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Re: Soo Line boxcar questions
Dennis Storzek
--- In STMFC@..., timboconnor@... wrote:
OK, you got me interested, so I opened the image in Photoshop. It looks like the last reweigh was 11 - 63, based on the fact that the stencil bars are symmetrical on both the top and bottom of the second digit, and the only number this is normally true for is 3. That means the 1960 caption date is clearly wrong, and the 1966 one could be correct. So if the original poster feels like stretching it to a 1936 car and doing a real bang-up weathering job, I'm not going to argue. The newer stenciling for the reporting marks is kinda cool anyway. Dennis
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Re: Farmers' Institutes
rwitt_2000
--- In STMFC@..., "wmcclark1980" <walterclark@...> wrote:
In Wisconsin where I spent my early years, the University of Wisconsin, also a land grant university, created county extensions. This is where farmers obtained information about farming. Each county had one and the county agent would travel to farms and schools spreading the knowledge of "modern" agriculture. Wisconsin has a strong "progressive tradition" so people expected the government to provide such services. I don't recall railroads being involved. Maybe family run dairy farms with the milk mostly consumed locally and in Milwaukee and Chicago milk markets, it didn't create much potential railroad freight traffic as say "cash crops" such as grains and fresh fruits and vegetables. Bob Witt
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Re: New Tahoe Truck
Walter M. Clark
--- In STMFC@..., Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:
Tony, I know I'm beginning to sound like a broken record, but just how different were the Bettendorf and Columbia Steel versions of the T-Section truck, and which model, in your opinion, most closely matches the Columbia Steel version? Time stopped in November 1941 Walter M. Clark Pullman, Washington, USA
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Re: Farmers' Institutes
Walter M. Clark
--- In STMFC@..., "Thomas Baker" <bakert@...> wrote:
Western during the Twenties. I noticed several references to "farmers' institutes". The CGW even had an old coach converted to an "instruction car," I believe. The purpose of the "institutes" was to instruct farmers along the line on scientific methods of farming. Somewhere I read an article about similar institutes along the Great Northern Railway during the Twenties. I assume that other railroads operating in the Midwest and on the Great Plains had similar programs. such as one sees today. Does anyone on the list know how long the railroads followed such a policy? In any case, such programs suggest a symbiosis between the railroad and the locales it served unknown today and unknown for quite some time. Tom, In the book "Sunset Limited, The Southern Pacific Railroad and the Development of the American West 1850 - 1930" by Richard J. Orsi, published in 2005 by the University of California Press, there's a whole chapter about the efforts of the SP to help local farmers in from 1908 - 1912. They ran a farm demonstration train co-sponsored by the SP and the University of California College of Agriculture. Similar joint railroad-land grant college/university programs ran through the West, mid-West and South in the first few decades of the 20th century. The book debunks a great deal of the myth surrounding the SP and is a great read (at least I enjoyed it). Time stopped in November 1941 Walter M. Clark Pullman, Washington, USA
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Re: New Tahoe Truck
Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
Walter Clark wrote:
Now, still on SP, boxcars and trucks, which is, in your opinion, the best of the available Bettendorf T-section 50 ton trucks? I'm afraid to count how many kits I have that need those.Please keep in mind that other foundries made T-section trucks, not exactly matching the Bettendorf version. Prominent among them for SP modelers is the Columbia Steel version. Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA 2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com (510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@... Publishers of books on railroad history
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Re: New Tahoe Truck
rwitt_2000
"Brian Leppert wrote:
The newest HO freight car truck from Tahoe Model Works is what muchCan anyone post a scan of the Buckeye ad from the Car Builders Cyc? Bob Witt
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Re: pulp & paper
Don Worthy
Russ, I can speak about the clay. I've lived and worked in the clay business my whole life. My dad started in 1946 with (at that time) "Southern Clays" which became Freeport Kaolin. During my time Freeport was bought by Engelhard (evil empire).
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In the mid 50s they were still experimenting with shipping "slurry". You might see a tank car ever now and then. In 1959 the Freeport research lab did come up with a process to get the solids up (and still get it out) so tank car shipments could be made. (There is a lot more to that issue) But real tank car shipping for clay did not get going til later in 1960. The biggest shipping was still done in box cars with bagged clay or bulk. Even in early 1980s, many customers were still ordering bulk clay in box cars. As a car cleaner, we had to clean the in coming cars then put 2"X12" boards in the box cars that were to be bulk loaded. The boards were put either across the door ways (whole car is one bin) or across the car at the door ways, which creates a "bin" on each end of the car with the doorway still clear. This would be for two different grades of clay. Many companies were still not set up to receive bulk loaded clay in covered hoppers during the late 70s and early 80s. Things changed quickly, although, during this time. The use of box cars for bulk loading changed so quickly during the early 80s. Any way, there is much more but, for your time frame there would be boxcars with bagged and bulk loads with a few two and three bay covered hoppers in the mix. Hope that helps Don Worthy Ivey, Ga.
--- On Mon, 6/30/08, Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...> wrote:
From: Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...> Subject: [STMFC] Re:pulp & paper To: STMFC@... Date: Monday, June 30, 2008, 10:42 AM Malcolm,That is what I had in mind. Although the weight is 1:1 plus a small fraction, wouldn't the cube of the finished product be less. I had the impression that woodpulp might be less dense than the paper. Would 50 tons of woodpulp fit in 40 ft. car ? Actually the paper would weigh a bit more due to additives (starch, gum arabic,etc.. ) and whether it's coated or not.I think we'll have some tank cars of clay slurry coming in. Was it shipped as slurry in 1955, or should it come in the powder form in covered hoppers ? And We'll have the occasional tank car of other materials. If the car is clean enough to haul pulp bales it's clean enough to haul paper rolls (which are wrapped with heavy brown kraft paper).Russ Hass ============ ======== Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383 New England Rail Shipper Directories 19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478
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Re: Farmers' Institutes
Thomas Baker
I have been looking back in company magazines from the Chicago Great Western during the Twenties. I noticed several references to "farmers' institutes". The CGW even had an old coach converted to an "instruction car," I believe. The purpose of the "institutes" was to instruct farmers along the line on scientific methods of farming. Somewhere I read an article about similar institutes along the Great Northern Railway during the Twenties. I assume that other railroads operating in the Midwest and on the Great Plains had similar programs.
Farms were smaller then, and very few were corporate operations, such as one sees today. Does anyone on the list know how long the railroads followed such a policy? In any case, such programs suggest a symbiosis between the railroad and the locales it served unknown today and unknown for quite some time. Any information out there? Thanks for any help. Tom
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Re: New Tahoe Truck
The trucks I bought from Brian came with .088 wheels. Does
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Brian sell them w/o wheelsets? Tim O'Connor
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "John Golden" <golden1014@...> Hi Brian,
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Re: Soo Line boxcar questions
I can't read the reweigh either, and many of Jim Sands' photos date
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from 1966, but I have seen several cases where Jim himself clearly misdated his scans. For one thing, he sometimes returned to an old slide and rescanned it, and gave it a new date. So don't take Jim's scan dates as gospel. Tim O'Connor
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Bruce Smith <smithbf@...> http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/soo/soo44052ajs.jpg Dennis,
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Re: NYC Milk Car 6460
rdietrichson
Ed,
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While the car shown in the ebay photos may have carried milk, the car was actually an Express reefer and occaisionaly showed up on the Fast Mail in ATSF territory. Rick Dietrichson Wilmington. NC
----- Original Message -----
From: armand To: STMFC@... Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 11:40 AM Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: NYC Milk Car 6460 Marty and group,The NYC and Rutland milk cars were essentially the same car,with some minor refinements.Since the Rutland was under NYC 's control many of the same designs were used including,locomotives ,rolling stock and buildings.Armand Premo ----- Original Message ----- From: "cvsne" <mjmcguirk@...> To: <STMFC@...> Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 8:16 AM Subject: [STMFC] Re: NYC Milk Car 6460 Ed, Years ago someone (F&C - or molded by F&C for someone else) did a resin kit for the NYC cars you're referring to. I have no idea if they're still available. I never built one, but remember Andy Sperandeo had one and was underwhelmed by the quality of the kit in general. I noticed in the last Naperville flyer I received from Martin Lofton that Sunshine's 2009 model year would include a milk car - I can't remember the entire description (it was very brief) but I do know it mentioned a "CV" milkcar. I can't find the flyer (we've just moved) -- but I do know the way it was described (Rutland/CV milkcar????) it sounded to me like a typo and it should have been Rutland/NYC milkcar. Which, of course, would make sense and could very well be the car you're looking for. I'll look for the flyer this week - but perhaps someone else has a copy a little closer to hand. --- In STMFC@..., Edward Sommer <ejsommer@...> wrote: > > Group, > I asked this question on the PCL when this was posted there and did receive a couple of responses. I know there are a couple of NYC experts on this list so I'll ask again: does anyone know if there is an HO model of this milk car. I ask because these cars show up in the consist lists of the book "Ghost Trains of the SP", the book on the Overland mail trains and I would like to have one of these cars for my train. > TIA, > Ed Sommer > San Jose, CA > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: rwitt_2000 <rwitt_2000@...> > To: STMFC@... > Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 12:03:24 PM > Subject: [STMFC] NYC Milk Car 6460 > > This item was recently placed on ebay. > > PICTURES OF NYC MILK CAR 6460, SIDE AND END VIEW AND A SMALL BLUEPRINT, > MEASURES APPROX 8 X 12.", A B & W PHOTO > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ViewItem&item=180258556675&ssPageNa\ > \ > me=ADME:B:SS:US:1123 > <http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ViewItem&item=180258556675&ssPageN\ > ame=ADME:B:SS:US:1123> > > Bob Witt > > I also posted this on the Passenger Car List > > > ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.15.10/1091 - Release Date: 10/24/07 2:31 PM
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Re: NYC Milk Car 6460
armprem
Marty and group,The NYC and Rutland milk cars were essentially the same
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
car,with some minor refinements.Since the Rutland was under NYC 's control many of the same designs were used including,locomotives ,rolling stock and buildings.Armand Premo
----- Original Message -----
From: "cvsne" <mjmcguirk@...> To: <STMFC@...> Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 8:16 AM Subject: [STMFC] Re: NYC Milk Car 6460 Ed, Years ago someone (F&C - or molded by F&C for someone else) did a resin kit for the NYC cars you're referring to. I have no idea if they're still available. I never built one, but remember Andy Sperandeo had one and was underwhelmed by the quality of the kit in general. I noticed in the last Naperville flyer I received from Martin Lofton that Sunshine's 2009 model year would include a milk car - I can't remember the entire description (it was very brief) but I do know it mentioned a "CV" milkcar. I can't find the flyer (we've just moved) -- but I do know the way it was described (Rutland/CV milkcar????) it sounded to me like a typo and it should have been Rutland/NYC milkcar. Which, of course, would make sense and could very well be the car you're looking for. I'll look for the flyer this week - but perhaps someone else has a copy a little closer to hand. --- In STMFC@..., Edward Sommer <ejsommer@...> wrote: did receive a couple of responses. I know there are a couple of NYC experts on this list so I'll ask again: does anyone know if there is an HO model of this milk car. I ask because these cars show up in the consist lists of the book "Ghost Trains of the SP", the book on the Overland mail trains and I would like to have one of these cars for my train. TIA,BLUEPRINT, MEASURES APPROX 8 X 12.", A B & W PHOTOViewItem&item=180258556675&ssPageNa\ \ViewItem&item=180258556675&ssPageN\ ame=ADME:B:SS:US:1123> ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.15.10/1091 - Release Date: 10/24/07 2:31 PM
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Re: New Tahoe Truck
golden1014
Hi Brian,
Thanks for continuing to bring out much-needed products. I'd like to offer one suggestion for you, Sir: Many of us have invested heavily in "P87" Reboxx replacement wheelsets. As you develop the Buckeye truck and the AAR self-aligning, spring- plankless double-truss truck (and perhaps others to replace the Accurail ARA truck truck down the road), I strongly suggest that you tool them to accept the same Reboxx axle length with the trucks they're designed to replace/upgrade. I, for example, have about 80 models equipped with Accurail trucks with the correct Reboxx axle lengths. I wouldn't drop everything to buy replacement trucks if I had to re-equip them with new wheelsets too. Thanks! John John Golden Bloomington, IN --- In STMFC@..., "Jerry" <jrs060@...> wrote: much a "Buckeyeof the hobby still calls a "bettendorf". I'm calling it photographedA.R.A. 50-ton Truck". The real sideframe I measured and plankwas made by the Buckeye Steel Casting Co. and included a spring 1931and four coil springs per sideframe grouped close together. JulyCar Builder Cyclopedias and pictured in Mainline Modeler May and more2001 and May 1986 issues under C&O 8000-9499 series and Pere information then.
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Re: pulp & paper
Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
Malcolm,That is what I had in mind. Although the weight is 1:1 plus a small fraction, wouldn't the cube of the finished product be less. I had the impression that woodpulp might be less dense than the paper. Would 50 tons of woodpulp fit in 40 ft. car ? > Actually the paper would weigh a bit more due to additives (starch, gum arabic,etc.. ) and whether it's coated or not. I think we'll have some tank cars of clay slurry coming in. Was it shipped as slurry in 1955, or should it come in the powder form in covered hoppers ? And We'll have the occasional tank car of other materials. > If the car is clean enough to haul pulp bales it's clean enough to haul paper rolls (which are wrapped with heavy brown kraft paper). Russ Hass ==================== Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383 New England Rail Shipper Directories 19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478
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Re: Soo Line boxcar questions
Dennis Storzek
Oh, so it does. I originally found this same image on another site, and the caption there said 1/1/1960. While searching for other photos to illustrate the other schemes, I found this version with somewhat better color balance, so substituted the link. Another interesting thing to note in this photo is that the reporting mark and number appear to have been re-stenciled for better legibility without painting the whole car. That used to be pretty common, but I haven't seen it now for years. Dennis Storzek Big Rock, IL
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Re: Soo Line boxcar questions
Dennis Storzek
Tim, as far as I know, all the placement variations were with the original block lettering, and occurred during a couple month period in 1951 or early 1952. The original use of the block lettering had it placed just below the top plate of the carside and very close to the door. After some limited production (no one has ever, to my knowledge, been able to determine the start and end number of each variation) the two words were spread out further from the door for better balance, but still up tight to the top plate. Someone must have then wondered how the scheme was going to fit on the older, lower steel boxcars when it came time to repaint them, so the placement changed again, placing the lettering the same height from the rail as it would be on the 9'-4" IH 1932 design cars (which came to the Soo in 1936) when the lettering was placed as high as possible on those cars. So, a whole string of boxcars on the Soo had all the lettering in a straight line, even though the roof line varied. AFAIK there was never a variation with the lettering placed in the lower position but close to the door, but it wouldn't surprise me. I've never heard a good reason for the change in the shape of the S in the block lettering (I believe there were also subtle changes in the shape of the other letters, also.) Perhaps Pullman-Standard did it when the built one small group of 40' PS-1s in 1958. Interestingly, when the road decided to use block lettering on the remaining plywood sheathed wood cabooses starting in the very late sixties, they went back to the original 1951 version of the block lettering, even though the Venus Bold had been standard on EVERYTHING since 1962. http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/soo/soo99024abp.jpg This lettering is smaller than that which was used on the boxcars. I suspect the block lettering fit between the windows better than the Venus Bold would, and the decision of which style block lettering to use was simply a matter of which drawing the draftsman got his hands on first. Dennis Storzek Big Rock, IL
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Re: Soo Line boxcar questions
On Jun 30, 2008, at 8:02 AM, Dennis Storzek wrote:
Here is an example of what started this thread; the car was built in 1940,Dennis, The photo is caption with a 1966 date. I can't read the reweigh, but if it agrees, then that half of the equation is complete <G>. And of course, right next to it is an example of "Brock's rule" a nicely weathered steam era freight car from the Northern Pacific <G>. Regards Bruce Bruce F. Smith Auburn, AL http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2 "Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield." __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0
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Re: Soo Line boxcar questions
Dennis Storzek
Dennis, can you provide some photos (or links to them) that would clarify theWhat a pain to find pix. I never knew there were so many pictures of Soo Line covered hoppers in existence. It seems color slides weren't invented until all the good stuff was gone :-( The Soo Line Historical & Technical Society used to have a info sheet for their "Technicals" line of decals that illustrated all the changes to boxcar lettering step by step, but it's not on the web any longer. Here is the original "boxcar block", introduced in 1951. note the sloping center bar in the S.. This is one of the 1953 home built cars. http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/soo/soo137246ajs.jpg Here is the second iteration of the "boxcar block", introduced about 1959, perhaps on this series of cars. Note the bar in the S is parallel to the ground. http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=772461 Here is the Venus Bold lettering introduced on locomotives in 1962. This insulated boxcar with DF loaders was built at North Fond du Lac in 1956 http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/soo/soo176815.jpg Here is an example of what started this thread; the car was built in 1940, and is still in its original paint in 1960. http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/soo/soo44052ajs.jpg As built, the herald had a black background, which has almost completely weathered away. However, I can see enough vestiges of dark color around the lettering in the herald to feel confident that this is the original paint, not a repaint in the 1948 scheme. Now, what are the chances that a car built four years earlier would still be in it's original paint four years later? Dennis Storzek Big Rock, IL
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Re: GREGG COMPANY
Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
Joel,
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AFAIK, Gregg didn't make many (if any) regular freight cars for the domestic market, narrow or standard gauge. They did make full-sized and narrow gauge rolling stock for export, and some of their Latin American cars would have looked right at home on U.S. lines. They also built industrial four-wheeled cars, lots of them, and many were used on U.S. industrial lines. Dump cars and cane cars seem to be the most common. Gregg supplied a lot of cane cars to Hawaiian sugar operations, though in a railroad sense we usually don't think of this as domestic. They were also common on Louisiana sugar plantations. I think this topic is only marginal to our charter (exports and narrow gauge being beyond the pale), so this is all I will say. I don't want to land in moderation jail. Kind regards, Garth G. Groff joel norman wrote:
QUESTION:I have a 1952{19th edition}Car Builders Cyclopedia and theres a section with freight cars from a builder named GREGG,looks like there product line all for export,did they build anything for American use??
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Re: NYC Milk Car 6460
cvsne <mjmcguirk@...>
Ed,
Years ago someone (F&C - or molded by F&C for someone else) did a resin kit for the NYC cars you're referring to. I have no idea if they're still available. I never built one, but remember Andy Sperandeo had one and was underwhelmed by the quality of the kit in general. I noticed in the last Naperville flyer I received from Martin Lofton that Sunshine's 2009 model year would include a milk car - I can't remember the entire description (it was very brief) but I do know it mentioned a "CV" milkcar. I can't find the flyer (we've just moved) -- but I do know the way it was described (Rutland/CV milkcar????) it sounded to me like a typo and it should have been Rutland/NYC milkcar. Which, of course, would make sense and could very well be the car you're looking for. I'll look for the flyer this week - but perhaps someone else has a copy a little closer to hand. --- In STMFC@..., Edward Sommer <ejsommer@...> wrote: did receive a couple of responses. I know there are a couple of NYC experts on this list so I'll ask again: does anyone know if there is an HO model of this milk car. I ask because these cars show up in the consist lists of the book "Ghost Trains of the SP", the book on the Overland mail trains and I would like to have one of these cars for my train. TIA,BLUEPRINT, MEASURES APPROX 8 X 12.", A B & W PHOTOViewItem&item=180258556675&ssPageNa\ \ViewItem&item=180258556675&ssPageN\ ame=ADME:B:SS:US:1123>
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