Date   

GN first steel box cars

Mike Redden <redden@...>
 

The November and December 2001 issues of Mainline Modeler had articles, drawings
and photos about the 12-panel GN bocars.


Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 07:50:41 -0500
From: "Roger Robar" <rrobar@...>
Subject: GN first steel box cars

To the list;
What were the first GN all steel box cars? I cannot pin these down with my
ORER's I have. Any info on the manufacture, number series, dates and models
I could use would be most appreciated. TIA, Roger Robar


New Egroup

Clark Propst <cepropst@...>
 

Allen Furguson and I started a new Egroup on 4-1. It's purpose is to
discuss the assembly of resin kits using duct tape.
Clark


Re: April photo

CBarkan@...
 

Maybe someone already replied to this but the only covered platform I see
only has tracks on one side, as you suggest it should. However, I could also
imagine street type trackage on both sides giving them flexibility. But that
does not appear to be the case here.

Chris

In a message dated 4/5/02 10:45:05 PM, drs@... writes:

<< Why the covered platform? An obvious answer is to provide a place for
offloading freight out of the sun or weather, but if that were its use
then I'd think one side would have tracks and the other paving for
trucks to pull up to, rather than tracks on both sides. >>


Re: GATX Lettering

CBarkan@...
 

Dear RG,

Glad to hear of your tank car decals and that you are using RH's photos as a
basis for these. These could be pretty handy. Do you exactly reproduce the
letter stencils (AKA "fonts") used, or simply select a close match from some
commercial computer fonts? Also, I lost track of what era the TC decal sets
represent.

Chris

In a message dated 4/4/02 7:13:19 AM, cepropst@... writes:

<< Back to the decal set- you can do up to 3 cars but they will be in
different eras. The same applies to my TH&B hopper set. Richard was
most kind to email me several photos and send xerox copies of others
that made the GATX set possible. My next tank car set will be based on
photos Russ Pinchbeck dug up last year while working on the CGTX war
emergency project. Keep then photos comming.
I'm pullin' fer ya, we're all in this together
Allen Ferguson >>


Tank Car Bottom Fittings Protection

CBarkan@...
 

The AAR Tank Car Committee (TCC) required that all DOT spec stub sill tank
cars ordered after 1 January 1978 be equipped with "Level A" bottom
discontinuity protection. They further implemented a retrofit program for
stub sill cars transporting hazardous materials that extended from 1 Jan 1980
through 1 July 1994, by which time all such cars were to be retrofitted.
There were different levels of protection that were based on an assessment of
the hazard of the material transported, i.e. more hazardous, more protection.
This also affected the temporal order of the retrofit, the more hazardous
materials were to be retrofitted first. I think there were some
"stragglers", i.e. a few cars that didn't get completed in time, and I also
think that some of the newly classified hazmats, i.e. molten sulfur may have
been exempted, or at least had their timetable for retrofit extended.

DOT may have formally specified bottom fitting protection in their regs in
the late 1980s, but by that time the practice was well underway. What is
relevant from a modeling perspective is when it began occurring, as opposed
to when it was formally adopted into the federal regs. In the case of tank
cars, most requirements are initiated by the TCC. The AAR TCC has had most
aspects of tank car design requirements delegated to it by government since
the ICC first entered the tank car safety arena in 1927 (obligatory steam era
reference!). The DOT continues to incorporate by reference the AAR Tank Car
Manual (M-1002).

Chris

In a message dated 4/5/02 7:36:10 PM, gounleys@... writes:

<< Bottom outlet skid protection was mandated by the FRA in the late 1980s,
IIRC. Checking the Code of Federal Regulations on the web might yield the
dates after which new cars had to be built with the shields and by which
existing cars had to be equipped.

George Gounley >>


reminder about informal DC area gathering April 20

Bill Welch <bwelch@...>
 

Check Ted's steam era online magazine for info about the informal prototype modelers gathering Randy Anderson and I are hosting April 20 in Oakton, VA. Still time to send a SASE to get directions.


misc. tank car identification

Robert Kirkham <rdkirkham@...>
 

I was working through some archives this afternoon and came across some old
freight car snap shots taken in the CPR's Alyth yard, in Calgary Alberta, in
1921-24. Sorry, no scans available. I'm considering obtaining a copy, but
haven't yet. Anyway, of interest were these tank cars:

UTLX32473, - sorry no more info on that one

O.V.O.X. 1032, Oriental Oils Company of San Francisco blt 5 1916

IOX 3191, Premier Gasolene built 5 - 21

SARX200, Southern Alberta Refineries Limited, AC & F Co., blt 4-11-19


- I'm wondering if its possible to determine from the number alone what
design these cars were and whether they happen to be close to anything on
the market? I know, I should have noted all the details, such as how many
courses, etc. Next time.

Rob Kirkham


Re: Regarding GA "C"s and "T"s

tim gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

Chris,

According to the January 1943 ORER, these were the sundry reporting
marks of the General American Transportation Company:

Tank Car Division:
BAX Barber Asphalt Corp.
BCOX Baker Castor Oil Co.
CGAX Cumberland Gasoline Corp.
CTTX Canton Tank Car Co.
GATX General American Tank Line
LAPX Linde Air Products Co.
NOLX Northland Oil Co.
QTX Quaker City Tank Line
STCX Standard Transit Co.
SWTX Swift Tank Line

Wood Car Division:
GARX General American Refrigerator Express Co.
LMLX Libby, McNeill & Libby
MAHX Miller and Hart, Inc.
NPKX Nuckolls Packing Co.
SRLX Swift Refrigerator Line

All-Steel Boxcars:
GABX General American Transportation Corp.

Stock Cars:
CDX Cudahy Packing Co.
GASX General American Stock Express
QLSX Quaker City Stock Express
SLSX Swift Live Stock Express

Covered Hopper Cars:
GACX General American Transportation Corp.

Passenger Refrigerators:
GARX General American Refrigerator Express Co.

General American Subsidiaries or Divisions:
GPEX General American Pfaudler Corp. (50% owned by GATX)
Union Refrigerator Transit Co.
URTX Union Refrigerator Transit Co.
TMX Mars Inc.
MRUX Morrell Refrigerator Line
Pennsylvania-Conley Tank Line:
PTX Pennsylvania Tank Line
CYCX Conley Tank Car Co.
TCX The Texas Co.

In addition, GATX owned & operated

CRLX #1501-2000 Cudahy Packing Co.
(There may be others, but I am not going to pore through the entire ORER
to find them.)

From almost its inception, what became General American Transportation
was quite active in acquiring car lines from both private owners and
railroads as well as other businesses. Ralph C. Epstein's GATX: A
HISTORY OF THE GENERAL AMERICAN TRANSPORTATION CORPORATION (1898-1948)
is a good read for those interested in the development of the
Corporation.

Hope this helps, Tim Gilbert


Great Northern Wood Sided Boxcars #46500-46999

Paul Lyons
 

I would appreicate a little help. I am tryng to finish one of the Sunshine GN
wood sheathed 1937 design boxcars with the Superior doors. I can't find a
photo of one of these cars. Can someone point me in the right direction as to
a book or magizine article.. More importantly, can someone tell me if any of
the kit door hardware goes on the Superior doors. It looks like it is all for
the Youngstown door kits. Paul Lyons


Re: Regarding GA "C"s and "T"s

thompson@...
 

I wonder if there is some relationship to the GACX mark that GA has had for
many years? Or alternatively, perhaps the "C" just stands for "C"overed
hoppers which is what they use the mark on now, analogous to the "T" for
"T"ank car on the GATX cars. Or could that "T" stand for Transportation and
the "C" for Car.
The "C" was initially used for covered hoppers, but was later, IIRC, used
for a variety of specially equipped cars.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 http://www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroads and on Western history


Re: GN first steel box cars

Richard Hendrickson
 

To the list;
What were the first GN all steel box cars? I cannot pin these down with my
ORER's I have. Any info on the manufacture, number series, dates and models
I could use would be most appreciated
See the freight car chapter in the Second Edition of Dorin's GN Lines East
book. They were 10'0" IH twelve-panel AAR steel box cars built in the
company shops in 1948 and later. InterMountain has accurate kits for these
cars.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: Regarding GA "C"s and "T"s

Richard Hendrickson
 

Chris Barkan wrote:

I wonder if there is some relationship to the GACX mark that GA has had for
many years? Or alternatively, perhaps the "C" just stands for "C"overed
hoppers which is what they use the mark on now, analogous to the "T" for
"T"ank car on the GATX cars. Or could that "T" stand for Transportation and
the "C" for Car. Sounds like a research project for someone with a bunch of
ORERs.
Doesn't take much research to figure this one out. In the years when GATC
operated only tank cars and reefers, the tank cars wre always GATX and the
reefers GARX. Later, when other car types were added to the compnay fleet,
the stock cars became GASX, the covered hoppers GACX,and the box cars GABX.
All seems pretty predictable to me.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: Tank Car Safety Appliances

CBarkan@...
 

Well this is not really steam era, but per AAR, they became mandatory for new
cars sometime around 1978 or so. Prior to that, I don't know when they
started putting them on but I would surprised if it was much before the
1970s. There was also a retrofit program that required most cars to receive
bottom-fitting program by sometime in the 1990s.

Chris

In a message dated 4/5/02 3:30:14 PM, shawn.beckert@... writes:

<< List,

Trivia question: When did tank car companies
start applying the pieces of angled steel on
both sides of tank car outlet pipes to prevent
their being wiped off in a derailment?

Shawn Beckert
>>


Re: General American Nomenclature (was: Muskogee Refining 704)

thompson@...
 

David Thompson said:
I hope your SP G-50-9 models don't read "General American Tank Car
Corp.," as the prototypes were lettered "General American Car Co."
Yes, on the G-50-9 car side it did say "General American Car Co." but
right under that it was also lettered "GATC." The embossed logo on the
builder shots I have just say "General American," no further words.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 http://www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroads and on Western history


Re: General American Nomenclature (was: Muskogee Refining 704)

James D Thompson <jaydeet@...>
 

If some referred to GATC as "GA Car" it seems irrelevant to me.
I hope your SP G-50-9 models don't read "General American Tank Car
Corp.," as the prototypes were lettered "General American Car Co."

My theory is that General American used the "Car Co." name to
distinguish its general carbuilder business from the tank car operations
after World War I, GATC Corp. became GA Transportation Corp. in 1933,
and GACC was folded back into GAT proper in 1937.

David Thompson, also see the file 'gacc.jpg' in the Files section showing
the builder's logo on the Milwaukee auto cars, or email me for a copy...


Re: General American Nomenclature (was: Muskogee Refining 704)

thompson@...
 

The nickname used by AC&F in the twenties and thereabouts (and even
encouraged in their own ads) was "Car Foundry" but that didn't make it
their actual name. If some referred to GATC as "GA Car" it seems irrelevant
to me.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 http://www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroads and on Western history


Regarding GA "C"s and "T"s

CBarkan@...
 

I wonder if there is some relationship to the GACX mark that GA has had for
many years? Or alternatively, perhaps the "C" just stands for "C"overed
hoppers which is what they use the mark on now, analogous to the "T" for
"T"ank car on the GATX cars. Or could that "T" stand for Transportation and
the "C" for Car. Sounds like a research project for someone with a bunch of
ORERs.

C

In a message dated 4/5/02 8:24:09 PM, johncb@u.washington.edu writes:

<< > The 1933 date is from GATC's official corporate history. And AFAIK
there never was anything officially named the General American Car
Co., regardless of whether the C&O mechanical department chose to
call it that.

Richard H. Hendrickson
I, too, have seen references to a "General American Car Co."
Might this have been the unofficial name of GATC's manufacturing
division or operations? John Boykin
>>


Re: Muskogee Refining 704

Dave & Libby Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

Garth, both books were for inverstors. I'm fairly sure that if Chicago Steel
Car Co. was privately owned and had not issued debt they would not have
appeared in either book, no matter how prominent they might have been. For
instance, Hewlett Packard does not appear in the 1950's editions of Moody's --
I'd guess not before they went public in 1959 -- tho the company had formed in
1939.

Dave Nelson

-----Original Message-----
From: Garth G. Groff [mailto:ggg9y@...]
I just did a check of several volumes of MOODY'S INDUSTRIALS and
POORS for the 1920s and 1930s in our
library. I did not find Chicago Steel Car Co. listed at all, even
the dropped corporations pages. Most
curious. Even if they were trading under a different name or were a
subsidiary of somebody else, they
should have been listed somewhere.


Climax Radial Roof Details - 2nd try

ian clasper
 

Ok Ted, I will re-phrase my question (no offence taken) !

I am puzzled about one of the details of the roof. The detail appears to
bolt heads or some other form of fastener protruding from the "Ridge Caps"
next to the running boards and near to the edge of the roof.

I presume that these are the fasteners to fasten the ridge caps to the
carlines, sandwiching the roof panels. The images I have do not show
sufficient detail to truly determine what they are and hence what to model.

Ian Clasper

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ted Culotta" <ted_culotta@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2002 8:50 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Climax Radial Roof Details


I present this not to pick nits, but to make sure that
we perpetuate the right terminology. I believe that
carlines (one word in the CBC) were inside the car and
what Ian is referring to are ridge caps.

The carline definition is in the glossary page on the
web site.
http://www.steamfreightcars.com/prototype/glossary/glossarymain.html

I may be able to finish the Glossary in the near
future as I am scheduled for a trip to China, which
should provide ample time to type in definitions.

Regards,
Ted


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Re: Climax Radial Roof Details

Ted Culotta <ted_culotta@...>
 

I present this not to pick nits, but to make sure that
we perpetuate the right terminology. I believe that
carlines (one word in the CBC) were inside the car and
what Ian is referring to are ridge caps.

The carline definition is in the glossary page on the
web site.
http://www.steamfreightcars.com/prototype/glossary/glossarymain.html

I may be able to finish the Glossary in the near
future as I am scheduled for a trip to China, which
should provide ample time to type in definitions.

Regards,
Ted

--- ian clasper <ianclasper@...> wrote:
Hi Guys

I am building a Climax Radial Roof, for my USRA SS
N&W rebuild.

I am puzzled about one of the details of the roof.
The detail appears to
bolt heads or some other form of fastener protruding
from the "Car Lines"
next to the running boards and near to the edge of
the roof.

What are these details and how do I model them ?

Thanks

Ian Clasper


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