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Re: Repainting Prototype STMFCs, Three Questions

Bruce Smith
 

On Sat, May 17, 2008 9:33 pm, wmcclark1980 wrote:
So my first question is: What happened when freight cars were
repainted?
<snip>
when a car was repainted I'm sure they weren't
too careful to keep the paint off the underside of the floor boards.
Would they have been very successful?
I have in my possession several pieces of flooring from a PRR X31A box
car. This flooring is well covered with a late PRR Freight Car Color
(1950s-1960's)paint on the down (out) side and completely devoid of paint
on the interior side. The board appears to be long-leaf southern pine,
and was installed "heart down" (ring arched up). There is no paint where
the stringers were and the wood surface on the painted side is quite
smooth, while the interior has minor signs of wear. It would certainly
appear that the exterior of the floor on this car was intentionally
painted, and not merely subjected to overspray. It is also clear that the
wood did not recieve anything like asphaltum in addition to FCC paint.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


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Re: Repainting Prototype STMFCs, Three Questions

Walter M. Clark
 

--- In STMFC@..., "benjaminfrank_hom" <b.hom@...> wrote:

Walter M. Clark wrote:
"The third question relates to seemingly annual changes from the A. R.
A. and later A. A. R. in what (and where) dimensional and other
lettering was painted on cars. When this changed, sometimes quite
significantly, how quickly did railroads re-letter their house cars?"

Walter, what "seemingly annual changes" to the lettering guidelines are
you referring to? Care to cite some examples?

Ben Hom
Sure, Ben,

My examples are from Southern Pacific and Pacific Fruit Express, since
I model SP.

From Tony Thompson's Southern Pacific Freight Cars, Volume 1, Gondolas
and Stock Cars, and repeated in the same chapter in each succeeding
book, Chapter 2, "Freight Car Basics" has, on page 20, in the section
on painting and lettering, "Other. All the other aspects of car
lettering, which were dimensional and mechanical data, changed
frequently. The MCB, ARA, and AAR all made modifications from time to
time in the "recommended practice" for dimensional and other lettering
on freight cars, and this was usually reflected in the arrangements
and content of lettering on SP cars.

It was the MCB in 1909 which first promulgated a standard location for
reporting marks, that they be placed on the left-hand portion of the
car body. As another example, the 1-inch stripes above the reporting
mark and below the car number were an ARA recommendation in February,
1952. In each of these cases, SP lettering was quickly changed in
response."

Example photos in the same book are on page 22, showing significant
differences in location and amount of dimensional and mechanical data
in first a photo from 1909-1917, then 1917-1921, and finally (for me)
1921-1946. These three photos were selected for the beginning of each
new lettering scheme, but some years had even larger differences, as
seen in the book Pacific Fruit Express, when you compare the
relatively sparse information lettered on the early wood ice cars,
Chapter 4, 1906-1913, to the much greater amount on a photo of PFE
27080, and R-30-12 built in 7-23 and shown at the beginning of chapter
5, "PFE's Roaring Twenties." Compare that too the photo of early
R-30-12 PFE 17443, built 8-20, with more data than the early cars and
less than a car built only three years later.

Time stopped in November 1941
Walter M. Clark
Pullman, Washington, USA


Re: Repainting Prototype STMFCs, Three Questions

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Walter M. Clark wrote:
"The third question relates to seemingly annual changes from the A. R.
A. and later A. A. R. in what (and where) dimensional and other
lettering was painted on cars. When this changed, sometimes quite
significantly, how quickly did railroads re-letter their house cars?"

Walter, what "seemingly annual changes" to the lettering guidelines are
you referring to? Care to cite some examples?

Ben Hom


Repainting Prototype STMFCs, Three Questions

Walter M. Clark
 

All the talk about "Box Car Red" got me to thinking about a few things
I've been wondering about. Way back in message 19373, May 22, 2003, I
asked about the unpainted floor boards of box cars. To save everyone
from having to go back I referenced a photo on pg. 34 in RPCyc Vol 3,
showing the underside of a Reading box car with the steel frame
members coated in car cement and the floor boards unpainted, natural
wood. It was established by both the photo caption and the ensuing
discussion that most house cars received unpainted wood floor boards
at construction. Further discussion in later threads established that
most gondolas and flat cars (at least into the 1950s) were also built
with untreated floor boards.

So my first question is: What happened when freight cars were
repainted? Not just relating to the floor boards, but how, and how
well, were the painted surfaces prepared? I'm sure that the accepted
wisdom changed over time, and that not a lot was done during the
Depression, but generally how was it done? Then the related follow-up
IS about floor boards: when a car was repainted I'm sure they weren't
too careful to keep the paint off the underside of the floor boards.
Would they have been very successful? As in, a super detailed car, as
has been done by Jack Spencer, is painted to replicate unpainted wood
floor boards. After repainting, would it be appropriate to have most
of the wood floor boards still natural, albeit weathered, wood, or
would it be better to have little, or none, of the floor remain unpainted?

The third question relates to seemingly annual changes from the A. R.
A. and later A. A. R. in what (and where) dimensional and other
lettering was painted on cars. When this changed, sometimes quite
significantly, how quickly did railroads re-letter their house cars?
When they did, if the car didn't need a complete repaint, did they
just do an extra-large "patch panel" as we see so many times relative
to re-weigh and re-pack information? I've looked through about a
dozen railroad books I have and can't find anything looking like a
"patch and re-paint," but am having trouble believing the railroads
would have repainted the entire car just to update the dimensional
lettering.

TIA,

Time stopped in November 1941
Walter M. Clark
Pullman, Washington, USA


Re: Boxcar red.. a suggestion...

Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
 

Wow! This is quite an in-depth work, and he does make some very good
points.

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@..., "gossport43" <gossport43@...> wrote:

May I make a suggestion? Visit the Nautical Research Guild website
http://www.thenrg.org/resources_shopnotes.html?redirect=7 and click on
the subject "Paint and Colors for American Merchant Vessels, 1800-1920:
Their Study and Interpretation for Modelmaking" by Ronnberg. There is
a lot of great technical information that is applicable here and some
of the paint chips shown could work for railroading.

Thanks,
Will Gossett



Re: Weathering of loads

Charlie Ake <icrr2@...>
 

Without attempting to get another thread of "what color is what" started. Your point is well taken. Just thought that by taking green bananas home one could match or come reasonably close to an acceptable shade of the green that one wanted.
I'll say no more as there is no more to be said on this. Charles A. " EAT MO' 'NANNERS!"


Re: Weathering of loads

thomas christensen
 

--- Paul Catapano <pc66ot@...> wrote

Which got me to thinking about lumber loads, fresh
cut, unwraped lumber.
Should it be weathered?
Does it depend on the modeled "location" in the
country? The "suposed" distance from the point of
loading?
I'm serious, I weather the flat car but keep the
lumber "clean".
It depends on your definition of "weathering", the
coloring or texture of wood as it ages.
For a good bit of the 1970's I worked at a lumber
company in Clearwater Fl. We frequently received flat
car loads of unwrapped spruce(1x and 2x) and pine(1x,
2x, and timbers of 4x and larger) from western Canada
and the northwest U.S. The color of the exposed wood
was rarely the fresh cut look. The spruce was anywhere
from a creamy tan to light brown to medium gray. The
pine was anywhere from a pale yellow to orange/brown
to medium gray. In case of long time runner(a car
shipped from the mill with no buyer)that had been out
a month or more, the lumber would be a dark gray,
almost black. But the texture(grain) would still be
the smooth fresh cut board.
Here are some examples. On CP 316011 comapare the
wood bracing(which would have been fresh at the mill)
and the different parts of the exposed load.
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/cp/cp303641ajs.jpg
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/cp/cp316011akg.jpg
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/cp/cp316051akg.jpg

Thomas Christensen


Re: Boxcar red.. a suggestion...

Richard Hendrickson
 

Schuyler Larrabee, after appropriately excoriating previous NMRA
officers but defending current ones, writes:

But, the NMRA has provided a major service to the hobby, whether it
survives or not: the
establishment of standards. Imagine what DCC would be like if there
had been no engineering
promulgated (done by volunteers) to set standards of
interoperability. We'd have six or seven
different systems, none or only a few of which would work with each
other. But going back further
with this standards thread, we have track dimensions which >work<.
We have other standards which
work<. Without that work and effort, we'd have a balkanized hobby.















Defenders of the NMRA's role in setting standards inevitably refer to
the formulation of DCC standards - inevitably, because that's the
ONLY effective standard-setting the NMRA has done in recent memory
(and even that effort is not universally well regarded). Almost all
of the other NMRA standards (and all of the important ones) were
established a half-century ago, and many are desperately in need of
revision. Meanwhile, new de facto standards have emerged for wheels,
couplers, etc. because the NMRA has been unable or unwilling to
address the changes that have been, and continue to be, taking place
in the hobby. Every few years, a new NMRA standards committee chair
is appointed and there is an announcement, accompanied by
considerable fanfare, that the committee is finally going to get its
ass in gear. Does anything even remotely constructive result? As
the French say, it is to laugh. At this point, even in the unlikely
event that the standards committee would begin to actually update the
standards, its credibility is so close to zero that neither serious
hobbyists nor manufacturers would be likely to pay the slightest
attention.

Schuyler is doubtless right that the current NMRA officers mean
well, However, like Tony Thompson, I suspect the organization is so
far gone that it may not be possible to resurrect it at all, and
certainly not to the point where it will once again have the
authority to define standards. Where does that leave us?
Increasingly, with what Schuyler aptly describes as a "balkanized
hobby." Perhaps the solution is some sort of new super-organization
composed of historical societies and prototype modelers' groups
exactly what the NMRA could (and should) have made itself into twenty
or so years ago, instead of trying to marginalize the modelers at the
core of the hobby as being merely members of "special interest
groups" and, worse, regarding the SIGs as a threat to what was
apparently seen as the NMRA's main purpose, i.e. to serve as a kind
of Elks Club for aging toy train buffs.

Richard Hendrickson



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


P&WV "Symbol of Service" paint scheme

Paul Lyons
 

I?have just about?completed one of the Speedwitch Pittsburg & West Virginia ARR boxcar (series #1200-1299)?kits and need a little paint documention help. Does anyone know the exact month and year that these cars first recieved their all black paint job with the "Symbol of Service" lettering? ?The two photos of this scheme in the instruction sheets seems to indicate early 1954.?I am fudging on the the year?I model and would like to keep it as close as possible.

Any and all help is always appreicated.

Paul Lyons
Laguna Niguel, CA


Re: Boxcar red.. a suggestion...

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Schuyler Larrabee wrote:
But, the NMRA has provided a major service to the hobby . . .
Correct use of the past tense here, Schuyler.

NMRA isn't perfec, and it's been mismanaged in the past, but the current administration is doing what it can to rectify the mismanagement of the previous people in charge.
No, it sure isn't "perfec" and one wonders whether the effort is too little, too late.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Boxcar red.. a suggestion...

Schuyler Larrabee
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Hendrickson
This is very good news, given that the NMRA seems to fading away like
the Cheshire cat, with membership diminishing steadily and its
"leadership" apparently without a clue about how to reverse the
trend.
This isn't about freight cars, much, but I do want to say something about the NMRA here. I am
personally acquainted with one member of the current leadership, and through that person, have met a
few of the others. The current leadership does not deserve the quotation marks. But they have the
thankless task of cleaning up and rectifying the situation left behind by the previous "leadership,"
which truly did deserve the quotation marks. Pillage and plunder may not be excessive terms to
describe the previous two or three administrations. And I do mean financial misdealing to the
seeming personal profit of those officers.

The NMRA may have been terminally damaged by the mishandling by the previous administrations, and
the increasing tendency for people >not< to join organizations like it. With the internet, much of
the information which was gained by membership in a group such as the NMRA is now freely available
on line, including from the NMRA itself. There is a level there of shooting oneself in the foot,
but if there is NO internet presence, then there is the danger of becoming irrelevant because no one
knows you're there. Also, there is the specialization factor. While Model Railroader introduces us
all (and to be fair, the newbies to the hobby) to Model Railroading every November through February,
overlapping at the end with the promotion of the next NMRA National, the websites for all the
individual RR Historical Societies, and their publications, serve to provide exactly what the
hobbyist who's found a specific interest, whether for years or for the purposes of the model they're
building today, with >exactly< what they want, right now.

But, the NMRA has provided a major service to the hobby, whether it survives or not: the
establishment of standards. Imagine what DCC would be like if there had been no engineering
promulgated (done by volunteers) to set standards of interoperability. We'd have six or seven
different systems, none or only a few of which would work with each other. But going back further
with this standards thread, we have track dimensions which >work<. We have other standards which
work<. Without that work and effort, we'd have a balkanized hobby.
Some of the standards seem slightly odd, for example the decree that HO is 1:87, which is at odd
with the standard of 3.5Mmm = 1'-0" If you use the latter, then it's not 1:87, but 1:87.086. So
what, you ask? Figure out the length of a 85' passenger car by each proportion, and you will see
"so what."

NMRA isn't perfec, and it's been mismanaged in the past, but the current administration is doing
what it can to rectify the mismanagement of the previous people in charge.

SGL


Re: Boxcar red.. a suggestion...

Richard Hendrickson
 

On May 16, 2008, at 11:18 PM, Anthony Thompson wrote:

Rob Kirkham wrote:
- find an organisation with a longer life than us humans - the NMRA
does seem a reasonable idea to me, though I don't know whether they
are keen to take on this sort of archival role.
There are several railroad museums far more serious than is the
NMRA, and also are likely longer lived, not to mention adequately
curated. The California State Railroad Museum is only one (and
incidentally they have reached an agreement in principal to receive
the
NMRA library one of these days).











This is very good news, given that the NMRA seems to fading away like
the Cheshire cat, with membership diminishing steadily and its
"leadership" apparently without a clue about how to reverse the
trend. The holdings in the Kalmbach library are about all the NMRA
has left that's of interest to serious prototype modelers, which is
why so many of us are no longer members. So it's good to know that
an arrangement has been made to preserve them and continue making
them available for research.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Accurail gon

Richard Hendrickson
 

On May 17, 2008, at 9:32 AM, Mark Mathu wrote:

What is the capacity of the prototype AAR gondola? 1840 cu ft?

The ACL class K10 design as built by Bethlehem was 1840 cu. ft.
Copies built for other RRs sometimes varied slightly, depending on
design variations and differences in the way their owners calculated
dimensions for the ORER entries.

Richard Hendrickson


Boxcar red.. a suggestion...

Rob Kirkham <rdkirkham@...>
 

Sanguine - nice pun Denny. Very apropos!

Rob Kirkham

----- Original Message -----
From: "Denny Anspach" <danspach@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2008 9:58 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Boxcar red.. a suggestion...


As someone who has been a lurker on this continuing subject thread over the many years (and pretty sanguine in doing so-), I will say that corporately we have moved a very long way to understanding and accepting of just how inexactly color is perceived or can be transmitted; along with the toleration of the wider color/shade margins of acceptance that comes right along with it.
The character of the same conversation such as this a few year ago would have resulted in half the members of the list either already banned, or at the very least, put in "moderator's jail"!
I commend the members of this list in leading the way.
Denny
Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento


Re: Boxcar red.. a suggestion...

Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
 

As someone who has been a lurker on this continuing subject thread over the many years (and pretty sanguine in doing so-), I will say that corporately we have moved a very long way to understanding and accepting of just how inexactly color is perceived or can be transmitted; along with the toleration of the wider color/shade margins of acceptance that comes right along with it.

The character of the same conversation such as this a few year ago would have resulted in half the members of the list either already banned, or at the very least, put in "moderator's jail"!

I commend the members of this list in leading the way.

Denny


Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento


Re: Banana xfers

Tim O'Connor
 

Were the bananas ever handled in express reefers on
passenger trains, the way many fresh fruit crops were?

Tim O'Connor

At 5/17/2008 11:55 AM Saturday, you wrote:
Hi Clark,
East Dubuque, Ill. (and prior to that Dubuque, Iowa) was where IC
banana trains were split between Milw, CBQ and CGW and the IC. I was
told the Milwaukee ran a extra train for as few as 6 cars of
bananas. The cars were of top priority for all the roads.
Ted


Re: Truck painting (was Re: MILW boxcar -- truck color)

Tim O'Connor
 

Is the grit blaster to give the plastic some "tooth" so that a wash or
paint adhers better or does grit blasting change the color and/or
texture of the final result?
Gene Green
Gene
Richard already answered you, but I will add that as an SP
modeler, trucks are required to be painted body color -- an
SP practice that lasted well into the 1960's. Grit blasting
is the only way to get paint to really stick well to delrin.
Tim O'Connor


Re: Accurail gon

Mark Mathu
 

Richard Hendrickson wrote:

The Accurail model represents the AAR Recommended Practice
design adopted in 1941 and first built for the Atlantic Coast
Line; drawings and a photo are in the 1943 and 1946 Car
Builders' Cyclopedias. Beginning in 1944, a few railroads
ordered new cars of this design, notably the GM&O and P&WV,
and the D&RGW received a bunch by federal mandate which they
didn't want and which they sold as soon as the war ended to
the Alaska RR. In addition, the C&NW bought a whole bunch of
beefed-up 70 ton versions. (All of these postwar cars had
Improved Dreadnaught ends with the small ribs extending all
the way across the car, in contrast to the prewar ends which,
I assume, are on the model). As this was the least popular of
the WW-II-era AAR Recommended Practice freight cars, however,
most other RRs in the '40s and '50s, if they bought high side > 40'
steel gondolas at all, had them built to other designs.


What is the capacity of the prototype AAR gondola? 1840 cu ft?

____
Mark Mathu
Whitefish Bay, Wis.


Re: Weathering of loads

cj riley <cjriley42@...>
 

--- On Sat, 5/17/08, Charlie Ake <icrr2@...> wrote:

From: Charlie Ake <icrr2@...>
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Weathering of loads
To: STMFC@...
Date: Saturday, May 17, 2008, 5:56 AM
One easy way to find out the correct shade of banana green
is to go to the
grocery store and look at them there. Sometimes, at my
local Wal-Mart, they
have green bananas on the shelf. Charles A.

Do I dare point out that the green at the store will differ from it's appearance under layout lighting? <vbg>

CJ Riley

122361 - 122380 of 194668