Date   

Re: AC&F type 19 tank cars?

Bruce Smith
 

On Apr 4, 2008, at 6:17 AM, Bruce Smith wrote:

Maybe I'm being forgetful, but was there an AC&F tank car type
intermediate between the type 17 and the type 21? (e.g. a "type 19")
<snip>
It would appear that perhaps a Tichy underframe and a P2K type 21 3
course tank might be pretty durn close..

On Apr 4, 2008, at 11:43 AM, Richard Hendrickson wrote:
<snip>
Helpful
though the type designations are, AC&F's use of them wasn't always
consistent and is occasionally puzzling.

As for modeling the interim cars by combining a Tichy underframe and
P2K tank, the Tichy underframe would have to be shortened to fit the
tank properly, certainly possible but not exactly a simple matter.

Richard Hendrickson
Richard,

Thanks! I agree about the need to slightly shorten the Tichy underframe - I compared the two at lunch and the tank is just a bit shorter. It might make a fun project and it is something to do with my surplus Tichy underframe from my USG-A conversion, now that Ted has given us the kitbash in a box for the NATX cars <G>.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
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B&LE triple offset hoppers

Dean Payne
 

I've been thinking about putting a B&LE car on my layout, and
remember reading that the old Ulrich triple hopper kit was based on
the B&LE prototype. However, the new Accurail kit is nicer, from
what I hear. It isn't available lettered for the B&LE (but neither
was the Ulrich, AFAIK).

A little research on Wikipedia shows that the B&LE hoppers were "rust-
colored", to hide any obvious stains from the ore that they carried,
since the Bessemer was an iron ore road. I'm not positive this
refered to the triples, but maybe to later ore hoppers.

Since I model the late 30's, the B&LE hoppers were some of the only
triples that I can justify. I've heard of build dates of 1936-37 for
some, and I saw a 1931 build date (unless I mistook the 7 as a 1,
which is possible). These were heavily-built cars. A very odd
characteristic of these cars are the trucks, 90-ton versions
with "wings" on the outside that appear to be for outside-hung brake
shoes! These have not been offered anywhere in HO that I am aware
of, and would be hard to do, because most decent trucks are
engineering plastic, notoriously hard to glue to. Were these EXTRA
brake shoes, or were the heavy-duty trucks so massive that the brakes
had to be moved outside? I can't think of any other cars in the
timeframe of this list that had outside-hung brakes!

The MOST puzzling thing is that they had offset triples in the first
place, if these indeed hauled iron ore. I've heard that standard
offset triples would be about half-full of iron ore before reaching
capacity, and I don't think that even the B&LE's stout triples could
be loaded enough to justify a triple, and if so, why the offset sides
instead of the simpler ribbed sides? Most ore hoppers I've seen are
shorties, not even standard-size twins. I wondered if they somehow
found a way (post-WWII) to process the ore at the mine in such a way
that made it purer and denser. That would be the one explanation I
can think of for a switch from triples to shorties, but that is pure
speculation.

Dean Payne


Re: AC&F type 19 tank cars?

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Apr 4, 2008, at 6:17 AM, Bruce Smith wrote:

Maybe I'm being forgetful, but was there an AC&F tank car type
intermediate between the type 17 and the type 21? (e.g. a "type 19")
In perusing Ed's Kaminski's AC&F tank car book for the type 11
project, I noticed photos of several cars that intrigued me. These
have 3 course (horizontal) tanks, domes with safety valves on top,
and what appear to be frames with the channel side sills facing
inward. These cars were built in 1919 and 1920. Specifically, I am
looking at COMX 661 (p95), IMRX 875 and WHOX 1191 ( both p97).

It would appear that perhaps a Tichy underframe and a P2K type 21 3
course tank might be pretty durn close...












Bruce, there's no question that AC&F built some cars ca. 1919 that
seem to have combined the Type 17 underframe with the later tank
design, which had a larger dome and safeties on top of the dome
instead of on a side-mounted elbow. What AC&F called them, however,
has never been established, AFAIK. For that matter, a bunch of cars
were delivered in 1920 (see Kaminski pp. 99-101) which appear to have
been built to the Type 21 design and specifications but which, for
obvious reasons, couldn't have been designated Type 21s. Helpful
though the type designations are, AC&F's use of them wasn't always
consistent and is occasionally puzzling.

As for modeling the interim cars by combining a Tichy underframe and
P2K tank, the Tichy underframe would have to be shortened to fit the
tank properly, certainly possible but not exactly a simple matter.

Richard Hendrickson


AC&F type 19 tank cars?

Bruce Smith
 

Folks,

Maybe I'm being forgetful, but was there an AC&F tank car type
intermediate between the type 17 and the type 21? (e.g. a "type 19")
In perusing Ed's Kaminski's AC&F tank car book for the type 11
project, I noticed photos of several cars that intrigued me. These
have 3 course (horizontal) tanks, domes with safety valves on top,
and what appear to be frames with the channel side sills facing
inward. These cars were built in 1919 and 1920. Specifically, I am
looking at COMX 661 (p95), IMRX 875 and WHOX 1191 ( both p97).

It would appear that perhaps a Tichy underframe and a P2K type 21 3
course tank might be pretty durn close...

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0


CMO 1658-1844 rebuilds

joe binish <joebinish@...>
 

Folks,
I am up to my waist in the Sunshine CMO rebuild boxcar. Coupla questions:

When were the CMO cars rebuilt(again) with power brakes and metal runboards/walkways? And painted black ends, yellow/green sides? I model 1953, and if they were painted in this scheme in say 55, I have a problem. What color are the roof in this scheme? Photos I have seen it looks yeller.

Tanks in Advance,
Joe Binish


Date Change for Annual Western Prototype Modelers Meet (WPM)

dh30973 <76523.1060@...>
 

April 3, 2008
Date Change for Annual Western Prototype Modelers Meet (WPM)

The Western Prototype Modelers Meet (WPM) held each year in La Habra,
CA. has been forced to change the previously announced date due to a
scheduling conflict with the facility. WPM has previously been held
on Columbus Day weekend, the second weekend of October. This year the
meet will be held in the same location, but on a different date. The
new meet date is Saturday September 6, 2008. The meet will continue
to be held at the La Habra Community Center, La Habra, Orange County,
California.

WPM features approximately 6000 square feet of display area for
models, operating N & HO scale Free-Mo layouts and a slate of clinics
and manufacturers. Over 170 modelers attended WPM 2007, and displayed
over 500 models. This year's meet will continue the fine tradition
established in previous years. We hope you can join us.

For information on WPM and a photographic overview of previous year's
events, go to:
http://www.westernprototypemodelers.org

Schedule and clinician information is a work in progress at this
time. The program should be finalized by mid-summer, and updated
information will be available on the WPM website at that time.

David Hussey
WPM Committee Member


PRRPro TM8/AC&F Type 11 Project

Bruce Smith
 

Folks,

The PRR Project Group (PRRPro) has begun its next project, the PRR TM8
tank car. These cars were AC&F Type 11 tank cars and so this project will
encompass not only the PRR cars, but all Type 11s. Please feel free to
join us in building these cars. Modelers in all scales are welcome.
PRRPro is not a "follow the leader" group, but rather a co-op where
everyone can contribute and ask questions as we build the model. To find
us in Yahoo Groups, simply go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRRPro/

Regards
Bruce

Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


Re: Why 3 domes on Jones & Laughlin coal tar tank cars?

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Larry Kline wrote:
I posted a closeup of the right hand dome from the photo in the Cycs. Its in the files section. I have a high res tiff of the photo from the Pitt Archives. You can see the inlet fitting in the photo.
Thanks for the informative photo, Larry. Given what nasty stuff coal tar is, even if in that day they hadn't yet proven it was carcinogenic, I can well understand that it wasn't loaded by pouring it into a manway, but was piped through a fitting--just as anything dangerous is still handled today.
For cleaning a single-compartment car, of course, only the one manway was needed.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Dimensional Data on Chlorine Tank Cars

Rod Miller
 

Note: this thread is about cars with several tanks placed
transversely on the deck of what appears to be a modified
flat car.

After finding a photo of PSMX 1016 in Vol. 12 of Gregg's
Cyclopedia reprints, I saw that the dimensional data on
the prototype was placed on the side of the center sill
or some other structural member (couldn't tell from the
photo) that runs lengthwise below the side sill of the
car.

I am still looking for information on what kind and color
of protective cover if any was placed over the connection
area of the tank if keeping it clean during transit was
required.

Thanks

Rod

Rod Miller wrote:

Three photos of O scale chlorine tank cars have been uploaded
to Rod Miller's Pics in the files section.
Two of the cars appear to have an older style lettering with
no dimensional data, while the third (ACFX 404) appears to
have a newer, possibly post-steam era (shudder) lettering.
I think the proper question is: is there a date after which
dimensional data was required for all freight cars that were
interchanged (which may date the lettering on two of the cars)?
The blue end caps on the tanks on AFCFX 404
ostensibly cover the connections
into the tanks and are a nice touch. I presume the covers are
correct and wonder if the color blue is significant.
Recalling the very interesting discussion we had here about
chlorine tank cars, I don't think either of the above items
was addressed.
Thanks for your help.
Rod


Re: Why 3 domes on Jones & Laughlin coal tar tank cars?

Larry Kline
 

Bruce and group,

Here are the two sentences that relate to
the number of domes domes and loading:

*The car contains 3 domes in order to facilitate its
loading. In addition to the regular inside valves
for uploading, two outside outlets with valves
attached are also provided.*

I posted a closeup of the right hand dome from the
photo in the Cycs. Its in the files section. I have
a high res tiff of the photo from the Pitt Archives.
You can see the inlet fitting in the photo.

Larry

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Smith <smithbf@...> wrote:


On Apr 2, 2008, at 8:40 AM, Larry Kline wrote:
These cars were described in a short article in
Railway Age, 6-22-26, p 1376. The article is
available in the files section of the Yahoo
STEEL group:
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/STEEL/files/

The article says that the car has 3 domes to
facilitate its loading and that it will be
used between the J&L Aliquippa and Pittsburgh
plants.

Larry Kline
Pittsburgh, PA
Larry,

I think it might be a bit tough to load through those outer two
domes... they don't have hatches! <G>

Regards
Bruce


Re: Why 3 domes on Jones & Laughlin coal tar tank cars?

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Robert Federle wrote:
Outer domes, no hatches. If so, they were probably to facilitate expansion of the product in the car. Air will compress upon the expansion and reduce the likelihood of rupture of the tank.
Good point. Not having to allow (as much) for air rushing out as the load rushes in, could indeed facilitate loading.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Why 3 domes on Jones & Laughlin coal tar tank cars?

rfederle@...
 

Outer domes, no hatches. If so, they were probably to facilitate expansion of the product in the car. Air will compress upon the expansion and reduce the likelihood of rupture of the tank.

Robert Federle
---- Bruce Smith <smithbf@auburn.edu> wrote:


On Apr 2, 2008, at 8:40 AM, Larry Kline wrote:
These cars were described in a short article in
Railway Age, 6-22-26, p 1376. The article is
available in the files section of the Yahoo
STEEL group:
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/STEEL/files/

The article says that the car has 3 domes to
facilitate its loading and that it will be
used between the J&L Aliquippa and Pittsburgh
plants.

Larry Kline
Pittsburgh, PA
Larry,

I think it might be a bit tough to load through those outer two
domes... they don't have hatches! <G>

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0


Re: Why 3 domes on Jones & Laughlin coal tar tank cars?

Bruce Smith
 

On Apr 2, 2008, at 8:40 AM, Larry Kline wrote:
These cars were described in a short article in
Railway Age, 6-22-26, p 1376. The article is
available in the files section of the Yahoo
STEEL group:
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/STEEL/files/

The article says that the car has 3 domes to
facilitate its loading and that it will be
used between the J&L Aliquippa and Pittsburgh
plants.

Larry Kline
Pittsburgh, PA
Larry,

I think it might be a bit tough to load through those outer two domes... they don't have hatches! <G>

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0


Re: Why 3 domes on Jones & Laughlin coal tar tank cars?

Larry Kline
 

These cars were described in a short article in
Railway Age, 6-22-26, p 1376. The article is
available in the files section of the Yahoo
STEEL group:
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/STEEL/files/

The article says that the car has 3 domes to
facilitate its loading and that it will be
used between the J&L Aliquippa and Pittsburgh
plants.

Larry Kline
Pittsburgh, PA

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Smith <smithbf@...> wrote:

On Mar 31, 2008, at 11:20 PM, Mark Pierce wrote:
Why the three domes on the 20K-gallon Jones & Laughlin tank cars? To
me, that presumes three separate compartments. Why bother when
carrying a single, homogeneous product such as coal tar? Where am I
going wrong? (Does coal tar belch like me?)

Mark Pierce
Mark,

Close observation of these J&L cars indicates that only the center
dome had a manway, unlike the brass model, and the resin model that,
ahem, makes the same mistakes ;^) This would indicate a single
compartment. In addition, the riveting pattern indicates that these
are only a single compartment. So, then why 3 domes? Now I'm
speculating, but it would seem to me that given the volume, and the
required expansion space, 3 domes might have been required to provide
the expansion space within the clearance diagram. Another example of
this, oft discussed on this list, are the 2 dome, single tank car
produced for use in Europe during WWII.

Regards
Bruce


Re: Santa Fe Pipe Train/nice link!

William Keene <wakeene@...>
 

Spen,

Got to laugh myself. But there might be some truth to the date.

There are recorded statements from early explorers that in thiose
early days of what is now the LA Basin, it had a good sized population
of various American Indian tribes. And their source of fuel was wood.
It is said that the smoke for cooking fires hung heavily in the air.

While I am not quite as old as dirt, I am a close second. At least
that is how I feel on some days. I did not get into southern
California in 1070. Wish I had. But my parents did not want to venture
west at that time. My first visit was in 1948. Moved to paradise in
1985. I remember visits through LAX in 1969 and the air was really
bad. I have to repeat that it is much better now. Unfortunately, the
steam era freight cars are not around to enjoy it. Well... there are
those in the Orange Empire Railroad Museum and others.

One old dude... you bet!

-- Bill Keene
Irvine, CA

On Apr 1, 2008, at 2:45 PM, Spen Kellogg wrote:

William Keene wrote:
The mountains are available for viewing daily, weather permitting,
of
course. The air quality in these parts has improved considerably.
Still not the greatest, but many times better than it was it the
1070s.
Whoa, Bill. You are one old dude! <VBG>

Regards, Spen Kellogg


Re: Dupont tank car

jwdobs
 

Ed,

Thanks for the info. I think the paint scheme of DUPX 1599 on p. 122
of Kaminski's ACF Tank Car book is gray with black underframe, but
I'm thrilled to hear that some 11k gallon pressurized cars also wore
this scheme.

I seem to recall the yellow and green scheme was unique to the gas
additives cars, which I've been told were of 6-7k gallon capacity
due to the density of the additives.

If someone has evidence of an 11k gallon pressurized tankcar in
Dupont yellow & green, please chime in.

Regards,

Jeff Dobslaw


--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Ed Hawkins <hawk0621@...> wrote:


On Mar 31, 2008, at 10:12 AM, jwdobs wrote:

Does anyone know if this paint scheme ever appear on 11,000 gal
pressurized tank cars? I seen many photos of this paint scheme on
smaller ~6,000 gallon cars.
Jeff,
I can provide some information on tank cars built by AC&F. Over the
years from the early 1930s to late 1940s there were a number of
11,000-gallon pressurized tank cars built with DUPX reporting
marks.
There were a number of different configurations with different car
lengths and tank diameters. Many of these were for transporting
metallic sodium. Other cars transported anhydrous ammonia or
fertilizer
ammonia solution.

Other cars owned by Shippers' Car Line were leased to DuPont. One
series for transporting propane that more or less matches the Atlas
model includes SHPX 3815-3824, 10 cars built 3-48 having DuPont
markings (part of AC&F lot 3171). If you have the Kaminski tank car
book, the SHPX 3815-3824 cars were painted in the same manner as
DUPX
1599 shown on page 122 (a different type of car, but the same paint
scheme). Hope this helps.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Santa Fe Pipe Train/nice link!

Spen Kellogg <spenkell@...>
 

William Keene wrote:
The mountains are available for viewing daily, weather permitting, of course. The air quality in these parts has improved considerably. Still not the greatest, but many times better than it was it the 1070s.
Whoa, Bill. You are one old dude! <VBG>

Regards, Spen Kellogg


Re: instructions

water.kresse@...
 

SGL,

Thanks so much. Great timing! Gives us a good feeling as to the progress from in the mid to late-teens when they would disassemble Model Ts for better packing density in box cars.

What about us all-era (1880s thru 1960s) prototype operations interest folks?

Good stuff!

Al Kresse

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Schuyler Larrabee" <schuyler.larrabee@verizon.net>
http://www.jon-n-bevliles.net/RAILROAD/articles/ra-v77-n19.pdf

Possibly of interest to the earlier-era modelers on this list.

SGL
La vita e breve, mangiate prima il dolce!


instructions

Schuyler Larrabee
 

http://www.jon-n-bevliles.net/RAILROAD/articles/ra-v77-n19.pdf

Possibly of interest to the earlier-era modelers on this list.

SGL
La vita e breve, mangiate prima il dolce!


unpainted roofs

ed_mines
 

Has anyone ever made a spread sheet or list of steam era box cars with
unpainted roofs?

Ed

118341 - 118360 of 189722