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Re: Barrett Tank cars

tmolsen@...
 

Armand,

There was an article in the September 1986 Mainline Modeler (Pages 76-79) by John Nehrich. The car was a converted 1920 10,000 Gal. Tank Car and was used to haul roofing shingle granules. Unfortunately, there were no decals available for this particular car. I had several sets custom made for this particular scheme by Kim at Champ and at that time the minimum was three sets at $15 sets plus the computer time to do the graphics. The bill was over $70. Champ still has the artwork, but they no longer do custom work or reprints since Richard Meyer passed away several years ago.

The tank was red, although it looks more of a faded red, almost pink in the color photos that I have seen. The Barrett logo was black with the Barrett name and the circle rim in silver as was the lettering on the tank body. There was a smaller circle logo on each end of the tank. It appears that the smaller lettering on the underframe and chutes were white.

In later years the car body color was changed to a medium gray with black lettering.

The plan was to use a Tichy 10,000 Gallon Tank car underframe, an Intermountain or Tichy car body and Cal-Scale tender water fill hatches that approximated the size and shape of the top hatches on the car. The dome would have to be removed, the opening closed and the discharge chutes scratch built and lettering sets pieced together for the smaller lettering beneath the car. Of course, if someone wanted to scratch build the tank, then the work of closing the manway opening in the top of the tank would be alleviated.

Barrett was a Division of Allied Chemical and Dye
Corporation. The car was given the classification "LO" by the AAR. The first 19 cars were built in the Barrett shops and the remaining 81 cars were built by Thrall Car Company. They were still in operation into the 60's and 70's. There are photographs of them in PRR trains enroute to the Barrett plant in Philadelphia.

Sometime in the future, I hope to tackle this project and see how it goes together.

Regards,
Tom Olsen
7 Boundary Road, West Branch
Mewark, Delaware, 19711-7479
(302) 738-4292
tmolsen@udel.edu


Re: Army tanks on flats

Pieter Roos
 

Here is a site listing armor used in the Korean war.

http://korea50.army.mil/history/factsheets/kw_armor.shtml

No M-41, at least not until the very end. M24 light tanks with 75mm
guns initially from Japanese occupation forces, then the M4A3 76mm
"Easy Eight" and Pershings. As others indicate, the Pershing DID see
WWII service, several hundred reaching Europe before VE day, although
how many saw action I don't know.

I wasn't sure how long the M7B2 remained in service, but my google
search turned up a repro maintenance manual originally from 1954, so
presumably it was still in use then.

Pieter Roos

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "andy.laurent" <andy.laurent@...> wrote:

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, water.kresse@ wrote:

The M-26s with 90 mm guns might be more appropriate? Built very
late-WW2 but not used until the Korean War . . . along with the M-41
with 76 mm light tanks.

Al Kresse
I wondered about this as well. During the Korean War, weren't the
primary US Army tanks in armored brigades the M4A4E8 (Easy 8) tanks?
Otherwise as Al says, would the M26 or M41 be the tank of choice for
our Korean War-era military trains?

I model a short cut of 2 flatcars with M7B2 Priest self-propelled
howitzers, which were used to support armored brigades. Call
them "replacement vehicles" instead of a full Army unit in transit. I
have a similar 1-car load of 2 Duece and a half trucks without
beds...also as refurbished replacements from stocks. Plausible in
Wisconsin in 1952?

Andy L.


Re: Army tanks on flats

Jeffrey White
 

http://cgsc.cdmhost.com/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/p4013coll9&CISOPTR=65&CISOBOX=1&REC=16

This link will take you to the Handbook of Transportation by Rail and Commercial Vessels. It's WWI vintage. A 129 page .pdf file, the first 35 or so pages are all about the paperwork used to request transportation and contract with the carrier. Then it gets into car descriptions, how to compute how many cars you need etc.

I tried to upload it to the files section, but it doesn't seem to be working for me tonight. Hope this helps someone.

Jeff


tanks on flatcars one more time

Don Worthy
 

Guys, I've got the book "Marine Tank Battles of the Korean War". It is full of photos of the late model Sherman tanks in action along side the new M26.

The author states that the Sherman tanks were, also, the 1st on the scene as they were already in Japan. Also, a large number of half tracks with the quad 50 cals were used.



I, also, have photos of these late model (M4A3 with the VVHS suspension) which had both 76mm in the T26 turret and the 105mm guns on flatcars leaving a camp in Georgia. I have been unable in finding out "just" which camp, although. A few guys think it must have been Ft. Benning.



Any way, the photos show one tank per flatcar. Two flats are clearly visible and a third flat has two trucks (2 1/2 ton).



One thing that I can't determine from my own photos or the ones in the book, is the lettering on the equipment. I'd like to be able to read the division, company and such.



The books photos are shots made "in action" so the only thing that is not covered up by mud or stowed equipment is the tanks number.



Could some of you help me with the proper designation "lettering" for my tanks and trucks.

I'm wanting my equipment to represent the 2nd Marines which carried on a large part of the 1st battles of Korea.

Thanks

Don Worthy



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Re: Army tanks on flats

water.kresse@...
 

Didn't the M-59?all steel APC come in there in the 50s? The M-113 Aluminum APC was built in South Charleston, WV, by FMC near the C&O Elk yard in the 60s.

This is taxing my poor old brain.

Al Kresse

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "Bob Gangwish" <bobgang@aol.com>
Group,
"Of course, "units" rarely moved from stateside to foreign postings,
except during wartime. So a 1950s-era vehicle movement would have to be
set during the Korean War, or would be moving west as part of a joint
excersize at the National Training Center at Ft. Eustis, CA. And in
context, this single tank company would be moving as part of the tank
battalion or brigade."

I am sure the experts know more about this than I, but I am wondering
about fairly large shipments of tanks post- WWII and perhaps post-
Korea. I was part of the 2nd Armored Cav. in Germany in 1954 when our
flock of M-24 light tanks were replaced by M (at the time T-)41's. I am
guessing that they came as a consolidated shipment even though not part
of a "unit." A similar occurence happened when out half-tracks were
replaced by T-113 Armored Personnel Carriers.

Bob Gangwish


Tama IA

Justin Kahn
 

Was the terminating railroad still the MILW or did the Tama and Toledo actually handle the cars?
Jace Kahn, General Manager
Ceres and Canisteo RR Co.


Watermelons were still delivered by rail on the MILW to a wholesale grocer in Tama, Iowa in
the early 1950's.
He than delivered them by truck, and by the late 50's only potatoes and some bananas were
coming in by rail.
Ron Christensen
_________________________________________________________________
Make i'm yours.  Create a custom banner to support your cause.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Army tanks on flats

Jeffrey White
 

Andy,
Camp McCoy (now Ft McCoy) near Sparta had a large role during WWII and at the start of the Korean War. The Milwaukee Road runs right through South CP McCoy and there are spurs going to the warehouse area on main post. Somewhere I still have a 1:50,000 map with datum from the 1950s and it warns of 100 mph trains on the mainline.

The camp closed down as an active installation in Jan 53. However it continued to be a large reserve component training area often hosting up to 50,000 soldiers during the summer.

I don't know that year the Equipment Concentration Site was opened there, but they stored all kinds of heavy equipment for units to draw from so they didn't have to transport their own from home station.

I think that your loads would be appropriate for equipment enroute there.

See this link for more info on Camp McCoy.

http://www.mccoy.army.mil/ReadingRoom/Triad/90th%20anniversary%20triad/chronicle%201950s.htm

Jeff




andy.laurent wrote:




I wondered about this as well. During the Korean War, weren't the
primary US Army tanks in armored brigades the M4A4E8 (Easy 8) tanks?
Otherwise as Al says, would the M26 or M41 be the tank of choice for
our Korean War-era military trains?

I model a short cut of 2 flatcars with M7B2 Priest self-propelled
howitzers, which were used to support armored brigades. Call
them "replacement vehicles" instead of a full Army unit in transit. I
have a similar 1-car load of 2 Duece and a half trucks without
beds...also as refurbished replacements from stocks. Plausible in
Wisconsin in 1952?

Andy L.


Re: Army tanks on flats

Andy Laurent
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, water.kresse@... wrote:

The M-26s with 90 mm guns might be more appropriate? Built very
late-WW2 but not used until the Korean War . . . along with the M-41
with 76 mm light tanks.

Al Kresse
I wondered about this as well. During the Korean War, weren't the
primary US Army tanks in armored brigades the M4A4E8 (Easy 8) tanks?
Otherwise as Al says, would the M26 or M41 be the tank of choice for
our Korean War-era military trains?

I model a short cut of 2 flatcars with M7B2 Priest self-propelled
howitzers, which were used to support armored brigades. Call
them "replacement vehicles" instead of a full Army unit in transit. I
have a similar 1-car load of 2 Duece and a half trucks without
beds...also as refurbished replacements from stocks. Plausible in
Wisconsin in 1952?

Andy L.


GMO Hopper

armprem
 

GMO Hopper 60537 left Alburgh,Vt on Rutland train # 9 on November 13th
1950.An anomaly, or was it headed for Sherman Hill? <g>,A Premo


Re: Sherman tank shipping data

W. Lindsay Smith <wlindsays2000@...>
 

Try http://www.allpar.com/history/military/arsenal-of-democracy.html
for some Crysler publicity and a picture of new tanks on flat cars in
tarps.
Lindsay
--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Kurt Laughlin" <fleeta@...> wrote:

Someone was asking for this a few days ago. These are from the
shipping sections of the Technical manuals.

M4 (105mm) with HVSS (wide) suspension
244 L; 118 W; 133 H; 178 sq ft deck area; 1972 cu ft; 69,385 lbs;
389 psi bearing pressure

M4A1 (76mm) with VVSS (narrow) suspension
291 L; 107 W; 135 H; 213 sq ft deck area; 2433 cu ft; 70,645 lbs;
332 psi bearing pressure

KL



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: NYCSHS "Central Headlight" 1970-74 Reprint

Jeff English
 

Rich,

I can't answer that question right now because I lent my copy to my
brother. I'll see after I get it back. I have no recollection,
though, of anything particularly on the Penn Div., but then again, my
memory has proven not very reliable.

Jeff English
Troy, New York

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, SUVCWORR@... wrote:


In a message dated 4/21/2008 9:06:41 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
englij@... writes:

The most significant thing of interest to STMFC is the two-part
article on the history of the NYC oval herald as applied to
equipment. As such there are many photos of equipment to
illustrate
various time periods of oval herald application, as well as a
comprehensive description of its history.




Jeff,

Is there anything on the NYC Pennsylvania Division? Of particular
interest
are the branches serving, Mehaffey, Burnside, Cherry Tree, the
CT&D RR and
the mines in the area.

Rich Orr



**************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S.
used car
listings at AOL Autos.
(http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Army tanks on flats

ltctilley
 

Last time I was at McCoy, those signs warning of 100 mph trains were still
posted, but judging by the track, probably 20-30 mph would be pretty exciting.

Anybody ever heard of the US 12 inch railway howitzer of 1918? I found the
plans at the Ft. Sill, OK library and scratchbuilt one in HO scale.

Interesting list. Keep up the great info flow!
glad to be the new guy
Chris Tilley
LTC, USAR



**************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car
listings at AOL Autos.
(http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851)


Re: Army tanks on flats

Dave Owens
 

There is actually a Yahoo group devoted to TO&Es where this
information would probably be available. I have used the group to
obtain information for a military rail movement I am modeling.

Here is the group's website:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TOandEs/

Dave Owens

--
New England/Northeast Prototype Modelers Meet
May 30-31, 2008, Collinsville, CT
www.neprototypemeet.com


Army tanks on flats

Bob Gangwish <bobgang@...>
 

Group,
"Of course, "units" rarely moved from stateside to foreign postings,
except during wartime. So a 1950s-era vehicle movement would have to be
set during the Korean War, or would be moving west as part of a joint
excersize at the National Training Center at Ft. Eustis, CA. And in
context, this single tank company would be moving as part of the tank
battalion or brigade."

I am sure the experts know more about this than I, but I am wondering
about fairly large shipments of tanks post- WWII and perhaps post-
Korea. I was part of the 2nd Armored Cav. in Germany in 1954 when our
flock of M-24 light tanks were replaced by M (at the time T-)41's. I am
guessing that they came as a consolidated shipment even though not part
of a "unit." A similar occurence happened when out half-tracks were
replaced by T-113 Armored Personnel Carriers.

Bob Gangwish


Re: Army tanks on flats

Jeffrey White
 

One thing to keep in mind is that all units of the same type were/are not equipped with the same model tank, personnel carrier etc. The procurement system has never provided the entire Army with the latest equipment at the same time. In the mid 50s you would have found both the M47 and M48 fielded in the active component and in some of the RC. The rest of the RC would have still had the M4.

What you really need is an MTOE (Modified Table of Organization and Equipment) for the unit you are modeling. This document would reflect the unit as the log people we able to equip it, not how the people who wrote the doctrine envisioned it to be.

A unit smaller then battalion normally wouldn't move by rail by itself. A battalion loaded on a train would have all of it's tanks and a large number of soft skin vehicles that belonged to the HHC (Headquarters and Headquarters Company). These would include jeeps (at least one for each headquarters section S1, S2, S3, S4, commo plt, support platoon), 3/4 ton trucks, ambulances for the evac section, 2 1/2 ton trucks, 5 ton trucks, fuel trucks and most likely a soft skin wrecker.

It would make an interesting train to model.

Jeff (1SG USA Ret)

water.kresse@comcast.net wrote:


The M-26s with 90 mm guns might be more appropriate? Built very late-WW2 but not used until the Korean War . . . along with the M-41 with 76 mm light tanks.

Al Kresse

-------------- Original message --------------
From: Ray Breyer <rtbsvrr69@yahoo.com <mailto:rtbsvrr69%40yahoo.com>>

richtownsend@netscape.net <mailto:richtownsend%40netscape.net> wrote:
We seem to have some experts on tanks in this group, so I am
inspired to ask a >>question...I want to model a late steam era train carrying a group...of M-47 tanks from >>their normal base to be embarked for overseas deployment.? So my question is what and >>how much of what kinds of equipment should be included? Like tanks, for instance? How >>many?

Hi Rich,

Sorry I'm getting to this question so late, but I had to find my old US Army TO&Es. I found my 1945 T/017 TO&E, and it's got exactly what you're looking for.

A medium tank company consisted of a HQ and service section and three tank platoons. The HQ section consisted of two M-4 (Sherman) tanks, one 1/4 ton truck (Jeep), and one M-4 tank equipped with a 105mm howitzer instead of the usual 75mm or 76mm main gun. The service section consisted of a single 2-1/4 ton truck (deuce & a half) and one 1 ton trailer. The maintenance section consisted of one M-34 ARV (armored recovery vehicle), one M-3 halftrack and one Jeep. Each of the three tank platoons consisted of five M-4 tanks.

In the 1950s (Korean War and just post) this basic tank unit TO&E didn't change. Tank units were reduced to four tanks per platoon in the early 1960s (I want to say 1962, but that's beyond my period of interest and the scope of this forum). The company would be one vehicle short: the 105mm Shermans were dropped off the TO&E right after WWII.

Of course, "units" rarely moved from stateside to foreign postings, except during wartime. So a 1950s-era vehicle movement would have to be set during the Korean War, or would be moving west as part of a joint excersize at the National Training Center at Ft. Eustis, CA. And in context, this single tank company would be moving as part of the tank battalion or brigade.

Hope this helps!

Ray Breyer

---------------------------------
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Re: Wright Trak Reefers

Frank Greene
 

Roland Levin wrote:
I saw this modell in the latest Modell Railroader. I have never built or
seen any models from them. I'm used to plastic kits from Intermountain,
Branschline, Railline, Details ass., Front Range, Durango press, Life Like
Proto 2000, Red Caboose and resin kits from Westerfield. How are the quality
of the kits from them and is it correct?
http://www.wrighttrak.com/fge.htm
Have you searched Yahoo message archives? The model and prototype have been discussed (e.g., discussions starting with messages 58525 and 51229).

Wright Trak's quality is very good. One caboose kit out of the dozen or so kits I've purchased had a warped resin casting and Gary promptly replaced it. The castings and stainless steel etchings in both FGE reefer kits I purchased (but haven't built) are excellent.

The model was based on FGE 1580, which is preserved at the NC Transportation Museum <http://frankg290.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=594507>.

--

Frank Greene
Memphis, TN


Re: Army tanks on flats

lnnrr <lnnrr@...>
 

Growing up in Louisville KY, I seem to recall Army Reserve units
moving in and out of Fort Knox for summer training, with tanks on
flatcars. I don't know from how far these were moved nor exact years
but it would have been 1950's.
Chuck Peck

> Of course, "units" rarely moved from stateside to foreign
postings, except during wartime. So a 1950s-era vehicle movement would
have to be set during the Korean War, or would be moving west as part
of a joint excersize at the National Training Center at Ft. Eustis,
CA. And in context, this single tank company would be moving as part
of the tank battalion or brigade.

Hope this helps!

Ray Breyer


Re: Army tanks on flats

Pieter Roos
 

Hi Chuck;

Probably true, although how many went by rail is an open question.
Also hard to explain as a recurring shipment across multiple operating
sessions.

There is a photo, I think in Nimke's Connecticut River Railroads,
showing a couple of flatcars loaded with M4A3 76mm "Easy Eight"
Shermans delivered to a local National Guard unit at the team track.
Easy to do in O scale with the old Aurora Sherman kits, but I don't
know of any decent models of that Sherman in HO.

Pieter Roos

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, RUTLANDRS@... wrote:

I also reckon that in the late 40's to mid 50's, some cities, VFW and
American Legion posts received "a tank" for display.

Chuck Hladik
Rutland Railroad
Virginia Division
NMRA L5756


Re: "How far to go" ... was ... Intermountain FGEX / WFEX Reefers

Charlie Vlk
 

I wish that all we N Scalers had to worry about in the IM FGEX/WFEX Reefers were the points being discussed about the HO cars.
To my eye, the tooling on the N Scale versions is a little "mushy" and the molds for the ends and sides don't seem to fit to each other
properly..... a problem shared with the N 50' Boxcar.
And so far we don't have any indication of the N Scale MILW Ribside Car being worked on....
Charlie Vlk


ACL gondola ?

fiddlertrain
 

Hi
I was admiring Marty McGuirk's F&C ACL gon on the old SEFC web site
and
I accquired 2. My question is i model 1950 and I had gotten2 proto
1000
gons that were painted box car red. I upgraded them with wood
interior
planking and grab iron but his is painted black. For 1950 which
would
be correct? By the way nise job Marty.
Fidel C. Goodnight

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