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New file uploaded to STMFC

STMFC@...
 

Hello,

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a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the STMFC
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File : /PRR Freight Car Color/prr fcc paint.bmp
Uploaded by : wulantowag <SUVCWORR@...>
Description :

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wulantowag <SUVCWORR@...>


New file uploaded to STMFC

STMFC@...
 

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the STMFC
group.

File : /prr fcc paint.bmp
Uploaded by : wulantowag <SUVCWORR@...>
Description : PRR Freight Car Color mixing instructions

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/files/prr%20fcc%20paint.bmp

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles

Regards,

wulantowag <SUVCWORR@...>


MILW boxcar -- truck color

Rob Kirkham <rdkirkham@...>
 

Thanks Ed - Duh on my part re brown!

Rob Kirkham

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ed Hawkins" <hawk0621@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2008 11:13 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] MILW boxcar -- truck color


On May 15, 2008, at 12:28 AM, Rob Kirkham wrote:

OK - so would that be anything like Floquil Santa Fe Mineral Red, or
something else?
Rob,
The name Santa Fe used was Mineral Brown. Milwaukee Road used a hue that was decidedly more oxide than what Santa Fe used. A number of years ago I had access to a Boles drift card used by Milwaukee Road dated May 1950. This date is slightly later than the building of the rib-side box cars, but not that much later. The paint sample matched Scalecoat #2 Oxide Red. A second Milwaukee Road drift card dated April 1955 was identical in color. I believe Scalecoat #2 Oxide Red is a reasonably accurate color match for any Milwaukee Road freight car painted after World War II (possibly even during the war) and throughout the 1950s.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins


Boxcar red

armprem
 

Wow!Talk about opening Pandora's box.I didn't exactly expect this
volume of response.To those of us who do not have access to color
photos of specific cars on specific roads,one must seek out color
photos or go by quess and by gosh or fly by the seat of his pants.I
have recently finished two resin car and was basically pleased with the
results.....that is, and until,I happened on color photos of one of the
subject cars.I really missed the target.How does one go about stripping
built resin cars without a sand blaster?Once lettered, the problem
becomes more difficult.I have a few options left,trade it,sell it on
ebay or leave it in the box it came in.If I had been more familiar with
the subject railroad I may have been able to more closely replicate
the color,at least to my own satisfaction.In closing,the instructions
called for finishing the car in the generic "Boxcar Red".I expect to
continue this lengthy,but non heated discussion with Mike Brock when I
return to Florida in the fall.Armand Premo


Re: Double-Deck Wooden Stock Cars

Adrian Hundhausen
 

Paul; There must have been more sophisticated ways of supporting an
upper deck later on, but if you go to:

http://www.youranswerplace.org/services/lhgen/SCcarco/CarCo4.htm

and look at the Mexican Central car, you can clearly see boards
sticking out the side of the car that obviously supported the upper
deck. The catalog there was published in 1895.

Best,
Adrian

--- In STMFC@..., "Paul & Bernice Hillman"
<chris_hillman@...> wrote:

I have John White's, "The American Railroad Freight Car", book,
covering wooden freight cars, "until the coming of steel", but
found
no description of how the upper deck of double-deck stock cars was
supported.

Wikipedia, "Stock Car(Rail)", shows a diagram of, US Patent
106,887,
(C.1890's) by Mr. Zadok Street, where apparently several, vertical-
posts support the upper floor from the lower car-floor.

Was this the "standard" way developed/followed in wooden stock cars
for supporting the upper decking, and also in the supporting of
removeble upper floors? Were there sometimes vertical supports up
to
the roof members?

"2 inch" boards couldn't just be attached to the car-side boards
and
support the "critters" weight in the middle of the car.

I find no photos showing stockcar interiors as how supported.

Trying to do an accurately detailed, double-deck, wooden stock car.

Thanks, Paul Hillman


Archer rivet decals - quick first look

Tom Madden <tgmadden@...>
 

Three sheets of Archer's reworked rivet decals have arrived. The
service was excellent: I ordered them on Sunday, paid immediately by
Pay Pal, and they arrived on Wednesday.

The blurb on the package says "Cast resin on clear decal film - apply
like decals under paint". They have some height, but they are more
like slumped piles than little round domes. They appear to be
stencilled or jetted onto the film and not "printed" per se. To be
truthful, from straight on they remind me of those photos of skin
spots that have turned cancerous - the ones in those "seven warning
signs" ads. I don't have a microphotography setup, but I do have a
high-magnification hand-held comparator which I attempted to use to
measure diameters. That was difficult because they are so irregular.
The 8 mil diameter rivets measure 10 to 12 mils overall, but some of
the excess appears to be outflow from the base.

I suspect they will be fine for 90% of uses, where the model will not
be subjected to extreme close-up viewing. But if you aspire to
Culotta-quality work photographed so an HO car end fills a quarter of
a page in RMC, the lack of roundness might be overly apparent,
depending on how thin that outflow is. Especially if they are mixed
in with molded-on rivets.

Despite these comments I'm happy to have them. They are irregular in
outline but uniform in size. I'm working on a car end beam pattern
which needs grab iron terminations and a few random rivets, for which
they'll be perfect. They should also work on side braces, or in any
other application where they are next to an edge, groove or other
feature where they don't have to stand on their own visually. But
it's asking a bit much to expect them to look as good as molded-on
rivets of the same size in close-up.

Tom Madden


Re: MILW boxcar -- truck color

Ed Hawkins
 

On May 15, 2008, at 12:28 AM, Rob Kirkham wrote:

OK - so would that be anything like Floquil Santa Fe Mineral Red, or
something else?
Rob,
The name Santa Fe used was Mineral Brown. Milwaukee Road used a hue
that was decidedly more oxide than what Santa Fe used. A number of
years ago I had access to a Boles drift card used by Milwaukee Road
dated May 1950. This date is slightly later than the building of the
rib-side box cars, but not that much later. The paint sample matched
Scalecoat #2 Oxide Red. A second Milwaukee Road drift card dated April
1955 was identical in color. I believe Scalecoat #2 Oxide Red is a
reasonably accurate color match for any Milwaukee Road freight car
painted after World War II (possibly even during the war) and
throughout the 1950s.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins


MILW boxcar -- truck color

Rob Kirkham <rdkirkham@...>
 

OK - so would that be anything like Floquil Santa Fe Mineral Red, or something else?

Rob Kirkham

----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Hendrickson" <rhendrickson@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2008 8:20 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: MILW boxcar -- truck color
[snip]

Bill, so far as I've been able to determine, the MILW rib side cars
were painted entirely in mineral red, including the trucks and
underbody, when new. In any event, there are color photos to
document the fact that, when repainted, (as many would have been by
the early 1950s) these cars had mineral red trucks.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: freight car color variations

Richard Hendrickson
 

On May 14, 2008, at 11:29 AM, ed_mines wrote:

Another color that varied was the "reefer yellow" used on SFRD reefers
in the '40s.d

Sometimes it looked as orange as PFE reefers. Sometimes it was
completed devoid of any red. I saw a TV show with an old color film
segment showing an absolutely yellow woodside SFRD reefer with a map.
The other colors looked pretty normal (it looked like the colors
hadn't
deterioated).

Has anyone seen a color photo showing both yellow and orange SFRD
reefers? Sometimes B&W photos show darker and lighter cars together.












Ed, in the few surviving color photos from the late '40s and early
'50s that show numerous SFRD cars in the same train or yard, color
varies widely, not because the cars were painted differently but
because of the usual fading, weathering, and accumulations of grime.
The paint used on the sides of SFRD colors MAY have been lighter and
more yellow in the 1920s, but it was essentially the same yellow-
orange on all cars from the mid-1930s through the 1950s. With the
adoption of the giant herald stenciling scheme beginning in 1959, the
color seems to have shifted to a more orange shade, but that
perception depends on the slides/movies you're looking at, and - of
course - color film reproduction was/is notoriously unreliable as a
guide to actual colors. During the period that's relevant to most
subscribers to this list, the Santa Fe did not change the color of
the paint used on reefer sides (aside from the usual minor variations
from one batch of paint to another).

Richard Hendrickson


Re: MILW boxcar -- truck color

Richard Hendrickson
 

On May 14, 2008, at 5:53 PM, William Keene wrote:

Hello group,

I am in the process of assembling one of the Rib Side Cars kits and
have a rather simple question...
What color were the trucks painted?

I have surfed through some websites and it appears that trucks were
painted black. But... in photos taken during our steam era (black &
white photos) it appears that the trucks are a lighter shade than what
I would consider black. Were the trucks painted the boxcar color in
the early 1950s? Or were these actually black and my old eyes are the
problem?
Bill, so far as I've been able to determine, the MILW rib side cars
were painted entirely in mineral red, including the trucks and
underbody, when new. In any event, there are color photos to
document the fact that, when repainted, (as many would have been by
the early 1950s) these cars had mineral red trucks.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: MILW boxcar

John F. Pautz <jfpautz@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Dean Payne" <1payne1@...> wrote:

--- In STMFC@..., bill davis <billcheri72@> wrote:

Hi Guys,
What color red was used on MILW rib side boxcars and what model
paint matches it.
BILL
BoxCarRed !!??

John F. Pautz
American Switch & Signal
P:48 track components


Re: Freight car colors...

Doug Dolloff
 

Jack wrote:
>I'm confused by the "parts"
reference... .parts suggests volume, not weight
I guess "parts" could pertain to volume. But if one where to add 5 droppers of color A to 20 droppers of color B which would = 25 droppers of color C. No matter the size of different droppers drops, color C would be the same. The other issue with colors is the gloss. If a color chip is semigloss and the paint you are using is high gloss or a matte finish, it will not look the same as the semigloss chip. And to add another factor, if you match a color in fluorescent light and then take the colors into sun light or incandescent light the colors will also appear different. Marty probably can remember this issue back with me in his Longmont days.

Doug

Jack Burgess <jack@...> wrote:
Doug wrote:
The way that paint is mixed is by weighing the different colors.
It is not by a 50/50 or 25/75 ratio. Different paint colors way
different amounts, therefore you may add 5 grams of color A and 20
grams of color B to get color 25 grams of color C. This is how
automotive paint is matched as well as most house paints. You can
use weight ratio like 5 parts part A + 20 parts of B = 25 parts
of color C. That way anyone can use a weight ratio to get the
same color, whether they are using grams, pounds, wheelsets, etc..
Paint pigments weigh different amounts. Typically yellow pigment
paint ways more than blue or black because it takes more pigment
to create yellow than blue or black. Weight is the only way I
know of to accurately tint or change the tint of any color and be
able to recreate the same color later or to tell someone else how
to recreate the same color.
I can't argue that weight is the proper way to establish and document paint
mixing although it would seem that the paint machine at the local hardware
or paint store is using volume to make the resulting paint mixture. It would
seem that using volume would work in this situation if the original paint
chips were originally produced the same way. That aside, when you are mixing
up only 1/2 fluid ounces of paint to paint a box car, I can't see how one
can weigh the ingredients...if you pour the base colors into separate
containers and weigh them and then pour the colors into another container to
attach to the air brush, the paint remaining in the containers will throw
the formula off considerably. Also, I'm confused by the "parts"
reference....parts suggests volume, not weight. But, at this point, the
discussion seems moot, after Tony pointed out a fatal flaw in my approach...

Jack Burgess
www.yosemitevalleyrr.com


Re: Freight car colors...

Jack Burgess <jack@...>
 

Doug wrote:
The way that paint is mixed is by weighing the different colors.
It is not by a 50/50 or 25/75 ratio. Different paint colors way
different amounts, therefore you may add 5 grams of color A and 20
grams of color B to get color 25 grams of color C. This is how
automotive paint is matched as well as most house paints. You can
use weight ratio like 5 parts part A + 20 parts of B = 25 parts
of color C. That way anyone can use a weight ratio to get the
same color, whether they are using grams, pounds, wheelsets, etc..
Paint pigments weigh different amounts. Typically yellow pigment
paint ways more than blue or black because it takes more pigment
to create yellow than blue or black. Weight is the only way I
know of to accurately tint or change the tint of any color and be
able to recreate the same color later or to tell someone else how
to recreate the same color.
I can't argue that weight is the proper way to establish and document paint
mixing although it would seem that the paint machine at the local hardware
or paint store is using volume to make the resulting paint mixture. It would
seem that using volume would work in this situation if the original paint
chips were originally produced the same way. That aside, when you are mixing
up only 1/2 fluid ounces of paint to paint a box car, I can't see how one
can weigh the ingredients...if you pour the base colors into separate
containers and weigh them and then pour the colors into another container to
attach to the air brush, the paint remaining in the containers will throw
the formula off considerably. Also, I'm confused by the "parts"
reference....parts suggests volume, not weight. But, at this point, the
discussion seems moot, after Tony pointed out a fatal flaw in my approach...

Jack Burgess
www.yosemitevalleyrr.com


New S scale kit coming soon

Jim King
 

Following closely behind our popular CofG ventilated boxcar will be the
Southern Ry. 41'6" flat car, built in 1926 and lasting into the mid-1990s in
MofW and ribbon rail train service. This car was the basis for at least 6
other cars, including a 1926 composite gon and 27 transfer cabooses, both of
which will be produced over the next 12 months.



Visit the web site link below to view a prototype pic of this car . go to
the "S Scale" orange icon and pick the page you want to visit from there.
The pilot model is being built now and will be debuted at the Oak Ridge TN
"Blue Ridge "S"calers" meet on 5/31. Kits will start shipping in mid-June.
Order thru our dealers (listed on a separate web page) or direct . be sure
to add appropriate shipping or contact me if you have questions.



In other news, I am tooling 2 trucks: a 100-ton roller bearing and a
"Bettendorf" style. The former will have rotating end caps, a first in our
scale and will be produced ENTIRELY IN THE USA. Both will have
scale-appearing springs and will be equalized. Wheels and axles will be
black-oxided brass. The RB truck will be first because it's needed for the
kit following the SR flat . the Southern Ry. 1974 PS 50 ft "waffle side"
boxcar (other versions for CSX and its predecessors will follow the Southern
car).



Place your order/reservation for the flat car now to hold your kit(s) or
contact your dealer.



Jim King

Smoky Mountain Model Works, Inc.

www.smokymountainmodelworks.com


Re: Freight car colors...

Doug Dolloff
 

The way that paint is mixed is by weighing the different colors. It is not by a 50/50 or 25/75 ratio. Different paint colors way different amounts, therfore you may add 5 grams of color A and 20 grams of color B to get color 25 grams of color C. This is how automotive paint is matched aswell as most house paints. You can use weight ratio like 5 parts part A + 20 parts of B = 25 parts of color C. That way anyone can use a weight ratio to get the same color, wether they are using grams, pounds, wheelsets, etc.. Paint pigments weigh different amounts. Typically yellow pigment paint ways more than blue or black because it takes more pigment to create yellow than blue or black. Weight is the only way I know of to accuratley tint or change the tint of any color and be able to recreate the same color later or to tell someone else how to recreate the same color.

I hope this helps.

Doug
Rob Kirkham <rdkirkham@...> wrote:
Gee that is a creative idea Jack, but unfortunately, I don't think the
electronic mix will give you any useful information. While I'm not really
up on the pigments used in model paints, use of artists paints can be a
revelation. We were all taught in grade school, for example, that red and
yellow make orange, blue and red make purple, etc. But with paints, they do
not always react with each other the way these generalisations suggest they
should. Blue and red do not always make purple - it depends on the
pigments. And those that do mix to purple certainly don't all make the same
purples or make the purple someone new to the pigment might expect. The
result is that the theoretical formulations of colour manifest in light on
your computer screen do not mix in the same way as actual pigments - and so
won't predict the results of the mixes of real pigment.

Rob Kirkham

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Burgess" <jack@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2008 4:11 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Freight car colors...

Mixing paint to match a paint chip, a paint sample, a photo, or memory is,
for me, very difficult. One could obviously prepare 50/50 mixes of all
possible combinations of one manufacturer's paint line but there are also
possible combinations other than 50/50 and 50/25/25 possibilities.

I've given a lot of thought to how that might be done "electronically".
Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find a program to take samples of
paint color and easily "mix" them. However, I have played with the
Gradient
Tool in Photoshop (also available in Photoshop Elements). If one scans
painted samples of two paint colors, such as Floquil Boxcar Red and
Floquil
Tuscan, and open the scans in Photoshop, the Eyedropper Tool can be used
to
load those colors as the Foreground and Background color. The Gradient
Tool
can then be used to "mix" the two colors and produce a 50/50 or 25/75 mix
or
any other proportion electronically. The resulting mixes can be saved as
color swatches and so labeled. By scanning all of the available "reds"
from
one manufacturer, one could produce swatches of all possible variations.
Samples of the prototype colors could also be sampled and compared to the
mixes.

I need to develop a variation of boxcar red to match the YV cabooses I
painted many years ago (unfortunately, I didn't keep track of the
proportions back then) for a project I'm working on. I'm thinking that a
good test for the process would be to mix two reds electronically and also
physically and compare the results.

Has anyone done anything similar? Was it successful?

Jack Burgess
www.yosemitevalleyrr.com


Re: MILW boxcar

Dennis Williams
 

Which is the better, Rib Side or the Sunshine?? Dennis
--- Dean Payne <1payne1@...> wrote:

--- In STMFC@..., bill davis
<billcheri72@...> wrote:

Hi Guys,
What color red was used on MILW rib side boxcars
and what model
paint matches it.
BILL

According to the instructions on my Rib Side Cars
kit, the matching
paint for what they used is Polyscale F404079, Oxide
Red. I do not
know if this is considered the most accurate color
by the experts.
I've heard "� a mixture of Accupaint Oxide Red and
Freight Car Brown"
as well, but I forget the exact source.
Dean Payne


Re: "Boxcar Red"

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Um, yeah, You are correctly right.

SGL

"frequently seen on a variety of freight car types of freight cars in the
railroad industry."

The Department of Redundancy Department?

Jerry Michels


Re: MILW boxcar -- truck color

William Keene <wakeene@...>
 

Hello group,

I am in the process of assembling one of the Rib Side Cars kits and
have a rather simple question...
What color were the trucks painted?

I have surfed through some websites and it appears that trucks were
painted black. But... in photos taken during our steam era (black &
white photos) it appears that the trucks are a lighter shade than what
I would consider black. Were the trucks painted the boxcar color in
the early 1950s? Or were these actually black and my old eyes are the
problem?

Thanks,
-- Bill Keene
Irvine, CA

On May 14, 2008, at 5:12 PM, Dean Payne wrote:

--- In STMFC@..., bill davis <billcheri72@...> wrote:

Hi Guys,
What color red was used on MILW rib side boxcars and what model
paint matches it.
BILL

According to the instructions on my Rib Side Cars kit, the matching
paint for what they used is Polyscale F404079, Oxide Red. I do not
know if this is considered the most accurate color by the experts.
I've heard " a mixture of Accupaint Oxide Red and Freight Car Brown"
as well, but I forget the exact source.
Dean Payne



Re: Freight car colors...

Rob Kirkham <rdkirkham@...>
 

Gee that is a creative idea Jack, but unfortunately, I don't think the electronic mix will give you any useful information. While I'm not really up on the pigments used in model paints, use of artists paints can be a revelation. We were all taught in grade school, for example, that red and yellow make orange, blue and red make purple, etc. But with paints, they do not always react with each other the way these generalisations suggest they should. Blue and red do not always make purple - it depends on the pigments. And those that do mix to purple certainly don't all make the same purples or make the purple someone new to the pigment might expect. The result is that the theoretical formulations of colour manifest in light on your computer screen do not mix in the same way as actual pigments - and so won't predict the results of the mixes of real pigment.

Rob Kirkham

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Burgess" <jack@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2008 4:11 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Freight car colors...


Mixing paint to match a paint chip, a paint sample, a photo, or memory is,
for me, very difficult. One could obviously prepare 50/50 mixes of all
possible combinations of one manufacturer's paint line but there are also
possible combinations other than 50/50 and 50/25/25 possibilities.

I've given a lot of thought to how that might be done "electronically".
Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find a program to take samples of
paint color and easily "mix" them. However, I have played with the Gradient
Tool in Photoshop (also available in Photoshop Elements). If one scans
painted samples of two paint colors, such as Floquil Boxcar Red and Floquil
Tuscan, and open the scans in Photoshop, the Eyedropper Tool can be used to
load those colors as the Foreground and Background color. The Gradient Tool
can then be used to "mix" the two colors and produce a 50/50 or 25/75 mix or
any other proportion electronically. The resulting mixes can be saved as
color swatches and so labeled. By scanning all of the available "reds" from
one manufacturer, one could produce swatches of all possible variations.
Samples of the prototype colors could also be sampled and compared to the
mixes.

I need to develop a variation of boxcar red to match the YV cabooses I
painted many years ago (unfortunately, I didn't keep track of the
proportions back then) for a project I'm working on. I'm thinking that a
good test for the process would be to mix two reds electronically and also
physically and compare the results.

Has anyone done anything similar? Was it successful?

Jack Burgess
www.yosemitevalleyrr.com


Re: MILW boxcar

Dean Payne
 

--- In STMFC@..., bill davis <billcheri72@...> wrote:

Hi Guys,
What color red was used on MILW rib side boxcars and what model
paint matches it.
BILL

According to the instructions on my Rib Side Cars kit, the matching
paint for what they used is Polyscale F404079, Oxide Red. I do not
know if this is considered the most accurate color by the experts.
I've heard "… a mixture of Accupaint Oxide Red and Freight Car Brown"
as well, but I forget the exact source.
Dean Payne

124781 - 124800 of 196982