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Re: Rivets

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

W. Lindsay Smith wrote:
Professor please! Your discussion of prototype rivets is accurate. However, since the human eye resolves about a mil (1 foot at range 1,000 feet) and the effect of shadows makes small projections appear larger, the model maker cannot make automatic scaling.
It was Kurt Laughlin who provided rivet dimensions, not me. And though I happen to agree that rivets (and other features) may have to be other than scale size to "look right," I didn't discuss that either, in the current thread. Whether you offer praise or blame, Lindsay, it doesn't come to me <g>.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Rivets

W. Lindsay Smith <wlindsays2000@...>
 

Professor please! Your discussion of prototype rivets is accurate.
However, since the human eye resolves about a mil (1 foot at range
1,000 feet) and the effect of shadows makes small projections appear
larger, the model maker cannot make automatic scaling. The late Dick
Kurtz made the original Milepost 310 trailer rivits to scale and they
did not apear on the model. He redesigned the rivet row and we
thought they looked more like the trailers we saw in TOFC service.
Love ya Tony!
Lindsay
--- In STMFC@..., Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

Kurt Laughlin wrote:
Tony, do you think that the "small" rivets (actual nomenclature
for
rivets under 1/2-inch) were driven hot? I would think that by WW
II
if not earlier they would be cold formed. (I have a photo
somewhere
of an M3 tank of 1941 vintage being assembled with an enormous
riveter
and bucking bar. The holes are 49/64 dia -.765 - so I imagine
they
were using 3/4-inch rivets, "large" in the terms of the trade.)
Cold-driven rivets are much stronger, while hot ones hold the
seam
tighter. Depends on what you want. With a tank, I can guess the
priority <g>.
Certainly as late as the 1950s, PFE reefers were still
assembled
with hot rivets. I can't speak for freight car production in
general.
Ed Kaminski might know what AC&F practice was.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Color fun was FGE Yellow Color

Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
 

Colour blindess--it's more common than you think. There is at least
one well-known model rail author that is colour blind. Colour vision
is tested by either the Isihara plates (those coloured numbers inside
coloured circles) or a lantern test, which originated with the Royal
Navy, but is also used--for testing prototype train crews. AFAIK
there are few colour standards--AAR signal colours, Pantone colour
system, and inks used in printing the Isihara plates.

Then we add those "color guides"--Charlie, you are quite right. The
graphics standard for colour is the Pantone system. I often wonder
about the accuracy of some of those colours in the Morning Sun books
that I enjoy and will buy more of. And there are also some rail
books that have colour digitally altered to improve a photo's
appearance. Some publishers seem to employ this technique often!

The best prototype colour references IMHO are drift cards, wet
samples, or Pantone references. We CN modellers are fourtuante to
have had Stafford Swain and company do up a "chip of many colours"--
essential for CN/GTW/CV/DW&P modellers.

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@..., "Charlie Vlk" <cvlk@...> wrote:

This is a problem that keeps on coming up.

The funny thing about "correct" colors is most of the time the
frame of reference by the vast majority of consumers is
another company's model (correct or not) or "Color Guides" printed
in China from decades old color prints or slides
(or even colorized B&W prints!!!) color matched using Chinese or
Japanese ink systems and printed by people who
never saw the prototype!!

Drift cards are a good start and reproducing these valuable source
documents is a huge problem.

Prototype
Lighting Conditions
Viewing Distance
Sky / Weather Conditions
Sun Angle
Weathering (dirt, etc. film)
Paint Fading / Deterioation
Varying Paint Formulations
Different Vendors
Changes in Specifications over time
Paint Finish

Model
Scale of Color
Lower Intensity (than the Sun) Lighting Conditions on the Layout
Different Temperature Light Sources
Cumulative errors in matching colors from sub-masters
Color Perception of Individuals involved in the
Research/Design/Manufacturing/Approval/Production processes
Color Perception Memory
Scale of Paint (pigment size....evident in Metalics and composites
like Graphites
Paint Finish (largely not addressed in models beyond Gloss/Flat)
Sprayed paints vs. Tampo printed inks
Order of application of paints over varying color substrates

...and a high percentage of Males and even some Females have some
degree of Color Blindness


Charlie Vlk
Railroad Model Resources

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: The X2f, Paul Mallery and all that

Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
 

Excuse the tardy reply. Tom Madden's memoire on this subject is extremely interesting, not to mention very informative on this once very controversial subject.

I never met Paul Mallery, but I always have paid close attention to what he said and wrote- even now. He was a very prolific and very influential author in our field for many, many years. His book on modeling bridges is still the very best around, although the advocated methods of modeling contained within have been long superceded.

I love the drawings and diagrams in all of his books, and his explanations of the details of special trackwork is not duplicated elsewhere. I have used copies of his full sized fold-out HO turnout diagrams to gauge tie spacing, etc. and help with some hand-laying chores. His long advocacy of only hand-laying track (with epoxy "spikes") gained no traction whatsoever that I could ever determine, although he advocated it for years on end full in the face of the obvious rising hegemony of sectional flex track, which he disdained.

The weak point of his writing over the years was his quite evident inability to even indirectly admit defeat when points of view that he championed were either over-run by historical events, the powers of empirical observation, the better thinking of others, or just mere logic- and too often that persistent failure to give way gracefully tainted his credibility on other things where he was on stronger and higher ground. He disdained other prominent modelers' reputations and work by the pretty deliberate use of faint praise, and he almost never would acknowledge the work of others if he perceived that their work competed with his own. Both A.C. Kalmbach and Linn Westcott were soft targets in these regards. I always thought that this was peculiar for a man of science nominally devoted to the superiority of reasoning over personalities.

If Paul Mallery ever wrote about Steam Era Freight Cars, I am unaware of it. However, warts and all, and on balance, there is no doubt in my mind the model railroading environment through which our cars run today is measurably better because of Mallery's well publicized efforts.

Sadly, he passed away in retirement four or five years ago in Roseville, CA (quite near here).

Denny
--
Denny S. Anspach, MD
Sacramento


Re: Rivets

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Ed Mines wrote:
I don't want to argue with Dennis Storzak who has done so much for the
hobby but I think .010" is too big for "rivets" on box car sides.
Where does it say that they are "rivets" anyway? Could they be bolts?

Tony Thompson:
In wood-sheathed cars and stock cars, yes, they often are bolts.
So you make a good point, Ed, that modelers sometimes refer to "rivets"
on wood attachments. But on steel car sides, they are rivets. And yes,
they were applied hot.
Do you really need 1/2" diameter rivets to hold sheet metal (or thin
metal plates) to a frame? And so many of them? . . . There are bolts
with 1 inch diameter heads on a railroad underpass I see. There aren't
too many of them either and the service is much more severe than
holding on freight car siding.

Tony Thompson:
Loading may be greater, but a freight car experiences bending
and twisting in a way that bridges do not, so you cannot directly
compare the fastener needs; and the numerous rivets on the car sides
are to seal the seam of the panels, not just to attach them together.
It's probably true that they would be adequately ATTACHED by a rivet
every foot, but the seal would not be very good under that twisting,
etc.
There is another aspect to this besides sealing the panels together against weather. These panels
work together to provide some of the strength of the car body. You have all seen the photos in
which you can see the "oil-canning" of the side panels due to stresses. If you had but 12" spaced
rivets, that would simply come apart at the seams (to coin a phrase). By spacing them much closer,
they make the side panels work together as a larger sheet, as a diaphragm.

SGL


Re: Rivets

Brian J Carlson <brian@...>
 

In bridges (many carried steam era freight cars) the rivets were driven hot,
through the 1950's, since the connection design was slip critical.
Brian J Carlson P.E.
Cheektowaga NY


Re: Rivets

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Kurt Laughlin wrote:
Tony, do you think that the "small" rivets (actual nomenclature for rivets under 1/2-inch) were driven hot? I would think that by WW II if not earlier they would be cold formed. (I have a photo somewhere of an M3 tank of 1941 vintage being assembled with an enormous riveter and bucking bar. The holes are 49/64 dia -.765 - so I imagine they were using 3/4-inch rivets, "large" in the terms of the trade.)
Cold-driven rivets are much stronger, while hot ones hold the seam tighter. Depends on what you want. With a tank, I can guess the priority <g>.
Certainly as late as the 1950s, PFE reefers were still assembled with hot rivets. I can't speak for freight car production in general. Ed Kaminski might know what AC&F practice was.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Rivets

Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
 

----- Original Message -----
From: Anthony Thompson

In wood-sheathed cars and stock cars, yes, they often are bolts.
So you make a good point, Ed, that modelers sometimes refer to "rivets"
on wood attachments. But on steel car sides, they are rivets. And yes,
they were applied hot.
----- Original Message -----

Tony, do you think that the "small" rivets (actual nomenclature for rivets under 1/2-inch) were driven hot? I would think that by WW II if not earlier they would be cold formed. (I have a photo somewhere of an M3 tank of 1941 vintage being assembled with an enormous riveter and bucking bar. The holes are 49/64 dia -
.765 - so I imagine they were using 3/4-inch rivets, "large" in the terms of the trade.)

KL


Re: injection molded windows for cabooses

Richard Townsend
 

I have used Grandt Line caboose windows.


Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, Oregon

-----Original Message-----
From: ed_mines <ed_mines@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 12:12 pm
Subject: [STMFC] injection molded windows for cabooses






Tichy has offered high quality injection molded work car windows
suitable for cabooses for about 15 years. The rectangular ones are too
big for my intended use.

My recollection is that some company offered smaller, similar quality
rectangular windows. I thought it was Tichy/CMA but they aren't listed
on their web site. Was it another company?

I see Tichy/CMA has a new home in NC. Has the company changed hands? I
hope they come out with some new castings. If a tarheel bought the
company maybe he'll come up with a Pratt truss casting for a single
sheathed box car to fit Red Caboose X29type cars. A similar Ulrich
metal casting fit Train Miniature X29s. Signature SAL and B&M cars
could be modeled with these combinations (the SAL car has a has a fish
belly underframe).

Ed Mines





________________________________________________________________________
More new features than ever. Check out the new AIM(R) Mail ! - http://webmail.aim.com


Re: biggest oversized rivets in HO

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

The HO cars with the most oversized "rivets" that I can recall is the JC passenger car kits. Athearn's gondola is a close second. You could use those ribs in O scale!
I'd put the MDC Harriman cars up against any competition for "most oversize HO rivets."

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


injection molded caboose windows

mjmcguirk@...
 

Ed,

Tichy is one company that makes them - he calls them "outfit car windows" - I can't access his web site from here, but he should have them available.

Afraid you won't see any new products from Tichy based on a "tarheel" acquisition - Don still owns the outfit - he and his wife built a home in North Carolina and moved there about two years ago.

Marty


Re: SAL 36500-36699 hoppers

Ian Cranstone
 

I had a quick look through my ORERs, and this particular series seems to have appeared between the July 1935 and July 1937 issues.

Ian Cranstone
Osgoode, Ontario, Canada
lamontc@...
http://freightcars.nakina.net
http://siberians.nakina.net

On 5-Feb-08, at 4:25 PM, John Golden wrote:

I'm just guessing here (a dangerous thing to do on this list) but
the cars in question may have come from the Georgia, Florida &
Alabama RR merger in 1927. If anyone has access to complete SAL
roster info by year, check if the cars were added between 1926 and
1928.

John Golden
Bloomington, IN

--- In STMFC@..., "Denis F. Blake" <dblake7@...> wrote:

The answer to this is yes. It was not until later in the 50's
that these
cars were off the roster and their numbers taken over by woodchip
cars.
Now, as a side note, that being said, these cars were rebuilt into
wet rock
phosphate cars toward the end of their lives.

Also, as Ben stated, the SAL was not allocated any cars. These
were
purchased 2nd hand by the Seaboard.

DB

----- Original Message -----
From: "benjaminfrank_hom" <b.hom@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 12:45 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: SAL 36500-36699 hoppers


Frank Valoczy wrote:
"Curious if anybody knows which roadnumbers of the SAL's 36500-
36699
series hoppers (USRA twins, I believe?) were still on the roster
in
1951?"

One clarification - SAL was not allocated any USRA twin
hoppers. These
were copies built to the same dsign in the 1920s. I don't have
a 1951
ORER, but will check my 1950 ORER later this evening.


Ben Hom




Yahoo! Groups Links





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Date: 2/5/2008
9:44 AM



Re: injection molded windows for cabooses

Westerfield <westerfield@...>
 

Ed - We still purchase parts from Don. To contact him: don@.... - Al Westerfield

----- Original Message -----
From: ed_mines
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 2:12 PM
Subject: [STMFC] injection molded windows for cabooses


Tichy has offered high quality injection molded work car windows
suitable for cabooses for about 15 years. The rectangular ones are too
big for my intended use.

My recollection is that some company offered smaller, similar quality
rectangular windows. I thought it was Tichy/CMA but they aren't listed
on their web site. Was it another company?

I see Tichy/CMA has a new home in NC. Has the company changed hands? I
hope they come out with some new castings. If a tarheel bought the
company maybe he'll come up with a Pratt truss casting for a single
sheathed box car to fit Red Caboose X29type cars. A similar Ulrich
metal casting fit Train Miniature X29s. Signature SAL and B&M cars
could be modeled with these combinations (the SAL car has a has a fish
belly underframe).

Ed Mines


Re: SAL 36500-36699 hoppers

golden1014
 

I'm just guessing here (a dangerous thing to do on this list) but
the cars in question may have come from the Georgia, Florida &
Alabama RR merger in 1927. If anyone has access to complete SAL
roster info by year, check if the cars were added between 1926 and
1928.

John Golden
Bloomington, IN



--- In STMFC@..., "Denis F. Blake" <dblake7@...> wrote:

The answer to this is yes. It was not until later in the 50's
that these
cars were off the roster and their numbers taken over by woodchip
cars.
Now, as a side note, that being said, these cars were rebuilt into
wet rock
phosphate cars toward the end of their lives.

Also, as Ben stated, the SAL was not allocated any cars. These
were
purchased 2nd hand by the Seaboard.

DB

----- Original Message -----
From: "benjaminfrank_hom" <b.hom@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 12:45 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: SAL 36500-36699 hoppers


Frank Valoczy wrote:
"Curious if anybody knows which roadnumbers of the SAL's 36500-
36699
series hoppers (USRA twins, I believe?) were still on the roster
in
1951?"

One clarification - SAL was not allocated any USRA twin
hoppers. These
were copies built to the same dsign in the 1920s. I don't have
a 1951
ORER, but will check my 1950 ORER later this evening.


Ben Hom




Yahoo! Groups Links





--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.20/1260 - Release
Date: 2/5/2008
9:44 AM


Re: AC&F tank car types

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Feb 5, 2008, at 6:01 AM, asychis@... wrote:

Does anyone know if the Type 21 or Type 27 tanks cars, such as
InterMountain's or P2k's were used by certain railroads for company
service cars? Photos?
Jerry, the C&NW, FEC, M-K-T, N&W, and T&P all got new Type 21 10K gal.
four course tank cars from AC&F; I have either builder's or in-service
photos (and, in some cases, both). In addition, P&NW got Type 21 10K
three course tank cars in 1926. I also have in-service photos from the
1950s and later of Type 21 10K gal. four course tank cars on the GW,
MILW, SAL, and SOO, but I don't know whether those cars were purchased
new or acquired second hand.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Rivets: Size

Jason Greene <steamlocomotive290@...>
 

The mud ring rivets I have been driving at work are 7/8" rivets is this gives you an idea about what was used. I can't imagine a boxcar or gon or hopper would need much more than that...

Jason Greene
Steele, AL


Re: biggest oversized rivets in HO

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Ed Mines wrote:
"The HO cars with the most oversized "rivets" that I can recall is the
JC passenger car kits. Athearn's gondola is a close second."

Don't forget the Cannonball Car Shops Troop Sleepers - grapefruit-sized
rivets! This is doubly inexplicable as their Troop Kitchen cars were
actually tooled pretty nicely.


Ben Hom


Railroad Prototype Modelers-Valley Forge 2008

prr282
 

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The Desmond Hotel & Conference Center
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March 28-29-30, 2008

40 different clinics, with more possible
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Models Display Room
Home Layout Tours Sunday afternoon

For complete information, including a Timetable, Registration Form,
Clinics Listing, and Vendors, please visit our web site:

www.phillynmra.org/rpmmeet.html

Paul Backenstose
Chairman


Re: Bronx freight houses

Charlie Vlk
 

There was an extensive article on the Bronx freight house in Railway Age sometime in the 1898-1904 period. The Philadelphia Free Public Library has 15 bound volumes
in their collection and I stumbled across the article while looking for other items....sorry, didn't note the page and volume as it wasn't of interest to me at the time.
I believe it has shown up in some Model Railroader publications and lately one of the trackwork suppliers (jigs or materials??) had photos and a trackplan of a layout they
were building....
Charlie Vlk


Re: Rivets

Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Dennis Storzek" <destorzek@...> wrote:


Machinery's Handbook gives this general rule for selecting rivet
sizes, and I quote:

"The rivet diameter D commonly falls between D=1.2 X &#8730;T and
D=1.4 X &#8730;T
where T is the thickness of the plate."
I guess Whahoo doesn't like displaying Bill Gates' square root symbol.
That should read "… 1.2 X the square root of T and 1.4 X the square
root of T."

Dennis

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