Jack Burgess wrote:

The only place that I can think of to use double insulated wheelsets would

be on brass freight cars. There would not be needed even then as long as you
mount both trucks with the insulated wheels on the same side of the car...

My response:
Keeping the insulated wheels all on the same side will prevent a dead short. However it can lead to a hidden problem. The "live" side of the car can cross a gap. This could cause problems depending on how you layout is wired. This happend at my clubs layout with some Kadee metal log cars. The wheelsets had been replaced with Reboxx.

Double insulated wheels are a good idea on metal cars with metal trucks. Otherwise I wouldn't bother.

Ned Carey

Mr. Burgess and Mr. O'Connor,
Thanks for the replies. I appreciate the effort.

Sincerely,
Robert D. Heninger
Stanley, ND

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Jack Burgess" <jack@...> wrote:

Doug mentioned:

While this
file only covers 1949, in later years something called "road oil"

was

delivered in the summer. This could be one of two products, 1)

oil used in

make asphalt as rural roads were being paved a heavy tar like
oil, or 2) oil
used to coat gravel roads to hold down the dust in the summer,

which might

be waste or used oil.

Although they may have used a different term in those days, asphalt

pavement

is produced with asphalt which, unlike common lubricating oil, must

be

heated to around 350 degrees and mixed with aggregate to produce

paving

asphalt. While waste or used oil might have been used to spray on

gravel

roads, it wouldn't be very effective in the long run. I suspect

that "road

oil" was actually a lower grade of asphalt that would be heated and

sprayed

onto the gravel. As the road oil cooled, it would bind the gravel

together,

creating a smooth surface as well as reducing dust. One of the

problems of

gravel roads where speeds are higher is that the gravel is

continually

pushed to the center and edges of the road, resulting in the need

for

continual grading to maintain the surface; in the snow belt, that

uneven

surface will really deteriorate during the winter. In addition,

failure to

maintain a gravel road will eventually result in a "washboard"

surface.

Grading the surface to produce a good cross-section and then

applying road

oil can eliminate a lot of maintenance problems.

Several years ago, I posted two lists of all inbound loads for
Staunton, IL on the ITC, from 1944 to 1951. These lists included
many cars of liquid asphalt (road oil) which were shipped out of the
Roxana and Wood River refineries. The lists can be found in messages
10627 and 10656.

Chet French
Dixon, IL

Insulation is only needed if the wheels and axles are metal,
or if the sideframes, bolster and wheels are all metal.

Single insulation costs less. But you have to pay attention
to how you insert the wheels. (Insulation all on same side.)

Double insulated wheels are typically for special applications,
like current detection wheelsets.

Tim O'

Does anyone know what "C. C. C. R." stands for in C. C. C. R. Co. Viking Radial All-steel Roof callout for the circa 1924-25 C&O 83000-83999/originally HV 34000-34999 40-ft double-sheathed auto-box car roofs? ?? Chicago Climax Car Roof - only guessing ?? They all (other than Standard Rwy Equip) kind of consolidated under a single sales office in Chicago I believe???

Thanks, Al Kresse

Doug mentioned:

While this
file only covers 1949, in later years something called "road oil" was
delivered in the summer. This could be one of two products, 1) oil used in
make asphalt as rural roads were being paved a heavy tar like
oil, or 2) oil
used to coat gravel roads to hold down the dust in the summer, which might
be waste or used oil.

Although they may have used a different term in those days, asphalt pavement
is produced with asphalt which, unlike common lubricating oil, must be
heated to around 350 degrees and mixed with aggregate to produce paving
asphalt. While waste or used oil might have been used to spray on gravel
roads, it wouldn't be very effective in the long run. I suspect that "road
oil" was actually a lower grade of asphalt that would be heated and sprayed
onto the gravel. As the road oil cooled, it would bind the gravel together,
creating a smooth surface as well as reducing dust. One of the problems of
gravel roads where speeds are higher is that the gravel is continually
pushed to the center and edges of the road, resulting in the need for
continual grading to maintain the surface; in the snow belt, that uneven
surface will really deteriorate during the winter. In addition, failure to
maintain a gravel road will eventually result in a "washboard" surface.
Grading the surface to produce a good cross-section and then applying road
oil can eliminate a lot of maintenance problems.

Jack Burgess
www.yosemitevalleyrr.com

Robert asked:

I am hoping to tap into the collective wisdom of the list
members. On my models of steam
era freight cars, would you all suggest standardizing on single or
double insulated wheelsets?
What are the advantages and disadvantages of each?

The only place that I can think of to use double insulated wheelsets would
be on brass freight cars. There would not be needed even then as long as you
mount both trucks with the insulated wheels on the same side of the car...

Jack Burgess
www.yosemitevalleyrr.com

Group,
I am hoping to tap into the collective wisdom of the list members. On my models of steam
era freightcars, would you all suggest standardizing on single or double insulated wheelsets?
What are the advantages and disadvantages of each? Thanks.

Sincerely,
Robert D. Heninger
Stanley, ND

On Feb 16, 2008, at 8:47 PM, Earl Tuson wrote:

I have recently been parsing a 1929-30 B&M Wheel Report, with the
conductor typically working in the Lowell, MA, area.  Included are the
following tank cars, returning empty to the Massachusetts locations
specified:

Well, I guess I should identify the less obvious reporting marks on
this list, too:

GRCX - Gulf Refining Co.

CYCX - Conley Tank Car Co.

PTX - Pennsylvania Tank Car Co. (which by 1931 had merged with Conley
to become the Pennsylvania-Conley Tank Car Co., later absorbed by
General American)

SEPX - Shell Eastern Products Co. (not to be confused with Shell
Petroleum Co., formerly Roxana Petroleum, which was Shell's midwestern
branch [RPX], Shell Oil Co. of California [SCCX], or Shell Oil Co. of
British Columbia [SCBX])

CSRX - Cities Service Refining Co.

PX - Products Tank Line (a subsidiary of Union Tank Car Co.)

MPLX - Mexican Petroleum Corp. (later American Oil Co., Amoco)

TWOX - Tidewater Oil Sales Corp. (not to be confused with Tidal
Refining Co. in the midwest [TIDX] or Associated Oil Co. in Calif.
[AOX], all of which later became part of the Tidewater-Associated Oil
Co.)

SDRX - Sinclair Refining Co.

Richard Hendrickson

To follow up with Clark's list from the Fairfax Seal list, I have uploaded a
Excel file <49mstlminburndallascenteroil.xls>. This is a listing of all the
petroleum products delivered in 1949 to two stations on the M&StL, to two
small towns Dallas Center and Minburn, NW of Des Moines, Ia. The list
includes, tank car data, refinery if known, Tim Gilbert created this file
from to information I had compiled. You will note not a drop of diesel,
mostly distilate and gasoline with some fuel oil and lube oil. While this
file only covers 1949, in later years something called "road oil" was
delivered in the summer. This could be one of two products, 1) oil used in
make asphalt as rural roads were being payed a heavy tar like oil, or 2) oil
used to coat gravel roads to hold down the dust in the summer, which might
be waste or used oil.

I have copies of the Station Car record books for both towns from the early
40's to the mid 60's. They show every car delivered, what it contained,
where it was going and where it came from.

Doug Harding
www.iowacentralrr.org

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.20.7/1283 - Release Date: 2/16/2008
2:16 PM

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the STMFC
group.

File : /49mslminburndallascenteroil.xls
Uploaded by : hardingdouglas <dharding@nethtc.net>
Description : MSTL Car Record 1949 Dallas Center & Minburn Ia.

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/files/49mslminburndallascenteroil.xls

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles

Regards,

hardingdouglas <dharding@nethtc.net>

Where do you find these?

I would dearly love to find some for any Carolinas road for around 1934 or
1951...

Frank Valoczy
Vancouver, BC

I have recently been parsing a 1929-30 B&M Wheel Report, with the
conductor typically working in the Lowell, MA, area. Included are the
following tank cars, returning empty to the Massachusetts locations
specified:

GATX 37003 Beverly
GATX 37004 Beverly
GRCX 2905 Beverly
GRCX 2943 Beverly
GRCX 2744 Beverly
CYCX 9332 Chelsea
PTX 2798 Chelsea
SEPX 10166 Chelsea
SEPX 10215 Chelsea
SEPX 10199 Chelsea
CSRX 1274 E Braintree
CSRX 1312 E Braintree
CSRX 1270 E Braintree
GATX 25123 Everett
UTLX 1141 Everett
UTLX 3214 Everett
UTLX 90233 Everett
SHPX 9074 Fall River
PX 2484 Boston, Rutherford Ave
UTLX 38476 Boston, Rutherford Ave
MPLX 870 Portland
UTLX 7468 Portland
UTLX 12081 Portland
TWOX 1093 Revere
TWOX 1149 Revere
UTLX 16039 Revere
UTLX 16320 Revere
UTLX 77384 Revere
UTCX 1100 Stoneham
SDRX 13806 Tiverton RI

All of these locations have port facilities, and several still have
petroleum offloading facilities to this day. One can see some correlation
between car owner and location; it is obvious Gulf was shipping to a
facility in Beverly, while Cities Service offloaded in East Braintree.
Googling some of the combinations confirms the relationships. I suspect
there are some trade annuals, state government publications, or other such
references that one could go to to determine the capacities of the
installations, if one so desired the information.

Earl Tuson



Yahoo! Groups Links





!DSPAM:1291,47b7bc7d227566422512367!

-----
http://hydrorail.hostwq.net/index.html - Rails along the Fraser
http://hydrorail.rrpicturearchives.net/ - Rail Photos

��Here's another tank car question. In many of the places I've lived
��petroleum products are shipped by water. Were tank cars ever filled
��at these marine terminals?

I have recently been parsing a 1929-30 B&M Wheel Report, with the conductor typically working in the Lowell, MA, area.��Included are the following tank cars, returning empty to the Massachusetts locations specified:

GATX 37003 Beverly
GATX 37004 Beverly
GRCX 2905 Beverly
GRCX 2943 Beverly
GRCX 2744 Beverly
CYCX 9332 Chelsea
PTX 2798 Chelsea
SEPX 10166 Chelsea
SEPX 10215 Chelsea
SEPX 10199 Chelsea
CSRX 1274 E Braintree
CSRX 1312 E Braintree
CSRX 1270 E Braintree
GATX 25123 Everett
UTLX 1141 Everett
UTLX 3214 Everett
UTLX 90233 Everett
SHPX 9074 Fall River
PX 2484 Boston, Rutherford Ave
UTLX 38476 Boston, Rutherford Ave
MPLX 870 Portland
UTLX 7468 Portland
UTLX 12081 Portland
TWOX 1093 Revere
TWOX 1149 Revere
UTLX 16039 Revere
UTLX 16320 Revere
UTLX 77384 Revere
UTCX 1100 Stoneham
SDRX 13806 Tiverton RI

All of these locations have port facilities, and several still have petroleum offloading facilities to this day. One can see some correlation between car owner and location; it is obvious Gulf was shipping to a facility in Beverly, while Cities Service offloaded in East Braintree. Googling some of the combinations confirms the relationships. I suspect there are some trade annuals, state government publications, or other such references that one could go to to determine the capacities of the installations, if one so desired the information.

Earl Tuson

Hey, guys,
It does seem that the comparison of flavor between fruit obtained from a market, tree, field or in a restaurant in Califrornia to California fruit transported several thousand miles by frt cars to some destination in the northeast might be just a tad out of scope. I mean...soon we'll be arguing about the difference between grapefruit grown on my own tree in Florida compared to that from California that I can buy in a store [ hint...don't go there ] or maybe discussing the quality of snow transported out of Chicago in hopper cars compared with that still on the ground in Iowa [ in 1954, of course ]. So...this thread is now terminated. Time to talk about frt cars, not melons.

Mike Brock
STMFC Owner

Flavor had very little to do with quality in the selling of California fruit to eastern markets. Quality was (I say was because I have been away from fruit growing since 1968) primarily appearance, size and minimums for maturity (ripeness) as regulated by USDA and State of Calif. The minimums for ripeness were quite low, especially in the early season because of the rush to get to market and not have fruit over ripe on arrival. The fruit you bought on the west coast quite often would not meet the standards for shipping but they were usually riper when picked and better flavor than fruit shipped to the east coast.

Lee Thwaits

Mark Plank wrote:

"Yes. Not sure when diesel engines became popular in tractors (I'm
sure someone tried it shortly after van/von Diesel built his first
engine [in the 1880s? I'm away from research information now]),"

Actually Herbert Akroyd Stuart built and patented the diesel engine
in 1890 and had one running in England by 1891, years before Rudoph
Diesel and and the building of his prototype.

As I understand it early diesel engines had a low horsepower to
weight ratio which made them unsuitable for other than stationary
applications and that's why gas engines were used for electro-motive
railcars at first.

There were a few applications, such as John Froelich who created a
oil engine farm tractor in 1892.


Eric Petersson

About 15 years ago, I recall seeing a twin-compartment tank car
loaded at the Esso refinery at Nanticoke, Ontario, waybilled to a
location on the ONR in Northern Ontario. One compartment was
placarded UN 1202 heating oil--the other UN 1203 gasoline. Perhaps
it was for a fuel dealer to receive both heating oil and gasoline at
the same time?

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "ed_mines" <ed_mines@...> wrote:

Didn't pre 1950 cars use a lot more oil than cars do now? Around

1957 I

remember a neighbor had a 1948 dust bomber that he'd use to get to

the

train station.

He had a big box of oil bottles with metal tops that he'd get

filled at

a service station. Maybe lube oil was shipped to some distributors

in

the smaller compartment tank cars.

I assume that some of those local petroleum distributors were

affilated

with the big oil companies.

My question about farm equipment was to see if farm communities

could

use a lot of gasoline even with fewer residents.

An 8000 gallon tank car wouldn't last very long - 800 - 10 gallon

fills

or 400 - 20 gallon fills. Spread this out over a couple of

stations,

deliveries to farms......

Trains pulled by Erie 2-8-4s always had a few tank right in the

middle

bebetween the box cars and the reefers. I guess they were kept as

far

away from the train men as possible.

Ed

Lloyd -

Fascinating information! From what I know (and can say) about the
process used to make furfural, it is also made from rice hulls in the
Gulf Coast area. The hulls are ground up, digested to remove the
furfural, and then de-watered. The process generates a lot of solid
waste in the form of a coarse powder that is then used for fuel on-
site. The spent hulls are high in non-combustable solids.

I suspect what you saw being blown into the cars and to the nearby
powerplant was the waste material after the furfural had been
extracted from the cobs.

Very interesting - would love to see photos of the cars!

A.T. Kott


--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "lloyd keyser" <lloydkeyser@...> wrote:

Having been a resident of Cedar Rapids until 1959 the Quaker Oats

Co.

received corn cobs in old single sheath C&NW box cars from huge
piles: one on the east side of Cedar Rapids, one at Belle Plaine,

IA

and another at Tama IA plus other locations. Cobs were unloaded at
the plant about 10 cars a day and processed into the product called
furfural. This powder was blown in a pipe elevated over the C&NW,

RI

and IC yards to a side track opposite the IC turntable on a truss
structure similar to a conveyor belt. The pipe droped down to a

sheet

metal building and also continued on into the C st power plant. The
sheet metal building on the IC track had a small loading dock. The
steel pipe entered the roof of the building and then was connected

to

a flexible pipe terminating on a roughly 2' by 3' panel. On the
opposite side of the panel the pipe split into two short pipes

turned

90 degrees to the plate. The referenced IC modified hopper had a
split door near the roof at the center of the car on each side. The
door on the loading side was opened and the plate was secured to

the

car opening and the powder blown in from Quaker Oaks filling both
ends simultaniously. I never saw more than one car being loaded at

a

time. occasionally an IC single sheath car would be loaded. Also

the

powder was blown into the power plant and pulverized with the

boiler

coal and burned. I do not know what determined when it was to be
burned. Lack of cars, excess production a possibly. There were no
storage or surge tanks. I have a shot taken from the Quaker Oats
building looking down to the loader on one of the days a box car

was

being loaded. I also remember the covered hoppers but being in High
School took few pictures. I have a diagram sheet showing some
details. The coal hopper doors were removed and replaced with steel
sheet containing small discharge doors. As many things we all wish

we

had taken more. I hope someone can come up with a photo so the car
can be modeled. A friend in Chicago recalls seeing the company
builders photo's but three trips to the archives did not turn up

the

photo's. An add in the IC magizine also turned up nothing. Lloyd
Keyser

Having been a resident of Cedar Rapids until 1959 the Quaker Oats Co.
received corn cobs in old single sheath C&NW box cars from huge
piles: one on the east side of Cedar Rapids, one at Belle Plaine, IA
and another at Tama IA plus other locations. Cobs were unloaded at
the plant about 10 cars a day and processed into the product called
furfural. This powder was blown in a pipe elevated over the C&NW, RI
and IC yards to a side track opposite the IC turntable on a truss
structure similar to a conveyor belt. The pipe droped down to a sheet
metal building and also continued on into the C st power plant. The
sheet metal building on the IC track had a small loading dock. The
steel pipe entered the roof of the building and then was connected to
a flexible pipe terminating on a roughly 2' by 3' panel. On the
opposite side of the panel the pipe split into two short pipes turned
90 degrees to the plate. The referenced IC modified hopper had a
split door near the roof at the center of the car on each side. The
door on the loading side was opened and the plate was secured to the
car opening and the powder blown in from Quaker Oaks filling both
ends simultaniously. I never saw more than one car being loaded at a
time. occasionally an IC single sheath car would be loaded. Also the
powder was blown into the power plant and pulverized with the boiler
coal and burned. I do not know what determined when it was to be
burned. Lack of cars, excess production a possibly. There were no
storage or surge tanks. I have a shot taken from the Quaker Oats
building looking down to the loader on one of the days a box car was
being loaded. I also remember the covered hoppers but being in High
School took few pictures. I have a diagram sheet showing some
details. The coal hopper doors were removed and replaced with steel
sheet containing small discharge doors. As many things we all wish we
had taken more. I hope someone can come up with a photo so the car
can be modeled. A friend in Chicago recalls seeing the company
builders photo's but three trips to the archives did not turn up the
photo's. An add in the IC magizine also turned up nothing. Lloyd
Keyser



--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "al_brown03" <abrown@...> wrote:

The 1/53 ORER says IC 81750-81752 were class LO, height to eaves

12'2",

height to running board 13'4", capacity 3470 cu ft. Open triple

hoppers

in series 81000-81744 were 10'9" to eaves, 2778 cu ft. Shorter

covered

hoppers (29'3" IL, 35'3" OL) in various series between 79000-79981

were

12'2"-12'8" to eaves, 12'10"-13' to running board, 1958 cu ft.
Composite boxcars (8'6" IH) in series 10000-13958 were 12'9" to

eaves,

13'2" to running board; steel boxcars (10'6" IH) in series 27000-

27499

ran 14'5" to eaves, 15' to running board.

So the "furfural" cars were extended a little over the open triples
they came from, but not hugely. They were the height of a cement

hopper

or an older "low" composite box, not of a postwar steel boxcar. The
extra capacity for the light lading was obtained via extra length

not

extra height: I speculate this may have driven the decision to roof
triple hoppers not twins. Interesting beasts: I'd love to see a

picture!

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.


--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "mcindoefalls" <mcindoefalls@> wrote:

According to a Wiki article, sugar cane bagasse and wheat chaff

can

also be used to make furfural. Along with corn cobs, these are
relatively light density loads, like wood chips. Did these IC cars
have very tall side extensions?

Walt Lankenau

Thanks for looking up the reporting marks Richard. I posted the entire
excel sheet in the files section. There will be a link email. There are
a lot more tank cars. At a glance the cars with gas went to some
different jobbers.

If any of the info is incorrect, please list me know so I can change
it. The original list was made by Sam Sherman.

Clark Propst