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Re: Repainting Prototype STMFCs, Three Questions
On Sat, May 17, 2008 9:33 pm, wmcclark1980 wrote:
So my first question is: What happened when freight cars were<snip> when a car was repainted I'm sure they weren'tI have in my possession several pieces of flooring from a PRR X31A box car. This flooring is well covered with a late PRR Freight Car Color (1950s-1960's)paint on the down (out) side and completely devoid of paint on the interior side. The board appears to be long-leaf southern pine, and was installed "heart down" (ring arched up). There is no paint where the stringers were and the wood surface on the painted side is quite smooth, while the interior has minor signs of wear. It would certainly appear that the exterior of the floor on this car was intentionally painted, and not merely subjected to overspray. It is also clear that the wood did not recieve anything like asphaltum in addition to FCC paint. Regards Bruce Bruce Smith Auburn, AL
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New file uploaded to STMFC
STMFC@...
Hello,
This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the STMFC group. File : /EssentialFreightCars42.pdf Uploaded by : rbrennan4 <brennan8@...> Description : Essential Freight Cars #1-42, RMC articles by Ted Culotta You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/files/EssentialFreightCars42.pdf To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles Regards, rbrennan4 <brennan8@...>
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Re: Repainting Prototype STMFCs, Three Questions
Walter M. Clark
--- In STMFC@..., "benjaminfrank_hom" <b.hom@...> wrote:
Sure, Ben, My examples are from Southern Pacific and Pacific Fruit Express, since I model SP. From Tony Thompson's Southern Pacific Freight Cars, Volume 1, Gondolas and Stock Cars, and repeated in the same chapter in each succeeding book, Chapter 2, "Freight Car Basics" has, on page 20, in the section on painting and lettering, "Other. All the other aspects of car lettering, which were dimensional and mechanical data, changed frequently. The MCB, ARA, and AAR all made modifications from time to time in the "recommended practice" for dimensional and other lettering on freight cars, and this was usually reflected in the arrangements and content of lettering on SP cars. It was the MCB in 1909 which first promulgated a standard location for reporting marks, that they be placed on the left-hand portion of the car body. As another example, the 1-inch stripes above the reporting mark and below the car number were an ARA recommendation in February, 1952. In each of these cases, SP lettering was quickly changed in response." Example photos in the same book are on page 22, showing significant differences in location and amount of dimensional and mechanical data in first a photo from 1909-1917, then 1917-1921, and finally (for me) 1921-1946. These three photos were selected for the beginning of each new lettering scheme, but some years had even larger differences, as seen in the book Pacific Fruit Express, when you compare the relatively sparse information lettered on the early wood ice cars, Chapter 4, 1906-1913, to the much greater amount on a photo of PFE 27080, and R-30-12 built in 7-23 and shown at the beginning of chapter 5, "PFE's Roaring Twenties." Compare that too the photo of early R-30-12 PFE 17443, built 8-20, with more data than the early cars and less than a car built only three years later. Time stopped in November 1941 Walter M. Clark Pullman, Washington, USA
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Re: Repainting Prototype STMFCs, Three Questions
benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
Walter M. Clark wrote:
"The third question relates to seemingly annual changes from the A. R. A. and later A. A. R. in what (and where) dimensional and other lettering was painted on cars. When this changed, sometimes quite significantly, how quickly did railroads re-letter their house cars?" Walter, what "seemingly annual changes" to the lettering guidelines are you referring to? Care to cite some examples? Ben Hom
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Repainting Prototype STMFCs, Three Questions
Walter M. Clark
All the talk about "Box Car Red" got me to thinking about a few things
I've been wondering about. Way back in message 19373, May 22, 2003, I asked about the unpainted floor boards of box cars. To save everyone from having to go back I referenced a photo on pg. 34 in RPCyc Vol 3, showing the underside of a Reading box car with the steel frame members coated in car cement and the floor boards unpainted, natural wood. It was established by both the photo caption and the ensuing discussion that most house cars received unpainted wood floor boards at construction. Further discussion in later threads established that most gondolas and flat cars (at least into the 1950s) were also built with untreated floor boards. So my first question is: What happened when freight cars were repainted? Not just relating to the floor boards, but how, and how well, were the painted surfaces prepared? I'm sure that the accepted wisdom changed over time, and that not a lot was done during the Depression, but generally how was it done? Then the related follow-up IS about floor boards: when a car was repainted I'm sure they weren't too careful to keep the paint off the underside of the floor boards. Would they have been very successful? As in, a super detailed car, as has been done by Jack Spencer, is painted to replicate unpainted wood floor boards. After repainting, would it be appropriate to have most of the wood floor boards still natural, albeit weathered, wood, or would it be better to have little, or none, of the floor remain unpainted? The third question relates to seemingly annual changes from the A. R. A. and later A. A. R. in what (and where) dimensional and other lettering was painted on cars. When this changed, sometimes quite significantly, how quickly did railroads re-letter their house cars? When they did, if the car didn't need a complete repaint, did they just do an extra-large "patch panel" as we see so many times relative to re-weigh and re-pack information? I've looked through about a dozen railroad books I have and can't find anything looking like a "patch and re-paint," but am having trouble believing the railroads would have repainted the entire car just to update the dimensional lettering. TIA, Time stopped in November 1941 Walter M. Clark Pullman, Washington, USA
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Re: Boxcar red.. a suggestion...
Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
Wow! This is quite an in-depth work, and he does make some very good
points. Steve Lucas. --- In STMFC@..., "gossport43" <gossport43@...> wrote: http://www.thenrg.org/resources_shopnotes.html?redirect=7 and click on the subject "Paint and Colors for American Merchant Vessels, 1800-1920: Their Study and Interpretation for Modelmaking" by Ronnberg. There is a lot of great technical information that is applicable here and some of the paint chips shown could work for railroading.
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Re: Weathering of loads
Charlie Ake <icrr2@...>
Without attempting to get another thread of "what color is what" started. Your point is well taken. Just thought that by taking green bananas home one could match or come reasonably close to an acceptable shade of the green that one wanted.
I'll say no more as there is no more to be said on this. Charles A. " EAT MO' 'NANNERS!"
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Re: Weathering of loads
thomas christensen
--- Paul Catapano <pc66ot@...> wrote
Which got me to thinking about lumber loads, freshIt depends on your definition of "weathering", the coloring or texture of wood as it ages. For a good bit of the 1970's I worked at a lumber company in Clearwater Fl. We frequently received flat car loads of unwrapped spruce(1x and 2x) and pine(1x, 2x, and timbers of 4x and larger) from western Canada and the northwest U.S. The color of the exposed wood was rarely the fresh cut look. The spruce was anywhere from a creamy tan to light brown to medium gray. The pine was anywhere from a pale yellow to orange/brown to medium gray. In case of long time runner(a car shipped from the mill with no buyer)that had been out a month or more, the lumber would be a dark gray, almost black. But the texture(grain) would still be the smooth fresh cut board. Here are some examples. On CP 316011 comapare the wood bracing(which would have been fresh at the mill) and the different parts of the exposed load. http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/cp/cp303641ajs.jpg http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/cp/cp316011akg.jpg http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/cp/cp316051akg.jpg Thomas Christensen
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Re: Boxcar red.. a suggestion...
Richard Hendrickson
Schuyler Larrabee, after appropriately excoriating previous NMRA Defenders of the NMRA's role in setting standards inevitably refer to the formulation of DCC standards - inevitably, because that's the ONLY effective standard-setting the NMRA has done in recent memory (and even that effort is not universally well regarded). Almost all of the other NMRA standards (and all of the important ones) were established a half-century ago, and many are desperately in need of revision. Meanwhile, new de facto standards have emerged for wheels, couplers, etc. because the NMRA has been unable or unwilling to address the changes that have been, and continue to be, taking place in the hobby. Every few years, a new NMRA standards committee chair is appointed and there is an announcement, accompanied by considerable fanfare, that the committee is finally going to get its ass in gear. Does anything even remotely constructive result? As the French say, it is to laugh. At this point, even in the unlikely event that the standards committee would begin to actually update the standards, its credibility is so close to zero that neither serious hobbyists nor manufacturers would be likely to pay the slightest attention. Schuyler is doubtless right that the current NMRA officers mean well, However, like Tony Thompson, I suspect the organization is so far gone that it may not be possible to resurrect it at all, and certainly not to the point where it will once again have the authority to define standards. Where does that leave us? Increasingly, with what Schuyler aptly describes as a "balkanized hobby." Perhaps the solution is some sort of new super-organization composed of historical societies and prototype modelers' groups – exactly what the NMRA could (and should) have made itself into twenty or so years ago, instead of trying to marginalize the modelers at the core of the hobby as being merely members of "special interest groups" and, worse, regarding the SIGs as a threat to what was apparently seen as the NMRA's main purpose, i.e. to serve as a kind of Elks Club for aging toy train buffs. Richard Hendrickson [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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P&WV "Symbol of Service" paint scheme
Paul Lyons
I?have just about?completed one of the Speedwitch Pittsburg & West Virginia ARR boxcar (series #1200-1299)?kits and need a little paint documention help. Does anyone know the exact month and year that these cars first recieved their all black paint job with the "Symbol of Service" lettering? ?The two photos of this scheme in the instruction sheets seems to indicate early 1954.?I am fudging on the the year?I model and would like to keep it as close as possible.
Any and all help is always appreicated. Paul Lyons Laguna Niguel, CA
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Re: Boxcar red.. a suggestion...
Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
Schuyler Larrabee wrote:
But, the NMRA has provided a major service to the hobby . . .Correct use of the past tense here, Schuyler. NMRA isn't perfec, and it's been mismanaged in the past, but the current administration is doing what it can to rectify the mismanagement of the previous people in charge.No, it sure isn't "perfec" and one wonders whether the effort is too little, too late. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroad history
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Re: Boxcar red.. a suggestion...
Schuyler Larrabee
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
-----Original Message----- This is very good news, given that the NMRA seems to fading away likeThis isn't about freight cars, much, but I do want to say something about the NMRA here. I am personally acquainted with one member of the current leadership, and through that person, have met a few of the others. The current leadership does not deserve the quotation marks. But they have the thankless task of cleaning up and rectifying the situation left behind by the previous "leadership," which truly did deserve the quotation marks. Pillage and plunder may not be excessive terms to describe the previous two or three administrations. And I do mean financial misdealing to the seeming personal profit of those officers. The NMRA may have been terminally damaged by the mishandling by the previous administrations, and the increasing tendency for people >not< to join organizations like it. With the internet, much of the information which was gained by membership in a group such as the NMRA is now freely available on line, including from the NMRA itself. There is a level there of shooting oneself in the foot, but if there is NO internet presence, then there is the danger of becoming irrelevant because no one knows you're there. Also, there is the specialization factor. While Model Railroader introduces us all (and to be fair, the newbies to the hobby) to Model Railroading every November through February, overlapping at the end with the promotion of the next NMRA National, the websites for all the individual RR Historical Societies, and their publications, serve to provide exactly what the hobbyist who's found a specific interest, whether for years or for the purposes of the model they're building today, with >exactly< what they want, right now. But, the NMRA has provided a major service to the hobby, whether it survives or not: the establishment of standards. Imagine what DCC would be like if there had been no engineering promulgated (done by volunteers) to set standards of interoperability. We'd have six or seven different systems, none or only a few of which would work with each other. But going back further with this standards thread, we have track dimensions which >work<. We have other standards which work<. Without that work and effort, we'd have a balkanized hobby.Some of the standards seem slightly odd, for example the decree that HO is 1:87, which is at odd with the standard of 3.5Mmm = 1'-0" If you use the latter, then it's not 1:87, but 1:87.086. So what, you ask? Figure out the length of a 85' passenger car by each proportion, and you will see "so what." NMRA isn't perfec, and it's been mismanaged in the past, but the current administration is doing what it can to rectify the mismanagement of the previous people in charge. SGL
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Re: Boxcar red.. a suggestion...
Richard Hendrickson
On May 16, 2008, at 11:18 PM, Anthony Thompson wrote:
Rob Kirkham wrote:- find an organisation with a longer life than us humans - the NMRAThere are several railroad museums far more serious than is the This is very good news, given that the NMRA seems to fading away like the Cheshire cat, with membership diminishing steadily and its "leadership" apparently without a clue about how to reverse the trend. The holdings in the Kalmbach library are about all the NMRA has left that's of interest to serious prototype modelers, which is why so many of us are no longer members. So it's good to know that an arrangement has been made to preserve them and continue making them available for research. Richard Hendrickson
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Re: Accurail gon
Richard Hendrickson
On May 17, 2008, at 9:32 AM, Mark Mathu wrote:
What is the capacity of the prototype AAR gondola? 1840 cu ft? The ACL class K10 design as built by Bethlehem was 1840 cu. ft. Copies built for other RRs sometimes varied slightly, depending on design variations and differences in the way their owners calculated dimensions for the ORER entries. Richard Hendrickson
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Boxcar red.. a suggestion...
Rob Kirkham <rdkirkham@...>
Sanguine - nice pun Denny. Very apropos!
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Rob Kirkham
----- Original Message -----
From: "Denny Anspach" <danspach@...> To: <STMFC@...> Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2008 9:58 AM Subject: [STMFC] Re: Boxcar red.. a suggestion... As someone who has been a lurker on this continuing subject thread over the many years (and pretty sanguine in doing so-), I will say that corporately we have moved a very long way to understanding and accepting of just how inexactly color is perceived or can be transmitted; along with the toleration of the wider color/shade margins of acceptance that comes right along with it.
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Re: Boxcar red.. a suggestion...
Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
As someone who has been a lurker on this continuing subject thread over the many years (and pretty sanguine in doing so-), I will say that corporately we have moved a very long way to understanding and accepting of just how inexactly color is perceived or can be transmitted; along with the toleration of the wider color/shade margins of acceptance that comes right along with it.
The character of the same conversation such as this a few year ago would have resulted in half the members of the list either already banned, or at the very least, put in "moderator's jail"! I commend the members of this list in leading the way. Denny Denny S. Anspach MD Sacramento
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Re: Banana xfers
Were the bananas ever handled in express reefers on
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
passenger trains, the way many fresh fruit crops were? Tim O'Connor
At 5/17/2008 11:55 AM Saturday, you wrote:
Hi Clark,
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Re: Truck painting (was Re: MILW boxcar -- truck color)
Is the grit blaster to give the plastic some "tooth" so that a wash orGene Richard already answered you, but I will add that as an SP modeler, trucks are required to be painted body color -- an SP practice that lasted well into the 1960's. Grit blasting is the only way to get paint to really stick well to delrin. Tim O'Connor
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Re: Accurail gon
Mark Mathu
Richard Hendrickson wrote:
The Accurail model represents the AAR Recommended Practicesteel gondolas at all, had them built to other designs. What is the capacity of the prototype AAR gondola? 1840 cu ft? ____ Mark Mathu Whitefish Bay, Wis.
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Re: Weathering of loads
cj riley <cjriley42@...>
--- On Sat, 5/17/08, Charlie Ake <icrr2@...> wrote:
From: Charlie Ake <icrr2@...> Do I dare point out that the green at the store will differ from it's appearance under layout lighting? <vbg> CJ Riley
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