Date   

Re: Rivets

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Ed Mines wrote:
I don't want to argue with Dennis Storzak who has done so much for the hobby but I think .010" is too big for "rivets" on box car sides.
Where does it say that they are "rivets" anyway? Could they be bolts?
In wood-sheathed cars and stock cars, yes, they often are bolts. So you make a good point, Ed, that modelers sometimes refer to "rivets" on wood attachments. But on steel car sides, they are rivets. And yes, they were applied hot.

Do you really need 1/2" diameter rivets to hold sheet metal (or thin metal plates) to a frame? And so many of them? . . . There are bolts with 1 inch diameter heads on a railroad underpass I see. There aren't too many of them either and the service is much more severe than holding on freight car siding.
Loading may be greater, but a freight car experiences bending and twisting in a way that bridges do not, so you cannot directly compare the fastener needs; and the numerous rivets on the car sides are to seal the seam of the panels, not just to attach them together. It's probably true that they would be adequately ATTACHED by a rivet every foot, but the seal would not be very good under that twisting, etc.

Anthony Thompson
Dept. of Materials Science & Engineering
University of California, Berkeley
thompsonmarytony@sbcglobal.net


Rivets

ed_mines
 

I don't want to argue with Dennis Storzak who has done so much for the
hobby but I think .010" is too big for "rivets" on box car sides.

Where does it say that they are "rivets" anyway? Could they be bolts?
Is there more than one type of rivet?

Could you imagine heating up all of those "rivets" to assemble a
freight car side? Or is there a rivet applied cold?

Do you really need 1/2" diameter rivets to hold sheet metal (or thin
metal plates) to a frame? And so many of them? With sheet metal in
particular freight would break through the side before a 1/2 bolt would
break.

There are bolts with 1 inch diameter heads on a railroad underpass I
see. There aren't too many of them either and the service is much more
severe than holding on freight car siding.

Ed


Re: SAL 36500-36699 hoppers

destron@...
 

Thanks for the clarification.

In the '53 reprint it lists it as the whole number series, 36500-36699,
indicated to have 2 (3? Can't recall offhand and am not at home) cars
total.

Frank Valoczy
Vancouver, BC

Frank Valoczy wrote:
"Curious if anybody knows which roadnumbers of the SAL's 36500-36699
series hoppers (USRA twins, I believe?) were still on the roster in
1951?"

One clarification - SAL was not allocated any USRA twin hoppers. These
were copies built to the same dsign in the 1920s. I don't have a 1951
ORER, but will check my 1950 ORER later this evening.


Ben Hom




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Re: SAL 36500-36699 hoppers

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Frank Valoczy wrote:
"Curious if anybody knows which roadnumbers of the SAL's 36500-36699
series hoppers (USRA twins, I believe?) were still on the roster in
1951?"

One clarification - SAL was not allocated any USRA twin hoppers. These
were copies built to the same dsign in the 1920s. I don't have a 1951
ORER, but will check my 1950 ORER later this evening.


Ben Hom


Rivets: Size

Dennis Storzek
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Madden" <tgmadden@...> wrote:

Here's a formula from Wayne Long:

The "size" of the rivet (in inches) is the outside diameter of the
shaft which goes into the two or more holes in the metal pieces
being riveted together. The diameter of the rivet head, where it
bears on a metal surface is size x 1.5 + 1/8". The head at its
highest point off the same metal surface is:
size x 1.5 + 1/8" x 0.425.

Apply this information to a standard 1" rivet and you get:

Shaft = 1" O.D.

head = 1 5/8" O.D.
Tom, List,

This got me curious, so I did some digging. Machinery's Handbook has
the ANSI specifications for solid steel rivets with button heads (at
least my mid-1980's edition has them). Wayne Long's formula is right
on for 1/2" rivets, but gives slightly large values for smaller rivets
and slightly small values for larger rivets. For instance, a 1" ANSI
button head rivet has a 1 3/4" head diameter. However Wayne's formula
is certainly close enough for our modeling, as the error in HO scale
would be less than .001". For those who care, here are the sizes of
the heads for ANSI Standard button head rivets, and their HO scale
equivalents:

SIZE HEAD DIA. HO SCALE

1/4 .460" .0055"
3/8 .684" .008"
1/2 .875" .010"
5/8 1.094" .0125"
3/4 1.312" .015"
7/8 1.531" .0175"
1 1.750" .020"

I might point out that .020" dia. is the smallest size separate
styrene rivet that Tichy makes, and it models the head of a 1" rivet
in HO scale.

So, what size was used where? That's a rather had question to answer,
and took some searching. Typically rivet sizes aren't specified on
general arrangement drawings; one needs to go down to the component
drawings level to find them, and few of these are published. I went
back to that set of AAR drawings from the Field Manual / Interchange
Rules we were discussing the other day, and gleaned size
specifications from the call-outs on the roof, end, and door drawings.
Here is what I found:

The smallest I found was 1/4", used on the lap eams of the AAR flat
roof; similar to the PRR X29 roof, but note this is NOT the PRR
specification;

The rivets that attach the roof flange to the top of the end are
called out as 3/8";

The rivets that attach the ends of the roof seam caps to the side
plate, and side sheathing to the car posts in the door area are called
out as 1/2", all the rivets on the sides are drawn similar, but I
could not find a spec. other than at the door posts;

One of the ends called for 11/16" holes along its bottom edge, this
would be the clearance hole for 5/8" rivets;

Striker castings were attached with 3/4" rivets;

The largest rivets I found were from a different source, the ARA
(later AAR) standard for splicing steel center sills, which called for
7/8" rivets.

Nowhere did I find any 1" rivets specified, indicating that the Tichy
product is only good for bridge rivets in HO scale.

As an aside, in my design work at Accurail I've always used .010" -
.011" for rivet heads on car sides, slightly larger for frame rivets,
and these are indeed very close to scale for 1/2" rivet heads. I
suspect any rivets that look much smaller, the designer misinterpreted
the specified nominal size of the rivet for the actual diameter of the
head.

Dennis


Re: Kodachromes & FGE Yellow

boyds1949 <E27ca@...>
 

Interesting discussion on old Kodak films. Unfortunately, no one
had even dreamed of Photoshop back in 1978 (or the room sized
computer you would have needed to run it back than) when I had access
to Mr. Rice's Kodachrome originals. The only recourse was to try to
adjust with color printing filters. That made them presentable for
projection but it may have done more harm than good so far as
recovering the original colors now. I will dig the copies out, scan
and see what can be done. I had always attributed the greyish dark
brown color of the freight cars to the limitations of the film.
Based on previous discussions, that may be the way cars looked in the
1940's.

The orignal question concerning the color of the IM FGE cars got lost
in the discussion over color matching in general. Bottom line to me
is that once you paint the hardware to 1940's practice and weather,
the color looks close enough.

John King






--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

Aley, Jeff A wrote:
For hints on correcting those magenta slides, see
http://www.scantips.com/color.html . Basically, his point is not
that
the slide is too red; it's that there's too little blue and
green, so
you get better results by boosting those two than you do by
reducing
the red (which is what anyone would instinctively do).
Yes, quite true, and I think anyone who fiddles with various
color
corrections finds this out pretty quickly. The non-artist's first
instinct in this area is often wrong.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Color fun was FGE Yellow Color

Charlie Vlk
 

This is a problem that keeps on coming up.

The funny thing about "correct" colors is most of the time the frame of reference by the vast majority of consumers is
another company's model (correct or not) or "Color Guides" printed in China from decades old color prints or slides
(or even colorized B&W prints!!!) color matched using Chinese or Japanese ink systems and printed by people who
never saw the prototype!!

Drift cards are a good start and reproducing these valuable source documents is a huge problem.

Prototype
Lighting Conditions
Viewing Distance
Sky / Weather Conditions
Sun Angle
Weathering (dirt, etc. film)
Paint Fading / Deterioation
Varying Paint Formulations
Different Vendors
Changes in Specifications over time
Paint Finish

Model
Scale of Color
Lower Intensity (than the Sun) Lighting Conditions on the Layout
Different Temperature Light Sources
Cumulative errors in matching colors from sub-masters
Color Perception of Individuals involved in the Research/Design/Manufacturing/Approval/Production processes
Color Perception Memory
Scale of Paint (pigment size....evident in Metalics and composites like Graphites
Paint Finish (largely not addressed in models beyond Gloss/Flat)
Sprayed paints vs. Tampo printed inks
Order of application of paints over varying color substrates

...and a high percentage of Males and even some Females have some degree of Color Blindness


Charlie Vlk
Railroad Model Resources


Re: AC&F tank car types

Carl J. Marsico <Carlmarsico@...>
 

Off of the top of my memory, CNW had Type 21 tanks for company service. The CNWHS has a good photo archive you could check for pictures, and I'm certain Northwestern Lines covered the topic a few years ago when the CNWHS special run of the P2K tanks was released (which I missed)

CJM

----- Original Message ----
From: "asychis@aol.com" <asychis@aol.com>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 5, 2008 8:01:28 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Re:AC&F tank car types

Does anyone know if the Type 21 or Type 27 tanks cars, such as
InterMountain' s or P2k's were used by certain railroads for company service cars? Photos?

Thanks,

Jerry Michels

************ **Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.
(http://music. aol.com/grammys/ pictures/ never-won- a-grammy? NCID=aolcmp00300 0000025
48)


Re: injection molded windows for cabooses

Charles Hladik
 

Ed,
I think Tichy just moved to God's country to be away from all the
fallout from freight cars.
Chuck Hladik
Rutland Railroad
Virginia (also God's Country) Division



**************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025
48)


Re: AC&F tank car types

Garth Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Jerry,

Most certainly. As in fuels of several types, water, weed killer, waste oil, even ferryboat bilge water (the latter was on the WP, but it was a 10K AC&F Type 7). If you have a specific road in mind, maybe someone can be more helpful.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

asychis@aol.com wrote:

Does anyone know if the Type 21 or Type 27 tanks cars, such as InterMountain's or P2k's were used by certain railroads for company service cars? Photos?
Thanks,
Jerry Michels


Re: AC&F tank car types

Spen Kellogg <spenkell@...>
 

Dave Nelson wrote:
I see AC&F produced their type 7 car around 1907, their type 21 car around
1921 and their type 26 car around 1926. And while I've not heard of any
other "types" it's clear they continued to make tank cars ;) over the years.
So what came after the type 26?
Dave,

I'm not aware of a Type 26 (could be my ignorance), but there was a Type 27. Did you hit the wrong key?

Spen Kellogg


Re: AC&F tank car types

asychis@...
 

Does anyone know if the Type 21 or Type 27 tanks cars, such as
InterMountain's or P2k's were used by certain railroads for company service cars? Photos?

Thanks,

Jerry Michels



**************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025
48)


Re: Jack Delano's Kodachromes

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Aley, Jeff A wrote:
For hints on correcting those magenta slides, see http://www.scantips.com/color.html . Basically, his point is not that the slide is too red; it's that there's too little blue and green, so you get better results by boosting those two than you do by reducing the red (which is what anyone would instinctively do).
Yes, quite true, and I think anyone who fiddles with various color corrections finds this out pretty quickly. The non-artist's first instinct in this area is often wrong.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Color fun was FGE Yellow Color

W. Lindsay Smith <wlindsays2000@...>
 

Before the spectrograph, it was difficult to measure colors. Texure
and lighting futher caused differrences. When I was a painter's
laborer in Berkeley CA, it was common for the painter to mix the
colors. He added the tints to get the warmth and appearance he
wanted. In the shops the painters always wanted to make the color
better and added to the pot. One had me add black (soot) to the pot
when we were painting the sunny side of the building so that it would
look like the same color as the shaddy side. So the "standard" color
charts were guidance at best; and even then, the objects did not have
the same color. I think you are emulating the practice as you make up
the paint for old models.
My mother had a yarn shop before 1941 and I used to have to sort
skeins of yarn by dye lot because the colors varied. Even in the
1970s when I was buying Navy electronics, I would have discussions
about the black case color from job to job. Beauty and color are in
the eyes of the beholder.
Lindsay Smith
--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, James Eckman <ronin_engineer@...> wrote:

In addition to all the other fun involved our models, colors have a
size
as well! Just ask anyone who's bought paints from paint chips and
then
painted walls with it. Damn, too dark... is the usual problem. I
think
Mile and Larry hit it on the head, if it looks right on the layout,
it
is right. For early freight cars that are 'boxcar red' I usually
start
with burnt sienna and add white or black to taste. Burnt umber is
also a
good base color for freight cars that need a more muddy brown color.

Jim Eckman


Re: Jack Delano's Kodachromes

Aley, Jeff A
 

Mike and Tony,



For hints on correcting those magenta slides, see
http://www.scantips.com/color.html . Basically, his point is not that
the slide is too red; it's that there's too little blue and green, so
you get better results by boosting those two than you do by reducing the
red (which is what anyone would instinctively do).

You can't replace information that has faded away
completely, but you can do a heck of a lot if a little bit is still
there.



Regards,



-Jeff





________________________________

From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Anthony Thompson
Sent: Monday, February 04, 2008 10:42 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Jack Delano's Kodachromes



Mike Del Vecchio wrote:
The E6 process films -- Ektachrome, Agfa, Ansco, et. al. -- of the
1950s and '60s used organic materials as part of the color dye
formulae (formaldehyde), and so the images will ultimately fade,
discolor and dissapear even in cool dark storage over time.
Thanks for the good discussion, Mike. Just wanted to comment on
this part. I obtained copy slides from the DeGolyer of some of
Steinheimer's color from the 1950s, all Ansco, which had gotten to a
very deep magenta. It wasn't too hard to correct it in Photoshop, this
was back around 1997. When I told Dick about it, he said it was
impossible--he had tried every filter and filter combination in the
darkroom and could not correct the magenta. I was not successful in
explaining to him what Photoshop does and I'm not sure he believed me
<g>. But that kind of problem (prior to fading, of course) CAN be
corrected in the digital age.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
<mailto:thompson%40signaturepress.com>
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Jack Delano's Kodachromes

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Mike Del Vecchio wrote:
The E6 process films -- Ektachrome, Agfa, Ansco, et. al. -- of the 1950s and '60s used organic materials as part of the color dye formulae (formaldehyde), and so the images will ultimately fade, discolor and dissapear even in cool dark storage over time.
Thanks for the good discussion, Mike. Just wanted to comment on this part. I obtained copy slides from the DeGolyer of some of Steinheimer's color from the 1950s, all Ansco, which had gotten to a very deep magenta. It wasn't too hard to correct it in Photoshop, this was back around 1997. When I told Dick about it, he said it was impossible--he had tried every filter and filter combination in the darkroom and could not correct the magenta. I was not successful in explaining to him what Photoshop does and I'm not sure he believed me <g>. But that kind of problem (prior to fading, of course) CAN be corrected in the digital age.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Color fun was FGE Yellow Color

James Eckman
 

In addition to all the other fun involved our models, colors have a size as well! Just ask anyone who's bought paints from paint chips and then painted walls with it. Damn, too dark... is the usual problem. I think Mile and Larry hit it on the head, if it looks right on the layout, it is right. For early freight cars that are 'boxcar red' I usually start with burnt sienna and add white or black to taste. Burnt umber is also a good base color for freight cars that need a more muddy brown color.

Jim Eckman


Re: FGE Yellow Color

Larry Jackman <Ljack70117@...>
 

I agree with Tony but some of these guys writing on this subject were wanting EXACT colors and those were the ones I were directing my remarks to. Close but not exact.
Thank you
Larry Jackman
ljack70117@comcast.net
Boca Raton FL 33434
I was born with nothing and
I have most of it left.

On Feb 4, 2008, at 9:30 PM, Anthony Thompson wrote:

Larry Jackman wrote:
You missed what I said. No mater what the blueprints called for back
then you can not match it today. Even the 2nd batch back then did not
match the first batch. No mater what the light is.
Quite true, Larry, but we actually are not insisting on EXACT
paint matches. We do want to be in the right ballpark, and often the
prototype paint chip does give a starting point. As we have discussed
repeatedly on this list, this is less helpful for the darker colors,
but one can get into the right kind of range for color hue and tone
with the help of prototype info.
Many SP freight car purchase specifications include a list of
particular paint vendors, and specific color names from those vendors,
which were considered "acceptable" matches to the SP standard color
drift panel (from Bowles). But of course, as Larry points out, even
successive batches of paint in the same factory were not IDENTICAL, and
in any case the railroad was obviously willing to accept a certain
range of "correct" colors.
But let's not go from "impossible to match EXACTLY" to the
belief that "prototype color has no bearing on model colors." Just
tain't so, as far as I'm concerned.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history




Yahoo! Groups Links



Re: FGE Yellow Color

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Tony Thompson writes:

"We do want to be in the right ballpark, and often the
prototype paint chip does give a starting point."

I'll not argue against that. I mean...one has to start somewhere, of course. I will say that I think I could build an undec PFE reefer...let's say a Tichy R-40-? [ I'll do it as an R-40-4 ] and paint it with some color but not Daylight orange...in fact, no orange at all. I'll then weather it considerably and...just to add to the fun of this thread...I'll insert it into one of my PFE reefer trains with untold numbers of variations of Daylight orange due to weathering and fading [ matching the overall appearance of real PFE reefer blocks in 1953 ] and run it slowly through Dale Junction on my layout and see if anyone can determine which car it is.

"But let's not go from "impossible to match EXACTLY" to the
belief that "prototype color has no bearing on model colors." Just
tain't so, as far as I'm concerned."

I think prototype coloring DOES have a bearing. I'm certainly not going to start with GN blue on that PFE reefer. And, I'll paint a UP box car with Polyscale Oxide Red. But I don't care a bit how close Oxide Red matches a paint chip. As Dennis Storzek wrote, the sun produces quite a bit of variations through out its period of providing light so we can see the things whose colors we're so concerned about. The resulting perception variations are even more prevalent than the light variations due to untold numbers of factors including angle of the sun, cloudiness, dirt on the subject, etc. As I have mentioned before, I will always remember the time I was waiting for ex-C&O steam loco 2716 at Taccoa, GA, during an NS excursion. It was about 5PM, the sun was behind me and as the engine came backing down the track, it appeared very grey...perhaps a dark grey. And this engine was painted with a glossy black. I recall thinking...Those guys who say black will appear as a grey were right. The point is, I very much prefer to view models...and the real thing...with the light source behind, preferably as the sun might be positioned at...well...9AM or 5PM. Does this view accurately show the true color of the subject? Of course. And, so does a view seen at 12 noon, 2 PM, 11 AM in the rain, 3 PM and even midnight. And, of course, they're all different.

Last, I always go back to that Delano shot on the cover of the May 1992 MM. Here we see at least 5 different variations of colors of C&NW box cars in 1943. Now some might try to duplicate these colors by starting with a paint color matching a C&NW chip. I believe I could produce a similar set of variations using 5 different paint colors...none of them being based on any C&NW chip. OK...a good exercise for Prototype Rails 2009.

Mike Brock


Re: Jack Delano color photos

Schuyler Larrabee
 


About 30 years ago, the late Leonard Rice allowed me to borrow and
copy many of his color slides. The dates on these ranged from 1939
to the 1950's. As expected, the Ecktachromes were extremely faded
and of little value. Some of the Kodachrome slides looked like they
had been taken the day before, but many from the 1940's had a very
pronounced magenta cast. All were processed by Kodak.

John King
A friend of mine, a well-known rail author, has been for years working with old slides and
converting them to tiff images. Ektachromes do the blue shift thing, but he has more-or-less
figured out a straightforward process to Photoshopping them back to a very credible image. So, when
you say the Ektachromes were of little value, don't be quite so fast on that conclusion. Ditto for
the magenta.

SGL

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