Date   
Re: CRIP SW1 decals

joe binish <joebinish@...>
 

Right, A thousand pardons. Lessee, I am modeling 1953, so the basic black with the small coonskin herald on the cab sides, and the road name on the hood in white. White side sill stripe.
Joe Binish

----- Original Message -----
From: "jerryglow2" <jerryglow@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 5:49 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: CRIP SW1 decals


Since Rock Island never met a paint salesman they didn't like, the
question is what scheme?

Jerry Glow

--- In STMFC@..., "joe binish" <joebinish@...> wrote:

Sorry for the slightly off topic question....

I am looking for a set of decals in HO for an SW1, Rock Island. I've
checked the normal suspects(Micro and Champ, and the GD site) Rumor has
it that switchers occasionally moved steam era freight cars....
TIA,
Joe Binish


------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



Re: CRIP SW1 decals

jerryglow2
 

Since Rock Island never met a paint salesman they didn't like, the
question is what scheme?

Jerry Glow

--- In STMFC@..., "joe binish" <joebinish@...> wrote:

Sorry for the slightly off topic question....

I am looking for a set of decals in HO for an SW1, Rock Island. I've
checked the normal suspects(Micro and Champ, and the GD site) Rumor has
it that switchers occasionally moved steam era freight cars....
TIA,
Joe Binish

CRIP SW1 decals

joe binish <joebinish@...>
 

Sorry for the slightly off topic question....

I am looking for a set of decals in HO for an SW1, Rock Island. I've checked the normal suspects(Micro and Champ, and the GD site) Rumor has it that switchers occasionally moved steam era freight cars....
TIA,
Joe Binish

ADMIN: Gender

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Denny Anspach notes regarding references to members as gentlemen:

"Much ado about nothing- at all."

And since I have already noted that the STMFC has issued no standard or RP regarding terminology associated with its members, I now terminate this thread with the stipulation that members ARE expected to treat each other with respect and with that, I would also note that women are part of the population of railroad prototype modelers and, therefore, we should give them the courtesy of being included when addressing the group's members. How one chooses to do that is somewhat akin to the principles in which the STMFC operates. Members are permitted to criticize or bless a particular model or prototype. Other members will draw their own conclusions about what a member says in that regard. Or...one reaps what they sow. The same is true regarding issues such as that of addressing the members as a group.

Back to frt cars please.

Thanks

Mike Brock
STMFC Owner

Re: Sunshine's Bx28 kit

Richard Hendrickson
 

On May 29, 2008, at 4:35 AM, jerryglow2 wrote:

Is the map in Sunshine's Bx28 kit - curved or straight?

Jerry, it's a straight-line map with "Ship" as it should be, since
the Bx-28 class was built without map/slogan stenciling, which was
added later. Few repainted cars got curved-line or early straight-
line maps, as those maps were applied only for a few months in early
1940 and only two Santa Fe shops, Topeka and West Wichita, had the
stencils for them. In the absence of photo documentation, you can
safely assume that repainted Santa Fe cars got the later style
straight line maps.

Richard Hendrickson



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Sunshine's Bx28 kit

Richard Hendrickson
 

On May 29, 2008, at 4:35 AM, jerryglow2 wrote:

Is the map in Sunshine's Bx28 kit - curved or straight?

Jerry Glow


Re: New Standards for Freight Cars Models

Paul <buygone@...>
 

Denny:



I have to agree with you completely. You can call me anything you want to
as long as it is not late for a meal.



Paul C. Koehler



_____

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
Denny Anspach
Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 9:48 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: New Standards for Freight Cars Models



Gender issues: As a person who toiled quite sympathetically and
supportive deep within the feminist vineyards for a good of my life, I
am not in the very least offended to be among those addressed quite
politely as "Gentlemen".

Much ado about nothing- at all.

Denny

Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento

Re: New Standards for Freight Cars Models

Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
 

Gender issues: As a person who toiled quite sympathetically and supportive deep within the feminist vineyards for a good of my life, I am not in the very least offended to be among those addressed quite politely as "Gentlemen".

Much ado about nothing- at all.

Denny


Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento

Re: Rod's milk car questions

Donald B. Valentine
 

Hello Rod,

Now that you have posted photos of your milk car I can answer your
questions a bit more definitively.

1. The conduit found on the roof and ends is strictly for head-end
lighting, as a couple have suggested. It was found on some of the
Abbott's Alderney Dairies cars that ran into Philly, on the Reading
if memory serves, and also on some Freeport Dairy cars that ran
into Chicago. These were among the earliest such cars constructed,
however, all being built in the mid-1920's.

2. The steam line along the side sill was, as I noted earlier,
another early feature limited to certain dairies and roads. Those
known to have utilized suah a line were the Seminole Milk Co. of
Jacksonville, Fla., the Cloverdale Creamery, of New Orleans. LA
and the Wetern Dairy Co. and Hammond Dairy, both of which shipped
into Chicago.

3. As noted previously, I doubt you could find the jacketed steam
lines still in place on any of these cars after the mid-1930's, if
not before. I believe the same could be correctly stated for the
electricl conduit. Thus you might consider removing them for you
1950's era modeling if the collector value of the model does not
matter to you.

4. If you choose to make such modifications there is another you
might consider as well. This is the removal of the roof lifting
lugs above the edge of the roof. I have done this on my HO models
as well as it was found within a year or two after the prototypes
utilizing this feature were constructed that the tanks and other
equipment within the car body were so trouble free that there was
no need to remove the roofs. Thus the original brackets were
replaced with only a plate that did not extend above the roof
attached with the same bolts that held the original brackets. I
don't believe any cars constructed after 1928 utilized the
brackets at all and they disappeared with the first rebuilding in
almost ever case.

Hopefully this further clarification is helpful,

Don Valentine


--- In STMFC@..., "railsnw1" <railsnw@...> wrote:

Rod,

Mystery pipe appears to be a conduit for electricity since it
appears
that those are plugs at the end of the car.

Richard Wilkens

--- In STMFC@..., Rod Miller <rod@> wrote:

Hi Folks,

Four photos of the GPEX car that
I asked about have been uploaded to the files
section.

While taking the photos and being in a little
less of a hurry, I noticed that what I concluded
yesterday were ice hatches [because the car has the
appearance from the side of a
refrigerator car] were the usual house car corner
roofwalks. Donald Valentine commented that milk
had a very high "thermal inertia" and didn't need
to be iced. His comment reminds me of a posting
perhaps here about an experiment where a load of
milk was shipped from Chicago to Florida in the
summer. The milk temperature was up one degree IIRC
after several days in an insulated but not iced car.
If the person who originally posted that information
sees this post, hopefully they will update/correct
what I wrote.

Rod

STMFC@... wrote:
Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the STMFC
group.

File : /O Scale GPEX Express Milk Car/GPEX1.jpg
Uploaded by : howmanycats <rod@>
Description : GPEX express milk car, side view. Private road
name.

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/files/O%20Scale%20GPEX%
20Express%20Milk%20Car/GPEX1.jpg

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htm
lfiles

Regards,

howmanycats <rod@>

Re: New file uploaded to STMFC...slightly OT...

Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
 

Many steam loco's assigned to B&M passenger service into the 1950's
had large generators on them to provide an early version of head-end
power. This was trainlined through the cars via jumpers from car to
car. Maybe these cars were fitted to run on B&M passenger trains?

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@..., "railsnw1" <railsnw@...> wrote:

Rod,

Mystery pipe appears to be a conduit for electricity since it
appears
that those are plugs at the end of the car.

Richard Wilkens

--- In STMFC@..., Rod Miller <rod@> wrote:

Hi Folks,

Four photos of the GPEX car that
I asked about have been uploaded to the files
section.

While taking the photos and being in a little
less of a hurry, I noticed that what I concluded
yesterday were ice hatches [because the car has the
appearance from the side of a
refrigerator car] were the usual house car corner
roofwalks. Donald Valentine commented that milk
had a very high "thermal inertia" and didn't need
to be iced. His comment reminds me of a posting
perhaps here about an experiment where a load of
milk was shipped from Chicago to Florida in the
summer. The milk temperature was up one degree IIRC
after several days in an insulated but not iced car.
If the person who originally posted that information
sees this post, hopefully they will update/correct
what I wrote.

Rod

STMFC@... wrote:
Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the STMFC
group.

File : /O Scale GPEX Express Milk Car/GPEX1.jpg
Uploaded by : howmanycats <rod@>
Description : GPEX express milk car, side view. Private road
name.

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/files/O%20Scale%20GPEX%
20Express%20Milk%20Car/GPEX1.jpg

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htm
lfiles

Regards,

howmanycats <rod@>

Re: another caboose construction question

golden1014
 

Hi Ed,

Seaboard's common steam era 3cc, 4cc and 5cc-class cabooses were
delivered with tar paper ("rolled roof material") roofs.

John Golden
Bloomington, IN


--- In STMFC@..., "ed_mines" <ed_mines@...> wrote:

Did wood cabooses have tar paper (or maybe car cement?) on their
roofs
in the steam era?

It's logical, particularly if the crew slept in them.

Ed

Sunshine's Bx28 kit

jerryglow2
 

Is the map in Sunshine's Bx28 kit - curved or straight?

Jerry Glow

Re: Wood underframe bans on cabooses

tmolsen@...
 

In regard to Fred's comment regarding restrictions on helpers on the rear of freight trains, I can add that in 1965 the PRR had a special instruction which pertained to helpers on the rear of freight trains.

At that time the rule was any freight train where the diesel horsepower on the pushing locomotives exceeded 3600 diesel horsepower, the cabin car crew had to ride the helping locomotives. This resulted in having to stop the train to transfer the rear end crew back to the cabin and cut the helpers off.

This was a State of Pennsylvania PUC ruling and not anything that came from the federal ICC. I have seen PRR steel N5 class cabin cars that were buckled due to too much power on the rear end of a large 140 car freight train and the buffing effect when traveling uphill on back to back reverse curves.

Tom Olsen
7 Boundary Road, West Branch
Newark, Delaware, 19711-7479
(302) 738-4292
tmolsen@...
(retired train dispatcher AMT-CR-PC-PRR

Re: another caboose construction question

Dennis Storzek
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Mike M" <train_junkie@...> wrote:

Ya' gotta' love the 'net. That's fascinating Dick, thanks for digging
that up and posting it. Now that I know what cotton duck is, I can see
how it might be described as "canvas" in reference ot freight car
roofs. Perhaps the "Mule Hide" often referred to in freight car
construction was cotton duck treated or coated with some sort of black
waterproof sealant.

Cheers!

Mike Mucklin

If the specification says "cotton duck", I'd say that means raw
natural canvas, painted or otherwise sealed after application. If it
says "Mule-Hide", I suspect they mean whatever treated canvas product
Mule-Hide was selling. Since the ad calls it "waterproof canvas" I'd
suspect it's pretreated with oil or paraffin or something, lake canvas
tarps used to be.

I worked on and with some of these materials back in my railway museum
days in the seventies. I hope Mike can bear with the mention of
streetcars, interurbans, and passenger cars for a moment; we'll get
back to freight cars eventually, cabooses anyway.

The roofs on trolley cars were traditionally wood, since there is a
lot of high voltage equipment up there, and a wood roof is a good
insulator for anyone who has to work close to the live conductors.
Trolley cars were traditionally roofed with natural cotton duck,
because it stretches well; necessary to deal with the compound curves
on the ends. Steam road coaches have less severe curves at the end, so
apparently pre-treated canvas could be used. On some trolley cars the
curvature is severe enough that one needs to wet the canvas to get it
to stretch and let it shrink in place. The roofs are done with the
minimum number of pieces; arch roof cars are typically done with one
piece, if material of sufficient width isn't available, it is seamed
down the middle with a triple stitched seam like a trap. The edges are
turned under and tacked with about a million tacks; tacks on 1"
centers in two staggered rows about ¾" apart was typical. On really
sharp builders photos one can often see the pattern of the tacks, and
sometimes little puckers at the corners.

We used to have quite a bit of debate about whether it was proper to
"tar" new canvas. One school of thought is that canvas should be
finished with oil paint, which was what was typically done on marine
vessels, which is where the membrane system seems to have originated.
Linseed oil is a naturally occurring polymerizing oil that doesn't
harden completely for a long time, the end result of painting with
pigmented oil is a somewhat flexible waterproof membrane reinforced by
the cotton fibers. There is ample evidence that this was done to a
large extent, because there are many examples of Terra Cotta red,
brown, gray, and olive roofs on prototype wood equipment. The argument
against using asphalt emulsions, like car cement, is that the solvents
dry out and the material gets hard and brittle more quickly, then
cracks, which lets water seep into the cracks and rot the cotton
fibers. Nevertheless, I've removed examples of old canvas with asphalt
bleeding through the weave, which seems to prove that this was the
first and only material applied to the new canvas. The purpose of the
treated Mule-Hide product may have been to make the canvas itself less
susceptible to decay. Either way, when roofs got old, the accepted
practice was to mop them with asphalt emulsion to seal the little
leaks and hold them together for a while longer, so older roofs tend
to be black.

One of the things that connects "tar paper" to cabooses in people's
minds is preserved display cabooses. Once `Ol 97's caboose went into
the park, the Parks Dept. treated it like a building, and used
building materials to try to keep it from leaking. I've done a lot of
that myself. When preserved equipment has to sit out in the weather,
the first priority is to keep it from leaking and deteriorating
further, even if the materials aren't 100% correct. We used to use a
product called "pilot roofing" quite a bit; this was 90# smooth felt,
like roll roofing but without the granules. On a flat roof, or one
that curved in only one plane, like an arched roof caboose, this could
work quite well. The biggest problem was the 3' width of the material.
These wood roofs are really quite thin; 13/16" was common, but so was
9/16", and the big roofing nails would split it severely. We would
occasionally run the strips across the car so it was only nailed into
the heavy molding provided for this purpose at the eaves, simply
gluing the seams together with asphalt roofing cement. Coaches were
much more difficult to do with roofing felt, the curved ends had to be
pieced, and the end result looked more like a sheet copper roof as
used on some older passenger equipment, but that's a subject for
another list.

Dennis

Re: Santa Fe Bx48 Boxcar Image

William Keene <wakeene@...>
 

Garth & Group,

I presently have three C&BT ATSF Bx-48 kits spread out on the
workbench for assembly with improved details. All of these kits have
separate ladders, etc. And yes, the parts furnished with the kit are
rather course. When the upgrade work is completed, I believe that the
cars will at least pass the "three foot test."

-- Bill Keene
Irvine, CA

On May 27, 2008, at 11:42 AM, Garth G. Groff wrote:

Fred:

I just Googled C&BT Shops, and only came up with a Walthers listing:
http://www.walthers.com/exec/search?manu=193&split=30 . My suspicion
is
that the boxcars all have cast-on details, though you might care to
inquire with Walthers. AFAIK, the SFRD reefers still come with
separate
parts, though many of those are quite coarse and should be replaced
with
parts from Intermountain.

You might be better to try eBay. The older cars used to be quite
common
there.

Kind regards,

Garth G. Groff

Frederick Freitas wrote:
List,

These C&BT cars come up often on this list. Does anyone know where
these are still available other than the odd show? I would like to
add some more to my PRR fleet.

Fred Freitas


Re: another caboose construction question

train_junkie
 

Ya' gotta' love the 'net. That's fascinating Dick, thanks for digging
that up and posting it. Now that I know what cotton duck is, I can see
how it might be described as "canvas" in reference ot freight car
roofs. Perhaps the "Mule Hide" often referred to in freight car
construction was cotton duck treated or coated with some sort of black
waterproof sealant.

Cheers!

Mike Mucklin


--- In STMFC@..., wb2raj@... wrote:



FROM wisegeek.com
_Cotton_ (http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-cotton.htm) duck is a
type of
textile. It is used in a wide range of industries, and can be found
used in the
manufacture of shoes, _slipcovers_
(http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-slipcover.htm) for furniture,
work clothes, sails, bags, and a variety of other
things. As a general rule, cotton duck is plain, but very strong.
<SNIP>

Dick Kashdin
Clarence, NY

Re: another caboose construction question

train_junkie
 

In the 1909 Haskell & Barker plan I have for WP and D&RG cabooses, the
roofing material is simply listed as 'Cotton Duck 110" Wide'. Is it
possible that canvas, Mule Hide and cotton duck are all the same basic
material?

Mike Mucklin

That's cool.

"Waterproof canvas"... similar to a tarp. "Plastic car roofing" in
1928 I think would be asphalt emulsion, like car cement. The term
persists today as "plastic roof patching compound."

I suppose if a diagram listed "Mule-Hide roof", it means it's a canvas
roof, or a canvas roof coated with asphalt.

Dennis.

Re: another caboose construction question

Dennis Storzek
 

--- In STMFC@..., "George W Simmons" <GEORGESIMMONS@...>
wrote:


The following link shows an ad from the 1920's with several Mule Hide
products for railroads

http://thelibrary.springfield.missouri.org/lochist/frisco/magazines/fem_
1928_12/fem_1928_12_61.pdf

George W. Simmons
Dry Prong, LA

That's cool.

"Waterproof canvas"... similar to a tarp. "Plastic car roofing" in
1928 I think would be asphalt emulsion, like car cement. The term
persists today as "plastic roof patching compound."

I suppose if a diagram listed "Mule-Hide roof", it means it's a canvas
roof, or a canvas roof coated with asphalt.

Dennis.

Re: Wood underframe bans on cabooses

MDelvec952@...
 

Just to add additional unspecific info, I'm not sure there ever was a rule "banning" wood underframe cabooses that used such language.? But around 1908 or so -- others may have specifics -- after a serious wreck with a four-wheel caboose the ICC proposed a ruling with wording similar to: All cabooses must be of a weight similar to, and must be able to withstand the buff forces from, the rolling stock currently in service, etc., etc., etc.?I'm not?near my library (home computer is dead), but I think the gradual phasing out had to be complete in the early 1920s.?Four-wheel and wood-underframe cabooses were the victims, though most railroads had their own policies on using them in MOW and engineering department service, some surviving quite a while.? Some states got into the act, as New York had its own law of similar language, which is the event that I read about?somewhere that started the Pennsy's phasing out of bobbers.

Mike Del Vecchio

-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Tue, 27 May 2008 8:28 am
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Wood underframe bans on cabooses






--- In STMFC@..., "Mike M" <train_junkie@...> wrote:

Tony,

Thanks for the note. Sorry, first post here and I forgot about the
"post your full name rule". It IS on the web page I referenced in the
post however ;)

I have two CPUC General Orders specific to cabooses, number 106 which
took effect in 1959 and was related to the installation of chemical
type toilets in cabooses. General Order 114 is probably the one you
are thinking of and took effect on October 2, 1961 and established
"minimum safety, health and comfort requirements for railroad
cabooses". You are right, there is nothing in G.O. 114 regarding
underframe construction. If you'd like a full copy of it to peruse at
your leisure let me know and I'll be happy send you the PDF.

Does anyone know if AAR interchange rules applied to non-pool cabooses?

TIA

Mike Mucklin
Mike,

Can't help with the authority that issued a rule, if any, but I think
you need to look decades earlier. I know from my research that the Soo
Line equipped every caboose on the property with a steel underframe
between the years of 1923 and 1927 or 8; over 200 cars. In 1923 the
road had but 20 cabooses that had been recently built new with steel
underframes; by 1928 there were no cabooses without steel
reinforcements left.

If it wasn't a government agency rule, you might look to the labor
contracts. Wood underframe cabooses had a habit of disintegrating when
involved in a collision; something I'm sure was very close to the
ORC's heart.

Dennis

Re: another caboose construction question

George Simmons
 

--- In STMFC@..., "proto48er" <atkott@...> wrote:
I do recall that the MP cars specifically had a mule hide
roof - was astounded to see the advertising sign at the restaurant.

The following link shows an ad from the 1920's with several Mule Hide
products for railroads

http://thelibrary.springfield.missouri.org/lochist/frisco/magazines/fem_
1928_12/fem_1928_12_61.pdf

George W. Simmons
Dry Prong, LA