Date   

Railroad Prototype Modelers-Valley Forge 2008

prr282
 

A REMINDER:

Railroad Prototype Modelers-Valley Forge 2008
The Desmond Hotel & Conference Center
Malvern, PA (western suburb of Philadelphia)

March 28-29-30, 2008

40 different clinics, with more possible
Vendor's Room
Models Display Room
Home Layout Tours Sunday afternoon

For complete information, including a Timetable, Registration Form,
Clinics Listing, and Vendors, please visit our web site:

www.phillynmra.org/rpmmeet.html

Paul Backenstose
Chairman


Re: Bronx freight houses

Charlie Vlk
 

There was an extensive article on the Bronx freight house in Railway Age sometime in the 1898-1904 period. The Philadelphia Free Public Library has 15 bound volumes
in their collection and I stumbled across the article while looking for other items....sorry, didn't note the page and volume as it wasn't of interest to me at the time.
I believe it has shown up in some Model Railroader publications and lately one of the trackwork suppliers (jigs or materials??) had photos and a trackplan of a layout they
were building....
Charlie Vlk


Re: Rivets

Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Dennis Storzek" <destorzek@...> wrote:


Machinery's Handbook gives this general rule for selecting rivet
sizes, and I quote:

"The rivet diameter D commonly falls between D=1.2 X &#8730;T and
D=1.4 X &#8730;T
where T is the thickness of the plate."
I guess Whahoo doesn't like displaying Bill Gates' square root symbol.
That should read "… 1.2 X the square root of T and 1.4 X the square
root of T."

Dennis


biggest oversized rivets in HO

ed_mines
 

The HO cars with the most oversized "rivets" that I can recall is the
JC passenger car kits.

Athearn's gondola is a close second. You could use those ribs in O
scale!

Remember the fantastic cars that Richard Hendrickson kitbashed from
those klunky gondolas? Talk about making lemonade.

Compare the ribs and rivets on those gons to the ones on Athearns 2
bay, ribbed hoppers. They should be about the same size.

Sometimes leaving rivets off HO models (or representing them with
printing) isn't too inaccurate.

Ed


PRR K8 bolt sizes

ed_mines
 

The 1941 CBC has a drawing for PRR K8 stock cars. It specifies 1/2
bolts.

The bolt head for models of these in HO should be about 9 mils.

Remember that a 20 mil (.020") "rivet" is 4 times bigger than a 10 mil
(.010") rivet.

Ed Mines


Re: Rivets

Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "ed_mines" <ed_mines@...> wrote:


Do you really need 1/2" diameter rivets to hold sheet metal (or thin
metal plates) to a frame? And so many of them? With sheet metal in
particular freight would break through the side before a 1/2 bolt would
break.

Ed,

As a rule, the size of the rivets is chosen based on the material
thickness to be joined. Bridges can use big rivets on wide spacing
because that material fastened is so thick. Freightcars use smaller
rivets on closer spacing because the material is thinner. Airplanes
use tiny rivets on really close spacing because the material is
thinner yet.

Machinery's Handbook gives this general rule for selecting rivet
sizes, and I quote:

"The rivet diameter D commonly falls between D=1.2 X &#8730;T and D=1.4 X &#8730;T
where T is the thickness of the plate."

The steel side sheets of the AAR standard boxcars I'm looking at the
drawings of are specified as .1". Using the extremes of the range
above, the calculated diameter of the rivet shanks should be between
.379", slightly over 3/8", and .443", slightly over 7/16". Therefore,
I would suppose that at least some cars could have been built using
3/8" rivets having 11/16" diameter heads. These would scale out to
.008 dia. in HO. However, as I said, the drawings I was looking at had
the side rivets drawn the same as the door post gusset rivets; they
just weren't specified. The ones that were had 7/8" dia. heads, which
scale to .010".

I just looked at a Standard Railway Equipment Co. drawing for an
Improved Dreadnaught end. It specifies "9/16" holes unless otherwise
specified." That's the clearance hole for a 1/2" rivet, which will be
covered with a 7/8" diameter head. Certain holes, where ladders,
grabs, and brackets will be attached are specified 11/16" for 5/8"
rivets. This makes sense, as IIRC all safety appliances must be
attached with either 5/8" bolts or rivets. The top flange of this end,
which is designed for a car with "ZU" eaves and overhanging roof
panels, is specified to have 7/16" holes, which would be the size for
3/8" rivets with 11/16" diameter heads. I also looked a the
fabrication drawing for a YSDCo. steel side, but it STILL doesn't
specify the rivet diameters; just the Part No. and Drg. No. for each
panel and post. I'd need those drawings to see what size rivet holes
are specified.

Dennis


Erie Q'Craft caboose kit

ed_mines
 

Anyone have any of these that they'd be willing to part with?

Half built (half destroyed) kits are fine if the castings are in good
shape.

Ed Mines


injection molded windows for cabooses

ed_mines
 

Tichy has offered high quality injection molded work car windows
suitable for cabooses for about 15 years. The rectangular ones are too
big for my intended use.

My recollection is that some company offered smaller, similar quality
rectangular windows. I thought it was Tichy/CMA but they aren't listed
on their web site. Was it another company?

I see Tichy/CMA has a new home in NC. Has the company changed hands? I
hope they come out with some new castings. If a tarheel bought the
company maybe he'll come up with a Pratt truss casting for a single
sheathed box car to fit Red Caboose X29type cars. A similar Ulrich
metal casting fit Train Miniature X29s. Signature SAL and B&M cars
could be modeled with these combinations (the SAL car has a has a fish
belly underframe).

Ed Mines


Re: SAL 36500-36699 hoppers

Chet French <cfrench@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "benjaminfrank_hom" <b.hom@...> wrote:

Frank Valoczy wrote:
"Curious if anybody knows which roadnumbers of the SAL's 36500-36699
series hoppers (USRA twins, I believe?) were still on the roster in
1951?"

One clarification - SAL was not allocated any USRA twin hoppers.
These
were copies built to the same dsign in the 1920s. I don't have a
1951
ORER, but will check my 1950 ORER later this evening.

Frank,

I'll do the checking for Ben. He's busy keeping the Navy afloat.
The July 1950 ORER shows 179 cars remaining, but you would need SAL
records to know the road numbers of the existing cars.

Chet French
Dixon, IL


Re: FGE Yellow Color

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Dave Nelson wrote:
I suppose most of the hyper-ventilating is over so perhaps it's safe to toss out (one more time) a somewhat contrary view to the opinion of "whatever color floats your boat because you'll never match anything"....The contrarian in me sez hogwash: you have to be reasonably close to the **general** color mix you're shootin for to have any hope of being satisified w/ the end result.
Um, Dave, it may have slipped past you but I said: "We do want to be in the right ballpark, and often the prototype paint chip does give a starting point. As we have discussed repeatedly on this list, this is less helpful for the darker colors, but one can get into the right kind of range for color hue and tone with the help of prototype info. . . let's not go from 'impossible to match EXACTLY' to the belief that 'prototype color has no bearing on model colors.' Just tain't so, as far as I'm concerned."

And so, IMO, it serves little purpose to use the (correct) dismissal of the perfect as the enemy of the good.
Full agreement.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: SAL 36500-36699 hoppers

seaboard_1966
 

The answer to this is yes. It was not until later in the 50's that these cars were off the roster and their numbers taken over by woodchip cars. Now, as a side note, that being said, these cars were rebuilt into wet rock phosphate cars toward the end of their lives.

Also, as Ben stated, the SAL was not allocated any cars. These were purchased 2nd hand by the Seaboard.

DB

----- Original Message -----
From: "benjaminfrank_hom" <b.hom@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 12:45 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: SAL 36500-36699 hoppers


Frank Valoczy wrote:
"Curious if anybody knows which roadnumbers of the SAL's 36500-36699
series hoppers (USRA twins, I believe?) were still on the roster in
1951?"

One clarification - SAL was not allocated any USRA twin hoppers. These
were copies built to the same dsign in the 1920s. I don't have a 1951
ORER, but will check my 1950 ORER later this evening.


Ben Hom




Yahoo! Groups Links





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Re: FGE Yellow Color

Dave Nelson
 

I suppose most of the hyper-ventilating is over so perhaps it's safe to toss
out (one more time) a somewhat contrary view to the opinion of "whatever
color floats your boat because you'll never match anything"....

Now I know nobody said that phrase but absent a necessary qualification that
is pretty much the general attitude expressed so far. The contrarian in me
sez hogwash: you have to be reasonably close to the **general** color mix
you're shootin for to have any hope of being satisified w/ the end result.

Case in point: remember the Bowser brown applied to some of their PRR
boxcars? A warmish green aspect leaks off the plastic. And in contrast,
whatever your eye sees when it looks at, say, Modelflex Light Tuscan, your
eye sees an orangish red. You're just not going to be able to go from A to
B, or B to A with those two colors. If you want Bowsers' (horrible brown)
you have to start w/ paint that's already got a lot of green added to it.
If you want to match Modelflex's Light Tuscan you want a ****whole lot****
less green. It's pretty hard to remove one color from a mix of paint!

Opinions expressed so far say that you cannot match colors... true to the
extreme. But it is also true that to get into the ballback you have to
start with some reference point for which you are aiming... and that
reference point, while unobtainable in the perfect, is damn useful for
obtaining the good enough. And to do that you do need to know something
about the true color of the paint with which you are working and how those
colors relate (or don't relate) to your reference.

And so, IMO, it serves little purpose to use the (correct) dismissal of the
perfect as the enemy of the good.

Dave Nelson


Re: AC&F tank car types

Dave Nelson
 

Spen Kellogg wrote:
Dave Nelson wrote:
I see AC&F produced their type 7 car around 1907, their type 21 car
around
1921 and their type 26 car around 1926. And while I've not heard of
any other "types" it's clear they continued to make tank cars ;)
over the years. So what came after the type 26?
Dave,

I'm not aware of a Type 26 (could be my ignorance), but there was a
Type 27. Did you hit the wrong key?

Yup, sure looks like a brain-fart. Sorry 'bout that.

Dave Nelson


Re: Rivets

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Ed Mines wrote:
I don't want to argue with Dennis Storzak who has done so much for the hobby but I think .010" is too big for "rivets" on box car sides.
Where does it say that they are "rivets" anyway? Could they be bolts?
In wood-sheathed cars and stock cars, yes, they often are bolts. So you make a good point, Ed, that modelers sometimes refer to "rivets" on wood attachments. But on steel car sides, they are rivets. And yes, they were applied hot.

Do you really need 1/2" diameter rivets to hold sheet metal (or thin metal plates) to a frame? And so many of them? . . . There are bolts with 1 inch diameter heads on a railroad underpass I see. There aren't too many of them either and the service is much more severe than holding on freight car siding.
Loading may be greater, but a freight car experiences bending and twisting in a way that bridges do not, so you cannot directly compare the fastener needs; and the numerous rivets on the car sides are to seal the seam of the panels, not just to attach them together. It's probably true that they would be adequately ATTACHED by a rivet every foot, but the seal would not be very good under that twisting, etc.

Anthony Thompson
Dept. of Materials Science & Engineering
University of California, Berkeley
thompsonmarytony@...


Rivets

ed_mines
 

I don't want to argue with Dennis Storzak who has done so much for the
hobby but I think .010" is too big for "rivets" on box car sides.

Where does it say that they are "rivets" anyway? Could they be bolts?
Is there more than one type of rivet?

Could you imagine heating up all of those "rivets" to assemble a
freight car side? Or is there a rivet applied cold?

Do you really need 1/2" diameter rivets to hold sheet metal (or thin
metal plates) to a frame? And so many of them? With sheet metal in
particular freight would break through the side before a 1/2 bolt would
break.

There are bolts with 1 inch diameter heads on a railroad underpass I
see. There aren't too many of them either and the service is much more
severe than holding on freight car siding.

Ed


Re: SAL 36500-36699 hoppers

destron@...
 

Thanks for the clarification.

In the '53 reprint it lists it as the whole number series, 36500-36699,
indicated to have 2 (3? Can't recall offhand and am not at home) cars
total.

Frank Valoczy
Vancouver, BC

Frank Valoczy wrote:
"Curious if anybody knows which roadnumbers of the SAL's 36500-36699
series hoppers (USRA twins, I believe?) were still on the roster in
1951?"

One clarification - SAL was not allocated any USRA twin hoppers. These
were copies built to the same dsign in the 1920s. I don't have a 1951
ORER, but will check my 1950 ORER later this evening.


Ben Hom




Yahoo! Groups Links





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http://hydrorail.rrpicturearchives.net/ - Rail Photos


Re: SAL 36500-36699 hoppers

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Frank Valoczy wrote:
"Curious if anybody knows which roadnumbers of the SAL's 36500-36699
series hoppers (USRA twins, I believe?) were still on the roster in
1951?"

One clarification - SAL was not allocated any USRA twin hoppers. These
were copies built to the same dsign in the 1920s. I don't have a 1951
ORER, but will check my 1950 ORER later this evening.


Ben Hom


Rivets: Size

Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Tom Madden" <tgmadden@...> wrote:

Here's a formula from Wayne Long:

The "size" of the rivet (in inches) is the outside diameter of the
shaft which goes into the two or more holes in the metal pieces
being riveted together. The diameter of the rivet head, where it
bears on a metal surface is size x 1.5 + 1/8". The head at its
highest point off the same metal surface is:
size x 1.5 + 1/8" x 0.425.

Apply this information to a standard 1" rivet and you get:

Shaft = 1" O.D.

head = 1 5/8" O.D.
Tom, List,

This got me curious, so I did some digging. Machinery's Handbook has
the ANSI specifications for solid steel rivets with button heads (at
least my mid-1980's edition has them). Wayne Long's formula is right
on for 1/2" rivets, but gives slightly large values for smaller rivets
and slightly small values for larger rivets. For instance, a 1" ANSI
button head rivet has a 1 3/4" head diameter. However Wayne's formula
is certainly close enough for our modeling, as the error in HO scale
would be less than .001". For those who care, here are the sizes of
the heads for ANSI Standard button head rivets, and their HO scale
equivalents:

SIZE HEAD DIA. HO SCALE

1/4 .460" .0055"
3/8 .684" .008"
1/2 .875" .010"
5/8 1.094" .0125"
3/4 1.312" .015"
7/8 1.531" .0175"
1 1.750" .020"

I might point out that .020" dia. is the smallest size separate
styrene rivet that Tichy makes, and it models the head of a 1" rivet
in HO scale.

So, what size was used where? That's a rather had question to answer,
and took some searching. Typically rivet sizes aren't specified on
general arrangement drawings; one needs to go down to the component
drawings level to find them, and few of these are published. I went
back to that set of AAR drawings from the Field Manual / Interchange
Rules we were discussing the other day, and gleaned size
specifications from the call-outs on the roof, end, and door drawings.
Here is what I found:

The smallest I found was 1/4", used on the lap eams of the AAR flat
roof; similar to the PRR X29 roof, but note this is NOT the PRR
specification;

The rivets that attach the roof flange to the top of the end are
called out as 3/8";

The rivets that attach the ends of the roof seam caps to the side
plate, and side sheathing to the car posts in the door area are called
out as 1/2", all the rivets on the sides are drawn similar, but I
could not find a spec. other than at the door posts;

One of the ends called for 11/16" holes along its bottom edge, this
would be the clearance hole for 5/8" rivets;

Striker castings were attached with 3/4" rivets;

The largest rivets I found were from a different source, the ARA
(later AAR) standard for splicing steel center sills, which called for
7/8" rivets.

Nowhere did I find any 1" rivets specified, indicating that the Tichy
product is only good for bridge rivets in HO scale.

As an aside, in my design work at Accurail I've always used .010" -
.011" for rivet heads on car sides, slightly larger for frame rivets,
and these are indeed very close to scale for 1/2" rivet heads. I
suspect any rivets that look much smaller, the designer misinterpreted
the specified nominal size of the rivet for the actual diameter of the
head.

Dennis


Re: Kodachromes & FGE Yellow

boyds1949 <E27ca@...>
 

Interesting discussion on old Kodak films. Unfortunately, no one
had even dreamed of Photoshop back in 1978 (or the room sized
computer you would have needed to run it back than) when I had access
to Mr. Rice's Kodachrome originals. The only recourse was to try to
adjust with color printing filters. That made them presentable for
projection but it may have done more harm than good so far as
recovering the original colors now. I will dig the copies out, scan
and see what can be done. I had always attributed the greyish dark
brown color of the freight cars to the limitations of the film.
Based on previous discussions, that may be the way cars looked in the
1940's.

The orignal question concerning the color of the IM FGE cars got lost
in the discussion over color matching in general. Bottom line to me
is that once you paint the hardware to 1940's practice and weather,
the color looks close enough.

John King






--- In STMFC@..., Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

Aley, Jeff A wrote:
For hints on correcting those magenta slides, see
http://www.scantips.com/color.html . Basically, his point is not
that
the slide is too red; it's that there's too little blue and
green, so
you get better results by boosting those two than you do by
reducing
the red (which is what anyone would instinctively do).
Yes, quite true, and I think anyone who fiddles with various
color
corrections finds this out pretty quickly. The non-artist's first
instinct in this area is often wrong.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Color fun was FGE Yellow Color

Charlie Vlk
 

This is a problem that keeps on coming up.

The funny thing about "correct" colors is most of the time the frame of reference by the vast majority of consumers is
another company's model (correct or not) or "Color Guides" printed in China from decades old color prints or slides
(or even colorized B&W prints!!!) color matched using Chinese or Japanese ink systems and printed by people who
never saw the prototype!!

Drift cards are a good start and reproducing these valuable source documents is a huge problem.

Prototype
Lighting Conditions
Viewing Distance
Sky / Weather Conditions
Sun Angle
Weathering (dirt, etc. film)
Paint Fading / Deterioation
Varying Paint Formulations
Different Vendors
Changes in Specifications over time
Paint Finish

Model
Scale of Color
Lower Intensity (than the Sun) Lighting Conditions on the Layout
Different Temperature Light Sources
Cumulative errors in matching colors from sub-masters
Color Perception of Individuals involved in the Research/Design/Manufacturing/Approval/Production processes
Color Perception Memory
Scale of Paint (pigment size....evident in Metalics and composites like Graphites
Paint Finish (largely not addressed in models beyond Gloss/Flat)
Sprayed paints vs. Tampo printed inks
Order of application of paints over varying color substrates

...and a high percentage of Males and even some Females have some degree of Color Blindness


Charlie Vlk
Railroad Model Resources

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