Date   

Re: PRR FD2 [Was: Early Schnabel Cars]

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

PHIL MARCUS wrote:
The KCS built their own all welded hopper gondolas in 1932. They mounted them on the then new National B trucks. Innovative for a railroad.
Phil, there were numerous experimental and prototype cars like this. I was speaking of larger scale commercial production. Probably the biggest contributor was Milwaukee Road with their own welded designs, although it is noteworthy that no one really copied them.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: welded cars (was Re: PRR FD2 [Was: Early Schnabel Cars])

Tim O'Connor
 

I thought at least one of the F30 subclasses was welded, not cast.
Not so?
Tim O'

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
Tim Barney wrote:
It was advanced for it's time, being all-welded when most cars (even
of similar type) were
riveted construction.
As Bruce Smith observed, this comment about welding is way wrong.
The first extensively welded freight cars were covered hoppers in the
mid-1930s. Because of all the welding done during WW II, it was a
fully accepted construction method after the war. Freight cars,
certainly by 1950, were being extensively welded, INCLUDING flat cars
of several types (though maybe not so much on the PRR). Not to take
anything away from the "Queen Mary," which was quite a project--just
that welding isn't really part of its eminence.


Re: PRR FD2 [Was: Early Schnabel Cars]

Philip Marcus
 

The KCS built their own all welded hopper gondolas in 1932. They mounted them on the then new National B trucks. Innovative for a railroad.

Phil Marcus

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote: Tim Barney wrote:
> It was advanced for it's time, being all-welded when most cars (even
> of similar type) were
> riveted construction.

As Bruce Smith observed, this comment about welding is way wrong.
The first extensively welded freight cars were covered hoppers in the
mid-1930s. Because of all the welding done during WW II, it was a
fully accepted construction method after the war. Freight cars,
certainly by 1950, were being extensively welded, INCLUDING flat cars
of several types (though maybe not so much on the PRR). Not to take
anything away from the "Queen Mary," which was quite a project--just
that welding isn't really part of its eminence.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: (STMFC) Early Schnabel Cars

rfederle@...
 

Tom Daspit has a website the first US car was the WECX 200 August 6th 1957. A link to that page is below.

http://southern.railfan.net/schnabel/cars/ptdx200/wecx200_1.html

Robert Federle


Re: PRR FD2 [Was: Early Schnabel Cars]

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Tim Barney wrote:
It was advanced for it's time, being all-welded when most cars (even of similar type) were
riveted construction.
As Bruce Smith observed, this comment about welding is way wrong. The first extensively welded freight cars were covered hoppers in the mid-1930s. Because of all the welding done during WW II, it was a fully accepted construction method after the war. Freight cars, certainly by 1950, were being extensively welded, INCLUDING flat cars of several types (though maybe not so much on the PRR). Not to take anything away from the "Queen Mary," which was quite a project--just that welding isn't really part of its eminence.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Aluminum-sheated box cars

rockroll50401 <cepropst@...>
 

Sunshine make a model of one style cars...Mt Vernon blt? Maybe
Mr.Hayes has the flyer up on his website?
Clark Propst


Re: Aluminum-sheated box cars

water.kresse@...
 

The C&O built 5 alum hops and 10 alum box cars in 1948

Al Kresse

-------------- Original message --------------
From: Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
Steve Lucas wrote:
How common were these as postwar STMFC boxcars? I know of only a few
roads that tried them out. . . . Any others?
There are a whole bunch, Steve, many of them singletons.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


PRR FD2 was Re: Early Schnabel Cars

Bruce Smith
 

--- In STMFC@..., "John Thompson" <JThomp1945@...> wrote:

Photo (and blowup detail) accompanying "Interview with Claire I.
Clugh", KEYSTONE, Volume 29, Number 2, Summer 1996, Pages 14-15,
PRRT&HS, FD2 #470245 in Apr 1952 (with Mr. Clugh and another in front
for scale - WOW!).
On Aug 6, 2008, at 7:20 AM, tbarney2004 wrote:
The PRR FD2 "Queen Mary" flat car was an all welded, 250T capacity
depressed-center heavy duty flat. Utilized 4, 4 axle trucks with span
bolsters. Trucks were salvaged from scrapped 8 axle "long distance"
steam locomotive tenders (250F classes - nominal 25k gallon water
capy).
Sorry to nitpick but the 250Fxx tender classes generally had 3 axle trucks (with one exception that I know of). IIRC, the trucks on the FD2/FW1 were from scrapped T1 duplex locomotive tenders, class 180P84, truck class 4F5T3.

Car was also unique in that the span bolsters had a second
well-type body that could be swapped for the normal depressed center
type car body. The well (class FW2),
Again to nitpick, the well body was class FW1.
http://prr.railfan.net/freight/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=FW1.gif&fr=cl

AFAIK, has long been scrapped,
but the FD2 itself survives at the Railroader's Memorial Museum in
Altoona, the city where it was originally built. It was advanced for
it's time, being all-welded when most cars (even of similar type) were
riveted construction. I believe the article you reference makes note
of that fact, as well as the huge amounts of material used (car itself
tops just over 500,000lbs empty itself) and the unique challenges
faced by a workforce who had never previously constructed a fully
welded car, especially, of this scale.
I'll agree with the scale issue, but welding had been in use for freight car construction for over 15 years (e.g. D&H's 1932 AAR boxcars, built circa 1937). The jigs and oven that were used to build this car were pretty amazing, and when you consider that it was a one-of-a-kind, that was a significant expense to go to.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
__
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| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0


Re: Early Schnabel Cars

Larry Kline
 

WECX 200 was the first US Schnabel car. It was built in June 1957 for the Westinghouse Transformer Div. by Greenville Steel Car Co. It was built because power transformers grew too large for depressed center flatcars as transmission voltages increased. The page in the link below includes an article from Modern Railroads and an article from the Erie RR employee magazine. (Scroll to the bottom) The Erie magazine article includes several photos of an O scale model.

There are drawings and 2 photos in the 1961 Car Builders Cyc. on pp 180-181.

There is quite a bit of information on WECX 200 and later Schnabel cars at the PRRT&HS archives, including photos of a 1930s German car. The Archives are open for research when volunteers are working there. See:
http://www.prrths.com/PRR_Research_page_two.htm

Larry Kline
Pittsburgh, PA
Westinghouse employee from 1966 to 1996

Richard Brennan wrote:
WECX 200 photos at:
<http://southern.railfan.net/schnabel/cars/ptdx200/wecx200.html>
The c1957 photo in the middle of the page look like the same shipment as in the book.


Re: Early Schnabel Cars

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

John Thompson wrote:
"The Berliner website includes the following reference, but it's not
clear to me whether it's a Schnabel car or a heavy-duty flat car:
--------------
Photo (and blowup detail) accompanying "Interview with Claire I.
Clugh", KEYSTONE, Volume 29, Number 2, Summer 1996, Pages 14-15,
PRRT&HS, FD2 #470245 in Apr 1952 (with Mr. Clugh and another in front
for scale - WOW!).
--------------
Does anyone have more information on this reference or on the first
Schnabel cars in the US?

Tim Barney replied:
"The PRR FD2 "Queen Mary" flat car was an all welded, 250T capacity
depressed-center heavy duty flat."

In short, this is NOT a Schnabel car.


Ben Hom


Re: Early Schnabel Cars

tbarney2004
 

--- In STMFC@..., "John Thompson" <JThomp1945@...> wrote:

Thanks to all (so far). I had seen the reference to 1957 but didn't
know if that was the first such car in the US or not. The Berliner
website includes the following reference, but it's not clear to me
whether it's a Schnabel car or a heavy-duty flat car:
--------------

Photo (and blowup detail) accompanying "Interview with Claire I.
Clugh", KEYSTONE, Volume 29, Number 2, Summer 1996, Pages 14-15,
PRRT&HS, FD2 #470245 in Apr 1952 (with Mr. Clugh and another in front
for scale - WOW!).
--------------

Does anyone have more information on this reference or on the first
Schnabel cars in the US?

Thanks again,
John Thompson

--- In STMFC@..., <rfederle@> wrote:

I found the excerpt below from the following website:

http://home.att.net/~Berliner-Ultrasonics/rrschnb2.html#schnmisc
The PRR FD2 "Queen Mary" flat car was an all welded, 250T capacity
depressed-center heavy duty flat. Utilized 4, 4 axle trucks with span
bolsters. Trucks were salvaged from scrapped 8 axle "long distance"
steam locomotive tenders (250F classes - nominal 25k gallon water
capy). Car was also unique in that the span bolsters had a second
well-type body that could be swapped for the normal depressed center
type car body. The well (class FW2), AFAIK, has long been scrapped,
but the FD2 itself survives at the Railroader's Memorial Museum in
Altoona, the city where it was originally built. It was advanced for
it's time, being all-welded when most cars (even of similar type) were
riveted construction. I believe the article you reference makes note
of that fact, as well as the huge amounts of material used (car itself
tops just over 500,000lbs empty itself) and the unique challenges
faced by a workforce who had never previously constructed a fully
welded car, especially, of this scale.

Tim Barney


Re: Sunshine MoPac Gondolas 5200-5299

jerryglow2
 

I cobbled it up the best I could when building mine:
http://home.comcast.net/~jerryglow/modeling/StLBM_gon.html

Jerry Glow

--- In STMFC@..., <tmolsen@...> wrote:

Jerry,

The "B" End of the STL&BM 48' Gondola which Martin put out as an
extension kit to his early MoP kits is shown on Page 219 (Figure 225)
of the 1940 Car Builders Cyclopedia.

It has what appears to be an interesting ratchet type hand brake
and looks to be mounted close to the car end center, just to the
right of the retainer valve. No side or end ladders, all grab irons.

Perhaps Richard can elaborate as to the type of hand brake this was.

Regards,

Tom Olsen
7 Boundary Road, West Branch
Newark, Delaware, 19711-7479
(302) 738-4292
tmolsen@...


Re: COAL TRAFFIC

Eric Hansmann
 

Malcolm Laughlin sent:

NEED SOME MODELING DATA:1950-1956 NORTHEAST USA(PENNA-NY) Coal for the steel mills of Buffalo
out of coal county(WvA/Va/ Ohio/Ky)would have moved in whose coal cars other then PRR
============

PRR was not at all dominant in Buffalo. The largest line connecting the bituminous coal
fields with Buffalo was the NYC. It was a secondary main line point for PRR, ERIE and B&O.
Although also served by coal roads LV and DL&W, they did not handle much, if any, bituminous.

The nearest large coal area to Buffalo was the Clearfield district. It was served primarily
by NYC and PRR. ERIE and B&O also had a few lines in that area and served mines further west
in PA.

=========================================


Malcolm brings up some interesting information. I grew up in a neighboring coal field in
Indiana, PA, and discovered the Buffalo Rochester & Pittsburgh Railroad at an erly age. This
line was originally built by the Rochester & Pittsburgh Coal Company to move the black diamonds
from the Indiana and Jefferson county coal fields. These are just west of the Clearfield
district field. The BR&P moved quite a bit of coal north towards Buffalo, but I think much was
sent to the docks for Canadian export. The BR&P was merged into the B&O in 1933. That coal
traffic continued into the B&O years, but I do not know when it tapered off after the steam
era. So while the coal from the B&O may not have been delivered to the Buffalo mills with
frequency, it was a part of the coal traffic moving through that city.

As an addenum to Malcolm's NYC details, the Cambria & Indiana connected with the NYC (at Manver
or Mentcle, PA, I think). Coal from mines served by the C&I in central Cambria county may have
gone north over the NYC in C&I hoppers.

Eric Hansmann
Morgantown, W. Va.


Re: Sunshine MoPac Gondolas 5200-5299

asychis@...
 

Jim,

Your list is wonderful. I use it often. Is there any way I could help you
get scans done? I have a complete suite of scanners and the software to get
them ready to post. If I can help, contact me off-list.

As to your question about MP or MoPac, I think both are acceptable although
MP is the proper reporting mark. I think being consistent is the main thing.

Jerry



**************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget?
Read reviews on AOL Autos.
(http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 )


Re: Sunshine MoPac Gondolas 5200-5299

asychis@...
 

Charlie, Have you built one of these? If so, can you give me some idea of
the set up for the B-end, or send me a digital photo? That's my main problem.
I did not mean to over criticize Sunshine, but if you've seen these
instructions, they are pretty thin. For you or me (to an extent), we may be able to
slog our way through the construction, however, if this was the first or second
resin kit a modeler attempted it would be difficult, similar to the old F&C
kits with instructions that for all practical purposes said "build the car." I
don't think the instructions in this kit can be compared to instructions Martin
included six or seven years ago and considered to be the same in detail or
photo coverage. These are craftsman kits, and a photo of the completed model
would be very helpful.

I want Martin to continue to produce kits, of course! I have several on
order and I think I've built every MP kit he's procuded, some in multiples (such
as the stockcars and Merchandise cars), not to mention a load of other roads
(just finished the B&O mansard roof car and it looks great, had good
instructions and photos too).

Richard, thanks for the offer of the photos. I can sure use them.

Al, I don't know when these kits were produced, a few years ago I think. My
resin kit building comes in spurts when I have time to concentrate on them. I
try to keep unbuilt kits to a minimum, but some I have are over ten years
old. They will be built sometime or another.

Tom, Thanks for the description of the ends. That helps a lot. In the
instructions/photos there is only one photo of a B-end on a fixed-end car, and it
is kind of fuzzy. These do have Dureya underframes, correct? I think I got
that correct from the PDS in the kit, although it had to be inferred. I was
concerned about this since the PDS mentioned that all but two lots of these cars,
built by Bethlehem, had Dureya underframes, but the MP cars were home built at
DeSoto.

Jerry



**************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget?
Read reviews on AOL Autos.
(http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 )


Re: Sunshine MoPac Gondolas 5200-5299

asychis@...
 

It's Kit 70.10



**************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget?
Read reviews on AOL Autos.
(http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 )


Re: Early Schnabel Cars

John Thompson
 

Thanks to all (so far). I had seen the reference to 1957 but didn't
know if that was the first such car in the US or not. The Berliner
website includes the following reference, but it's not clear to me
whether it's a Schnabel car or a heavy-duty flat car:
--------------

Photo (and blowup detail) accompanying "Interview with Claire I.
Clugh", KEYSTONE, Volume 29, Number 2, Summer 1996, Pages 14-15,
PRRT&HS, FD2 #470245 in Apr 1952 (with Mr. Clugh and another in front
for scale - WOW!).
--------------

Does anyone have more information on this reference or on the first
Schnabel cars in the US?

Thanks again,
John Thompson

--- In STMFC@..., <rfederle@...> wrote:

I found the excerpt below from the following website:

http://home.att.net/~Berliner-Ultrasonics/rrschnb2.html#schnmisc

"* - Spelling of the Name: SCHNABEL vs. SCHNABLE - "Schnabel" is
the KORREKT spelling! It is the German word for "beak", which I
originally thought referred to the beak-shaped loading arms, but now
know was the name of the German inventor of the design ca. 1930 or
so. I don't know where or when I started using "Schnable", but it
was wrong and I don't mind admitting my error. "

It appears the design is from Europe in 1930.

Robert Federle


---- Richard Brennan <brennan8@...> wrote:
WECX 200 photos at:
<http://southern.railfan.net/schnabel/cars/ptdx200/wecx200.html>
The c1957 photo in the middle of the page look
like the same shipment as in the book.

Richard

At 08:50 PM 8/5/2008, Richard Brennan wrote:
At 12:34 PM 8/5/2008, John Thompson wrote:
I have searched the Web and this list's archives, but I can't
find
anything about when the first Schnabel cars appeared on US
rails, and
whether they looked different from the HO models currently
available.
Does anyone here know the history of these cars for the steam
era?

It looks like the Schnabel may have just
slipped-in at the end of the Steam era...

"100 Years of Railroad Cars" (Walter Lucas, ©
1958) has photos and plans for WECX 200, a
250-ton Schnabel built in June 1957 by Greenville for
Westinghouse.

One photo shows a typically large Westinghouse
transformer load, with a banner reading "Another
Westinghouse First"... which may indicate that
this was the first shipment of its kind.

The car looks quite modellogenic... 4 six-wheel
buckeye trucks, and two full separate sets of
brake gear sitting out on top of the flat deck of
the car halves. The whole thing is only about
65ft over the strikers, close-coupled with no load.


--------------------
Richard Brennan - San Leandro CA
--------------------


Re: Sunshine MoPac Gondolas 5200-5299

tmolsen@...
 

List,

In replying to Jerry's question regarding the lack of information for Martin's MoP 52'6 Gondola (Kit #70.10), I mistakenly confused it with the earlier MoP and STLB&M kits Martin produced in the early '90s. My apologies to the list for wasting the bandwidth.

I posed a question in that post regarding the earlier 11001 series 48' STLB&M gondola regarding the hand brake (a ratchet type???) on the end of the car. Can anyone identify it as to type and manufacturer

That earlier Sunshine kit was a combination of the MoP Kit #1.2 non-panel side kit and a extension Kit #C.1 which allowed the modeler to extend the sides to make the STLB&M car series.

My second question regards the new release from Sunshine of Kit #83.7, a C&NW 50' Autocar in number series 51000-51598 and 51600-51998. The lower number series had no auto racks whereas the higher number group had racks, divided into 250 cars in each group.

The ratios and totals of cars dwindled through the years with only 400 cars remaining and all with racks by 1948 and remaining the same in the January 1952 ORER.

The January 1953 ORER showed NO cars remaining in these number series Were they renumbered, with or without racks, or were they scrapped?

Regards,
Tom Olsen
7 Boundary Road, West Branch
Newark, Delaware, 19711-7479
(302) 738-4292
tmolsen@...


Auto Traffic at Delta Ohio

Chet French <cfrench@...>
 

Group,

Just received the Naperville flyer and its auto traffic theme sent me
looking into my Wabash auto traffic file. Below is the Wabash to
DT&I interchange at Delta Ohio for Jan. 25, 1947. Unfortunately most
of the information I have is interchange to the DT&I, thus the more
desired auto and auto parts destinations are not available.

CAR........Type..Content......From.............TO
NW...49008...A...Auto parts...Memphis TN.......Detroit
DLW..51077...B...Tires........DesMoines,IA.....Detroit
PRR..98376...B...Syn Rubber...Topeka, KS.......Akron, OH
PRR..94932...B...Tires........Memphis, TN......Highland Pk,MI
UP...195492..B...Tires..........same...........Detroit
PLE..30132...B...Tires..........same............same
WAB..30057...CH..Sand.........Ottawa,IL........Toledo,OH
RI...25136...B...Tires........Memphis,TN.......Detroit
SP...69891...A...Tires........Des Moines,IA......same
PLE..30151...B...Flour........Lincoln, NE......Roanoke,VA
CO...80705...F...Welder.......Chicago,IL.......Detroit
IC...36843...A...Printing paper..Taylorville,IL...Cleveland,OH
GATX.32192...T...mty..........Kimberly, WI.....Wyandotte,MI
GATX.32103...T...mty..........Chicago,IL.........same
DTI..10730...CH..mty..........Montpelier, OH...DTI
CBQ..20123...A...mty............same...........DTI..(50' XAP)
DTI..9049....G...mty............same...........DTI.(frame ldg
DTI..12367...A...mty............same...........DTI.(hood ldg)
WAB..45292...A...mty............same...........DTI.(tractors)
DTI..12166...A...mty............same...........DTI.(hood ldg)
DTI..11744...A...mty............same...........DTI.(motors)
WAB..82777...A...mty............same...........DTI.(motors)
DTI..11717...A...mty............same...........DTI.(motors)
DTI..9000....G...mty............same...........DTI.(frames)
WAB..82769...A...mty............same...........DTI.(motors)
DTI..27941...A...mty............same...........DTI.(axles)
DTI..9031....G...mty............same...........DTI.(frames)
DTI..9097....G...mty............same...........DTI.(frames)
WAB..13068...G...mty............same...........DTI.(frames)
NYC..148158..A...mty............same...........DTI.(40' XM)
DTI..117303..A...mty............same...........DTI.(M S ??)
DTI..12221...A...mty............same...........DTI.(hoods)
DTI..9082....G...mty............same...........DTI.(frames)
PRR..66934...A...mty............same...........DTI.(Panels)
DTI..117569..A...mty............same...........DTI.(M S)
DTI..12128...A...mty............same...........DTI.(hoods)
WAB..45415...A...mty............same...........DTI.(motors)
DTI..11762...A...mty............same...........DTI.(motors)
DTI..9075....G...mty............same...........DTI.(frames)
DTI..27300...A...mty............same...........DTI.(axles)
DTI..13002...A...mty............same...........DTI.(fenders)
WAB..45804...A...mty............same...........DTI.(motors)
DTI..6136....G...mty............same...........DTI.(frames)
CNW..54676...A...mty............same...........DTI.(40' XAP)

I'm getting sleepy writing this and you are probably getting sleepy
reading it, so I am not including the last page of 22 cars as they
are all DTI and Wabash mtys just like above except for ATSF 7627, an
auto car for gear frame loading. Most of the cars I show being "A"
type are actually XAR types equipped with automobile loading devices.


Chet French
Dixon, IL


Re: Aluminum-sheated box cars

gn3397 <heninger@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Steve Lucas" <stevelucas3@...> wrote:

How common were these as postwar STMFC boxcars? I know of only a few
roads that tried them out.

CPR 2 cars

CN 3 cars

Roberval Saugenay 10 (?) cars

GM&O 10 (?) cars.

Any others?

Steve Lucas.
In addition to the others mentioned, add GN 2500 to the list. Built in 1945 by GN's St.
Cloud shops, and scrapped by BN in the early 1980s.

Sincerely,
Robert D. Heninger
Iowa City, IA

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