_mines
 

A few days ago the forum had some criticism of PRR enthusiasts.

John Harris was (is?) both an employee and fan of the PRR. I have at
least a couple dozen of his steam era freight car prints.

Mr. Harris was a lot more than a railroad enthusiast. The wisdom in his
hand written letters taught me a lot.

Rich Burg wrote me that Mr. Harris had his own farm in addition to
working for the PRR. They may have emt face to face.

I think Rich would describe himself as a Pennsy freak and a freight car
freak. If you don't know who Rich is google - "Rich Burg" railroad.

Too bad Rich isn't on this list.

Ed


Per Diem and Demurrage

Peter Weiglin
 

So let's see if we have this straight, for the non-expert:

Per Diem is the fee that railroads pay to each other for the use of cars owned by the payee railroad. In the STMFC days, that was $2.00 per day. The paperwork must have been fascinating in the pre-computer age; calculating how much railroad A owed to Railroads B through Z for the cars on Railroad A's property.

Demurrage is the fee that customers who receive shipments pay to the delivering railroad if they keep a freight car for longer than the "grace period" for unloading.

Two different terms, often mistakenly used interchangeably.

Peter Weiglin
Amelia, OH


Re: Per Diem

Guy Wilber
 

Tony Thompson wrote:

But remember, in the steam era most of us are interested in, it was $2 a
day.

Nov. 1, 1920 $1.00 per day
Feb. 1, 1945 $1.15
Jun. 1, 1947 $1.25
Sept. 1, 1947 $1.50
Nov. 1, 1949 $1.75
May 1, 1952 $2.00
Aug. 1, 1953 $2.40

Between May 1, 1935, and June 30, 1937, The so-called "Average Per Diem
Plan" was in effect for box cars (XM). More fully covered in various
publications including the Freight Traffic Red Book which lists the Per Diem and
Demurrage Rules and Penalties.

Regards,

Guy Wilber
West Bend, WI





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Re: WWII War bond cars

Mark Mathu
 

George W Simmons wrote:

While not a freight cars, I have seen a picture of a KCS locomotive
with a buy war bonds painted on the tender.
Likewise, the tender of GB&W #401 (2-8-0) had "BUY WAR BONDS" on its
sides during the war.
__________
Mark Mathu
Whitefish Bay, Wis.


Re: Per Diem

Bill Vaughn
 

Remember the car only had to be placed and offed for
interchange to get it off you per diem.

Bill Vaughn


--- Dennis Storzek <destorzek@mchsi.com> wrote:

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Thompson
<thompson@...> wrote:


Yes, the midnight rule did apply, but no
one made "special"
midnight moves if they cost much extra; you were
only saving a few
dollars. Of course, if cars were to move to an
interchange track
sometime during the night anyway, you would try
and schedule it for
pre-midnight if it was convenient. But I think
modelers tend to greatly
exaggerate the importance of this detail.
Not exactly true, Tony, although likely more common
on small roads
where car hire was a greater portion of expenses,
and managing it was
easier to do...

For may years the South Shore (C.S.S.& S.B.) ran a
nightly freight
that was known as the "Per diem" Called at Shops
(Michigan City, IN)
in the late evening, its job was to run west to
Burnham Yard just over
the state line in Illinois, gather up all the "east"
cars that the
other industry jobs had brought in throughout the
day, then run like
the wind to have them on the NYC interchange before
midnight. The
South Shore was, of course, relying on the fact that
it's larger
connections couldn't manage their delivery times as
closely to keep
the number of foreign road cars on their line at
midnight lower that
was average during the day, and thus pay less than
their full share of
car hire.

Dennis




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Re: WWII War bond cars

Merlyn Lauber
 

Also a PRR X-29 was produced by Middle Division/Atlas O with Buy War Bonds lettering above the reporting marks.

Merlyn Lauber

----- Original Message -----
From: eabracher@aol.com
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 4:35 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: WWII War bond cars


In case no one listed them. Pacific Electric had cars painted for buying
war bonds.

eric

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Re: WWII War bond cars

Larry Smith
 

Several Railroads had "Buy War bonds" on their cars, although not preelant as the Santa Fe, C&EI and PRR. In addition PRR and Interstate had Coal goes to War on their hopper. Swift had three Buy War Bond cars and the Virginian, while had the Minuteman with buy war bonds steciled on the doors of their BX-10 boxcars.

Larry Smith


Re: CB&Q Rolling Stock

Rupert & Maureen <gamlenz@...>
 

Armand

"Everywhere West" was first applied in 1937.

Regards

Rupert Gamlen
Auckland NZ

----- Original Message -----
From: "armprem1" <armprem@surfglobal.net>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 1:58 PM
Subject: [STMFC] CB&Q Rolling Stock


When was the slogan" Everywhere West" first applied to CB&Q rolling
stock? Armand Premo




Yahoo! Groups Links





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CB&Q Rolling Stock

armprem
 

When was the slogan" Everywhere West" first applied to CB&Q rolling
stock? Armand Premo


Re: Per Diem

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Schuyler Larrabee wrote:
Uh, Tony, let's remember what $2.00 was then. It was a LOT more than $2.00 today. A LOT more. A couple hundred cars, thousands over a large railroad, that was Real Money then.
Actually, I know quite well, Schuyler, as when I was doing the PFE book I had the thought to convert all car costs to "current" dollars. This is of course not straightforward and in any case would only apply as of the year of completing the book, so I gave it up; but in the meantime learned a lot about relative rates of inflation in various eras and the conversion to the present day.
As I said from the beginning, of course it you were transferring cars to an interchange at night anyway, you would try and do so before midnight. But calling an extra crew or otherwise changing work patterns, where extra costs are incurred to save that "Real Money," wasn't done. Employees of that day will tell you the same.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Dollar value

Rupert & Maureen <gamlenz@...>
 

Richard

The reduced value of the dollar (and increase in the price of imported kits/RTR) could be the encouragement needed to stimulate local model manufacturing industry. It also makes my next trip to the BRHS Annual Meet more affordable!

Merry Christmas and try to have a great New Year

Rupert Gamlen
Auckland
(where the NZ $ is only worth US $0-70)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Hendrickson" <rhendrickson@opendoor.com>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2007 9:24 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Per Diem

Yeah, Schuyler, but at the rate the dollar is going down the drain
relative to almost anyone else's currency, $2.00 will soon be worth
about what it was in the 1940s thanks to....
And you can bet that the cost of
model railroad stuff that's made overseas will go up substantially in
2008 as the dollar continues its free fall >
On that happy note, Merry Holiday of your Choice to all.

Richard Hendrickson

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