Dan


There's a fine line between hobby and mental illness.

Great pictures!! I thought I was the only one who couldn't find them posted. Fine mess I would say?

Al Kresse

I looked through "Revenue Freight Cars of the Pere Marquette" and
found a few things relevant to this.

Firstly - the PM's three-panel Hutchins cars were rebuilt from
double-sheathed ends.

Secondly, as far as I can gather from the info in the book, the PM's
first cars built with steel ends came in 1919 with 5/5/5 USRA ends,
then switched to 8+8 vertical Vulcan ends on the 85000-85999 series
built starting in 1922.

Relevant to the discussion below, the first series of PM cars
originally built with Hutchins ends was 86000-87499, built in 1923
with 4-panel square-corner ends. After that came the 88000-88349
series, built in 1926 with 4-panel tapered-corner ends.

The 1923 build date of the 86000-series cars matches with the build
dates of some of the P&N's 1100-series cars that had 4-panel,
square-corner ends; the P&N's 24000-series, which are very similar to
the PM's 88000-series, were built in 1925.

I think this evidence serves to clarify the issue somewhat - the
earlier Hutchins ends have the square-corners, and the tapered-corner
ribs are on the later version of the Hutchins end.

Frank Valoczy
Vancouver, BC

--- In STMFC@..., destron@... wrote:

late Hutchins ends with height extension (square corner with no

indent)

I've seen conflicting commentary on which is the early Hutchins end and
which is the late one. I know on the Westerfield site the

square-cornered

ribs are referred to as the late style, and the tapered-corner ribs are
referred to as the early style.

This puzzles me, though, as the square-cornered ends seem to be found on
cars earlier than the later ones - examples being the P&N's 10000-series
with 3-panel square-corner ends (first ORER listing I've seen was 1915),
and PM cars with 3-panel ends as well (I'm not at home so don't have

my PM

book at hand to check, but will do so when I go home); I've seen such
3-panel ends elsewhere, too - I can't remember which roads, though,
perhaps CNJ? The tapered corners don't seem to appear until later than
that - in the 20s. I suspect there might be some overlap in when

they were

produced, too: Westerfield lists the Southern SU cars as first

having the

tapered ends, from 1922; P&N's 1100-series DS cars have build dates of
1923 and have the square corner. And, P&N's 24000 series auto

boxcars (the

ones that went to the AC&Y) were built in 1925 (a photo of 24099 has a
build date of 7-25) and have the tapered corners.

I would suggest, then, that the earlier end is in fact the square-corner
variety, unless someone has documented evidence otherwise? I've only

seen

three-panel Hutchins ends with square-corner ribs, and those are all on
very low IH cars (some less than 9') - which I'd think is certainly an
indication of being older, than taller IH cars.

Frank Valoczy
Vancouver, BC

-----
http://hydrorail.hostwq.net/index.html - Rails along the Fraser
http://hydrorail.rrpicturearchives.net/ - Rail Photos

Guys;



For that one that looks pretty much like an original USRA clone, with the
flat drop ends, the poling loops might be a hint. It may be an ex-NYC or
ex-P,McK&Y/P&LE car.



The B&O cars got different ends and got modified pretty quickly. The PRR
G25's did not match that car in details. The RDG's also did not exactly
match that one in details.



I also agree that the other one has replacement sides and ends. They look
too new for the rest of the car.



Elden Gatwood



________________________________

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
rwitt_2000
Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 11:02 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Modeling possibilities?




Ben Hom wrote:

Bruce Smith wrote:
"Aren't those 50 ton Andrews trucks? The car appears to be stenciled
for 100,000 lbs not 140,000 lbs."

They are DEFINITELY Andrews trucks - cancel that recommendation to use
Bowser Crown trucks!

I concur with Bruce and Ben the truck are 50-ton Andrews.

The question remains, I believe the CSS received these gondolas second
hand, who were the original owners?

Bob Witt

I see the photos of these mystery gons were finally approved. I am looking
for information on the manufacture of these cars. The ends on the drop
bottom in photo #1 has me wondering, as well as the side stake spacing in
photo #2. The photos are in the "mystery gons" photo album.
http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/photos/browse/47bb?c=

Doug Harding
www.iowacentralrr.org

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.1/1301 - Release Date: 2/27/2008
8:35 AM

Ben Hom wrote:

Bruce Smith wrote:
"Aren't those 50 ton Andrews trucks? The car appears to be stenciled
for 100,000 lbs not 140,000 lbs."

They are DEFINITELY Andrews trucks - cancel that recommendation to use
Bowser Crown trucks!

I concur with Bruce and Ben the truck are 50-ton Andrews.

The question remains, I believe the CSS received these gondolas second
hand, who were the original owners?

Bob Witt

My guess - based on the origin of the cars and Hercules' business in printing and paper chemicals - is that they were hauling paper-making chemicals.

Think about it: If they acquired a company that used and owned tank cars, wouldn't it be logical for them to continue those tank cars in the same service?

With respect to nitroglycerin, I can assure you from my time working with nitroglycerin at Hercules' Magna Utah explosives plant that it would be impossible to transport nitrogylcerin in a conventional tank car. I suspect you'll find that it was also illegal.

KL

Andy, Please bring a couple of undecs to Perris for me. Thanks Paul

I am considering adding a Mather boxcar to my fleet, for fun and
variety. I model 1960 or so.

I see Walthers/P2K offers such a car, in various road names. I am
familiar with Muncie and Western and C&IM.

Did any of these cars last past 1960? Which road names of those
offered and lettering variation would be appropriate for this late date?

Suggestions and insights would be appreciated.

That reminds me that Richard sent me several very helpful views of the 65' gondolas to aid me in lettering my ancient Lobaugh with either Champ decals or CDS transfers or some combination of them. Perhaps I'll get to it after spring thaw...
Jace Kahn, General Manager
Ceres and Canisteo RR Co.

I wanted to add a Wabash 65' mill gon to the layout. I planned to use
Ted's
decals and repaint one I picked up cheap. Now I see athearn has done
the
Wabash scheme as well. Do the Wabash experts know if there are
problems with
the Wabash factory paint on the athearn car? I don't mind painting and
decaling but one less project would be nice.

Brian, I haven't seen one of these models yet, so it would be good to
get an evaluation by a Wabash maven like Chet French who has actually
had an opportunity to compare the model with the prototype data.
However, when the 65' gons were under development, I sent several
photos of the Wabash cars to Craig Walker, their R&D guy, and he
generally does a fine job with paint and lettering if he has good
information to work from. The problem at Athearn isn't their R&D
department, it's the sales department that insists on putting bogus P/L
schemes on models (e.g., in the case of the 65' mill gons, NKP, MP, and
NP) when there were correct prototypes like the Wabash cars that could
have been modeled. Now that they've done the Wabash car, I may have to
get one, even though I probably already have too many 65' mill gons and
will have to rotate them on my diorama.

Richard Hendrickson


3b. Re: Wabash 65' mill gons

Brian,

The Athearn Wabash car looks good. The only thing they missed, after
looking at Richard's photos and Gary's paint diagram, was the paint
data oval, which should be on the fourth panel from the right edge of
the side. Athearn numbered their cars 12017 and 12033, which fall in
the 12000 - 12049 group built in 12-1941 by Decatur shop. I also have
Ted Culotta's decals for lettering this car, but still have not found
an undec car.

Chet French
Dixon, IL

_________________________________________________________________
Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser!
http://biggestloser.msn.com/

This is the first photo of one of these cars (8000 series) I've seen in
revenue service. Believe me I've been looking. According to the Monon
Car Dept. records at the Monon Historical Society these cars were scraped
en masse in 1939-40.

Thanks for the photo!

Nothing to thank.

Unfortunately I have no idea anymore as to where I found it - it was
somewhere out on the ether of the web, though.

Frank Valoczy
Vancouver, BC

-----
http://hydrorail.hostwq.net/index.html - Rails along the Fraser
http://hydrorail.rrpicturearchives.net/ - Rail Photos

--- In STMFC@..., Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...>
wrote:

The delay is not a problem, Richard...I appreciate the tenacity!

I appreciate the info too, as this confirms for me I can model one of
the cars with original mechanical fans.

I am a little confused by the 11/43 electric fan install date though.
Prior to your response, I started digging into the ATSF Reefer Book,
the PFE book, and the Carbuilder's Cyclopedias to try and establish a
time-frame for electric fans.

Looking at PFE rebuilds and new cars, I did not find any references to
electric fans being installed prior to the early 1950's. The earliest
Santa Fe experiment with electric fans appears to date 1950, and the
1953 Carbuilders Cyc is the first time I see an ad for electric fans.

Thanks,
-John Hile

benjaminfrank_hom wrote:

Dave Nelson wrote:
"I have a photo of some Hercules std. gauge house cars... they look
like reefers as it's T&G wood siding, plug door, and they may well
have been insulated, but offhand I don't recall if they were XM, XI,
or something else."

Here's another photo of some different HPCX house cars - these look
like converted reefers:
http://www.phillynmra.org/Sales.html

Yeah, that's the photo (that I purchased from Bob's Photos). Somehow I
doubt that's Bob's web page tho.

Dave Nelson

In answer to the question of what the tank cars transported, I spoke
with an armorer who dealt with Hercules Powder while at Western
Cartridge in St. Louis. Hercules would have been shipping components
for explosives. Hercules Powder maintained a plant near Godfrey,
Illinois where they produced dynamite and gunpowder.
For dynamite, both glycerin and nitro would ship by tank car to the
plant where they would be combined with inert earth. For gunpowder
and nitrocellulose (guncotton or cordite) sulphur cuold be shipped in
an aqueous solution. Given that the Hercules cars were equipped with
steam lines, glycerin would certainly by a cargo.

I hope this helps.

John Carty


--- In STMFC@..., "John Hile" <john66h@...> wrote:

Hello All,

I've gathered the following info on Hercules Powder Co (HPCX) 8000g,
type 21 tanks with the hope of modeling a couple circa 1952-53 using
the factory decorated Proto 2000 kits. As I understand it, these

cars

are former Paper Makers Chem Co (PMCX) which received new reporting
marks but kept their orig numbers when Hercules acquired PMC.

Problem

is, I have some conflicting and incomplete info...

Proto 2000 HCPX car numbers I am aware of: 705, 706, 708, 714, 718

Car 705: Type 21? Listed in 1/53 ORER, capy 8036g.

Cars 706-711: Type 21? 706, 708, 711 listed in 1/53 ORER, capy

8050g.

Oct 1997 RMJ article, however, says 706-711 are type 27, and ORER
capy matches that of other known type 27 cars.

Car 714: Type 21? No longer listed in 1/53 ORER, listed 1/45 ORER
with 8000g capy.

Car 718: PMCX 718 bldr photo, RMJ Feb 1998. Listed 1/53 ORER, capy

8000g.

Am hoping someone on the list can shed some light, or contribute

more

data to the cause.

Thanks,

John Hile
Blacksburg, VA

--- In STMFC@..., "Peter Ness" <prness@...> wrote:

I am sure more authoritative responses will appear and I hope to
learn more about this company.

Thanks for that summary Peter. I will add from my notes that I have
Hercules Powder Co. dating from 1882-1955. It is my understanding
that the mining industry in CA was a draw and/or reason for Hercules
to be in CA. This, along with military contracts for gunpowder,
explosives, etc., kept up their explosives business.

I have notes that Hercules built a plant on "the coast of Southern
California" shortly after 1915 to derive solvents such as acetone and
ketone from kelp/seaweed fermentation. From the article, it sounds as
though acetone, ethyl-methyl ketone, acetone oil, acetic acid, and
ethyl acetate were all products to be derived - which Hercules needed,
but were pricey due to war-time scarcity of traditional raw materials.
Potash and iodine were by-products. I have additional info that
leads me to believe the plant did not last past 1917.

-John Hile

This is the first photo of one of these cars (8000 series) I've seen in revenue service. Believe me I've been looking. According to the Monon Car Dept. records at the Monon Historical Society these cars were scraped en masse in 1939-40.

Thanks for the photo!

Mike Aufderheide
Modeling the Monon

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...> wrote:
Frank Valoczy wrote:
"Want to bet that that Monon boxcar is an SU? ;)"

Sounds like a good call to me, and entirely appropriate for the 1930s.
Also available from Westerfield as kit number 4106.
http://www.westerfield.biz/4106_66056.htm

Ben Hom






---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

--- In STMFC@..., "Dave Nelson" <Lake_Muskoka@...> wrote:

That would be in Hercules, CA., on Suisun Bay, along the SP's Cal-P

mainline

between Oakland and Sacramento. The company used a 36" narrow gauge

track

to move stuff around the large property. It's all suburban housing now.

Atlas Powder Works was also located in the area at Giant and/or Nitro,
CA. I believe Point Pinole Park is built on the site of the old Atlas
works with walking paths laid on the grade of the narrow-gauge tram
system there.

John Hile

Any additional information on the new box car? Are any of the other companies saying order now and we will tell you how much later?


Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS

Dave Nelson wrote:
"I have a photo of some Hercules std. gauge house cars... they look like
reefers as it's T&G wood siding, plug door, and they may well have been
insulated, but offhand I don't recall if they were XM, XI, or something
else."

Here's another photo of some different HPCX house cars - these look
like converted reefers:
http://www.phillynmra.org/Sales.html


Ben Hom

Frank Valoczy wrote:
"Yeah, the stencil says 100,000, and the ORER listing says that, too. I
tweaked the gamma of the image a bit to lighten it and get a clearer
view, and compared it to an Accurail Andrews truck I have at hand...
looks fairly close to the truck on the image."

I agree - I'd go with the Accurail Andrews truck for this model.


Ben Hom