Date   

Re: Location of this scene -- Bronx, N.Y.

rwitt_2000
 

Malcolm Laughlin wrote:

<snip>


I was rather puzzled this afternnon by that Bronx Terminal photo.
This evening I realized that it is a photo of a model cleverly
superimposed on a real background photo. If you study maps of the area,
you will see that the round freight house was not adjacent to the
bridge. It was actually to the left of the Blue Ridge coal tower.

As for date of the photo, my best guess is late 50's. It can't be
ebfore 1955 when the Third Avenue el was dismantled. The car in the
photo is late 40's. The truck isn't likely to have been around in the
60's. It has to be before 1961 when the Chase Manhattan Building, not
in the photograph, was completed. It was next to 60 Wall Tower. So
that makes the date between late '55 and early '61.
Malcolm,

This is interesting as the website author, Tim Warris, states this about
the photo "" This is a very rare shot showing the entire terminal. This
image appeared in Michael Krieger's book "Where Rails Meet the
Sea", which I highly recommend to anyone with an interest in
railroad/water transportation.
Taken in 1944, this image shows the round freight house, yard, and car
float attached to the apron. In the background can be seen the Willis
Avenue and the Tribourough Bridges."

I don't have that book to verify the author's statement.

Yes, he apparently is building both an HO and N scale layout of the
terminal.

Bob Witt


Re: Location of this scene -- Bronx, N.Y.

tmolsen@...
 

List,

In addition to Mike's posting as to the location of the shot in the transparency, I can add some further information as regard to the tank engine in the photo also.

The engine is Brooklyn Eastern District Terminal #16, and as you can see it is a 0-6-0 wheel arrangement tank locomotive. It was one of 8 oil burning steam tank engines owned by this company.

The BEDT had their main terminal at South 3rd Street and yard between South 3rd Street and 11th Street and the East River in Brooklyn. They serviced the team tracks, private sidings and Freight Houses in Brooklyn from this terminal. They also serviced the Brooklyn Navy Yard the Pigeon Street Terminal at Long Island City.

To do this, the BEDT received and delivered all the freight cars to and from these locations entirely by car float. They floated cars to and from connections at the following terminals:

B&O, CNJ, Erie, and LV at Jersey City.

DL&W at the New York Lighterage Station, NJ and Brooklyn.

NYC at New York, NY and Weehawken, NJ.

NH at Oak Point, Harlem River NY.

NYO&W at Weehawken, NJ.

PRR at Greenville and Harsimus Cove, Jersey City, NJ.

As you can see the movement of freight cars for just this one small switching road was quite large. This does not count the much larger float operations of the trunk railroads.

I visited the Brooklyn Terminal in 1963 with a friend, Bob Naegle, who worked for a steamship line and lived in the Jamaica area. While there I was able to take a number of photographs of BEDT #16 and #13. Unfortunately, Bob was one of those who lost his life in the World Trade Center attack on 9-11-01.

The information above was taken from the October ORER listings. The transparency with #16 brought back the memories of having taking photos of the locomotives switching the floats in the Brooklyn Terminal.

The #13 and #16 have been preserved. I believe #16 is in the State Railroad Museum at Strasburg. The other may be the engine Strasburg Railroad uses for their Thomas, The Tank Engine Shows several times a year across the street from the museum.

Tom Olsen
7 Boundary Road, West Branch
Newark, Delaware, 19711-7479
(302) 738-4292
tmolsen@...


Re: Hercules Petroleum Company tank car, 1921 (at Shorpy.com)

Dave D <dcwebguy@...>
 

That's interesting. Did they just part the car behind the gas station and run a line from it to the pumps? No need to have tanks in the ground.

Dave Demeny

----- Original Message ----
From: Scott Pitzer <scottp459@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2008 9:25:39 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Hercules Petroleum Company tank car, 1921 (at Shorpy.com)


http://www.shorpy. com/node/ 4058?size= _original

Scott Pitzer


Re: Whose box cars were these originally?

Walter M. Clark
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Schuyler Larrabee"
<schuyler.larrabee@...> wrote:

What kind of end is this -- Buckeye?
http://www.first-out.com/ebay/0726035.jpg
<http://www.first-out.com/ebay/0726035.jpg>

Tim O'
Yes.

That looks like an NP Monad on the side.

The ERIE (or perhaps the EL, not sure of the date) sold some cars to
the NP. One (or a few) of them
is rumored to have been a car with Buckeye ends.

Where did the LSBC get them?

SGL
Maybe the LSBC stole them? Or was that only after the time frame of
this group?

Time stopped in November 1941
Walter M. Clark
Pullman, Washington, USA


Re: PRR Pitcairn Yard, 1956

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Jul 28, 2008, at 6:07 PM, benjaminfrank_hom wrote:

Tom C? wrote:
"SFRD 50' cars did not get diagonal panel roofs, when rebuilt."

That's true, and the car in question is not an SFRD car, but look
again - that's not a diagonal panel roof. What looks like diagonal
panel creases is actually wreck damage.







As is easily determined, because the diagonal creases go the wrong
way. Many of the responses to the question about the origin of this
refrigerator car have been not merely speculative but totally at odds
with the physical evidence. Come on, guys, try looking carefully at
the photo and engaging brain before activating keyboard.


Richard Hendrickson


FW: (erielack) Where is this (perhaps OT)

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Forwarding a useful note from the erielack list. Click the first link, then click the top
thumbnail on that page.

SGL

-----Original Message-----
From: Vincent Lee [mailto:vincejlee@...]
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2008 11:41 AM
To: Erie Lack Mail List; Schuyler Larrabee
Subject: (erielack) Where is this (perhaps OT)

NOTE: This message had contained at least one image attachment.
To view or download the image(s), click on or cut and paste the
following URL into your web browser:


http://lists.railfan.net/listthumb.cgi?erielack-07-28-08

BronxMap_South_HTerm.jpg (image/jpeg, 473x710 98984 bytes, BF: 3.39 ppb)


Schuyler Larrabee wrote:

"STMFC seems to believe it to be in the Bronx? Did the B&O have a yard there? OTOH, that looks
like
a BCK car hiding off to the left . . .

http://www.first-out.com/ebay/0726104.jpg "

It's the Harlem Terminal in the Bronx, looking south west, probably taken on a June or July
evening (sun angle) from
the Major Deegan Expressway. I've attached an extract from a Bromley map (Fair Use!) showing the
location, with the
Blue Ridge Coal Company marked.

Vince Lee

Modeling the Erie Wyoming Division in Pennsylvania and
the Erie 28th Street Terminal in New York City


Please visit my website for eastern and western railfanning photos:
http://www.eastwestrails.com/





The Erie Lackawanna Mailing List
http://EL-List.railfan.net/
To Unsubscribe: http://Lists.Railfan.net/erielackunsub.html


Re: Location of this scene

Matt Herson
 

David,

I stand by my earlier statement that the photo was taken from the Bronx side of the NYC bridge to the Park Ave. Viaduct and Grand Central Station. Notice in the lower right the railing for the bridge. The photo could possibly be taken from the vestibule of a passing train. The bridge to the extreme left is the 3rd Ave. bridge and the steam era freight cars are at the Harlem Transfer Facility. The photo referenced for the CNJ facility shows the double deck bridge used by the Second and Third Ave. Elevated trains from Manhattan to the Bronx located at Second Ave. The CNJ site is to the east of the Harlem Transfer station.

A good photo looking from Manhattan to the Bronx at this location is found in Model Railroad Planning 2007 on page 42 included with the Harlem Transfer article by Charlie Conway. In this interesting photo the original NYC Harlem River crossing is still in service but the new span is under construction. Notice the Blue Ridge concrete silos also appear in the MRP photo but were then named Cramer. A map of the area is also included in the article and should clear up any confusion.

Matt Herson

----- Original Message -----
From: David Wiggs
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2008 8:11 PM
Subject: [STMFC] RE: Location of this scene


Per the caption in the book, it is indeed, the Harlem River and the
bridge to the immediate rear is the Second Ave Elevated RR Bridge. On
page 52 is a map of NYC and you can see the CNJ yard on the left near
the confluence of the Harlem and East Rivers, just above Randall's
Island.

David in Orlando


Re: Location of this scene -- Bronx, N.Y.

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

After some study, I'm certain of what that view is. It is looking down Third Avenue from the Bronx. The bridge to the left is the Willis Avenue Bridge. This is the same bridge that is behind the Third Avenue elevated tracks in the Bronx Terminal photo.

The bridge from which the photo was taken is the Third Avenue Bridge. That bridge lands in Manhattan about halfway between Third and Lexington Avenues. Another clue that we are looking down Third Avenue is that the Chrysler Building is to the right. I know it is on the east side of Lexington at 42nd street.I was at first a bit concerned about the angle of the bridge. The walkway railing in the poto points too far to the west. But on scrutinizng the model phoi, I see that the walkway is at an angle to the bridge.

The skyscraper far down Third Avenue is the Cities Service Building aka 60 Wall Tower, the third tallest building in the city. The building to its right is the Bank of Manhattan Building. They were the only tall buildings in the Wall Street area until the 60's. They are seven miles from the camea and the Chrysler Building is four miles.

I know those building well because my father had an office on the south side of the 55th floor of 60 Wall Tower. I could look down on the Third Avenue el trains snaking through the streets to South Ferry. I could also see the cars rolling off the CNJ car dumper and reversing to roll down into the yard. But we couldn't see the Statue of Liberty because the Bank of MAnhattan Building was in the way.

I was rather puzzled this afternnon by that Bronx Terminal photo. This evening I realized that it is a photo of a model cleverly superimposed on a real background photo. If you study maps of the area, you will see that the round freight house was not adjacent to the bridge. It was actually to the left of the Blue Ridge coal tower.

As for date of the photo, my best guess is late 50's. It can't be ebfore 1955 when the Third Avenue el was dismantled. The car in the photo is late 40's. The truck isn't likely to have been around in the 60's. It has to be before 1961 when the Chase Manhattan Building, not in the photograph, was completed. It was next to 60 Wall Tower. So that makes the date between late '55 and early '61.

Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478


Re: Hercules Petroleum Company tank car, 1921 (at Shorpy.com)

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Not to be confused with the more common cars of Hercules Powder Company. <g>

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Hercules Petroleum Company tank car, 1921 (at Shorpy.com)

Scott Pitzer
 


Re: PRR Pitcairn Yard, 1956

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Tom C? wrote:
"SFRD 50' cars did not get diagonal panel roofs, when rebuilt."

That's true, and the car in question is not an SFRD car, but look
again - that's not a diagonal panel roof. What looks like diagonal
panel creases is actually wreck damage.
http://www.first-out.com/ebay/0726116.jpg


Ben Hom


Re: Location of this scene?

tbarney2004
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Donald B. Valentine" <riverman_vt@...>
wrote:

Jeez, Andy, did any part of the Bronx ever look that bad? But I
cannot tell for certain whether the skyscraper showing is the Crysler
Building or the Empire State, though it looks more like the latter.
Which of the two is further north? You would know that better than I
and that might give us the direction in which we are looking. If it
is the Empire State or the Crysler building taken from the Bronx why
is it that more skyscrapers do not who to the left (south) of it?
Note, too, the Borden milk processing plant to the front and right
of the uncertain skyscraper. The fuel dealer, the bridge, the Borden
plant and the nearly empty skyline to the left of the primary
skyscraper lead me to the same conclusion Tim has drawn but to
specify a photo taken from Jersey City or Hoboken looking
northeasterly. Otherwise I would have to suggest from Brooklyn
looking across the southern tip of Manhattan but that bridge really
troubles me with that possible conclusion. Regrettably, I do not have
a list of where all the Borden milk processing plants were located in
the mountain of milk train material here and either location is a
strong possible for such a plant.

Now that I've muddied the waters further I'll leave you both to
draw your own conclusions.

Don Valentine


Also, keep in mind that the Hudson river was a navigable waterway for
ocean going ships, and as such, that bridge is WAY too low (I think
the discussions I've seen about the proposed bridge crossing leading
up to the Pennsy tunnels into Manhattan mentioned U.S. Navy or USACE
minimum clearance above high tide of at least 150').

So I'd doubt it could be from Jersey looking East....or am I mistaken?
Tim Barney


Re: Location of this scene

David Wiggs
 

Per the caption in the book, it is indeed, the Harlem River and the
bridge to the immediate rear is the Second Ave Elevated RR Bridge. On
page 52 is a map of NYC and you can see the CNJ yard on the left near
the confluence of the Harlem and East Rivers, just above Randall's
Island.

David in Orlando


Re: PRR Pitcairn Yard, 1956

Roger Hinman <rhinman@...>
 

someone else mentioned this car could be NHIX. NRC disposition
records show NHIX 998 blt Oct 47 was destroyed on the PRR in Nov 48
Could be a match.

Roger Hinman

if so, with the car only a year old, one would think it was repairable.

On Jul 28, 2008, at 12:09 AM, Richard Hendrickson wrote:

On Jul 27, 2008, at 7:51 PM, Tim O'Connor wrote:

Was this where PRR put freight cars to pasture? I like
that steel reefer in the foreground...
http://www.first-out.com/ebay/0726116.jpg
That reefer definitely isn't ex-PRR (or ex-FGEX). It looks like a
foreign road car that the PRR wrecked and wrote off. As it is a rare
50' car with a 4' wide door, I'd guess it was once one of the North
Western Refrigerator Line cars of that description.

Richard Hendrickson





Re: PRR Pitcairn Yard, 1956

Matt Herson
 

From what can be seen in the photo the reefer could be a NHIX 900 series car leased to the Northern Pacific. These cars had the rectangular panel roof as on the car in the photo. Can't see how many side panels but the NHIX car had 9 on either side of the door and a straight side sill.

Matt Herson


Re: Location of this scene?

Matt Herson
 

The photo is taken from the Bronx and is looking across the Harlem River south toward Manhattan. The bridge to the left is the 3rd Ave Bridge and it appears the photo may have been taken from the New York Central bridge to Grand Central Terminal. The Chrysler Building at 42nd Street is on Lexington Ave., the street that the camera is looking straight down. The Empire State Building at 34th St. is on 5th Ave to the west, visible near the Borden's sign.

I believe the freight cars to the left are at the Harlem Transfer Facility which was discussed here a while back.

Matt Herson

----- Original Message -----
From: Andy Miller
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2008 10:30 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Location of this scene?


I think this may be the Bronx. We are looking over the Harlem River. There appear to be skyscrapers (Emp State bldg and Chrysler bldg?) in the distance.

Andy Miller
----- Original Message -----
From: Tim O'Connor
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2008 10:20 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Location of this scene?

I'm guessing New Jersey somewhere... that Blue Ridge
coal and oil dealer may be a clue.

http://www.first-out.com/ebay/0726104.jpg

Tim O'Connor


N&W H2 IC and WAB

Charlie Vlk
 

I just arrived at the Wabash number series by re-checking the N&W Coal Cars book.... it doesn't give a number range for the 38000 series Wabash cars
but states that the N&W got them back when the Wabash was merged and they went into the 3XXXXX series by adding 300000 to the Wabash numbers.
The OER for 1965 shows the series to be 338000 to 338358 which accounts for the 359 cars. I know that this puts them outside of consideration for this
list, but I wasn't sure of that when I started tracking down the history of these steam era car leases and sales.
This proves there is more than one way to skin a cat.... but I am still looking for the IC numbers.... apparently they were H2s and did not get new numbers
as the series is the same as they carried on the N&W. They might show up in a footnote under N&W rather than IC as being leased in 1946-47-48.
BTW, there is mention in the N&W Coal Cars book of a potential lease of cars to the IC but the book states it did not happen... and we have photographic
evidence that at least one car was lettered for IC.
Thanks,
Charlie Vlk


Re: Clinchfield 40' Gondola

golden1014
 

Doc,

You've saved me once again--thanks so much. That six-pack of beer I
owe you has turned into a case.

John

John Golden
On the Road in Little Rock, AR


--- In STMFC@..., Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...>
wrote:

On Jul 28, 2008, at 8:21 AM, John Golden wrote:

Gentlemen,

I'm beginning construction on a Sunshine HO scale Clinchfield
40'
high-
side gondola with round ends. The instructions are pretty weak,
and
I'm
in need of a prototype photo or two to make sure I get things
right. If
anyone has any prototype photos you could send me (or post to
the
group
site) I would greatly appreciate it. I'd like to have it
completely
built up by tomorrow night. Thanks very much for whatever help
you can
provide.










John, I have both builder's photos and an in-service shot and will
attach them to an off-list e-mail message.

Richard Hendrickson





Re: Location of this scene -- Bronx, N.Y.

Norman+Laraine Larkin <lono@...>
 

This is right on. For those interested in this type of operation with heavy 1950s LCL and team track ops, the November and December 1989 issues of Railpace Magazine ran a two-part article by David Pearce complete with track diagrams and photos of the era's freight equipment.
Norm Larkin

----- Original Message -----
From: MDelvec952
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2008 12:12 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Location of this scene -- Bronx, N.Y.



This location is the Jersey Central's Bronx Terminal operation; Lackawanna's Harlem Transfer was behind the photographer. This scene is the northeastern edge of Manhattan Island (to the right) and the South Bronx (to the left), six or seven miles north of Mid-town. This is the Harlem River; the photo looks south and the first railroad bridge south of the CNJ's round freight house is the mighty New York Central's main line onto the Park Avenue Viaduct that carries the elevated four tracks into Grand Central Terminal.

That Ruppert's Brewery is on the Bronx side of the Harlem River (left in the photo) and its owner "Colonel" Ruppert is the majority partner who, when turned down numerous times by the New York baseball Giants was encouraged by Giants manager John McGraw to buy the fledgeling New York Highlanders in the American League, purchased the Highlanders and turned them into the New York Yankees. Ruppert wanted a winning baseball team to help promote his beer; he hired Red Sox business manager Ed Barrow who began purchasing a series of Red Sox players to turn the Yankees into a winning team. Babe Ruth was but one of nine Red Sox sold to the Yankees -- I'm of the opinion that Barrow is a missing plaque in Monument Park.

Little satellite operations like the one in the photo dotted the Hudson, East and Harlem rivers around Manhattan, Bronx and Brooklyn. Railroads simply pulled the cars off of car floats and spotted them at odd-shaped freight houses and numerous little team tracks, returning the empties to the carfloats. A few of the railroaders at these little operations never drifted onto any other rosters, spending their entire careers there. Most saw one trip per day by the car float, and some two -- most railroads' tugboat crews were limited to eight hours on duty. Most of the time railroads would prefer to run two eight-hour tricks on the tugs than pay one crew any overtime.

What's never written about these little operations is what they must have sounded like. It must have been a constant drone of squealing flanges, when quieted then the sounds of either air hoses parting or the deep boom of hitching to empty cars, not to mention the steady parade of trucks - usually four required for each boxcar spotted - making round trips between the team tracks and the factory who hired them.

That neighborhood during the busy years may not have been pretty, but it was actually pretty safe. It's all industrial; even today this Bronx neighborhood isn't bad. So much has changed, and if you google up the satellite photo off this area -- north and south of the 145th Street Bridge just south of Yankee Stadium -- it's difficult to even tell where these little operations were tucked as new construction has covered the sites. The new Oak Point Connection built an elevated freight railroad just off the Bronx shoreline. Between the 145th Street Bridge and the New York Central tracks are the CNJ and DL&W operations; the Lehigh Valley was just south of 145th Street, the Erie's Bronx Terminal Market was just north (I park on the Erie site when going to Yankee Stadium for quick access to 145th Street to avoid the Major Deegan traffic after the game).

One Lackawanna carfloat survives, docked about 28th Street in Manhattan on the Hudson River with a caboose on it that sells picnic food, almost directly across the street from Erie's 28th Street freight yard -- once a full city block with a dozen team tracks in both directions, a runaround, and a freight house (the freight houses survive, tracks are built over). Out here modelers are increasingly reproducing carfloat railroading as a lot of switching can occur on a little bit of space, like the prototype.

Mike Del Vecchio

In a message dated 07/28/08 11:29:15 Eastern Daylight Time, timboconnor@... writes:
Don

I was informed offline this is the Harlem River in the Bronx. So
Andy was right. It's a great, gritty scene in any case... I'm not sure
I'd want to be on foot in such a location.

Tim

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Donald B. Valentine" <riverman_vt@...>
> Jeez, Andy, did any part of the Bronx ever look that bad? But I
> cannot tell for certain whether the skyscraper showing is the Crysler
> Building or the Empire State, though it looks more like the latter.
> Which of the two is further north? You would know that better than I
> and that might give us the direction in which we are looking. If it
> is the Empire State or the Crysler building taken from the Bronx why
> is it that more skyscrapers do not who to the left (south) of it?
> Note, too, the Borden milk processing plant to the front and right
> of the uncertain skyscraper. The fuel dealer, the bridge, the Borden
> plant and the nearly empty skyline to the left of the primary
> skyscraper lead me to the same conclusion Tim has drawn but to
> specify a photo taken from Jersey City or Hoboken looking
> northeasterly. Otherwise I would have to suggest from Brooklyn
> looking across the southern tip of Manhattan but that bridge really
> troubles me with that possible conclusion. Regrettably, I do not have
> a list of where all the Borden milk processing plants were located in
> the mountain of milk train material here and either location is a
> strong possible for such a plant.
>
> Now that I've muddied the waters further I'll leave you both to
> draw your own conclusions.
>
> Don Valentine
>
> --- In STMFC@..., "Andy Miller" <aslmmiller@...> wrote:
> >
> > I think this may be the Bronx. We are looking over the Harlem
> River. There appear to be skyscrapers (Emp State bldg and Chrysler
> bldg?) in the distance.
> >
> > Andy Miller
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Tim O'Connor
> > To: STMFC@...
> > Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2008 10:20 PM
> > Subject: [STMFC] Location of this scene?
> >
> >
> > I'm guessing New Jersey somewhere... that Blue Ridge
> > coal and oil dealer may be a clue.
> >
> > http://www.first-out.com/ebay/0726104.jpg
> >
> > Tim O'Connor


Re: BEDT

MDelvec952
 

Good point, Dennis. The BEDT was an exception to many rules, including some work rules. Even though it moved railcars, BEDT was not a formal railroad but a terminal. It got away with running steam into the 1960s regardless of 1920's smoke abatement laws with which the railroad companies had to comply.

About the air hoses, that's something I hadn't thought to ask in interviews with old timers who had been there, and I'll start pronto. I know what the rules are in regards to switching with and without air, but practicality more often prevails and a lot of time could be saved "bumping and shoving." A tell-tale sign of switching and spotting without air would be the presence of little chunks of wood on the ground near the wheels at team track clearance points and where cars would be cut. A trainman would chock the wheels on the downhill side with scraps of 2x4s or pallet bits to keep the car in place while he climbed up to set the brakes, if someone wasn't already up there. It's almost a habit of all old-school railroaders that when he finds useful scraps of wood to toss them somewhere they would be needed.

And in my previous note, I think I got one of the Harlem River operations out of order -- DL&W's Harlem Transfer was just south of the New York Central bridge, instead of just south of the 145 Street Bridge.

Mike Del Vecchio

In a message dated 07/28/08 14:32:23 Eastern Daylight Time, destorzek@... writes:
--- In STMFC@..., MDelvec952 <MDelvec952@...> wrote:


What's never written about these little operations is what they must
have sounded like. It must have been a constant drone of squealing
flanges, when quieted then the sounds of either air hoses parting...

I know that Mike is making this comment in general, but it doesn't apply to
the Brooklyn East District Terminal; see if you can find the air pump on
BEDT 16:

http://www.first-out.com/ebay/0726138.jpg

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