Date   

Re: Boxcar red.. a suggestion...

Richard Hendrickson
 

Schuyler Larrabee, after appropriately excoriating previous NMRA
officers but defending current ones, writes:

But, the NMRA has provided a major service to the hobby, whether it
survives or not: the
establishment of standards. Imagine what DCC would be like if there
had been no engineering
promulgated (done by volunteers) to set standards of
interoperability. We'd have six or seven
different systems, none or only a few of which would work with each
other. But going back further
with this standards thread, we have track dimensions which >work<.
We have other standards which
work<. Without that work and effort, we'd have a balkanized hobby.















Defenders of the NMRA's role in setting standards inevitably refer to
the formulation of DCC standards - inevitably, because that's the
ONLY effective standard-setting the NMRA has done in recent memory
(and even that effort is not universally well regarded). Almost all
of the other NMRA standards (and all of the important ones) were
established a half-century ago, and many are desperately in need of
revision. Meanwhile, new de facto standards have emerged for wheels,
couplers, etc. because the NMRA has been unable or unwilling to
address the changes that have been, and continue to be, taking place
in the hobby. Every few years, a new NMRA standards committee chair
is appointed and there is an announcement, accompanied by
considerable fanfare, that the committee is finally going to get its
ass in gear. Does anything even remotely constructive result? As
the French say, it is to laugh. At this point, even in the unlikely
event that the standards committee would begin to actually update the
standards, its credibility is so close to zero that neither serious
hobbyists nor manufacturers would be likely to pay the slightest
attention.

Schuyler is doubtless right that the current NMRA officers mean
well, However, like Tony Thompson, I suspect the organization is so
far gone that it may not be possible to resurrect it at all, and
certainly not to the point where it will once again have the
authority to define standards. Where does that leave us?
Increasingly, with what Schuyler aptly describes as a "balkanized
hobby." Perhaps the solution is some sort of new super-organization
composed of historical societies and prototype modelers' groups Ė
exactly what the NMRA could (and should) have made itself into twenty
or so years ago, instead of trying to marginalize the modelers at the
core of the hobby as being merely members of "special interest
groups" and, worse, regarding the SIGs as a threat to what was
apparently seen as the NMRA's main purpose, i.e. to serve as a kind
of Elks Club for aging toy train buffs.

Richard Hendrickson



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


P&WV "Symbol of Service" paint scheme

Paul Lyons
 

I?have just about?completed one of the Speedwitch Pittsburg & West Virginia ARR boxcar (series #1200-1299)?kits and need a little paint documention help. Does anyone know the exact month and year that these cars first recieved their all black paint job with the "Symbol of Service" lettering? ?The two photos of this scheme in the instruction sheets seems to indicate early 1954.?I am fudging on the the year?I model and would like to keep it as close as possible.

Any and all help is always appreicated.

Paul Lyons
Laguna Niguel, CA


Re: Boxcar red.. a suggestion...

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Schuyler Larrabee wrote:
But, the NMRA has provided a major service to the hobby . . .
Correct use of the past tense here, Schuyler.

NMRA isn't perfec, and it's been mismanaged in the past, but the current administration is doing what it can to rectify the mismanagement of the previous people in charge.
No, it sure isn't "perfec" and one wonders whether the effort is too little, too late.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Boxcar red.. a suggestion...

Schuyler Larrabee
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Hendrickson
This is very good news, given that the NMRA seems to fading away like
the Cheshire cat, with membership diminishing steadily and its
"leadership" apparently without a clue about how to reverse the
trend.
This isn't about freight cars, much, but I do want to say something about the NMRA here. I am
personally acquainted with one member of the current leadership, and through that person, have met a
few of the others. The current leadership does not deserve the quotation marks. But they have the
thankless task of cleaning up and rectifying the situation left behind by the previous "leadership,"
which truly did deserve the quotation marks. Pillage and plunder may not be excessive terms to
describe the previous two or three administrations. And I do mean financial misdealing to the
seeming personal profit of those officers.

The NMRA may have been terminally damaged by the mishandling by the previous administrations, and
the increasing tendency for people >not< to join organizations like it. With the internet, much of
the information which was gained by membership in a group such as the NMRA is now freely available
on line, including from the NMRA itself. There is a level there of shooting oneself in the foot,
but if there is NO internet presence, then there is the danger of becoming irrelevant because no one
knows you're there. Also, there is the specialization factor. While Model Railroader introduces us
all (and to be fair, the newbies to the hobby) to Model Railroading every November through February,
overlapping at the end with the promotion of the next NMRA National, the websites for all the
individual RR Historical Societies, and their publications, serve to provide exactly what the
hobbyist who's found a specific interest, whether for years or for the purposes of the model they're
building today, with >exactly< what they want, right now.

But, the NMRA has provided a major service to the hobby, whether it survives or not: the
establishment of standards. Imagine what DCC would be like if there had been no engineering
promulgated (done by volunteers) to set standards of interoperability. We'd have six or seven
different systems, none or only a few of which would work with each other. But going back further
with this standards thread, we have track dimensions which >work<. We have other standards which
work<. Without that work and effort, we'd have a balkanized hobby.
Some of the standards seem slightly odd, for example the decree that HO is 1:87, which is at odd
with the standard of 3.5Mmm = 1'-0" If you use the latter, then it's not 1:87, but 1:87.086. So
what, you ask? Figure out the length of a 85' passenger car by each proportion, and you will see
"so what."

NMRA isn't perfec, and it's been mismanaged in the past, but the current administration is doing
what it can to rectify the mismanagement of the previous people in charge.

SGL


Re: Boxcar red.. a suggestion...

Richard Hendrickson
 

On May 16, 2008, at 11:18 PM, Anthony Thompson wrote:

Rob Kirkham wrote:
- find an organisation with a longer life than us humans - the NMRA
does seem a reasonable idea to me, though I don't know whether they
are keen to take on this sort of archival role.
There are several railroad museums far more serious than is the
NMRA, and also are likely longer lived, not to mention adequately
curated. The California State Railroad Museum is only one (and
incidentally they have reached an agreement in principal to receive
the
NMRA library one of these days).











This is very good news, given that the NMRA seems to fading away like
the Cheshire cat, with membership diminishing steadily and its
"leadership" apparently without a clue about how to reverse the
trend. The holdings in the Kalmbach library are about all the NMRA
has left that's of interest to serious prototype modelers, which is
why so many of us are no longer members. So it's good to know that
an arrangement has been made to preserve them and continue making
them available for research.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Accurail gon

Richard Hendrickson
 

On May 17, 2008, at 9:32 AM, Mark Mathu wrote:

What is the capacity of the prototype AAR gondola? 1840 cu ft?

The ACL class K10 design as built by Bethlehem was 1840 cu. ft.
Copies built for other RRs sometimes varied slightly, depending on
design variations and differences in the way their owners calculated
dimensions for the ORER entries.

Richard Hendrickson


Boxcar red.. a suggestion...

Rob Kirkham <rdkirkham@...>
 

Sanguine - nice pun Denny. Very apropos!

Rob Kirkham

----- Original Message -----
From: "Denny Anspach" <danspach@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2008 9:58 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Boxcar red.. a suggestion...


As someone who has been a lurker on this continuing subject thread over the many years (and pretty sanguine in doing so-), I will say that corporately we have moved a very long way to understanding and accepting of just how inexactly color is perceived or can be transmitted; along with the toleration of the wider color/shade margins of acceptance that comes right along with it.
The character of the same conversation such as this a few year ago would have resulted in half the members of the list either already banned, or at the very least, put in "moderator's jail"!
I commend the members of this list in leading the way.
Denny
Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento


Re: Boxcar red.. a suggestion...

Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
 

As someone who has been a lurker on this continuing subject thread over the many years (and pretty sanguine in doing so-), I will say that corporately we have moved a very long way to understanding and accepting of just how inexactly color is perceived or can be transmitted; along with the toleration of the wider color/shade margins of acceptance that comes right along with it.

The character of the same conversation such as this a few year ago would have resulted in half the members of the list either already banned, or at the very least, put in "moderator's jail"!

I commend the members of this list in leading the way.

Denny


Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento


Re: Banana xfers

Tim O'Connor
 

Were the bananas ever handled in express reefers on
passenger trains, the way many fresh fruit crops were?

Tim O'Connor

At 5/17/2008 11:55 AM Saturday, you wrote:
Hi Clark,
East Dubuque, Ill. (and prior to that Dubuque, Iowa) was where IC
banana trains were split between Milw, CBQ and CGW and the IC. I was
told the Milwaukee ran a extra train for as few as 6 cars of
bananas. The cars were of top priority for all the roads.
Ted


Re: Truck painting (was Re: MILW boxcar -- truck color)

Tim O'Connor
 

Is the grit blaster to give the plastic some "tooth" so that a wash or
paint adhers better or does grit blasting change the color and/or
texture of the final result?
Gene Green
Gene
Richard already answered you, but I will add that as an SP
modeler, trucks are required to be painted body color -- an
SP practice that lasted well into the 1960's. Grit blasting
is the only way to get paint to really stick well to delrin.
Tim O'Connor


Re: Accurail gon

Mark Mathu
 

Richard Hendrickson wrote:

The Accurail model represents the AAR Recommended Practice
design adopted in 1941 and first built for the Atlantic Coast
Line; drawings and a photo are in the 1943 and 1946 Car
Builders' Cyclopedias. Beginning in 1944, a few railroads
ordered new cars of this design, notably the GM&O and P&WV,
and the D&RGW received a bunch by federal mandate which they
didn't want and which they sold as soon as the war ended to
the Alaska RR. In addition, the C&NW bought a whole bunch of
beefed-up 70 ton versions. (All of these postwar cars had
Improved Dreadnaught ends with the small ribs extending all
the way across the car, in contrast to the prewar ends which,
I assume, are on the model). As this was the least popular of
the WW-II-era AAR Recommended Practice freight cars, however,
most other RRs in the '40s and '50s, if they bought high side > 40'
steel gondolas at all, had them built to other designs.


What is the capacity of the prototype AAR gondola? 1840 cu ft?

____
Mark Mathu
Whitefish Bay, Wis.


Re: Weathering of loads

cj riley <cjriley42@...>
 

--- On Sat, 5/17/08, Charlie Ake <icrr2@...> wrote:

From: Charlie Ake <icrr2@...>
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Weathering of loads
To: STMFC@...
Date: Saturday, May 17, 2008, 5:56 AM
One easy way to find out the correct shade of banana green
is to go to the
grocery store and look at them there. Sometimes, at my
local Wal-Mart, they
have green bananas on the shelf. Charles A.

Do I dare point out that the green at the store will differ from it's appearance under layout lighting? <vbg>

CJ Riley


Re: Banana xfers

Ted Schnepf
 

Hi Clark,

East Dubuque, Ill. (and prior to that Dubuque, Iowa) was where IC banana trains were split between Milw, CBQ and CGW and the IC. I was told the Milwaukee ran a extra train for as few as 6 cars of bananas. The cars were of top priority for all the roads.

Ted

At 09:57 AM 5/16/2008, you wrote:

Does anyone know if the IC had preferred interchange points for banana
shipments north?
Clark Propst



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Re: Truck painting (was Re: MILW boxcar -- truck color)

Richard Hendrickson
 

On May 17, 2008, at 7:48 AM, Gene Green wrote:

--- In STMFC@..., timboconnor@... wrote:

Certainly! A trip to the grit blaster is my standard practice,
followed
by dips in india ink wash or a rust wash... followed up by a light
dusting of Floquil in some cases, or just brush painting the journal
box areas...
Is the grit blaster to give the plastic some "tooth" so that a wash or
paint adhers better or does grit blasting change the color and/or
texture of the final result?












Both. I grit blast all truck frames as a matter of course. If
they're supposed to represent dirty black, that's all they need
except perhaps for a touch of rust color on the springs and a bit of
flat black around the journal boxes to represent oil. If they need
to be another color, the grit-blasted surfaces hold paint much better
than shiny plastic.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Boxcar red.. a suggestion...

Gene Green <bierglaeser@...>
 

Larry,
When I originally used the term "beat up" I only intended it to
mean "publically, and probably to an unfair degree, criticized." I
can't condone violence either.

I am somewhat hesitant to criticize manufacturers at all. I seldom
know what information is available to them. There has been only one
occasion where I have been aware of a color error and that related to
the M&StL, the only area where I feel comfortable claiming any
expertise.

I brought the error to the manufacturer's attention. It was a case
where I felt I stood on firm ground since the color of the freight
car should have been black but was something else.

The manufacturer continues to offer the car in the original "wrong"
color. I assume the original stock has not yet been exhausted. I
hope if the car is ever reissued it will be the correct color.

But I don't feel any useful purpose would be served by publically
criticizing the manufacturer. First, I know where he got his
incorrect information and know that it was a completely innocent
error. Second, why say something publically and make a whole bunch
of people unhappy with a model that currently brings them pleasure?

Gene Green
Out in the west Texas town of El Paso
but temporarily in Albuquerque, New Mexico

--- In STMFC@..., Larry Grubb <larry450sl@...> wrote:

They deserve reduced sales, they deserve to have the inaccuracy
made public, they do not deserve to be beat up. Violence, even in the
service of accurate models, is never the solution.
Larry Grubb


Re: MILW boxcar -- truck color

William Keene <wakeene@...>
 

Richard,

Thank you for your kind assistance and information.

-- Bill Keene
Irvine, CA

On May 14, 2008, at 8:20 PM, Richard Hendrickson wrote:

On May 14, 2008, at 5:53 PM, William Keene wrote:

Hello group,

I am in the process of assembling one of the Rib Side Cars kits and
have a rather simple question...
What color were the trucks painted?

I have surfed through some websites and it appears that trucks were
painted black. But... in photos taken during our steam era (black &
white photos) it appears that the trucks are a lighter shade than
what
I would consider black. Were the trucks painted the boxcar color in
the early 1950s? Or were these actually black and my old eyes are
the
problem?
Bill, so far as I've been able to determine, the MILW rib side cars
were painted entirely in mineral red, including the trucks and
underbody, when new. In any event, there are color photos to
document the fact that, when repainted, (as many would have been by
the early 1950s) these cars had mineral red trucks.

Richard Hendrickson





Truck painting (was Re: MILW boxcar -- truck color)

Gene Green <bierglaeser@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., timboconnor@... wrote:

Certainly! A trip to the grit blaster is my standard practice,
followed
by dips in india ink wash or a rust wash... followed up by a light
dusting of Floquil in some cases, or just brush painting the journal
box areas...
Is the grit blaster to give the plastic some "tooth" so that a wash or
paint adhers better or does grit blasting change the color and/or
texture of the final result?

Gene Green
Out in the west Texas town of El Paso
but temporarily in Albuquerque, New Mexico


Re: Boxcar red.. a suggestion...

SUVCWORR@...
 

Sometimes manufacturers are like Chesapeake Bay Retrievers. They are great
at what they do but occasionally you need to whack (figuratively) them upside
the head to get their attention to correct errors. Just letting them at
home and taking the other dogs duck hunting does not do much good. They keep
making the same errors. It takes stronger measures to correct bad behavior.

Rich Orr

In a message dated 5/16/2008 4:45:53 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
larry450sl@... writes:

OK, verbal beatings, even in the service of accurate models, is never the
solution.

Larry Grubb
SUVCWORR@... wrote:

In a message dated 5/16/2008 2:26:02 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
larry450sl@... writes:

They deserve reduced sales, they deserve to have the inaccuracy made public,
they do not deserve to be beat up. Violence, even in the service of accurate

models, is never the solution.
Larry Grubb

SUVCWORR@... wrote:

But when the color is
degrees of magnitude away on the spectrum they deserve to be beat up.

Beating up isn't necessarily physical. It can be verbal and that is the
context in which I was using the phrase.

Rich Orr







**************Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family
favorites at AOL Food.
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Re: Boxcar red.. a suggestion...

Dave D <dcwebguy@...>
 

I've been watching this discussion about color and want to add one more persons 2 cents.  When it comes to scanning a color, looking at it on a monitor, and printing it you will never get the same color unless your computer is color calibrated.  Even if your system is calibrated you can't pass the color to someone else and expect them to see the same color because that computer equipment is not calibrated to the source.  I've work in the graphic field over many years and the only way we could use computers to do color work was color calibration of that system. 
The problem is PMS or any printed colors are printed with a 4 (or more) color process and the computer equipment is based on a 3 color process (red, green blue -RGB).  The best you can get is a representation of a color from one color system to the other.  The true way to see each others colors is to look at a color swatches from the same paint store.  Go to Home Depot and collect the pain swatches and tell each other the brand and color and that will be better than any color in any computer because the companies are sure the colors match every time they print them. 
Sorry to run on but I don't think we can count on any computer colors to truly match if you do care about the colors.  I'm sure the guys here do care more about the color being right than I would count on the colors I see in a computer.  The PMS color system is a good alternate as well but not a scan of the color swatch but everyone look at a printed version.
 =======================
My Model Railroad Site:
http://rbdhd.t35.com/
Dave

----- Original Message ----
From: Rob Kirkham <rdkirkham@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2008 1:44:21 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Boxcar red.. a suggestion...


Having seen this discussion before, I continue to find it rewarding in spite
of repeated views. I think there is greater refinement of the arguments as
the years go by.

Anyway, three comments on it all:
1) we have learned that modelling from other people's models doesn't teach
us about the prototype. I think that the boxcar red debate is ultimately a
discussion that is searching for prototype information. I think it starts
from the premise that trusting the colour of the model in the box is not
going to work. The irony is that while some models come in wrong
(chocolate) colours, others come in reasonable matches to the manufacturer' s
paint chips - yet still do not wholly satisfy the prototype sensibility.
Perhaps there is a better way to get to the point where you are painting
your rolling stock to look prototypical under your own layout lights. Its
been described as an art. But even artists learn about the available tools
and techniques and about colour and paint. And they tend to insist on going
out and carefully observing the thing they are painting. Without a time
machine, that is a challenge for someone like me, modelling 1946. So having
a paint chip that is pretty close to what the prototype was painted with on
some occasion is a surrogate for better information. The art follows - and
the paint matched to that chip may take no part in the art. So be it.

2) I really would like to support the initiative Dennis has spelled out -
but I'm no more knowledgeable about the scanning devises or conceptual
systems used by paint manufacturers. I do see a problem with any attempt to
exchange those manufacturers' or retailers' code info as it will all change
over time - and we won't have preserved anything. So to my mind, there are
at least a couple of things to be done:
- find an organisation with a longer life than us humans - the NMRA does
seem a reasonable idea to me, though I don't know whether they are keen to
take on this sort of archival role.
- go with both the formulation info and best efforts to match paint chips
with current formula paint. If the effort is properly documented it won't
be mistaken as "accurate" just helpful. (In my view such documentation
would have to include a number of elements, such as: this is paint mixed in
2008 at XYZ Co. using their gloss enamel abc123, painted on white cardstock
and matched by Joe Volunteer. Joe Volunteer and his six friends each
compared 6 different formulations to the original chip in fluorescent,
incandescing and daylight, and found particular version a relatively close
match, though it seemed a little oranger under fluorescent light, blah blah,
....

3) someone posted a link to GN on line paint chips. Thanks. I appreciate
also the work of the GN folk who did the original work to have the chips
made and preserved and the web page contributor who has attempted to
preserve it and make it availabel to others - That's the right attitude in
my view. But I can't help but think how much is lost on the web site when
everything appears to be calibrated to the nearest Pantone colour. Down
with Pantone! I suspect one small way to improve on that approach would be
to include a scan of both the actual colour and the Pantone "near" match.
This wouldn't (using conventional computer technology) result in me
necessarily seeing the right colour on my screen (probably not) but it would
allow a surfer to judge the degree of error from chip to Pantone. And then
we are back to art again.....

My 2 cents,

Rob Kirkham


Re: Weathering of loads

Charlie Ake <icrr2@...>
 

One easy way to find out the correct shade of banana green is to go to the grocery store and look at them there. Sometimes, at my local Wal-Mart, they have green bananas on the shelf. Charles A.

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