Date   

Re: paper density

Tim O'Connor
 

Malcolm

You should check with club members before making such assumptions.
The whole point of the pulp-->paper mill is that it produces fine quality,
coated papers. A kraft mill or newsprint mill would be far larger, consume
vast quantities of sulfuric acid and other chemicals, and would not receive
pulp but would receive vast amounts of pulpwood and wood chips.

The mill is located on the Southern railway, and the C&LE only brings
inbound loads of pulp from New England in 40 ft box cars. The Southern
brings in kaolin and takes out the finished products.

Tim O'

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>

I'm going to assume that we're shipping kraft paper in rolls that can tolerate
the same grade of car as the inbound pulp. After making an allowance for
interior damage, bad orders, imbalance of input an out put, etc., I'm going to
assume I can reload 75 % of the inbound cars.


Re: refrigerator car hatches

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Marty (not signing his full name) wrote:
Hi group: I not that some refrigerator cars moved with the hatches partially opened. I understand that some produce needed to be ventilateded (cool) but not frozen and some were heated in winter to prevent freezing. But what were the actual regulations contolling hatch opening?
Shipper could choose--there were no "regulations," though there was a tariff which specified charges for various services. This is explained further in the PFE book.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: pulp & paper

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

I think we've covered the box car side pretty well. But what about tank cars. I'm supposing there are some used in the pulp to paper process that would arrive in tank cars. What is known about that ?

Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478


Re: paper density

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

Thanks Don and Russ for the input. From their density information and other stuff that I've found, it looks like 50 tons of paper would reuquire a box car of about 5555 cubic feet - much more than any car of the 50's. Can someone tell me what were the typical inside dimensions of 40 ft' box cars of that period.

Also what are typical heights and diameters of paper rolls. Would around 3'3" diameter and four foot height be in the ball park. For 50#/cu ft paper in rolls 3'4" in diameter in a 10 by 40 ID car, (30 rolls) it would take 63" high rolls to get 50 tons in a car. But that assumes the rolls are exactly the right size to be loaded the full width and length of the car. That four foot roll would allow only 38 tons in a car.

As for pulp, given a floor area of 400 ft. and a low density pulp at 25#, 50 tons would be only five feet high.

This leads me to the conclusion that if we assume a 1:1 tonnage ratio of paper to pulp, we're sure to need more cars outbound than inbound, perhaps a 5:4 ratio.

I'm going to assume that we're shipping kraft paper in rolls that can tolerate the same grade of car as the inbound pulp. After making an allowance for interior damage, bad orders, imbalance of input an out put, etc., I'm going to assume I can reload 75 % of the inbound cars.

So for each ten carloads of paper shipped, I'll have eight carloads of pulp arriving, two pulp cars leaving empty and four clean cars supplied by the railroad.

I'm assuming that kaolin, starch and other such stuff will have enough of a dust problem that those cars will need to go the cleaning track before being loaded again.


ADMIN: Bridges Terminated

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Given that bridges are not frt cars, discussions about bridges are now terminated.

Mike Brock
STMFC Owner


Re: grab irons: bending jig

Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
 

Bill Bedford's site offers a lot of neat stuff. His "miscellaneaous"
page has what appear to be very nice etched brake wheels in many sizes.

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@..., "Manfred Lorenz" <germanfred55@...> wrote:

Resurrecting an old thread:

Here's another supplier of more railroad connected tools who offers a
bending jig for hand holds that should be more versatile:

http://www.mousa.uk.com/Cat/OLCat4/jigs_and_tools.html

At £2.50 (pound sterling) it should be quite affordable.

At my place here it opens slowly and the pictures take a while
to "develop".

Manfred


Re: Steel truss bridge at Odgen UT

Tim O'Connor
 

Mike
I think Overland did a similar bridge in HO scale.
Tim O'

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: MIKE CALVERT <mike.calvert@...>
For an excellent model of this type of bridge, but with an arched top chord, see
the River Raisin site at
http://www.riverraisinmodels.com/pratt.html
Mike Calvert


kit availability

Westerfield <westerfield@...>
 

To all - Please be aware that we will not be filling orders for series 11400, 11500 and 11600 until August. We will have only a limited ability to fill orders for older kits. Data disks and decals are not affected. - Al Westerfield


Re: paper density

water.kresse@...
 

Did they have to keep the "clay dry bulk hops" in a pool to avoid contamination?

Al Kresse

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "rhass" <rhass@...>
Malcom,
It depends on what kind of paper your mill is making.
Tissue 12-25# cu ft
Fine paper 48# cu ft
Kraft paper 54# cu ft
Coated book paper 69# cu ft
Glassine 86# cu ft

Add the variables of dia. and length of the rolls being shipped and how they'll fit into a boxcar (shipped on end so the rolls won't get a flat spot) and the car ratio can be all over the place. Tissue is the exception it would be converted on site.

Pulp bales are 32"x24"x20" and weigh about 400# (50# cu ft) so a little math will give you how many tons per car.

I'll second what Don said about clay loading and add that the starch wouldn't have been bulk loaded in a boxcar, think lots of bags.

Russ Hass


refrigerator car hatches

gastro42000 <martincooper@...>
 

Hi group: I not that some refrigerator cars moved with the hatches
partially opened. I understand that some produce needed to be
ventilateded (cool) but not frozen and some were heated in winter to
prevent freezing. But what were the actual regulations contolling hatch
opening? Thanks, Marty


Steel truss bridge at Odgen UT

Mike Calvert
 

For an excellent model of this type of bridge, but with an arched top chord, see the River Raisin site at
http://www.riverraisinmodels.com/pratt.html
Mike Calvert


Re: NYC Milk Car 6460

cvsne <mjmcguirk@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "armand" <armprem@...> wrote:

Marty and group,The NYC and Rutland milk cars were essentially
the same
car,with some minor refinements.Since the Rutland was under NYC 's
control
many of the same designs were used including,locomotives ,rolling
stock and
buildings.Armand Premo
----- Original Message -----
Hi Armand,

Aware of the similarities between the NYC and Rutland cars in
question. I found the Sunshine flyer last night (which is a
preliminary draft for the upcoming Naperville meet) - in the list of
new models for 2009 it includes a "NYC Express Reefer" and a "NYC/CV
Milk Car". I think the "CV" is a typo - as there are no
similarities between the CV's milk cars and the NYC's. I think it
should read "NYC/Rutland" milk car, which would make more sense.

Someone mentioned these cars were used in express service to the
West Coast - I learned that a long time ago when Andy Sperandeo
asked me if I knew of any models of these NYC milk cars . . . it was
the first and only time Andy has ever built a milk car (that I know
of . . .!)

Marty


Re: Farmers' Institutes

Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Tom,

California's Northern Electric Railway (later the Sacramento Northern) owned an ex-PRR wooden baggage-express car which was converted into a demonstration car. Cost was shared with the closely-allied Pacific Gas & Electric Co., and the exhibits promoted farm and home electrification. The car made the rounds at county fairs in the NERY service area for about eight years. When the NERY was reorganized as the SNRR in 1918, the car was downgraded to maintenance-of-way service. Photos can be seen in Ira Swett's SACRAMENTO NORTHERN (Interurbans Press and Pentrex, various editions).

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

--- In STMFC@..., "Thomas Baker" <bakert@...> wrote:
I have been looking back in company magazines from the Chicago Great
Western during the Twenties. I noticed several references to
"farmers' institutes". The CGW even had an old coach converted to an
"instruction car," I believe. The purpose of the "institutes" was to
instruct farmers along the line on scientific methods of farming. Somewhere I read an article about similar institutes along the Great
Northern Railway during the Twenties. I assume that other railroads
operating in the Midwest and on the Great Plains had similar programs.


Re: CB&Q and FW&D Boxcars

al_brown03
 

See Hamsmith, MM 3/96 pp 69-71. Answer in brief: yep. These are XM-32
cars, subclasses B,C,D, and F; parts-built between '51-53 at Havelock
shops.

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.


--- In STMFC@..., "Brian J Carlson" <brian@...> wrote:

I'm looking for some information on a series of CB&Q and FW&D boxcars.
FW&D 8501-9250 40 6, 10 6 IH cars.
CB&Q 60000-62249 40 6 10 6 IH cars
These were 10 6 cars that do not show up in either Ed hawkins
Modified 1937
AAR boxcar or the AAR 10 6 postwar roster on the Steam era Freight
car site.
I also have not been able to find them in the many RMJ and Model
Railroading
articles on boxcars. Were these in fact post war 10 6 cars. Any help
would
be appreciated.

Brian J Carlson P.E.
Cheektowaga NY


Re: grab irons: bending jig

Manfred Lorenz
 

Resurrecting an old thread:

Here's another supplier of more railroad connected tools who offers a
bending jig for hand holds that should be more versatile:

http://www.mousa.uk.com/Cat/OLCat4/jigs_and_tools.html

At £2.50 (pound sterling) it should be quite affordable.

At my place here it opens slowly and the pictures take a while
to "develop".

Manfred


Re: GN1152 - type 11 tank car

Staffan Ehnbom <staffan.ehnbom@...>
 

The GN X1152 used to be in the GN295575-295614 series so if Ed Kaminsky's picture of the 295589 is an AC&F builders photo the cars were built for the GN by AC&F in 1913 according to the GN diagram. It was 12000 gallon capy, tank length 34'10, diameter 7'10.

Staffan Ehnbom

----- Original Message -----
From: Rob Kirkham
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 8:23 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] GN1152 - type 11 tank car


Hi Rich,

You've made a rivet counter out of me this evening..... (Nah! I was already
a rivet counter - Go Archer!). I was counting the double rivet row along
the horizontal seem on the GN tank - and to make it easy counted just the
top row of rivets for the first (nearest) course - numbering 26 I think.
That took me to Ed Kaminski's "Tank Cars" where I stumbled across GN295589 -
a 12000 gallon car - see p.86. Too dark an image to count rivets however.
But SP49107 on p.93 - also 12000 gallons - does show the rivets well - and I
count 26 there as well (assuming two largely hidden by the tank band).

So assuming the rivet spacing is a fairly predictable basis for estimating
the length of comparable design and vintage tank cars, I don't think a case
can be sustained that the GN car in the E-bay photo was too long to be AC&F.
But I'd be happy to give it another thought if I'm missing something here.

Rob Kirkham

----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Yoder" <oscale48@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 11:25 AM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] GN1152 - type 11 tank car

> Hi Rob,
> I am by no means an ACF Tank car expert but to my eye this isn't an ACF
> car. I think it's too long to be from the type 11 series which was very
> similar to the type 7 cars in design which I am very familiar with. Type
> 7 cars were all 33' long with the tank diameter differing to obtain a
> greater capacity. In addition the dome appears to be much larger in
> diameter than an ACF style dome of the early teens vintage.
>
> Sincerely, Rich Yoder
> 7 Edgedale Court
> Wyomissing PA 19610-1913
> 610-678-2834 after 6:00PM est until 10:00PM
> www.richyodermodels.com
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
> Rob Kirkham
> Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 1:24 AM
> To: STMFC@...
> Subject: [STMFC] GN1152 - type 11 tank car
>
> I noticed this car on Ebay tonight - what looks like a AC&F type 11 car
> with
> the upper tank made of 5 radial courses; the lower tank one single
> horizontal course. Ebay auction 160252407483. Single rivet seems used
> except along the horizontal seem. I can't tell if it was an 8000 or
> 10000
> gallon car? Would this have been original equipment on the GN or someon
>
> else's purchase, sold as used later on?
>
> Rob Kirkham
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG.
> Version: 7.5.526 / Virus Database: 270.4.3/1524 - Release Date: 6/28/2008
> 7:42 PM
>
>


Re: GN1152 - type 11 tank car

Rob Kirkham <rdkirkham@...>
 

Hi Rich,

You've made a rivet counter out of me this evening..... (Nah! I was already a rivet counter - Go Archer!). I was counting the double rivet row along the horizontal seem on the GN tank - and to make it easy counted just the top row of rivets for the first (nearest) course - numbering 26 I think. That took me to Ed Kaminski's "Tank Cars" where I stumbled across GN295589 - a 12000 gallon car - see p.86. Too dark an image to count rivets however. But SP49107 on p.93 - also 12000 gallons - does show the rivets well - and I count 26 there as well (assuming two largely hidden by the tank band).

So assuming the rivet spacing is a fairly predictable basis for estimating the length of comparable design and vintage tank cars, I don't think a case can be sustained that the GN car in the E-bay photo was too long to be AC&F. But I'd be happy to give it another thought if I'm missing something here.

Rob Kirkham

----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Yoder" <oscale48@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Sunday, June 29, 2008 11:25 AM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] GN1152 - type 11 tank car


Hi Rob,
I am by no means an ACF Tank car expert but to my eye this isn't an ACF
car. I think it's too long to be from the type 11 series which was very
similar to the type 7 cars in design which I am very familiar with. Type
7 cars were all 33' long with the tank diameter differing to obtain a
greater capacity. In addition the dome appears to be much larger in
diameter than an ACF style dome of the early teens vintage.

Sincerely, Rich Yoder
7 Edgedale Court
Wyomissing PA 19610-1913
610-678-2834 after 6:00PM est until 10:00PM
www.richyodermodels.com




-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
Rob Kirkham
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 1:24 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] GN1152 - type 11 tank car

I noticed this car on Ebay tonight - what looks like a AC&F type 11 car
with
the upper tank made of 5 radial courses; the lower tank one single
horizontal course. Ebay auction 160252407483. Single rivet seems used
except along the horizontal seem. I can't tell if it was an 8000 or
10000
gallon car? Would this have been original equipment on the GN or someon

else's purchase, sold as used later on?

Rob Kirkham





------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links





--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.526 / Virus Database: 270.4.3/1524 - Release Date: 6/28/2008 7:42 PM


Re: Farmers' Institutes

ATSF1226
 

Tom,
There is more information on this program in a book, primarily dealing
with CB&Q, I believe the name of the book is Granger Country. I think
you will find that these program where funded by USDA and the state
land grant univ. Who also sponser the County Agents in each county.
These position exist today in most agricultureal states and include not
only farming and livestock production but also visits to the home and
taught women how to cook, and preserve foods, etc:. These programs
were real popular during the depression and contiued through the post
war years. Not only as a result of the depression but also the Dust
Bowl period that affected a number of the Mid-Western states. New
farming method were being taught to keep the top soil from blowing
away.
George A Walls
formally of Treynor, Iowa


Thank you all for your informative responses. It is interesting to
me that a road as small as the CGW and presumably with a limited income
commensurate with its mileage and position among the Granger roads also
had a program to encourage agricultural development.

Tom


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


CB&Q and FW&D Boxcars

Brian J Carlson <brian@...>
 

I'm looking for some information on a series of CB&Q and FW&D boxcars.
FW&D 8501-9250 40 6, 10 6 IH cars.
CB&Q 60000-62249 40 6 10 6 IH cars
These were 10 6 cars that do not show up in either Ed hawkins Modified 1937
AAR boxcar or the AAR 10 6 postwar roster on the Steam era Freight car site.
I also have not been able to find them in the many RMJ and Model Railroading
articles on boxcars. Were these in fact post war 10 6 cars. Any help would
be appreciated.

Brian J Carlson P.E.
Cheektowaga NY


paper density

rhass <rhass@...>
 

Malcom,
It depends on what kind of paper your mill is making.
Tissue 12-25# cu ft
Fine paper 48# cu ft
Kraft paper 54# cu ft
Coated book paper 69# cu ft
Glassine 86# cu ft

Add the variables of dia. and length of the rolls being shipped and how they'll fit into a boxcar (shipped on end so the rolls won't get a flat spot) and the car ratio can be all over the place. Tissue is the exception it would be converted on site.

Pulp bales are 32"x24"x20" and weigh about 400# (50# cu ft) so a little math will give you how many tons per car.

I'll second what Don said about clay loading and add that the starch wouldn't have been bulk loaded in a boxcar, think lots of bags.

Russ Hass

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