Date   

Re: Coal on the iron range

Cyril Durrenberger
 

The Winter 2005 issue of "The Mainstreeter" (N PRailway Historical Association) has an article describing a typical run made in teh 1950's from Duluth to Ironton. The train had 165 cars, 60 loaded with coal for locomotive servicing and to fuel the sintering plant at Crosby.

A number of photos taken in the Crosby/Ironton area clearly show that NP and Soo Line ore cars on the coal trestles for mine power plants. So ore cars were used to ship coal that was not always for company service. The photos show that this was not just a few cars.

Cyril Durrenberger


Re: Images from the Southeastern RPM Meet in Greensboro, NC

Frank Greene
 

ed_mines wrote:
--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Frank Greene <frgreene290@...> posted photos of some of the models displayed at the recent Greensboro
Thanks Frank.

Any idea of the heritage of the Virginian caboose? Is it a brass import?
A laser cut kit?

As Borat would say - "....very nice!"
Ed
Both were scratchbuilt. Very nice models, too. Unfortunately, I didn't get the modeler's name.

--

Frank Greene
Memphis, TN


Re: Images from the Southeastern RPM Meet in Greensboro, NC

ed_mines
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Frank Greene <frgreene290@...> posted
photos of some of the models displayed at the recent Greensboro

Thanks Frank.

Any idea of the heritage of the Virginian caboose? Is it a brass import?
A laser cut kit?

As Borat would say - "....very nice!"
Ed


Re: Athearn 50' fishbelly flat car

Jack Mullen
 

Rob Erickson wrote:

Finally, how about the C&NW's 45-ft flat cars? How many side pockets
did these cars have? If they also have 12 pockets, can anyone
suggest sources for photos and decals?
If you mean the 54801-54999 (odd)series built c.1918, the answer is
yes, 12 pockets. The far more numerous and well-known 46' flats built
in the '20s had 13 pockets. I don't know of any photos of this series,
but the lettering could be inferred from photos of the 46' cars.
Whether they would resemble a shortened Athearn car is another matter.
I have a diagram sheet which seems to show a somewhat shallower
fishbelly than later cars had. I'm not really familiar with the
Athearn car, anyway - wrong scale.

Jack Mullen


Re: Coal Loaded in Boxcars

Ted Schnepf
 

Hi Richard,

I have plans for a Indian coal mine being built new in the late 1950's and it was having a boxcar loader installed and one track with clearance for boxcars.

I have observed early photos of GN coaling trestles full of boxcars and gons for steam coal.

In a severe winter weather a boxcar would keep the coal dry (if it was loaded dry).

ted

At 10:29 AM 4/7/2008, you wrote:

So I've been doing research on car movements on the Yakima Valley
Transportation Co. in Washington State. The largest inbound shipments
on the YVT was coal to about half a dozen coal retailers in Yakima and
the surounding communities. Predominately the coal came from Bear
Creek, MT, Kleenburn & Kirby, WY, and from Ronald & Roslyn, WA. Most of
the shipments were in drop bottom gondolas but some are showing as
loads in boxcars.

So how common was it to ship coal in boxcars?

Thanks,

Richard Wilkens
Rails Unlimited
Ted Schnepf
railsunl@sbcglobal.net
847-697-5353 or 5366
126 Will Scarlet
Elgin, Ill. 60120
http://RailsUnlimited.ribbonrail.com/

Model Railroad Sales and Service with
a personal touch.
Books new and used. HO and O scales.
DCC supplies. O scale urethane cars.
Photos and darkroom services.
Checks, cash (0%) or credit (secure server at web site 4% added).


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Re: Covered hoppers (was Sand Cars)

Jerry Dziedzic
 

I was refreshing myself on my files while Richard was posting his
reply. Some additional information:

The first example of a "built new as covered hopper" for cement
service I've located is the Hercules Cement car built by Standard
Steel in 1928. An 1933 article in Railway Mechanical Engineer cites
Lackawanna as studying designs since 1929. Roads that converted
hopper cars to cement service include DL&W, LV, CNJ, RDG, PRR and
L&NE, all in the early 30's.

The Hercules car was a unique design, never repeated as far as I
know. ACF developed the first mass production design, building a
prototype in 1932. This is the car similar to the Bowser and Kato
products in HO scale.

However, Greenville may have been the first builder to actually
deliver cement cars to a common carrier, filling an Erie order in
1934.

ATSF was ACF's first customer, in 1936. NKP and C&O followed with
orders soon after. ACF also produced the 1790 cu ft variant, the
prototype for the F&C resin kit. L&NE was the first customer for
this car, with deliveries beginning in 1937. DL&W and L&NE operated
the largest fleets of the 1790 cu ft car.

Although ACF promoted both their designs as suitable for various
commodities, including cement, carbon black, flour, and clay, I agree
that the early adopters used them primarily in cement service.

The question about the first use of covered hoppers in sand service
is an interesting one. I'd guess that sand for the glass industry
was the first instance. I believe that most locomotive sanding
facilities were equipped with driers, so protecting locomotive sand
from moisture in transit was not a priority.

Here's a SWAG. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that covered hoppers
in sand service coincided with covered hoppers in soda ash service.
Once the glass industry began investing in bulk raw material
handling, why not soda ash as well as sand?

Jerry Dziedzic
Pattenburg, NJ

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...>
wrote:

Aside from a few odd-ball cars for specific service, the earliest
covered hoppers were converted from conventional hoppers in the
1920s, and the earliest cars built new as covered hoppers appeared
in
the early 1930s, mostly on northeastern RRs where they were used
in
bulk cement service. By the mid-'30s, numerous RRs were getting
small numbers of them on a trial basis (e.g., the Santa Fe got ten
cars in 1936) and larger numbers began to be ordered, especially
in
the northeast, ca. 1940-'41. AFAIK, however, non of these early
purpose-built covered hoppers were used for sand loading; they
remained in the bulk cement service for which they were designed
until many years after WW II.

Richard Hendrickson



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Covered hoppers (was Sand Cars)

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Apr 7, 2008, at 8:48 AM, Jim Betz wrote:

Hi All,
It is my understanding that the earliest covered hoppers were short
versions of what we think of as "cement hoppers" and that they were
used in both sand and cement service. The C&O may have been the first
and if not was certainly among the earliest and I think these cars
were even as old as "early thirties".
And it is my understanding that sand and cement service used the
first covered hoppers and that grain hoppers were as much as a
decade later.
Correct?
Anybody have any dates on the introduction of covered hoppers and
the approximate years that they started to be 'common' in various
uses?
I know that the first experiments with covered hoppers on the GN were
in 1940 and the first delivery was for twenty five 70t cars in 1946
(perhaps this order was delayed due to WWII?) and the first large
order
was for 175 cars delivered in 1949 (again they were 70t). I think the
first grain service covered hoppers on the GN were the 1955 Airslides.
Do these dates track to other RRs?





















Aside from a few odd-ball cars for specific service, the earliest
covered hoppers were converted from conventional hoppers in the
1920s, and the earliest cars built new as covered hoppers appeared in
the early 1930s, mostly on northeastern RRs where they were used in
bulk cement service. By the mid-'30s, numerous RRs were getting
small numbers of them on a trial basis (e.g., the Santa Fe got ten
cars in 1936) and larger numbers began to be ordered, especially in
the northeast, ca. 1940-'41. AFAIK, however, non of these early
purpose-built covered hoppers were used for sand loading; they
remained in the bulk cement service for which they were designed
until many years after WW II.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Images from the Southeastern RPM Meet in Greensboro, NC

Thomas Baker
 

Good stuff, thanks for sharing. Did someone post the models of the prototype meet down in Florida? Maybe I just didn't catch the notice.

Tom

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Frank Greene
Sent: Mon 4/7/2008 6:35 PM
To: undisclosed-recipients
Subject: [STMFC] Images from the Southeastern RPM Meet in Greensboro, NC

I posted photos of some of the models displayed at the recent Greensboro
meet: <http://frankg290.rrpicturearchives.net/archiveThumbs.aspx?id=31029>

Enjoy.

--

Frank Greene
Memphis, TN



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links


Re: Images from the Southeastern RPM Meet in Greensboro, NC

Cyril Durrenberger
 

Thanks for sharing with us.

Cyril Durrenberger

Frank Greene <frgreene290@comcast.net> wrote:
I posted photos of some of the models displayed at the recent Greensboro
meet:

Enjoy.

--

Frank Greene
Memphis, TN



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links


Images from the Southeastern RPM Meet in Greensboro, NC

Frank Greene
 

I posted photos of some of the models displayed at the recent Greensboro meet: <http://frankg290.rrpicturearchives.net/archiveThumbs.aspx?id=31029>

Enjoy.

--

Frank Greene
Memphis, TN


Re: B&LE offsets

Charlie Vlk
 

Pardon me if I missed it and this has been mentioned already, but one of the unique spotting features of the B&LE offset hoppers was they had
trucks with "ears" on the sideframes, like the ones that MDC used to provide with the modern shorty exterior braced ore car.
I remember seeing them every once in a while going through Brookfield, IL on the CB&Q in mainline mixed freights in the late 50's early 60's..
Charlie Vlk


Re: Coal Loaded in Boxcars - The Andrew Kolb coal shed.

gn3397 <heninger@...>
 

Group,
Pardon if this is a double posting. Here are a couple of links to
photos that may be of interest. The first is a photo of Cando, ND in
1910. Cando is on a GN branchline. Note the coal sheds between the
second and third elevators from the right. Also note the pile of
grain doors by the elevator in the foreground.

http://www.grainelevators.ca/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/6276/cat/1890

Here is a photo of a coal shed in Mohall, ND as it looks today.
Mohall is also on a GN branchline (at least in our era).

trackside:

http://www.grainelevators.ca/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/5358/cat/1702

Here is the backside, where the delivery truck (or customer's
vehicle, if they were willing to trade sweat equity for a discount on
the coal) would pull up to be loaded, by scoop shovel, of course.

http://www.grainelevators.ca/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/5355/cat/1702

Hope these are of some interest.

Sincerely,
Robert D. Heninger
Stanley, ND


ore heaping, was: B&LE triple offset hoppers

jim_mischke <jmischke@...>
 

I have a B&O W-1 quad hopper diagram showing proper loading of ore.
About 1/3 full, most in heap over slope sheets, yet ore covers all
hoppers.

A custom modeling job, not something you can cut up or file down a
Cooch load to fit.






--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Dean Payne" <1payne1@...> wrote:

Wow! What a motherlode of information! (My citing Wikipedia was a
much of a caveat as anything...)
I had no idea there was an article on modeling these! I'll have to
track down a copy of that article. I was afraid the the old Ulrich
kit might be too crude to be salvaged, but I'll have to read to
find out!
I have 5 photos of these cars, but none in color, thanks for the
link!
Three of my five photos are of B&LE triples with 10 side posts, but
an
off-list email informed me the 1931-built series doesn't match the
AAR
standard represented by the Accurail kit. (A later-built series
does.)
Would have these hauled ore off-line? If so, that would make a
different load! I've heard of stone being loaded slope-sheet-only,
would ore be like that, or just fill the whole thing part-way?
Would
the center hopper be empty, to keep the weight over the trucks?
Again, thanks to everyone for all the input on these, and hoppers in
ore service in general.

Dean Payne


--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "benjaminfrank_hom" <b.hom@> wrote:

Dean Payne wrote:
"I've been thinking about putting a B&LE car on my layout, and
remember reading that the old Ulrich triple hopper kit was based
on
the B&LE prototype. However, the new Accurail kit is nicer, from
what I hear. It isn't available lettered for the B&LE (but
neither
was the Ulrich, AFAIK)."

The Accurail triple is a nicer kit, but it isn't a model of the
B&LE
triple hoppers in question, either. The B&LE cars had 13 side
posts
vs. the 10 of the AAR Offset triple represented by the Accurail
kit.
The Ulrich model is indeed a model of these unique cars, and yes,
they were offered lettered for B&LE when they were in production.


"A little research on Wikipedia shows that the B&LE hoppers
were "rust-colored", to hide any obvious stains from the ore that
they carried, since the Bessemer was an iron ore road. I'm not
positive this refered to the triples, but maybe to later ore
hoppers."

You have move beyond Wikipedia for your research, my friend.
http://rr-fallenflags.org/ble/ble69268.jpg


"Since I model the late 30's, the B&LE hoppers were some of the
only
triples that I can justify. I've heard of build dates of 1936-37
for
some, and I saw a 1931 build date (unless I mistook the 7 as a 1,
which is possible)."

B&LE 75001-76500, 1500 cars, 1936 (70-ton cars)
B&LE 65001-69900, 4900 cars, 1938 (90-ton cars)

There were some roads acquiring triple offset hoppers as early as
1931 (DL&W and Boston & Albany immediately come to mind) but not
the
B&LE.


"These were heavily-built cars. A very odd characteristic of
these
cars are the trucks, 90-ton versions with "wings" on the outside
that
appear to be for outside-hung brake shoes! These have not been
offered anywhere in HO that I am aware of, and would be hard to
do,
because most decent trucks are engineering plastic, notoriously
hard
to glue to."

But not impossible, and Richard Hendrickson did so as far back as
1984. See his article in the March 1984 issue of Prototype
Modeler
for information on upgrading the Ulrich kit including kitbashing
these trucks.


"Were these EXTRA brake shoes, or were the heavy-duty trucks so
massive that the brakes had to be moved outside? I can't think of
any other cars in the timeframe of this list that had outside-hung
brakes!"

These were NOT extra brake shoes, but an outside clasp design.
While
uncommon, outside clasp brakes were used as early as the 1850s
and
were used in other applications, including some express cars
during
our era of interest.


"The MOST puzzling thing is that they had offset triples in the
first
place, if these indeed hauled iron ore. I've heard that standard
offset triples would be about half-full of iron ore before
reaching
capacity, and I don't think that even the B&LE's stout triples
could
be loaded enough to justify a triple, and if so, why the offset
sides
instead of the simpler ribbed sides? Most ore hoppers I've seen
are
shorties, not even standard-size twins. I wondered if they
somehow
found a way (post-WWII) to process the ore at the mine in such a
way
that made it purer and denser. That would be the one explanation
I
can think of for a switch from triples to shorties, but that is
pure
speculation."

There's one simple reason why the B&LE would use these cars in
ore
service: flexibility between ore and coal service. The B&LE
certainly had a need for coal hoppers, and though you can't fully
use
the cubic capacity of these cars in ore service, you can use them
to
haul both ore and coal instead of investing in a bunch of single
commodity ore cars. Note that the PRR used Class H21A/H21E quads
to
handle ore traffic and did not invest in specialized ore cars
until
the 1960s.

As for the offset design, this was for greater cubic capacity
while
hauling coal.

The Ulrich cars are a project that I've been considering for
TKM.
The Pennsy regularly saw trains of these cars along the Main Line
in
Philadelphia ore service, and a large cut of these models would
give
Bruce's stable of motors a run for their money!


Ben Hom


Re: Coal Loaded in Boxcars

David Smith
 


Just how much coal would be loaded into an average 40' boxcar?
Bill Williams

In message 55767 in the archives, a loader is described that tilts the car
so it can be pretty much filled with coal. I seem to recall that there may
be a picture in the files/photo section as well - no time to search for it
just now. I do know that this subject is well-represented in the archives.

Dave Smith
--
David L. Smith
Da Vinci Science Center
Allentown, PA
http://www.davinci-center.org

Please consider the environment before printing this email.


Re: pre-covered hopper Sand Cars?

Philip Marcus
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "rockroll50401" <cepropst@...> wrote:

The CGW used older single sheath cars. They painted them black and
stenciled them for sand service.
Clark Propst
Many of the CGW black painted SS box cars were designated for Hide
service only.
Phil Marcus


Re: Coal Loaded in Boxcars - The Andrew Kolb coal shed.

Cyril Durrenberger
 

There are still a few of these ex retail coal sheds around in Minnesota, although not currently being used for coal. In the past two years I have located, photographed and measured former retail coal sheds at Virginia (DM&N/DM&IR), Ironton (NP/Soo Line), Crosby (NP/Soo Line) and Blackduck (on the ex M&I/NP route). All are wood.

Cyril Durrenberger

Charlie Duckworth <trduck@cox.net> wrote:
There was a GN Historical Society Reference sheet published on
this topic in 1989. It was entitled "The Andrew Kolb coal shed". Hope
this helps. The sheet has a scale drawing of the shed, which is
fairly typical of their appearance.

Robert
I'm modeling several feed mills and elevators on my 1954 Mopac layout
and have been looking for a drawing of a coal shed so I could scratch-
build a couple sheds to go with the grain operations - could I trouble
you for a scan of the drawing?

Thanks - Charlie


Re: Coal Loaded in Boxcars

bill_d_goat
 

Very common, at least in my chosen modeling era and location. I will
be
modeling a GN branchline in ND circa 1949, and almost every small
town
had a "coal shed" sitting next to the grain elevators. These were
long,
low sheds with several rail height doors facing the tracks, and lower
height doors on the opposite side of the building, which was where
the
customer would pull up their truck and buy the coal. The coal would
be
shipped in older boxcars and would be unloaded by hand into the shed,
a
task which was usually subcontracted to teenaged boys. The boxcars
were
equipped with "coal doors", which were nothing more than worn out or
damaged grain doors, to retain the coal.
I have read of these boxcar coal shipments which were mostly due to
avoid the coal freezing in the open hoppers, which made them very hard
to unload.
Just how much coal would be loaded into an average 40' boxcar?
Bill Williams


Re: Coal Loaded in Boxcars - The Andrew Kolb coal shed.

Charlie Duckworth <trduck@...>
 

There was a GN Historical Society Reference sheet published on
this topic in 1989. It was entitled "The Andrew Kolb coal shed". Hope
this helps. The sheet has a scale drawing of the shed, which is
fairly typical of their appearance.

Robert
I'm modeling several feed mills and elevators on my 1954 Mopac layout
and have been looking for a drawing of a coal shed so I could scratch-
build a couple sheds to go with the grain operations - could I trouble
you for a scan of the drawing?

Thanks - Charlie


Re: Athearn 50' fishbelly flat car

Rob Erickson <pattirobpatti@...>
 

Group, can anyone recommend a source of HO scale decals for these
MILW 46-ft flatcars? I have Richard's article from the old Prototype
Modeler (Nov/Dec 1983 issue) and he used Walthers decals, long out of
production. An Internet search turned up Scale Rail set #31061, but
their website says these are no longer produced and are sold out.

Can anyone also recommend a source of photographs for these MILW
flats, circa late 1940s-early 1950s?

Finally, how about the C&NW's 45-ft flat cars? How many side pockets
did these cars have? If they also have 12 pockets, can anyone
suggest sources for photos and decals?

Thanks, Rob Erickson



--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, timboconnor@... wrote:


You can remove a middle section to model them as 46 foot, 12-pocket
flats of the Milwaukee and other roads. You'll need to remove the
side
brake stand and implement a more conventional end mount brake wheel.
Some prototypes had wide decks and some were narrow. It's pretty
easy
to sand off the plastic deck and add a replacement.

Tim O'Connor

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Jonathan Grant" <jonagrant@...>
I have a couple of these fishbelly flat cars and was wondering if
there
was anything prototypically similar that I could kitbash them
into,
that perhaps ran in the 1930s

Thahks
Jon


Re: pre-covered hopper Sand Cars?

rockroll50401 <cepropst@...>
 

The CGW used older single sheath cars. They painted them black and
stenciled them for sand service.
Clark Propst

111961 - 111980 of 183407