Date   
Re: Wine Cars, where Did They Go

thompson@...
 

Jace Kahn writes:
Even as I write, I am restoring a Thomas six-dome wine car I picked up at
the Chicago O scale show last month, although I am not really clear what I
will do with it when I've finished, since I've never seen any photos of
anything like it on short lines (even the B&H).
The model is a quite accurate reproduction of a prototype.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 http://www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroads and on Western history

Re: GN first steel box cars

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

Mike Redden wrote

The November and December 2001 issues of Mainline Modeler had
articles, drawings and photos about the 12-panel GN bocars.
Also Mainline Modeler, September 1985.


Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...> *** NEW EMAIL ADDRESS ***
Sterling, Massachusetts

Wine Cars, where Did They Go

Justin Kahn <jacekahn@...>
 

I'm pretty sure I've seen photos of insulated boxcars being loaded with cases of wine on the B&H.
Jace Kahn

assuming wine shipped in tank
cars was to be rebottled, doesn't it stand then that a substantial amount
of
wine shiped by rail, having already been bottled, would have been in
other
cars?
Some bulk wine was shipped in barrels in refrigerator cars; in Thompson et.
al.'s PFE reefer book there's a fine W. C. Whittaker shot of some beefy
longshoremen rolling a barrel of wine up a ramp into a PFE R-50-1 class
reefer (the reefers weren't iced, of course, just used as insulated box
cars). Much bottled wine in cases was also shipped in reefers (or, in
later years, RBLs) and there are numerous photos of such cars at winery
loading docks in the California wine country.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520




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Re: Wine Cars, where Did They Go

Justin Kahn <jacekahn@...>
 

Dear Chuck
I don't know that any of the several wineries in Hammondsport (Great Western, Taylor, and I think perhaps smaller ones) ever actually owned any tankcars, although I suppose the OER would give a definite answer; probably the grain alcohol or low-grade mix spirits would have been transported in UTLX/GATX/SHPX cars and such.
Even as I write, I am restoring a Thomas six-dome wine car I picked up at the Chicago O scale show last month, although I am not really clear what I will do with it when I've finished, since I've never seen any photos of anything like it on short lines (even the B&H).
Jace Kahn

I don't ever recall any tank cars that were clearly lettered for wine
companies on the Bath & Hammondsport. But in the 70s they received many cars
of "neutral spirits"
that were delivered to large wineries. My brother (the wine expertin the
family and chemical engineer) tells me that this was bascally pur alcohol
that the wine companies added to the local product to get the alcohol
percentage up to the desired level.The cars were modern, welded stub sill
type with compartments.

Remember seeing the multi compartment (6,8?) riveted wine tank cars at a
local plant on the D&H in northeastern PA in the '40s where it was bottled.
Think it was sold under the name "Virginia Dare" and was really cheap stuff.

Chuck Y
Boulder CO



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Re: OT Defense of "The Rest of the West Coast"...Sorry Mike!

thompson@...
 

Kevin Slark writes:
Being a native of San Diego, I do not understand the meaning of "The
City." I presume you are speaking of Old Town San Diego...
Kevin, there was a reason it's called "Town."

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 http://www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroads and on Western history

Re: Great Northern Wood Sided Boxcars #46500-46999

Richard Hendrickson
 

--- cobrapsl@... wrote:
Thanks Ted, but I think Richard Hendrickson has come
to the rescue. He is going to email me a couple of
builder photos of the cars with Superior doors.
Happy to share if your interested. Paul
Paul:

I'd love to see them if you can forard them on to me.
Ted, I'll post them to you as well as to Paul.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520

Re: Wine Cars, where Did They Go

thompson@...
 

Dave Nelson asked:
An extra thought to follow my earlier comments: assuming wine shipped in tank
cars was to be rebottled, doesn't it stand then that a substantial amount of
wine shiped by rail, having already been bottled, would have been in other
cars?
Substantial amounts were shipped in PFE reefers, both barrels and cases.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 http://www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroads and on Western history

Re: Wine Cars, where Did They Go

thompson@...
 

Pat Duffin asked:
Where might one encounter other winery cars? I model 1952 in Texas and
am interested in wine shipments in the Southwest. I have a six dome GATX
tank and would like to find a prototype that made its way to Texas.
I don't know for sure that wine had been introduced to Texas by 1952
<grin>, but if so, it would likely have been bulk wine. The key might have
been whether there was a distributor packaging same, either on-line in
Texas or somewhere beyond so that wine cars would have passed through.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 http://www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroads and on Western history

Re: Great Northern Wood Sided Boxcars #46500-46999

Ted Culotta <ted_culotta@...>
 

--- cobrapsl@... wrote:
Thanks Ted, but I think Richard Hendrickson has come
to the rescue. He is going to email me a couple of
builder photos of the cars with Superior doors.
Happy to share if your interested. Paul
Paul:

I'd love to see them if you can forard them on to me.

I actually remembered that I might have the bill of
materials for these cars. If I do, I will send the
info on to you.

Thank you.

Regards,
Ted

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Re: Tank Car Safety Appliances

Shawn Beckert
 

Chris Barkan wrote:

Well, this is not really steam era, but per AAR,
they became mandatory for new cars sometime
around 1978 or so. Prior to that, I don't know
when they started putting them on but I would be
surprised if it was much before the 1970's. There
was also a retrofit program that required most
cars to receive bottom-fitting program sometime
in the 1990's.
Chris,

Thanks for your reply, and the subsequent posting
with the AAR Tank Car Committee data. I didn't *think*
tank cars received this equipment before the 1960's,
but wasn't really sure of this. At first I was a bit
surprised that nobody thought of this protective device
earlier, then it hit me: Before the 1960's most tank
cars had center sills, which would of course offer some
measure of protection to the commodity and steam heating
pipes in the event of a derailment. I haven't searched
out these details yet in any of my tank car pictures, but
I'll guess that this plumbing didn't hang down too far, if
at all, beyond the center sill on most cars.

Shawn Beckert

Re: Great Northern Wood Sided Boxcars #46500-46999

Paul Lyons
 

Thanks Ted, but I think Richard Hendrickson has come to the rescue. He is going to email me a couple of builder photos of the cars with Superior doors. Happy to share if your interested. Paul

Duct tape & Irony (DT&I)

David Soderblom
 

Re: the build-it-with-duct-tape group. Finally, one we've needed! But
in the spirit of e-groups you need to specialize even more, to say just
boxcars. And can we use cable ties and caulk, those other essentials of
the well-equipped shop?

Dave Soderblom
Baltimore MD

Re: Wine Car

Jeff English
 

"Gene Deimling" <endeimling@...> wrote:

I had been told by knowledgeable rail historians that much of the New York
state wine producers added quite a bit of California grape/wine
concentrate to their locally produced product. At one time, Taylor's Wine
in Bath, New York used to get quite a few tank cars of grape/wine
concentrate. I think that the current lay in New York requires that to be
labeled a New York wine it must contain at least 50% of the local product.
I would imagine that the Lackawanna and the Erie delivered a lot of the
wine to the Bath and Hammondsport in Bath.
My fuzzy memory is that the minimum % to claim "NY"wine is
way less than 50%; something makes me want to say it's around
15-20%. There is a definite market divide between "corporate" NY
wineries (Taylor, Wagner, etc.) and the "boutique" wineries, which
tend to be 100% NY content, if not estate bottled. Since the latter
outfits are so small, there's no economic possibility of them using
rail service. AFAIK, the "corporates" are also no longer using rail
at all, and the Bath & Hammondsport is moribund.
FWIW, when the Taylor family sold out its ownership of the
company to Coca-Cola, dissenter Walter S. #$&^@* continued
making wine on land he retained, but a federal court has barred him
from using the name "Taylor" anywhere on his labels or
promotional material. This happened in the 70s or early 80s and,
of course, created a groundswell of sales for his Bully Hill label,
which remains quite popular in this neck of the woods at least.
Anyway, if you visit the Bully Hill Vineyards, they make quite a
point about "no tank car wine", and when I last visited in the early
80s there was a decrepit tank car on display at the premises to
illustrate the point. I don't recall anything about the car's heritage
and have no pictures. I have no idea if it is still there.

---------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff English Troy, New York
Proto:64 Classic Era Railroad Modeling
englij@...

| R U T L A N D R A I L R O A D |
Route of the Whippet
---------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Wine Cars, where Did They Go

Jeff English
 

<billd@...> wrote:

... The City (San
Franciso for the Un-Caen)
to which Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...> responded:

BTW, any au courant Californian can tell you that, though
there are other cities on the west coast, there is only one City, and
that's San Francisco. Some folks from ElLay and other metropoli find this
pretentious and annoying, but what do they know?
Well, as lovely as Baghdad by the Bay may be, there is only
one location in North America that qualifies for the singular
appellation "The City", and it ain't on the left coast.

---------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff English Troy, New York
Proto:64 Classic Era Railroad Modeling
englij@...

| R U T L A N D R A I L R O A D |
Route of the Whippet
---------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Great Northern Wood Sided Boxcars #46500-46999

Ted Culotta <ted_culotta@...>
 

Paul:

Since I haven't seen the definitive answer yet, I
would suggest contacting the Minnesota Historical
Society. They have a large number of GN bills of
materials. They may have the ones for this group of
cars. If they have it, they will make photocopies.

Regards,
Ted

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Re: Wine Cars, where Did They Go

raildata@...
 

I don't ever recall any tank cars that were clearly lettered for wine
companies on the Bath & Hammondsport. But in the 70s they received many cars
of "neutral spirits"
that were delivered to large wineries. My brother (the wine expertin the
family and chemical engineer) tells me that this was bascally pur alcohol
that the wine companies added to the local product to get the alcohol
percentage up to the desired level.The cars were modern, welded stub sill
type with compartments.

Remember seeing the multi compartment (6,8?) riveted wine tank cars at a
local plant on the D&H in northeastern PA in the '40s where it was bottled.
Think it was sold under the name "Virginia Dare" and was really cheap stuff.

Chuck Y
Boulder CO

Re: Wine Cars, where Did They Go

billd@...
 

Precisely! And I've been in some of those caves (Napa is one of my haunts when I'm up there...) and know all about them. But not all the wineries have them (such as Beaulieu) so they utilized the tender mercies of the SP. And it was a longer haul (if entirely by rail) than most would think (over to the east bay, down to Dumbarton or San Jose (yes, I know the way, Dionne!)and then up the peninsula, but on second thought, it was more likely shipped over the NWP to Sausalito and over the ferry to The City. Anyone out there know for sure???

Bill Daniels


On Sun, 7 Apr 2002 21:48:32 -0700
Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...> wrote:
Richard and all,

There is a story that goes along with that photo...seems
that summers up in Napa Valley are a bit on the warm side,
which is not condusive to proper aging. The solution was
to ship the barrels via refrigerator cars to The City (San
Franciso for the Un-Caen) for storage during the
summer...which is what is going on in this photo.
Some wineries, of course, had (and still have) underground caves for
storage and aging (e.g., Beringer Bros., Buena Vista, Schramsburg). But
shipping wine to The City to keep it cool certainly seems plausible in the
days when labor was cheap. I'm sure the Southern Pacific thought it was a
fine idea. BTW, any au courant Californian can tell you that, though there
are other cities on the west coast, there is only one City, and that's San
Francisco. Some folks from ElLay and other metropoli find this pretentious
and annoying, but what do they know?

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520



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Santa Fe BX-57 refurbishments (Kadee Model)

Larry Boerio
 

I just had an interesting experience buying one of what I am told is the
newer run of the Kadee PS1 Box Cars. I bought a Santa Fe BX57 #31698. The
prototype, manufactured in 1950 has the "Ship and Travel" slogan on it,
with "The Grand Canyon Line" train slogan on the opposite side, as does
the model.

I was in a rush when I bought it, as the store was closing so I didn't
check the car markings to see if it was within my era (1946-1956). I
ASSUMED it was an "as built" model just like other Kadee PS1 Box Cars I
had previously purchased (e.g. Santa Fe BX57 with the Chief slogan on it,
and a couple of other "foreign" road's PS1s)

After I got it home I realized it had a date mark of "D0 9-73" below the
reporting remarks ( part of the AAR stenciling standards markings). This
date marking is located to the right of the LT WT. The model accurately
represents the lighter shade of paint around the "DO 9-73" marking which
indicates a re-stencil over the original "New 6-50". This would indicate
that the car had some sort of work done on it in Dodge City, Kansas in
September 1973. IF the car is accurately modeled based on the markings,
then it was obviously outside of my era. Now the question was, is the car
modeled accurately for 1973 or not?. (BX57 is a tricky class because of
the location of the train slogans as indicated below). If figured if I
determined that the model is accurate for 1973 then the question was, what
would I have to do to make it accurate for my era?

So the first thing I noticed and researched was the mineral brown roof on
the model which I believe indicates that the prototype was epainted.
Richard Hendrickson's "Painting and Lettering" guide indicates that steel
or metal sheathed roofs (like mine) on box cars between 1931 and 1951 had
black anti-slip roofs. The Guide also indicates that from 1951-1980 the
steel or metal sheathed roofs were anti-slip mineral brown on standar box
cars for ATSF. I am ASSUMING that these notes in the Guide are applicable
to repaint jobs as well as to the new deliveries during the specified time
period. Richard, is this correct?

If I am correct on the roof color situation, the prototype was repainted
before the 9-73 date on it's side (hopefully so). However, to determine if
I can use it for my era I need to know if it was repainted within my era,
or not. Can anyone help? Is there a reference that shows when cars (or
classes of cars got re-painted)?

The reason I need to know if it was repainted in my era is that at first I
thought all I would have to do to make this car accurate for my era would
be to paint the roof black and change the date to "New 6-50" along with
changing the car weights to their original figures. I figured then it
would then be accurate for 6-50. Wrong!

Since the model represents a re-painted version of BX57 class, it has the
Train slogan and Ship and Travel slogan on the wrong side of the car for
an AS DELIVERED BX57 car. I have previously read that the the slogan
locations were swapped to opposite sides of the BX57 cars when they were
re-painted because the class was delivered opposite of standard practice
which was to have the Train slogan on the left side and the Ship and
Travel Slogan on the right side. So when when they were re-painted this
anomaly was corrected by swapping sides for the slogans. The model is
accurate in this regard. The prototype for my exact car model is shown on
page 30 of "Santa Fe Freight in Color...the Series" by Steve Priest and
Tom Chenoweth.

Since the model accurately represents the slogans on their proper sides
for a repainted BX57, and since I'm not willing to repaint the sides to
change the slogan locations to represent an as delivered (6-50) car, this
means that my original idea for a roof color change and markings change to
create an as delivered status would not be accurate because the slogans
would be on the wrong side for an as delivered car. So the only way I can
use this model is if it if in fact, it was re-painted during my era. Can
anyone help me determine this? Are there references? Otherwise the model
goes back to the store.

After all of this I decided to look at my at my Kadee PS1 BX57 class car
which I purchased a year or so ago to make sure it was accurate. It has
"The Route of the Chief" on it. It shows a date of "New 6-50". It has a
black roof. All of this is proper for this class as delivered, and the
slogans are on their proper sides for BX57 class as delivered. They are
opposite of standard practice as they have the train slogan on the right
side.

While I was relieved and pleased to see that Kadee had actually done the
proper research to get the tricky changes done accurately for their
models: i.e a) an as delivered Chief slogan BX57), and b) a repainted
Grand Canyon slogan BX57; nevertheless I was reminded of a basic rule I
had forgotten when I bought the Grand Canyon Car. "You've got to read the
markings and compare the features of the car to the markings and your
era". I learned that even if the other model a manufacturer had made are
"as delivered" status, you can't just assume another car in their line
will be "as delivered" as well. (NOTE: I have since discovered that there
are, in fact, other Kadee PS1's out there that contain car dates other
than "New".

So, can anyone tell me if there is a reference to determine when my BX57
was repainted, so maybe I can save a long trip back to the hobby shop?

Thanks for your help.



=====
Regards,

Larry Boerio
Buena Park, CA
"May Steam and First Generation Diesel live Forever!"
Member: Fullerton Railway Plaza Assoc., Orange Empire Railway Mus., CA State
Railroad Mus., National Railway Historical Soc., National Model Railroad Assoc., Santa Fe Railway Histoical and Modeling Society, Westerners-LA, L.A. Conservancy, Autry Mus. of Western Heritage

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OT Defense of "The Rest of the West Coast"...Sorry Mike!

Kevin Slark <MoffatRoad@...>
 

Richard,
Being a native of San Diego, I do not understand the meaning of "The City." I presume you are speaking of Old Town San Diego, and not some cold, foggy, rainy local 600 miles to the north. Also, wine producing is not a real industry. Sure, it may be pretty, but it doesn't keep the country on its two feet (pun intended) like the Naval Shipyards of San Diego. On the rail side, there's nothing as exciting nor beautiful as the AT&SF Surf Line and the SD&AE's canyons and tunnels! A friendly rebuttal from a person familiar with the South of California. I truly miss it.
Kevin Slark
Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...> wrote: >Richard and all,

There is a story that goes along with that photo...seems
that summers up in Napa Valley are a bit on the warm side,
which is not condusive to proper aging. The solution was
to ship the barrels via refrigerator cars to The City (San
Franciso for the Un-Caen) for storage during the
summer...which is what is going on in this photo.
Some wineries, of course, had (and still have) underground caves for
storage and aging (e.g., Beringer Bros., Buena Vista, Schramsburg). But
shipping wine to The City to keep it cool certainly seems plausible in the
days when labor was cheap. I'm sure the Southern Pacific thought it was a
fine idea. BTW, any au courant Californian can tell you that, though there
are other cities on the west coast, there is only one City, and that's San
Francisco. Some folks from ElLay and other metropoli find this pretentious
and annoying, but what do they know?

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520



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Re: Wine Cars, where Did They Go

Richard Hendrickson
 

Richard and all,

There is a story that goes along with that photo...seems
that summers up in Napa Valley are a bit on the warm side,
which is not condusive to proper aging. The solution was
to ship the barrels via refrigerator cars to The City (San
Franciso for the Un-Caen) for storage during the
summer...which is what is going on in this photo.
Some wineries, of course, had (and still have) underground caves for
storage and aging (e.g., Beringer Bros., Buena Vista, Schramsburg). But
shipping wine to The City to keep it cool certainly seems plausible in the
days when labor was cheap. I'm sure the Southern Pacific thought it was a
fine idea. BTW, any au courant Californian can tell you that, though there
are other cities on the west coast, there is only one City, and that's San
Francisco. Some folks from ElLay and other metropoli find this pretentious
and annoying, but what do they know?

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520