Date   

Re: 1940s tank car questions

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Feb 17, 2008, at 5:46 PM, Kurt Laughlin wrote:

Was this the famous "Grapevine Hill" of "Hot Rod Lincoln" fame?
Yes.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: 1940s tank car questions

Jack Burgess <jack@...>
 

I don't think that they did that on an Interstate....the Federal government
paid for the Interstate system and had very rigid standards which required
concrete roadways except in special circumstances. The process that you
describe sounds more like macadam in which rock is placed on the roadway and
then hot oil sprayed on the aggregate to hold it in place...but we are
straying from freight car subjects...

Jack Burgess
www.yosemitevalleyrr.com


Re: 1940s tank car questions

Larry Jackman <Ljack70117@...>
 

Interstate 84 in Idaho when you leave Utah is made from oil and gravel (sand) They put the oil down and then spread the sand and rolled it in,. In Kansas they did the same thing on a lot of the dirt roads.


Thank you
Larry Jackman
ljack70117@...
Boca Raton FL 33434
I want to die in my sleep like
my grandfather did, not screaming
like the other people in his car.

On Feb 17, 2008, at 9:48 PM, Douglas Harding wrote:

The reason for applying oil to gravel roads in Iowa was simply to keep the
dust down. It was not to create a paved surface. While some counties did the
spraying, it was most generaly applied by a private contractor and paid by
the local farmer whose wife did not want road dust on her fresh laundry.
Typically they paid for the stretch of road that was adjacent to their farm
house, nothing more. So you would be driving down a road, raising rooster
tails of dust, then hit an oiled stretch of a 100 or 200 feet, then back
into the dust, until the next farmstead. And all the problems Jack described
did occure, and still do. Though oiling roads has fallen out of favor,
probably due to air conditioning and clothes dryers as much as to
environmental concerns.

At the same time period the state and/or counties were slowly converting
gravel and dirt roads to hard surface. Concrete or asphalt was used for this
purpose. The heavy oils that had to be heated, again as Jack described.

Doug Harding
www.iowacentralrr.org

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Re: 1940s tank car questions

Douglas Harding <dharding@...>
 

The reason for applying oil to gravel roads in Iowa was simply to keep the
dust down. It was not to create a paved surface. While some counties did the
spraying, it was most generaly applied by a private contractor and paid by
the local farmer whose wife did not want road dust on her fresh laundry.
Typically they paid for the stretch of road that was adjacent to their farm
house, nothing more. So you would be driving down a road, raising rooster
tails of dust, then hit an oiled stretch of a 100 or 200 feet, then back
into the dust, until the next farmstead. And all the problems Jack described
did occure, and still do. Though oiling roads has fallen out of favor,
probably due to air conditioning and clothes dryers as much as to
environmental concerns.

At the same time period the state and/or counties were slowly converting
gravel and dirt roads to hard surface. Concrete or asphalt was used for this
purpose. The heavy oils that had to be heated, again as Jack described.

Doug Harding
www.iowacentralrr.org

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2:16 PM


Re: AUTO BOX RESPONSE

Earl Tuson
 

NYC 56331: This one has me puzzled; the number series popped up as
Lot 633-B, steel automobile boxcars rebuilt in 1935 from Lot 357-B
DS automobile boxcars, which is obviously after the 1929-1930 date
on the wheel reports.
Good eye, Ben. There are actually two trains at the end of the book from 1936, which this car was from, and I failed to note that previously. My apologies.

Earl Tuson


Re: 1940s tank car questions

Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
 

Was this the famous "Grapevine Hill" of "Hot Rod Lincoln" fame?

NOTE: Lincolns used gasoline that was shipped by FREIGHT CARS in the STEAM ERA.

KL

----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Hendrickson
...Still we were unable to go much faster that 4 MPH on the
Grapevine to Fort Tejon grade to Los Angeles. There was no air
conditioning so we pulled up the floor bords to get air in the cab.
Yeah, I know, we're way off topic here, but I can't resist adding to
Lindsay's account that I well remember driving up the Grapevine


Re: 1940s tank car questions

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Feb 17, 2008, at 3:46 PM, W. Lindsay Smith wrote:

...Still we were unable to go much faster that 4 MPH on the
Grapevine to Fort Tejon grade to Los Angeles. There was no air
conditioning so we pulled up the floor bords to get air in the cab.
Yeah, I know, we're way off topic here, but I can't resist adding to
Lindsay's account that I well remember driving up the Grapevine in the
summer with my family in the years before and during WW II and seeing
truck drivers creeping along in bottom gear with hand throttles wide
open and the drivers standing on the running boards with the door open,
steering with one hand, in order to get out of the stifling hot cabs.
Overheated engines were common, too, and the Calif. highway dept. had
numerous water stops along the route where trucks (and cars too, for
that matter) could cool off and replace the water boiled out of their
radiators.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: AUTO BOX RESPONSE

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Feb 17, 2008, at 1:07 PM, benjaminfrank_hom wrote:

The appliance that would force the development was the Evans Auto
Loader, which required a taller car to accomodate both the extra
automobiles when loaded and to stow the loader when empty or when the
car was used to handle other freight. Widespread use of these taller
automobile cars would not occur until 1934 with the introduction of
the PRR Class X31 automobile boxcars. The older automobile boxcars
were still around, but they would be bumped from finished automobile
service, with some rebuilt into general service boxcars such as the
PRR Class X28A or N&W Class BPA.
All true as far as it goes, but Ben's perspective here is that of a
historian and modeler whose primary interest is eastern RRs. Ten foot
high automobile cars, many of the 50'6" in length, were common in the
1920s on many western railroads (ATSF, SP, UP, GN, NP, WP) and some
east-of-the-Rockies lines like the MoPac and CB&Q, though rare on RRs
east of the Mississippi owing to their limited clearances. Such cars
were easily converted for use with Evans racks, and many were so
converted. By contrast, eastern RRs had to build new, taller cars like
the PRR X31s to accommodate Evans racks.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: AUTO BOX RESPONSE

Jeff English
 

The car number cited by Earl, NYC 56331, must be in error since there
were no 56000-series numbers assigned before the Lot 633-B cars Ben
cites below.

Earl, could it be other than 56?

Jeff English
Troy, New York

--- In STMFC@..., "benjaminfrank_hom" <b.hom@...> wrote:
<snip>

NYC 56331: This one has me puzzled; the number series popped up as
Lot 633-B, steel automobile boxcars rebuilt in 1935 from Lot 357-B
DS automobile boxcars, which is obviously after the 1929-1930 date
on the wheel reports.
http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/images/lot-633.jpg
http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/images/nyc-56000.jpg

These are distinctively New York Central cars, and lasted well into
the 1960s; unfortunately, there are no kits available for them.


Ben Hom


Re: AUTO BOX RESPONSE

water.kresse@...
 

Ben,

The same applies to Tony's response. I had a 1937 CBC that had references back to December 1928 and then later showed a Plate B clearance diagram. I was not careful about what had transpired in the book mixing old with new info.

When did that new plate accually take affect?

Al

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "benjaminfrank_hom" <b.hom@...>
Al Kresse wrote:
"By 1928 the standard AAR auto-boxes had changed the clearance
envelope and auto-boxes were starting to get bigger . . . but the
smaller ones would still be around."

Al, do you have a reference to back that statement? Automobile
boxcars c. 1928 were still relatively small cars; the PRR Class X28
were 9 ft 3 in IH cars. The New York Central cars in Earl's post that
were built in 1929 were indeed taller cars at 10 ft IH but lacked
Evans auto loaders.

The appliance that would force the development was the Evans Auto
Loader, which required a taller car to accomodate both the extra
automobiles when loaded and to stow the loader when empty or when the
car was used to handle other freight. Widespread use of these taller
automobile cars would not occur until 1934 with the introduction of
the PRR Class X31 automobile boxcars. The older automobile boxcars
were still around, but they would be bumped from finished automobile
service, with some rebuilt into general service boxcars such as the
PRR Class X28A or N&W Class BPA.

Ben Hom


Re: O Scale Magazine

Bill Kelly
 

Tom,
try:
www.oscalemag.com

This may be the magazine you are hunting.

Later,
Bill Kelly

Thomas Baker wrote:


Is the magazine called "O Scale Railroading" or "O Scale Modeling"
still being published. It used to have a website, but recently I
have been unable to find the site.

Tom


O Scale Magazine

Thomas Baker
 

Is the magazine called "O Scale Railroading" or "O Scale Modeling" still being published. It used to have a website, but recently I have been unable to find the site.

Tom


Re: 1940s tank car questions

W. Lindsay Smith <wlindsays2000@...>
 

Dennis,
In the 1940s loads were smaller and even tough I was yet to be a
teenager, I have used hand carts to load and unload trucks. During
WWII they used whatever was available. I once drove a White Tractor
with chain drive and Deisel Hall Scott 200 hp engine and lumber
rollers. The truck and bob tail carried a big load. We backed the
truck or trailer under a load on tall saw horse stands that were
stacked by hand at the green chain. To unload, we used a pinch bar
to rotate the rollers and until the back of the bundle hit the
ground, started the truck and pulled away quickly. It was not
particularly fast but recall, if it was faster than a ox or horse, it
was more productive.
Deisel engines like a constant rpm and have a narrow torque/rpm
curve; gasoline engines are more maneuverable and a wider prm/torque
curve. Deisels liked long trips for economy and efficiency.
In 1942, my boss ordered 5 White cabs, chain drives and 250 hp
Cummings engines with lumber racks. They were delivered in 1946. He
started using fork lift loaders so the trucks could handle two 700
mile hauls a week. Both HS and Cummings engines had peak power at
2,500 rpm. Diesel Drivers were the best paid and they were fast on
the road. Still we were unable to go much faster that 4 MPH on the
Grapevine to Fort Tejon grade to Los Angeles. There was no air
conditioning so we pulled up the floor bords to get air in the cab.
We had gas, Diesel, grease, and lube oil delivered by tank trucks to
the yard. The local fuel dealer was a busy yard and warehouse
operation with several vertical tanks. Humans did a lot of lift,
carry and stack in the "good old days."
Lindsay
--- In STMFC@..., "Dennis Storzek" <destorzek@...> wrote:

--- In STMFC@..., "eric petersson" <newyorkcentralfan@>
wrote:

As I understand it early diesel engines had a low horsepower to
weight ratio which made them unsuitable for other than stationary
applications and that's why gas engines were used for electro-
motive
railcars at first.
Indeed. Pre WWII diesel engines tended to be massive, heavy, and low
RPM machines, not at all suitable for applications where excessive
weight was detrimental, such as highway vehicles or off road
vehicles
like farm tractors.

There were a few applications, such as John Froelich who created
a
oil engine farm tractor in 1892.
The operative word here was "oil" engine. These were not diesels,
and
neither were the "all fuel" farm tractors someone mentioned. The
defining characteristic of the diesel engine is that it uses solely
compression to ignite the fuel. The farm tractors mentioned used an
electric spark to ignite the fuel, and ran on the rather volatile
distillates until the cylinders were hot enough to adequately
vaporize
kerosene, which was still ignited by an electric spark.

As far as I know, all the land based vehicles used by the US in
WWII
were gasoline powered; jeeps were, I believe the classic "6x6" truck
was, and even Sherman tanks were powered by air cooled radial
aircraft
style engines. The local owner of a Stearman trainer claims that his
replacement engine came with the mounting studs for mounting in a
tank
installed in the block; they were exactly the same engine.

I had the opportunity (misfortune?) to deal with a fleet of late
1940's heavy trucks at the railway museum back in the seventies;
these
were some of the heaviest models International made at the time, KB-
10
and KB-11 models, and they were all gassers. I don't think IH
offered
a diesel truck until the R series came out in the early fifties.

When involved with moving a collection of streetcars in about 1972,
the driver from the trucking company we used was a thirty year
veteran
of the business, and the sight of the museum's antique truck fleet
brought back fond memories. He reminisced how when he was assigned
his
first diesel semi tractor in the early fifties, he could "run rings
around" all the other trucks on the road, to the point where one day
some of the other drivers on a stretch of four lane highway got fed
up
and "boxed him in", so he couldn't pass them on the hills for miles.
It would appear that, as late as the mid fifties, a good portion of
the trucks on the highway were still gasoline fueled.

Dennis


Re: Single vs. double insulated wheelsets

proto48er
 

Guys -

I have to use double insulated wheelsets on metal trucks because I
have many brass/metal cars. I also use only brass couplers, and it
is possible to have a short from the tender back through the train
via the metal couplers. No lighted cabooses either. You have not
lived until you try to find a short through the couplers from one end
of a train to the other!

A.T. Kott

--- In STMFC@..., "Ned Carey" <nedspam@...> wrote:

Jack Burgess wrote:
The only place that I can think of to use double insulated
wheelsets would
be on brass freight cars. There would not be needed even then as
long as you
mount both trucks with the insulated wheels on the same side of the
car...


Re: AUTO BOX RESPONSE

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Al Kresse wrote:
"By 1928 the standard AAR auto-boxes had changed the clearance
envelope and auto-boxes were starting to get bigger . . . but the
smaller ones would still be around."

Al, do you have a reference to back that statement? Automobile
boxcars c. 1928 were still relatively small cars; the PRR Class X28
were 9 ft 3 in IH cars. The New York Central cars in Earl's post that
were built in 1929 were indeed taller cars at 10 ft IH but lacked
Evans auto loaders.

The appliance that would force the development was the Evans Auto
Loader, which required a taller car to accomodate both the extra
automobiles when loaded and to stow the loader when empty or when the
car was used to handle other freight. Widespread use of these taller
automobile cars would not occur until 1934 with the introduction of
the PRR Class X31 automobile boxcars. The older automobile boxcars
were still around, but they would be bumped from finished automobile
service, with some rebuilt into general service boxcars such as the
PRR Class X28A or N&W Class BPA.


Ben Hom


Re: AUTO BOX RESPONSE

water.kresse@...
 

Tony,

You are correct. I was looking at a 1937 CBC and they (AAR) were making historical references to post-USRA structural problems. You are also correct that I wasn't able to find a standard double-sheathed auto-box that matched the C&O 82000 and HV 34000 series 40' 6" auto boxes blt in 1924-25.

Al

-------------- Original message --------------
From: Tony Thompson <thompsonmarytony@...>
Thanks for the insite. By 1928 the standard AAR auto-boxes had
changed the clearance envelop and auto-boxes were starting to get
bigger . . . but the smaller ones would still be around.
You mean, of course, the ARA, since the AAR came along in 1934;
and there really wasn't a "standard" ARA automobile car that I know of.
The AAR adopted such a standard in 1942.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: AUTO BOX RESPONSE

Tony Thompson
 

Thanks for the insite. By 1928 the standard AAR auto-boxes had changed the clearance envelop and auto-boxes were starting to get bigger . . . but the smaller ones would still be around.
You mean, of course, the ARA, since the AAR came along in 1934; and there really wasn't a "standard" ARA automobile car that I know of. The AAR adopted such a standard in 1942.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: AUTO BOX RESPONSE

water.kresse@...
 

Earl,

Thanks for the insite. By 1928 the standard AAR auto-boxes had changed the clearance envelop and auto-boxes were starting to get bigger . . . but the smaller ones would still be around.

Al

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Re: AUTO BOX RESPONSE

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

These illustrate some of the pre-Evans auto loader era automobile
cars of the NYCS:

CCC&StL 91672 - Lot 585-B, steel, built 1929:
http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/images/lot-585.jpg

MC 89468 - Lot 590-B, steel, built 1929:
http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/images/lot-590.jpg

NYC 55282, NYC 55847 - Lot 610-B, steel, built 1930:
http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/images/lot-610.jpg
http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/images/nyc-55999.jpg

NYC 56331: This one has me puzzled; the number series popped up as
Lot 633-B, steel automobile boxcars rebuilt in 1935 from Lot 357-B
DS automobile boxcars, which is obviously after the 1929-1930 date
on the wheel reports.
http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/images/lot-633.jpg
http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/images/nyc-56000.jpg

These are distinctively New York Central cars, and lasted well into
the 1960s; unfortunately, there are no kits available for them.


Ben Hom


Re: 1940s tank car questions

Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
 

Most, but not all. It was the Army's goal to be 100% gasoline engines but they never got there. The notable exceptions were M10 Gun Motor Carriages ("tank destroyers", but to most people they are tanks), a portion of bulldozers and some other engineer equipment, and the M4A2 Sherman tanks used by Marines (powered by two GMC truck/bus engines).

Shermans used a number of engines: 9-cylinder radials, the twin diesels, a Ford V-8, five Chrysler straight sixes on a common frame, and the Caterpillar RD-1820 9-cylinder fuel-injected diesel. All were used stateside for training but only the gasoline radials and V-8 were used overseas by the Army.

And all of these were shipped by rail!

KL

----- Original Message -----
From: Dennis Storzek
As far as I know, all the land based vehicles used by the US in WWII
were gasoline powered; jeeps were, I believe the classic "6x6" truck
was, and even Sherman tanks were powered by air cooled radial aircraft
style engines. The local owner of a Stearman trainer claims that his
replacement engine came with the mounting studs for mounting in a tank
installed in the block; they were exactly the same engine.

125481 - 125500 of 195564