Date   

Re: Rivets

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Kurt Laughlin wrote:
Tony, do you think that the "small" rivets (actual nomenclature for rivets under 1/2-inch) were driven hot? I would think that by WW II if not earlier they would be cold formed. (I have a photo somewhere of an M3 tank of 1941 vintage being assembled with an enormous riveter and bucking bar. The holes are 49/64 dia -.765 - so I imagine they were using 3/4-inch rivets, "large" in the terms of the trade.)
Cold-driven rivets are much stronger, while hot ones hold the seam tighter. Depends on what you want. With a tank, I can guess the priority <g>.
Certainly as late as the 1950s, PFE reefers were still assembled with hot rivets. I can't speak for freight car production in general. Ed Kaminski might know what AC&F practice was.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Rivets

Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
 

----- Original Message -----
From: Anthony Thompson

In wood-sheathed cars and stock cars, yes, they often are bolts.
So you make a good point, Ed, that modelers sometimes refer to "rivets"
on wood attachments. But on steel car sides, they are rivets. And yes,
they were applied hot.
----- Original Message -----

Tony, do you think that the "small" rivets (actual nomenclature for rivets under 1/2-inch) were driven hot? I would think that by WW II if not earlier they would be cold formed. (I have a photo somewhere of an M3 tank of 1941 vintage being assembled with an enormous riveter and bucking bar. The holes are 49/64 dia -
.765 - so I imagine they were using 3/4-inch rivets, "large" in the terms of the trade.)

KL


Re: injection molded windows for cabooses

Richard Townsend
 

I have used Grandt Line caboose windows.


Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, Oregon

-----Original Message-----
From: ed_mines <ed_mines@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 12:12 pm
Subject: [STMFC] injection molded windows for cabooses






Tichy has offered high quality injection molded work car windows
suitable for cabooses for about 15 years. The rectangular ones are too
big for my intended use.

My recollection is that some company offered smaller, similar quality
rectangular windows. I thought it was Tichy/CMA but they aren't listed
on their web site. Was it another company?

I see Tichy/CMA has a new home in NC. Has the company changed hands? I
hope they come out with some new castings. If a tarheel bought the
company maybe he'll come up with a Pratt truss casting for a single
sheathed box car to fit Red Caboose X29type cars. A similar Ulrich
metal casting fit Train Miniature X29s. Signature SAL and B&M cars
could be modeled with these combinations (the SAL car has a has a fish
belly underframe).

Ed Mines





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Re: biggest oversized rivets in HO

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

The HO cars with the most oversized "rivets" that I can recall is the JC passenger car kits. Athearn's gondola is a close second. You could use those ribs in O scale!
I'd put the MDC Harriman cars up against any competition for "most oversize HO rivets."

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


injection molded caboose windows

mjmcguirk@...
 

Ed,

Tichy is one company that makes them - he calls them "outfit car windows" - I can't access his web site from here, but he should have them available.

Afraid you won't see any new products from Tichy based on a "tarheel" acquisition - Don still owns the outfit - he and his wife built a home in North Carolina and moved there about two years ago.

Marty


Re: SAL 36500-36699 hoppers

Ian Cranstone
 

I had a quick look through my ORERs, and this particular series seems to have appeared between the July 1935 and July 1937 issues.

Ian Cranstone
Osgoode, Ontario, Canada
lamontc@...
http://freightcars.nakina.net
http://siberians.nakina.net

On 5-Feb-08, at 4:25 PM, John Golden wrote:

I'm just guessing here (a dangerous thing to do on this list) but
the cars in question may have come from the Georgia, Florida &
Alabama RR merger in 1927. If anyone has access to complete SAL
roster info by year, check if the cars were added between 1926 and
1928.

John Golden
Bloomington, IN

--- In STMFC@..., "Denis F. Blake" <dblake7@...> wrote:

The answer to this is yes. It was not until later in the 50's
that these
cars were off the roster and their numbers taken over by woodchip
cars.
Now, as a side note, that being said, these cars were rebuilt into
wet rock
phosphate cars toward the end of their lives.

Also, as Ben stated, the SAL was not allocated any cars. These
were
purchased 2nd hand by the Seaboard.

DB

----- Original Message -----
From: "benjaminfrank_hom" <b.hom@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 12:45 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: SAL 36500-36699 hoppers


Frank Valoczy wrote:
"Curious if anybody knows which roadnumbers of the SAL's 36500-
36699
series hoppers (USRA twins, I believe?) were still on the roster
in
1951?"

One clarification - SAL was not allocated any USRA twin
hoppers. These
were copies built to the same dsign in the 1920s. I don't have
a 1951
ORER, but will check my 1950 ORER later this evening.


Ben Hom




Yahoo! Groups Links





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9:44 AM



Re: injection molded windows for cabooses

Westerfield <westerfield@...>
 

Ed - We still purchase parts from Don. To contact him: don@.... - Al Westerfield

----- Original Message -----
From: ed_mines
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 2:12 PM
Subject: [STMFC] injection molded windows for cabooses


Tichy has offered high quality injection molded work car windows
suitable for cabooses for about 15 years. The rectangular ones are too
big for my intended use.

My recollection is that some company offered smaller, similar quality
rectangular windows. I thought it was Tichy/CMA but they aren't listed
on their web site. Was it another company?

I see Tichy/CMA has a new home in NC. Has the company changed hands? I
hope they come out with some new castings. If a tarheel bought the
company maybe he'll come up with a Pratt truss casting for a single
sheathed box car to fit Red Caboose X29type cars. A similar Ulrich
metal casting fit Train Miniature X29s. Signature SAL and B&M cars
could be modeled with these combinations (the SAL car has a has a fish
belly underframe).

Ed Mines


Re: SAL 36500-36699 hoppers

golden1014
 

I'm just guessing here (a dangerous thing to do on this list) but
the cars in question may have come from the Georgia, Florida &
Alabama RR merger in 1927. If anyone has access to complete SAL
roster info by year, check if the cars were added between 1926 and
1928.

John Golden
Bloomington, IN



--- In STMFC@..., "Denis F. Blake" <dblake7@...> wrote:

The answer to this is yes. It was not until later in the 50's
that these
cars were off the roster and their numbers taken over by woodchip
cars.
Now, as a side note, that being said, these cars were rebuilt into
wet rock
phosphate cars toward the end of their lives.

Also, as Ben stated, the SAL was not allocated any cars. These
were
purchased 2nd hand by the Seaboard.

DB

----- Original Message -----
From: "benjaminfrank_hom" <b.hom@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 12:45 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: SAL 36500-36699 hoppers


Frank Valoczy wrote:
"Curious if anybody knows which roadnumbers of the SAL's 36500-
36699
series hoppers (USRA twins, I believe?) were still on the roster
in
1951?"

One clarification - SAL was not allocated any USRA twin
hoppers. These
were copies built to the same dsign in the 1920s. I don't have
a 1951
ORER, but will check my 1950 ORER later this evening.


Ben Hom




Yahoo! Groups Links





--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.20/1260 - Release
Date: 2/5/2008
9:44 AM


Re: AC&F tank car types

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Feb 5, 2008, at 6:01 AM, asychis@... wrote:

Does anyone know if the Type 21 or Type 27 tanks cars, such as
InterMountain's or P2k's were used by certain railroads for company
service cars? Photos?
Jerry, the C&NW, FEC, M-K-T, N&W, and T&P all got new Type 21 10K gal.
four course tank cars from AC&F; I have either builder's or in-service
photos (and, in some cases, both). In addition, P&NW got Type 21 10K
three course tank cars in 1926. I also have in-service photos from the
1950s and later of Type 21 10K gal. four course tank cars on the GW,
MILW, SAL, and SOO, but I don't know whether those cars were purchased
new or acquired second hand.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Rivets: Size

Jason Greene <steamlocomotive290@...>
 

The mud ring rivets I have been driving at work are 7/8" rivets is this gives you an idea about what was used. I can't imagine a boxcar or gon or hopper would need much more than that...

Jason Greene
Steele, AL


Re: biggest oversized rivets in HO

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Ed Mines wrote:
"The HO cars with the most oversized "rivets" that I can recall is the
JC passenger car kits. Athearn's gondola is a close second."

Don't forget the Cannonball Car Shops Troop Sleepers - grapefruit-sized
rivets! This is doubly inexplicable as their Troop Kitchen cars were
actually tooled pretty nicely.


Ben Hom


Railroad Prototype Modelers-Valley Forge 2008

prr282
 

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Chairman


Re: Bronx freight houses

Charlie Vlk
 

There was an extensive article on the Bronx freight house in Railway Age sometime in the 1898-1904 period. The Philadelphia Free Public Library has 15 bound volumes
in their collection and I stumbled across the article while looking for other items....sorry, didn't note the page and volume as it wasn't of interest to me at the time.
I believe it has shown up in some Model Railroader publications and lately one of the trackwork suppliers (jigs or materials??) had photos and a trackplan of a layout they
were building....
Charlie Vlk


Re: Rivets

Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Dennis Storzek" <destorzek@...> wrote:


Machinery's Handbook gives this general rule for selecting rivet
sizes, and I quote:

"The rivet diameter D commonly falls between D=1.2 X &#8730;T and
D=1.4 X &#8730;T
where T is the thickness of the plate."
I guess Whahoo doesn't like displaying Bill Gates' square root symbol.
That should read "… 1.2 X the square root of T and 1.4 X the square
root of T."

Dennis


biggest oversized rivets in HO

ed_mines
 

The HO cars with the most oversized "rivets" that I can recall is the
JC passenger car kits.

Athearn's gondola is a close second. You could use those ribs in O
scale!

Remember the fantastic cars that Richard Hendrickson kitbashed from
those klunky gondolas? Talk about making lemonade.

Compare the ribs and rivets on those gons to the ones on Athearns 2
bay, ribbed hoppers. They should be about the same size.

Sometimes leaving rivets off HO models (or representing them with
printing) isn't too inaccurate.

Ed


PRR K8 bolt sizes

ed_mines
 

The 1941 CBC has a drawing for PRR K8 stock cars. It specifies 1/2
bolts.

The bolt head for models of these in HO should be about 9 mils.

Remember that a 20 mil (.020") "rivet" is 4 times bigger than a 10 mil
(.010") rivet.

Ed Mines


Re: Rivets

Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "ed_mines" <ed_mines@...> wrote:


Do you really need 1/2" diameter rivets to hold sheet metal (or thin
metal plates) to a frame? And so many of them? With sheet metal in
particular freight would break through the side before a 1/2 bolt would
break.

Ed,

As a rule, the size of the rivets is chosen based on the material
thickness to be joined. Bridges can use big rivets on wide spacing
because that material fastened is so thick. Freightcars use smaller
rivets on closer spacing because the material is thinner. Airplanes
use tiny rivets on really close spacing because the material is
thinner yet.

Machinery's Handbook gives this general rule for selecting rivet
sizes, and I quote:

"The rivet diameter D commonly falls between D=1.2 X &#8730;T and D=1.4 X &#8730;T
where T is the thickness of the plate."

The steel side sheets of the AAR standard boxcars I'm looking at the
drawings of are specified as .1". Using the extremes of the range
above, the calculated diameter of the rivet shanks should be between
.379", slightly over 3/8", and .443", slightly over 7/16". Therefore,
I would suppose that at least some cars could have been built using
3/8" rivets having 11/16" diameter heads. These would scale out to
.008 dia. in HO. However, as I said, the drawings I was looking at had
the side rivets drawn the same as the door post gusset rivets; they
just weren't specified. The ones that were had 7/8" dia. heads, which
scale to .010".

I just looked at a Standard Railway Equipment Co. drawing for an
Improved Dreadnaught end. It specifies "9/16" holes unless otherwise
specified." That's the clearance hole for a 1/2" rivet, which will be
covered with a 7/8" diameter head. Certain holes, where ladders,
grabs, and brackets will be attached are specified 11/16" for 5/8"
rivets. This makes sense, as IIRC all safety appliances must be
attached with either 5/8" bolts or rivets. The top flange of this end,
which is designed for a car with "ZU" eaves and overhanging roof
panels, is specified to have 7/16" holes, which would be the size for
3/8" rivets with 11/16" diameter heads. I also looked a the
fabrication drawing for a YSDCo. steel side, but it STILL doesn't
specify the rivet diameters; just the Part No. and Drg. No. for each
panel and post. I'd need those drawings to see what size rivet holes
are specified.

Dennis


Erie Q'Craft caboose kit

ed_mines
 

Anyone have any of these that they'd be willing to part with?

Half built (half destroyed) kits are fine if the castings are in good
shape.

Ed Mines


injection molded windows for cabooses

ed_mines
 

Tichy has offered high quality injection molded work car windows
suitable for cabooses for about 15 years. The rectangular ones are too
big for my intended use.

My recollection is that some company offered smaller, similar quality
rectangular windows. I thought it was Tichy/CMA but they aren't listed
on their web site. Was it another company?

I see Tichy/CMA has a new home in NC. Has the company changed hands? I
hope they come out with some new castings. If a tarheel bought the
company maybe he'll come up with a Pratt truss casting for a single
sheathed box car to fit Red Caboose X29type cars. A similar Ulrich
metal casting fit Train Miniature X29s. Signature SAL and B&M cars
could be modeled with these combinations (the SAL car has a has a fish
belly underframe).

Ed Mines


Re: SAL 36500-36699 hoppers

Chet French <cfrench@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "benjaminfrank_hom" <b.hom@...> wrote:

Frank Valoczy wrote:
"Curious if anybody knows which roadnumbers of the SAL's 36500-36699
series hoppers (USRA twins, I believe?) were still on the roster in
1951?"

One clarification - SAL was not allocated any USRA twin hoppers.
These
were copies built to the same dsign in the 1920s. I don't have a
1951
ORER, but will check my 1950 ORER later this evening.

Frank,

I'll do the checking for Ben. He's busy keeping the Navy afloat.
The July 1950 ORER shows 179 cars remaining, but you would need SAL
records to know the road numbers of the existing cars.

Chet French
Dixon, IL

125781 - 125800 of 195428