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Re: AUTO BOX RESPONSE

water.kresse@...
 

Tony,

You are correct. I was looking at a 1937 CBC and they (AAR) were making historical references to post-USRA structural problems. You are also correct that I wasn't able to find a standard double-sheathed auto-box that matched the C&O 82000 and HV 34000 series 40' 6" auto boxes blt in 1924-25.

Al

-------------- Original message --------------
From: Tony Thompson <thompsonmarytony@...>
Thanks for the insite. By 1928 the standard AAR auto-boxes had
changed the clearance envelop and auto-boxes were starting to get
bigger . . . but the smaller ones would still be around.
You mean, of course, the ARA, since the AAR came along in 1934;
and there really wasn't a "standard" ARA automobile car that I know of.
The AAR adopted such a standard in 1942.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: AUTO BOX RESPONSE

Tony Thompson
 

Thanks for the insite. By 1928 the standard AAR auto-boxes had changed the clearance envelop and auto-boxes were starting to get bigger . . . but the smaller ones would still be around.
You mean, of course, the ARA, since the AAR came along in 1934; and there really wasn't a "standard" ARA automobile car that I know of. The AAR adopted such a standard in 1942.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: AUTO BOX RESPONSE

water.kresse@...
 

Earl,

Thanks for the insite. By 1928 the standard AAR auto-boxes had changed the clearance envelop and auto-boxes were starting to get bigger . . . but the smaller ones would still be around.

Al

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Re: AUTO BOX RESPONSE

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

These illustrate some of the pre-Evans auto loader era automobile
cars of the NYCS:

CCC&StL 91672 - Lot 585-B, steel, built 1929:
http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/images/lot-585.jpg

MC 89468 - Lot 590-B, steel, built 1929:
http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/images/lot-590.jpg

NYC 55282, NYC 55847 - Lot 610-B, steel, built 1930:
http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/images/lot-610.jpg
http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/images/nyc-55999.jpg

NYC 56331: This one has me puzzled; the number series popped up as
Lot 633-B, steel automobile boxcars rebuilt in 1935 from Lot 357-B
DS automobile boxcars, which is obviously after the 1929-1930 date
on the wheel reports.
http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/images/lot-633.jpg
http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/images/nyc-56000.jpg

These are distinctively New York Central cars, and lasted well into
the 1960s; unfortunately, there are no kits available for them.


Ben Hom


Re: 1940s tank car questions

Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
 

Most, but not all. It was the Army's goal to be 100% gasoline engines but they never got there. The notable exceptions were M10 Gun Motor Carriages ("tank destroyers", but to most people they are tanks), a portion of bulldozers and some other engineer equipment, and the M4A2 Sherman tanks used by Marines (powered by two GMC truck/bus engines).

Shermans used a number of engines: 9-cylinder radials, the twin diesels, a Ford V-8, five Chrysler straight sixes on a common frame, and the Caterpillar RD-1820 9-cylinder fuel-injected diesel. All were used stateside for training but only the gasoline radials and V-8 were used overseas by the Army.

And all of these were shipped by rail!

KL

----- Original Message -----
From: Dennis Storzek
As far as I know, all the land based vehicles used by the US in WWII
were gasoline powered; jeeps were, I believe the classic "6x6" truck
was, and even Sherman tanks were powered by air cooled radial aircraft
style engines. The local owner of a Stearman trainer claims that his
replacement engine came with the mounting studs for mounting in a tank
installed in the block; they were exactly the same engine.


Re: 1940s tank car questions

Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "feddersenmark" <feddersenmark@...> wrote:

What is Pet oil?
Obviously, the stuff you use to keep the kid's hamster from squeaking :-)

Most likely short for petroleum oil, to differentiate it from
vegetable oil.

Dennis


Re: 1940s tank car questions

Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "eric petersson" <newyorkcentralfan@...>
wrote:

As I understand it early diesel engines had a low horsepower to
weight ratio which made them unsuitable for other than stationary
applications and that's why gas engines were used for electro-motive
railcars at first.
Indeed. Pre WWII diesel engines tended to be massive, heavy, and low
RPM machines, not at all suitable for applications where excessive
weight was detrimental, such as highway vehicles or off road vehicles
like farm tractors.

There were a few applications, such as John Froelich who created a
oil engine farm tractor in 1892.
The operative word here was "oil" engine. These were not diesels, and
neither were the "all fuel" farm tractors someone mentioned. The
defining characteristic of the diesel engine is that it uses solely
compression to ignite the fuel. The farm tractors mentioned used an
electric spark to ignite the fuel, and ran on the rather volatile
distillates until the cylinders were hot enough to adequately vaporize
kerosene, which was still ignited by an electric spark.

As far as I know, all the land based vehicles used by the US in WWII
were gasoline powered; jeeps were, I believe the classic "6x6" truck
was, and even Sherman tanks were powered by air cooled radial aircraft
style engines. The local owner of a Stearman trainer claims that his
replacement engine came with the mounting studs for mounting in a tank
installed in the block; they were exactly the same engine.

I had the opportunity (misfortune?) to deal with a fleet of late
1940's heavy trucks at the railway museum back in the seventies; these
were some of the heaviest models International made at the time, KB-10
and KB-11 models, and they were all gassers. I don't think IH offered
a diesel truck until the R series came out in the early fifties.

When involved with moving a collection of streetcars in about 1972,
the driver from the trucking company we used was a thirty year veteran
of the business, and the sight of the museum's antique truck fleet
brought back fond memories. He reminisced how when he was assigned his
first diesel semi tractor in the early fifties, he could "run rings
around" all the other trucks on the road, to the point where one day
some of the other drivers on a stretch of four lane highway got fed up
and "boxed him in", so he couldn't pass them on the hills for miles.
It would appear that, as late as the mid fifties, a good portion of
the trucks on the highway were still gasoline fueled.

Dennis


Re: AUTO BOX RESPONSE

Earl Tuson
 

"Is there a resourse for understanding how they shipped Ford Model T
and Chevy 490s in auto-boxes out of Detroit/Flint/Pontiac Michigan
area back in the early-1920s?��. . . . . descriptions of number of
cars in 36, 40 and 50 foot double-door cars, distribution by various
lines, and photos would be great.��Also, when did they start to
regularily use end-doors?"
Again, this does not answer your question directly, either, but here are the cars hauling automobile or auto parts traffic in a 1929-30 B&M Wheel Report:

Marks No. Desg From To IL IW IH Cuft Tons Lading
CGW 80284 XA 80000 80398 40.06 9 10 3746 40 Auto Bodies
CNW 35168 XA 34900 36898 40.06 9.02 10 3668 40 Auto Bodies
CCC&StL 91672 XAF 91000 91999 40.06 8.09 10 3544 55 Autos
MC 89468 XA 89000 89999 40.06 9.02 10 3713 55 Autos
NYC 55282 XA 54000 55999 40.06 9.02 10 3713 55 Autos
NYC 55847 XA 54000 55999 40.06 9.02 10 3713 55 Autos
NYC 56331 XAR 56000 56399 40.06 9.03 10 3719 40 Autos

The two loads of auto bodies, unlike all the automobiles, were waybilled <to> Detroit.

Earl Tuson


Re: 1940s tank car questions

feddersenmark
 

Oh, I thought maybe it was what you got when you squeezed your wiener
dog too tightly.


--- In STMFC@..., Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

Mark Feddersen wrote:
What is Pet oil?
That's for when your pet gets old and creaky. You have to
immerse
them in it, so substantial quantities are needed, thus the tank car
loads.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: 1940s tank car questions

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Mark Feddersen wrote:
What is Pet oil?
That's for when your pet gets old and creaky. You have to immerse them in it, so substantial quantities are needed, thus the tank car loads.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: C. C. C. R. Co. Viking Radial All-steel Roof

Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., water.kresse@... wrote:

Does anyone know what "C. C. C. R." stands for in C. C. C. R. Co.
Viking Radial All-steel Roof callout for the circa 1924-25 C&O
83000-83999/originally HV 34000-34999 40-ft double-sheathed auto-box
car roofs? ?? Chicago Climax Car Roof - only guessing ?? They all
(other than Standard Rwy Equip) kind of consolidated under a single
sales office in Chicago I believe???

Thanks, Al Kresse

Mostlikely Chicago-Cleveland Car Roofing Co., which means the actual
roof could be any style they made. "Climax" was a tradename of one
style of radial roof offered by Chicago-Cleveland, but I wouldn't take
the initials to mean this specific roof.

Dennis


Re: C. C. C. R. Co. Viking Radial All-steel Roof

Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., water.kresse@... wrote:

Does anyone know what "C. C. C. R." stands for in C. C. C. R. Co.
Viking Radial All-steel Roof callout for the circa 1924-25 C&O
83000-83999/originally HV 34000-34999 40-ft double-sheathed auto-box
car roofs? ?? Chicago Climax Car Roof - only guessing ?? They all
(other than Standard Rwy Equip) kind of consolidated under a single
sales office in Chicago I believe???

Thanks, Al Kresse

Mostlikely Chicago-Cleveland Car Roofing Co., which means the actual
roof could be any style they made. "Climax" was a tradename of one
style of radial roof offered by Chicago-Cleveland, but I wouldn't take
the initials to mean this specific roof.

Dennis


Re: 1940s tank car questions

feddersenmark
 

What is Pet oil?


--- In STMFC@..., "Earl Tuson" <etuson@...> wrote:

This is a listing of all the
petroleum products delivered in 1949 to two stations on the
M&StL, to two
small towns Dallas Center and Minburn, NW of Des Moines, Ia. The
list
includes, tank car data, refinery if known, Tim Gilbert created
this file
from to information I had compiled. You will note not a drop of
diesel,
mostly distilate and gasoline with some fuel oil and lube oil.
While this
file only covers 1949, in later years something called "road
oil" was
delivered in the summer.
The loaded tank car records in the 1929-30 B&M wheel report I have
been working on certainly do not capture such a complete picture as
the data Doug provided. However, the car loadings (from some 1600
line entries) below offer a somewhat different picture from a
different part of the country and during an earlier era:

Marks No. Lading Destination
PFTX 208 Molasses St Albans VT
CSRX 1326 Fuel Oil Barton VT
CSRX 1514 Fuel Oil Norwich VT
GATX 18743 Gasoline Barre VT
UTLX 16079 Gasoline North Woodstock NH
UTLX 20482 Gasoline Concord NH
UTLX 24516 Gasoline North Woodstock NH
UTLX 27964 Gasoline Ashland NH
UTLX 35249 Gasoline Concord NH
GATX 18725 Kero Barre VT
UTLX 13911 Pet Oil Nashua NH
UTLX 29826 Pet Oil Nashua NH

No house car loadings of drummed products show in the records,
although some cars were carrying empty drums or barrels- I have no
idea if those had been used for petroleum products. Smaller
quantites of lubricating products and such were surely hauled LCL,
but we have little way to quantify that.

Earl Tuson


Re: 1940s tank car questions

Earl Tuson
 

This is a listing of all the
petroleum products delivered in 1949 to two stations on the M&StL, to two
small towns Dallas Center and Minburn, NW of Des Moines, Ia. The list
includes, tank car data, refinery if known, Tim Gilbert created this file
from to information I had compiled. You will note not a drop of diesel,
mostly distilate and gasoline with some fuel oil and lube oil. While this
file only covers 1949, in later years something called "road oil" was
delivered in the summer.
The loaded tank car records in the 1929-30 B&M wheel report I have been working on certainly do not capture such a complete picture as the data Doug provided. However, the car loadings (from some 1600 line entries) below offer a somewhat different picture from a different part of the country and during an earlier era:

Marks No. Lading Destination
PFTX 208 Molasses St Albans VT
CSRX 1326 Fuel Oil Barton VT
CSRX 1514 Fuel Oil Norwich VT
GATX 18743 Gasoline Barre VT
UTLX 16079 Gasoline North Woodstock NH
UTLX 20482 Gasoline Concord NH
UTLX 24516 Gasoline North Woodstock NH
UTLX 27964 Gasoline Ashland NH
UTLX 35249 Gasoline Concord NH
GATX 18725 Kero Barre VT
UTLX 13911 Pet Oil Nashua NH
UTLX 29826 Pet Oil Nashua NH

No house car loadings of drummed products show in the records, although some cars were carrying empty drums or barrels- I have no idea if those had been used for petroleum products. Smaller quantites of lubricating products and such were surely hauled LCL, but we have little way to quantify that.

Earl Tuson


Re: multidome tank cars/tank car discussion

barrybennetttoo <Barrybennetttoo@...>
 

Prior to the late thirties/early forties oil filters were a optional extra
for many low budget cars in the USA and many cars had to have an oil change
every 500 to 700 miles depending on the area in which it was driven.



Barry Bennett

Coventry, england

-------Original Message-------



From: ed_mines

Date: 02/16/08 20:28:04

To: STMFC@...

Subject: [STMFC] multidome tank cars/tank car discussion



Didn't pre 1950 cars use a lot more oil than cars do now? Around 1957 I

remember a neighbor had a 1948 dust bomber that he'd use to get to the

train station.



He had a big box of oil bottles with metal tops that he'd get filled at

a service station. Maybe lube oil was shipped to some distributors in

the smaller compartment tank cars.



I assume that some of those local petroleum distributors were affilated

with the big oil companies.



My question about farm equipment was to see if farm communities could

use a lot of gasoline even with fewer residents.



An 8000 gallon tank car wouldn't last very long - 800 - 10 gallon fills

or 400 - 20 gallon fills. Spread this out over a couple of stations,

deliveries to farms......



Trains pulled by Erie 2-8-4s always had a few tank right in the middle

bebetween the box cars and the reefers. I guess they were kept as far

away from the train men as possible.



Ed


Re: Single vs. double insulated wheelsets

Ned Carey <nedspam@...>
 

Jack Burgess wrote:
The only place that I can think of to use double insulated wheelsets would
be on brass freight cars. There would not be needed even then as long as you
mount both trucks with the insulated wheels on the same side of the car...

My response:
Keeping the insulated wheels all on the same side will prevent a dead short. However it can lead to a hidden problem. The "live" side of the car can cross a gap. This could cause problems depending on how you layout is wired. This happend at my clubs layout with some Kadee metal log cars. The wheelsets had been replaced with Reboxx.

Double insulated wheels are a good idea on metal cars with metal trucks. Otherwise I wouldn't bother.

Ned Carey


Single vs. double insulated wheelsets

gn3397 <heninger@...>
 

Mr. Burgess and Mr. O'Connor,
Thanks for the replies. I appreciate the effort.

Sincerely,
Robert D. Heninger
Stanley, ND


Re: 1940s tank car questions

Chet French <cfrench@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Jack Burgess" <jack@...> wrote:

Doug mentioned:

While this
file only covers 1949, in later years something called "road oil"
was
delivered in the summer. This could be one of two products, 1)
oil used in
make asphalt as rural roads were being paved a heavy tar like
oil, or 2) oil
used to coat gravel roads to hold down the dust in the summer,
which might
be waste or used oil.
Although they may have used a different term in those days, asphalt
pavement
is produced with asphalt which, unlike common lubricating oil, must
be
heated to around 350 degrees and mixed with aggregate to produce
paving
asphalt. While waste or used oil might have been used to spray on
gravel
roads, it wouldn't be very effective in the long run. I suspect
that "road
oil" was actually a lower grade of asphalt that would be heated and
sprayed
onto the gravel. As the road oil cooled, it would bind the gravel
together,
creating a smooth surface as well as reducing dust. One of the
problems of
gravel roads where speeds are higher is that the gravel is
continually
pushed to the center and edges of the road, resulting in the need
for
continual grading to maintain the surface; in the snow belt, that
uneven
surface will really deteriorate during the winter. In addition,
failure to
maintain a gravel road will eventually result in a "washboard"
surface.
Grading the surface to produce a good cross-section and then
applying road
oil can eliminate a lot of maintenance problems.

Several years ago, I posted two lists of all inbound loads for
Staunton, IL on the ITC, from 1944 to 1951. These lists included
many cars of liquid asphalt (road oil) which were shipped out of the
Roxana and Wood River refineries. The lists can be found in messages
10627 and 10656.

Chet French
Dixon, IL


Re: Single vs. double insulated wheelsets

Tim O'Connor
 

Insulation is only needed if the wheels and axles are metal,
or if the sideframes, bolster and wheels are all metal.

Single insulation costs less. But you have to pay attention
to how you insert the wheels. (Insulation all on same side.)

Double insulated wheels are typically for special applications,
like current detection wheelsets.

Tim O'

At 2/17/2008 10:19 AM Sunday, you wrote:
Group,
I am hoping to tap into the collective wisdom of the list members. On my models of steam
era freightcars, would you all suggest standardizing on single or double insulated wheelsets?
What are the advantages and disadvantages of each? Thanks.

Sincerely,
Robert D. Heninger
Stanley, ND


C. C. C. R. Co. Viking Radial All-steel Roof

water.kresse@...
 

Does anyone know what "C. C. C. R." stands for in C. C. C. R. Co. Viking Radial All-steel Roof callout for the circa 1924-25 C&O 83000-83999/originally HV 34000-34999 40-ft double-sheathed auto-box car roofs? ?? Chicago Climax Car Roof - only guessing ?? They all (other than Standard Rwy Equip) kind of consolidated under a single sales office in Chicago I believe???

Thanks, Al Kresse

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