Date   

New S scale kit coming soon

Jim King
 

Following closely behind our popular CofG ventilated boxcar will be the
Southern Ry. 41'6" flat car, built in 1926 and lasting into the mid-1990s in
MofW and ribbon rail train service. This car was the basis for at least 6
other cars, including a 1926 composite gon and 27 transfer cabooses, both of
which will be produced over the next 12 months.



Visit the web site link below to view a prototype pic of this car . go to
the "S Scale" orange icon and pick the page you want to visit from there.
The pilot model is being built now and will be debuted at the Oak Ridge TN
"Blue Ridge "S"calers" meet on 5/31. Kits will start shipping in mid-June.
Order thru our dealers (listed on a separate web page) or direct . be sure
to add appropriate shipping or contact me if you have questions.



In other news, I am tooling 2 trucks: a 100-ton roller bearing and a
"Bettendorf" style. The former will have rotating end caps, a first in our
scale and will be produced ENTIRELY IN THE USA. Both will have
scale-appearing springs and will be equalized. Wheels and axles will be
black-oxided brass. The RB truck will be first because it's needed for the
kit following the SR flat . the Southern Ry. 1974 PS 50 ft "waffle side"
boxcar (other versions for CSX and its predecessors will follow the Southern
car).



Place your order/reservation for the flat car now to hold your kit(s) or
contact your dealer.



Jim King

Smoky Mountain Model Works, Inc.

www.smokymountainmodelworks.com


Re: Freight car colors...

Doug Dolloff
 

The way that paint is mixed is by weighing the different colors. It is not by a 50/50 or 25/75 ratio. Different paint colors way different amounts, therfore you may add 5 grams of color A and 20 grams of color B to get color 25 grams of color C. This is how automotive paint is matched aswell as most house paints. You can use weight ratio like 5 parts part A + 20 parts of B = 25 parts of color C. That way anyone can use a weight ratio to get the same color, wether they are using grams, pounds, wheelsets, etc.. Paint pigments weigh different amounts. Typically yellow pigment paint ways more than blue or black because it takes more pigment to create yellow than blue or black. Weight is the only way I know of to accuratley tint or change the tint of any color and be able to recreate the same color later or to tell someone else how to recreate the same color.

I hope this helps.

Doug
Rob Kirkham <rdkirkham@...> wrote:
Gee that is a creative idea Jack, but unfortunately, I don't think the
electronic mix will give you any useful information. While I'm not really
up on the pigments used in model paints, use of artists paints can be a
revelation. We were all taught in grade school, for example, that red and
yellow make orange, blue and red make purple, etc. But with paints, they do
not always react with each other the way these generalisations suggest they
should. Blue and red do not always make purple - it depends on the
pigments. And those that do mix to purple certainly don't all make the same
purples or make the purple someone new to the pigment might expect. The
result is that the theoretical formulations of colour manifest in light on
your computer screen do not mix in the same way as actual pigments - and so
won't predict the results of the mixes of real pigment.

Rob Kirkham

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Burgess" <jack@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2008 4:11 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Freight car colors...

Mixing paint to match a paint chip, a paint sample, a photo, or memory is,
for me, very difficult. One could obviously prepare 50/50 mixes of all
possible combinations of one manufacturer's paint line but there are also
possible combinations other than 50/50 and 50/25/25 possibilities.

I've given a lot of thought to how that might be done "electronically".
Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find a program to take samples of
paint color and easily "mix" them. However, I have played with the
Gradient
Tool in Photoshop (also available in Photoshop Elements). If one scans
painted samples of two paint colors, such as Floquil Boxcar Red and
Floquil
Tuscan, and open the scans in Photoshop, the Eyedropper Tool can be used
to
load those colors as the Foreground and Background color. The Gradient
Tool
can then be used to "mix" the two colors and produce a 50/50 or 25/75 mix
or
any other proportion electronically. The resulting mixes can be saved as
color swatches and so labeled. By scanning all of the available "reds"
from
one manufacturer, one could produce swatches of all possible variations.
Samples of the prototype colors could also be sampled and compared to the
mixes.

I need to develop a variation of boxcar red to match the YV cabooses I
painted many years ago (unfortunately, I didn't keep track of the
proportions back then) for a project I'm working on. I'm thinking that a
good test for the process would be to mix two reds electronically and also
physically and compare the results.

Has anyone done anything similar? Was it successful?

Jack Burgess
www.yosemitevalleyrr.com


Re: MILW boxcar

Dennis Williams
 

Which is the better, Rib Side or the Sunshine?? Dennis
--- Dean Payne <1payne1@...> wrote:

--- In STMFC@..., bill davis
<billcheri72@...> wrote:

Hi Guys,
What color red was used on MILW rib side boxcars
and what model
paint matches it.
BILL

According to the instructions on my Rib Side Cars
kit, the matching
paint for what they used is Polyscale F404079, Oxide
Red. I do not
know if this is considered the most accurate color
by the experts.
I've heard "� a mixture of Accupaint Oxide Red and
Freight Car Brown"
as well, but I forget the exact source.
Dean Payne


Re: "Boxcar Red"

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Um, yeah, You are correctly right.

SGL

"frequently seen on a variety of freight car types of freight cars in the
railroad industry."

The Department of Redundancy Department?

Jerry Michels


Re: MILW boxcar -- truck color

William Keene <wakeene@...>
 

Hello group,

I am in the process of assembling one of the Rib Side Cars kits and
have a rather simple question...
What color were the trucks painted?

I have surfed through some websites and it appears that trucks were
painted black. But... in photos taken during our steam era (black &
white photos) it appears that the trucks are a lighter shade than what
I would consider black. Were the trucks painted the boxcar color in
the early 1950s? Or were these actually black and my old eyes are the
problem?

Thanks,
-- Bill Keene
Irvine, CA

On May 14, 2008, at 5:12 PM, Dean Payne wrote:

--- In STMFC@..., bill davis <billcheri72@...> wrote:

Hi Guys,
What color red was used on MILW rib side boxcars and what model
paint matches it.
BILL

According to the instructions on my Rib Side Cars kit, the matching
paint for what they used is Polyscale F404079, Oxide Red. I do not
know if this is considered the most accurate color by the experts.
I've heard " a mixture of Accupaint Oxide Red and Freight Car Brown"
as well, but I forget the exact source.
Dean Payne



Re: Freight car colors...

Rob Kirkham <rdkirkham@...>
 

Gee that is a creative idea Jack, but unfortunately, I don't think the electronic mix will give you any useful information. While I'm not really up on the pigments used in model paints, use of artists paints can be a revelation. We were all taught in grade school, for example, that red and yellow make orange, blue and red make purple, etc. But with paints, they do not always react with each other the way these generalisations suggest they should. Blue and red do not always make purple - it depends on the pigments. And those that do mix to purple certainly don't all make the same purples or make the purple someone new to the pigment might expect. The result is that the theoretical formulations of colour manifest in light on your computer screen do not mix in the same way as actual pigments - and so won't predict the results of the mixes of real pigment.

Rob Kirkham

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Burgess" <jack@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2008 4:11 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Freight car colors...


Mixing paint to match a paint chip, a paint sample, a photo, or memory is,
for me, very difficult. One could obviously prepare 50/50 mixes of all
possible combinations of one manufacturer's paint line but there are also
possible combinations other than 50/50 and 50/25/25 possibilities.

I've given a lot of thought to how that might be done "electronically".
Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find a program to take samples of
paint color and easily "mix" them. However, I have played with the Gradient
Tool in Photoshop (also available in Photoshop Elements). If one scans
painted samples of two paint colors, such as Floquil Boxcar Red and Floquil
Tuscan, and open the scans in Photoshop, the Eyedropper Tool can be used to
load those colors as the Foreground and Background color. The Gradient Tool
can then be used to "mix" the two colors and produce a 50/50 or 25/75 mix or
any other proportion electronically. The resulting mixes can be saved as
color swatches and so labeled. By scanning all of the available "reds" from
one manufacturer, one could produce swatches of all possible variations.
Samples of the prototype colors could also be sampled and compared to the
mixes.

I need to develop a variation of boxcar red to match the YV cabooses I
painted many years ago (unfortunately, I didn't keep track of the
proportions back then) for a project I'm working on. I'm thinking that a
good test for the process would be to mix two reds electronically and also
physically and compare the results.

Has anyone done anything similar? Was it successful?

Jack Burgess
www.yosemitevalleyrr.com


Re: MILW boxcar

Dean Payne
 

--- In STMFC@..., bill davis <billcheri72@...> wrote:

Hi Guys,
What color red was used on MILW rib side boxcars and what model
paint matches it.
BILL

According to the instructions on my Rib Side Cars kit, the matching
paint for what they used is Polyscale F404079, Oxide Red. I do not
know if this is considered the most accurate color by the experts.
I've heard "… a mixture of Accupaint Oxide Red and Freight Car Brown"
as well, but I forget the exact source.
Dean Payne


Double-Deck Wooden Stock Cars

Paul Hillman
 

I have John White's, "The American Railroad Freight Car", book,
covering wooden freight cars, "until the coming of steel", but found
no description of how the upper deck of double-deck stock cars was
supported.

Wikipedia, "Stock Car(Rail)", shows a diagram of, US Patent 106,887,
(C.1890's) by Mr. Zadok Street, where apparently several, vertical-
posts support the upper floor from the lower car-floor.

Was this the "standard" way developed/followed in wooden stock cars
for supporting the upper decking, and also in the supporting of
removeble upper floors? Were there sometimes vertical supports up to
the roof members?

"2 inch" boards couldn't just be attached to the car-side boards and
support the "critters" weight in the middle of the car.

I find no photos showing stockcar interiors as how supported.

Trying to do an accurately detailed, double-deck, wooden stock car.

Thanks, Paul Hillman


Re: Freight car colors...

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Jack Burgess wrote:
I've given a lot of thought to how that might be done "electronically" . . . I have played with the Gradient Tool in Photoshop (also available in Photoshop Elements). If one scans painted samples of two paint colors, such as Floquil Boxcar Red and Floquil Tuscan, and open the scans in Photoshop, the Eyedropper Tool can be used to load those colors as the Foreground and Background color. The Gradient Tool can then be used to "mix" the two colors and produce a 50/50 or 25/75 mix or any other proportion electronically. The resulting mixes can be saved as color swatches and so labeled. By scanning all of the available "reds" from one manufacturer, one could produce swatches of all possible variations. Samples of the prototype colors could also be sampled and compared to the mixes.
This is the classic problem, Jack: the physics of the situation is against you. What you see on your screen (and what Photoshop constructs) is RGB light colors, an ADDITIVE color production method. But paint (and printing onto paper) are a SUBTRACTIVE color production. Pantone is supposed to be one way around that--but only in the sense that you IGNORE what you see on the screen, and trust the Pantone chip for how it will look when printed.
Even with frequently calibrated monitors and high-end ink jet printing, you are not going to produce what the paint will render.
Your last sentence, making up physical paint batches and somehow learning how those relate to the on-screen product, would be the only way to go, but IMO you're awfully close to square one at that point.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: BOX CAR RED- SUGGESTION

Greg Martin
 

Bill,

It was my understanding that they/China use the RAL system, at least with the projects I have been involved in...

Greg Martin

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Schneider <branchline@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Wed, 14 May 2008 4:34 pm
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: BOX CAR RED- SUGGESTION






Ah yes.... the Purple Pullman. Actually, it was a bit more Plum and Fuscia, but certainly NOT any acceptable match for the PRR Loewy "Fleet of Modernism" scheme! The sample is still on my shelf and a popular exhibit with folks that stop by the plant....

Honestly, I have found (with some of Marty's help) that dealing with China on paint colors is probably the MOST frustrating part of the job, and Pantone is of NO help. Only color chips of our paints (most matched to samples provided ages ago by Ed Hawkins - thanks Ed) sent to China with requests for samples back - twice - provided a "standard" for both sides to work with. Of course, they still ask for Pantone numbers....

Bill

cvsne <mjmcguirk@...> wrote:
Thinking the Pantone system would be a quick, efficient way of
communicating the desire color to the factory in China I tried using
it when I was at Intermountain. The results ranged from comical (Ask
Bill about his purple Pullman) to much worse. I finally gave up.
Based on some of the color gaffs I've seen out of Longmont in the last
couple of releases I think they may still be trying to plough this
unfertile ground yet again.

Marty


Re: BOX CAR RED- SUGGESTION

Bill Schneider <branchline@...>
 

Ah yes.... the Purple Pullman. Actually, it was a bit more Plum and Fuscia, but certainly NOT any acceptable match for the PRR Loewy "Fleet of Modernism" scheme! The sample is still on my shelf and a popular exhibit with folks that stop by the plant....

Honestly, I have found (with some of Marty's help) that dealing with China on paint colors is probably the MOST frustrating part of the job, and Pantone is of NO help. Only color chips of our paints (most matched to samples provided ages ago by Ed Hawkins - thanks Ed) sent to China with requests for samples back - twice - provided a "standard" for both sides to work with. Of course, they still ask for Pantone numbers....

Bill

cvsne <mjmcguirk@...> wrote:
Thinking the Pantone system would be a quick, efficient way of
communicating the desire color to the factory in China I tried using
it when I was at Intermountain. The results ranged from comical (Ask
Bill about his purple Pullman) to much worse. I finally gave up.
Based on some of the color gaffs I've seen out of Longmont in the last
couple of releases I think they may still be trying to plough this
unfertile ground yet again.

Marty


Freight car colors...

Jack Burgess <jack@...>
 

Mixing paint to match a paint chip, a paint sample, a photo, or memory is,
for me, very difficult. One could obviously prepare 50/50 mixes of all
possible combinations of one manufacturer's paint line but there are also
possible combinations other than 50/50 and 50/25/25 possibilities.

I've given a lot of thought to how that might be done "electronically".
Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find a program to take samples of
paint color and easily "mix" them. However, I have played with the Gradient
Tool in Photoshop (also available in Photoshop Elements). If one scans
painted samples of two paint colors, such as Floquil Boxcar Red and Floquil
Tuscan, and open the scans in Photoshop, the Eyedropper Tool can be used to
load those colors as the Foreground and Background color. The Gradient Tool
can then be used to "mix" the two colors and produce a 50/50 or 25/75 mix or
any other proportion electronically. The resulting mixes can be saved as
color swatches and so labeled. By scanning all of the available "reds" from
one manufacturer, one could produce swatches of all possible variations.
Samples of the prototype colors could also be sampled and compared to the
mixes.

I need to develop a variation of boxcar red to match the YV cabooses I
painted many years ago (unfortunately, I didn't keep track of the
proportions back then) for a project I'm working on. I'm thinking that a
good test for the process would be to mix two reds electronically and also
physically and compare the results.

Has anyone done anything similar? Was it successful?

Jack Burgess
www.yosemitevalleyrr.com


Re: BOX CAR RED- SUGGESTION

Charles Morrill
 

Tony,
And I, for one at least, really do appreciate that extra step in your book.

Awaiting the tank car book,
Charlie

----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthony Thompson" <thompson@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2008 5:30 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] BOX CAR RED- SUGGESTION


Rob Kirkham wrote:
Having gone down this path myself using Pantone, Federal Standard and other systems, I found I was able to do more to discuss colour by going down to a paint shop, having them mix a batch of paint matched to a given chip, and then painting it with a roller . . .
I wonder if there is any appetite (among folks with chips that could be matched) to do likewise.
It should be noted that there are generous-size paint "chips" in the back of the PFE book. These were very carefully matched, ON PRESS, to PFE's own paint chips. They are a starting point.
Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: BOX CAR RED- SUGGESTION

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Rob Kirkham wrote:
Having gone down this path myself using Pantone, Federal Standard and other systems, I found I was able to do more to discuss colour by going down to a paint shop, having them mix a batch of paint matched to a given chip, and then painting it with a roller . . .
I wonder if there is any appetite (among folks with chips that could be matched) to do likewise.
It should be noted that there are generous-size paint "chips" in the back of the PFE book. These were very carefully matched, ON PRESS, to PFE's own paint chips. They are a starting point.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Freight car colors...

SUVCWORR@...
 

In a message dated 5/14/2008 10:00:05 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
jack@... writes:

I can't argue that weight is the proper way to establish and document paint
mixing although it would seem that the paint machine at the local hardware
or paint store is using volume to make the resulting paint mixture. It would
seem that using volume would work in this situation if the original paint
chips were originally produced the same way. That aside, when you are mixing
up only 1/2 fluid ounces of paint to paint a box car, I can't see how one
can weigh the ingredients...if you pour the base colors into separate
containers and weigh them and then pour the colors into another container to
attach to the air brush, the paint remaining in the containers will throw
the formula off considerably. Also, I'm confused by the "parts"
reference....parts suggests volume, not weight. But, at this point, the
discussion seems moot, after Tony pointed out a fatal flaw in my approach...





Since this all started with a PRR freight car color comment,

I have before me a photocopy of PRR form 53 dated 11 November 1902 and
issued by W. W. Atterbury General Supt. Motive Power entitled "Instructions
Regarding to Mixing of P.R.R. Freight Car Color." It gives the formula by weight
and volume combination and by percentage. The first and second coats were
different formulae.
combination
weight percentage
First coat
PRR standard freight car color paste 32 pounds 32 pounds
55.2
Raw linseed oil 9 pints
81/2 pounds 40.7
Japan 3 pints
3 pounds 4.1

Second coat
PRR standard freight car color past 32 pounds 32
pounds 51.3
Raw linseed oil 12 pints
11 1/4 pounds 44.2
Japan 3 1/2 pints
3 1/2 pounds 4.5

"These are formulas are for use during the summer season and during good
weather ....."

I will scan this and post it in the files section.

Rich Orr



**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family
favorites at AOL Food.
(http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001)


BOX CAR RED- SUGGESTION

Rob Kirkham <rdkirkham@...>
 

Having gone down this path myself using Pantone, Federal Standard and other systems, I found I was able to do more to discuss colour by going down to a paint shop, having them mix a batch of paint matched to a given chip, and then painting it with a roller onto a sheet of cardboard. When dry, I cut out "chips" to mail to friends. The paint matches were never "perfect", of course, but close.

I wonder if there is any appetite (among folks with chips that could be matched) to do likewise. A cost sharing arrangement wouldn't be too onerous.

But like all ideas, it would take willing volunteers. It needn't be a committee or anything. There is no reason any one person couldn't do it ad hoc and offer their efforts to others on this list. It would only have to be enough to pay for the bucket(s) of paint.

Personally, as someone too young to remember what colours PRR or SP or UP or NP or etc used in 1946 I rely on colour photos (with all the caveats that apply). When I read that some printers tweak colour images they publish in books to the point that those who remember say - the colours are too hot - it makes me uneasy. (And yes, I am grateful to those publishers who have different standards and are very careful about how they colour match in their publications, including Signature Press). But while a paint sample matched close enough to a possibly badly stored old paint chip may have many weaknesses, it could sure help me get the feel closer to the real thing.

Rob Kirkham


MILW boxcar

bill davis <billcheri72@...>
 

Hi Guys,
What color red was used on MILW rib side boxcars and what model paint matches it.
BILL


Re: "Boxcar Red"

Rod Miller
 

No, here it is

http://www.shibumi.org/eoti.htm

Rod

timboconnor@... wrote:

Marty
Nope, no one has mentioned nazis yet.
Oh, wait, i just did. So yes, this is the end.
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "cvsne" <mjmcguirk@...>

And, I have to ask - does this mean we have reached the end of the internet??????

Marty
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links


Re: "Boxcar Red"

Tim O'Connor
 

Marty

Nope, no one has mentioned nazis yet.

Oh, wait, i just did. So yes, this is the end.

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "cvsne" <mjmcguirk@...>

And, I have to ask - does this mean we have reached the end of the
internet??????

Marty


Re: BOX CAR RED- SUGGESTION

cvsne <mjmcguirk@...>
 

Thinking the Pantone system would be a quick, efficient way of
communicating the desire color to the factory in China I tried using
it when I was at Intermountain. The results ranged from comical (Ask
Bill about his purple Pullman) to much worse. I finally gave up.
Based on some of the color gaffs I've seen out of Longmont in the last
couple of releases I think they may still be trying to plough this
unfertile ground yet again.

Marty

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