Instruction videos are great, but Al does not make one for each kit produced. He did one which is a general instruction for all kits. Quit complaining and go build those kits that are piling up.
Charlie Slater



To: STMFC@...: b.hom@...: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 18:11:32 +0000Subject: [STMFC] Re: Sunshine MoPac Gondolas 5200-5299




Charlie Slater wrote:"If detailed instructions are needed for these kits, these kits aretoo difficult for you to build."Guess Al Westerfield wasted his time doing those instructions and instructional videos all these years!Ben Hom





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--- In STMFC@..., "benjaminfrank_hom" <b.hom@...> wrote:

Charlie Slater wrote:
"If detailed instructions are needed for these kits, these kits are
too difficult for you to build."

Guess Al Westerfield wasted his time doing those instructions and
instructional videos all these years!


Ben Hom

Speaking of which, I'm almost done building a Westerfield kit: not my
first of his, but my first since Al put up his on-line catalogue. I
can't say enough for the in-progress photographs. With a computer
next to the workbench, full-size versions of the pictures displayed,
even with middle-aged eyes I can see where 'most everything goes.
Amazing stuff: thanks, Al!

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.

Now you know why Al does not produce anywhere the number of different kits that Martin does. If you want 2 or 3 kits a year we could spend a lot of OUR TIME writing instructions.
Charlie Slater



To: STMFC@...: b.hom@...: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 18:11:32 +0000Subject: [STMFC] Re: Sunshine MoPac Gondolas 5200-5299




Charlie Slater wrote:"If detailed instructions are needed for these kits, these kits aretoo difficult for you to build."Guess Al Westerfield wasted his time doing those instructions and instructional videos all these years!Ben Hom





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Charlie Slater, Patternmaker, wrote:

If detailed instructions are needed for these kits, these kits are too difficult for you to build.

Nice one, Charlie. Guess no one can ever learn anything from instructions, but needs to know it up front. Might be useful to remember that not everyone knows where every little part goes on every prototype, nor is everyone a Patternmaker.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Charlie Slater wrote:
"If detailed instructions are needed for these kits, these kits are
too difficult for you to build."

Guess Al Westerfield wasted his time doing those instructions and
instructional videos all these years!


Ben Hom

If detailed instructions are needed for these kits, these kits are too difficult for you to build. The construction of these kits has not changed over the years. You can take the instructions from a box car kit produced ten years ago and use them for todays kits. Usually a photo of the actual car is all that is needed.
Charlie Slater
Patternmaker



To: STMFC@...: cshope@...: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 17:08:25 -0500Subject: RE: [STMFC] Sunshine MoPac Gondolas 5200-5299

PHIL MARCUS wrote:

The KCS built their own all welded hopper gondolas in 1932. They mounted them on the then new National B trucks. Innovative for a railroad.

Phil, there were numerous experimental and prototype cars like this. I was speaking of larger scale commercial production. Probably the biggest contributor was Milwaukee Road with their own welded designs, although it is noteworthy that no one really copied them.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

I thought at least one of the F30 subclasses was welded, not cast.
Not so?
Tim O'

The KCS built their own all welded hopper gondolas in 1932. They mounted them on the then new National B trucks. Innovative for a railroad.

Phil Marcus

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote: Tim Barney wrote:
> It was advanced for it's time, being all-welded when most cars (even
> of similar type) were
> riveted construction.

As Bruce Smith observed, this comment about welding is way wrong.
The first extensively welded freight cars were covered hoppers in the
mid-1930s. Because of all the welding done during WW II, it was a
fully accepted construction method after the war. Freight cars,
certainly by 1950, were being extensively welded, INCLUDING flat cars
of several types (though maybe not so much on the PRR). Not to take
anything away from the "Queen Mary," which was quite a project--just
that welding isn't really part of its eminence.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Tom Daspit has a website the first US car was the WECX 200 August 6th 1957. A link to that page is below.

http://southern.railfan.net/schnabel/cars/ptdx200/wecx200_1.html

Robert Federle

Tim Barney wrote:

It was advanced for it's time, being all-welded when most cars (even of similar type) were
riveted construction.

As Bruce Smith observed, this comment about welding is way wrong. The first extensively welded freight cars were covered hoppers in the mid-1930s. Because of all the welding done during WW II, it was a fully accepted construction method after the war. Freight cars, certainly by 1950, were being extensively welded, INCLUDING flat cars of several types (though maybe not so much on the PRR). Not to take anything away from the "Queen Mary," which was quite a project--just that welding isn't really part of its eminence.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Sunshine make a model of one style cars...Mt Vernon blt? Maybe
Mr.Hayes has the flyer up on his website?
Clark Propst

The C&O built 5 alum hops and 10 alum box cars in 1948

Al Kresse

--- In STMFC@..., "John Thompson" <JThomp1945@...> wrote:

Photo (and blowup detail) accompanying "Interview with Claire I.
Clugh", KEYSTONE, Volume 29, Number 2, Summer 1996, Pages 14-15,
PRRT&HS, FD2 #470245 in Apr 1952 (with Mr. Clugh and another in front
for scale - WOW!).

On Aug 6, 2008, at 7:20 AM, tbarney2004 wrote:

The PRR FD2 "Queen Mary" flat car was an all welded, 250T capacity
depressed-center heavy duty flat. Utilized 4, 4 axle trucks with span
bolsters. Trucks were salvaged from scrapped 8 axle "long distance"
steam locomotive tenders (250F classes - nominal 25k gallon water
capy).

Sorry to nitpick but the 250Fxx tender classes generally had 3 axle trucks (with one exception that I know of). IIRC, the trucks on the FD2/FW1 were from scrapped T1 duplex locomotive tenders, class 180P84, truck class 4F5T3.

Car was also unique in that the span bolsters had a second
well-type body that could be swapped for the normal depressed center
type car body. The well (class FW2),

Again to nitpick, the well body was class FW1.
http://prr.railfan.net/freight/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=FW1.gif&fr=cl

AFAIK, has long been scrapped,
but the FD2 itself survives at the Railroader's Memorial Museum in
Altoona, the city where it was originally built. It was advanced for
it's time, being all-welded when most cars (even of similar type) were
riveted construction. I believe the article you reference makes note
of that fact, as well as the huge amounts of material used (car itself
tops just over 500,000lbs empty itself) and the unique challenges
faced by a workforce who had never previously constructed a fully
welded car, especially, of this scale.

I'll agree with the scale issue, but welding had been in use for freight car construction for over 15 years (e.g. D&H's 1932 AAR boxcars, built circa 1937). The jigs and oven that were used to build this car were pretty amazing, and when you consider that it was a one-of-a-kind, that was a significant expense to go to.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
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WECX 200 was the first US Schnabel car. It was built in June 1957 for the Westinghouse Transformer Div. by Greenville Steel Car Co. It was built because power transformers grew too large for depressed center flatcars as transmission voltages increased. The page in the link below includes an article from Modern Railroads and an article from the Erie RR employee magazine. (Scroll to the bottom) The Erie magazine article includes several photos of an O scale model.

There are drawings and 2 photos in the 1961 Car Builders Cyc. on pp 180-181.

There is quite a bit of information on WECX 200 and later Schnabel cars at the PRRT&HS archives, including photos of a 1930s German car. The Archives are open for research when volunteers are working there. See:
http://www.prrths.com/PRR_Research_page_two.htm

Larry Kline
Pittsburgh, PA
Westinghouse employee from 1966 to 1996

Richard Brennan wrote:
WECX 200 photos at:
<http://southern.railfan.net/schnabel/cars/ptdx200/wecx200.html>
The c1957 photo in the middle of the page look like the same shipment as in the book.

John Thompson wrote:
"The Berliner website includes the following reference, but it's not
clear to me whether it's a Schnabel car or a heavy-duty flat car:
--------------
Photo (and blowup detail) accompanying "Interview with Claire I.
Clugh", KEYSTONE, Volume 29, Number 2, Summer 1996, Pages 14-15,
PRRT&HS, FD2 #470245 in Apr 1952 (with Mr. Clugh and another in front
for scale - WOW!).
--------------
Does anyone have more information on this reference or on the first
Schnabel cars in the US?

Tim Barney replied:
"The PRR FD2 "Queen Mary" flat car was an all welded, 250T capacity
depressed-center heavy duty flat."

In short, this is NOT a Schnabel car.


Ben Hom

--- In STMFC@..., "John Thompson" <JThomp1945@...> wrote:

Thanks to all (so far). I had seen the reference to 1957 but didn't
know if that was the first such car in the US or not. The Berliner
website includes the following reference, but it's not clear to me
whether it's a Schnabel car or a heavy-duty flat car:
--------------

Photo (and blowup detail) accompanying "Interview with Claire I.
Clugh", KEYSTONE, Volume 29, Number 2, Summer 1996, Pages 14-15,
PRRT&HS, FD2 #470245 in Apr 1952 (with Mr. Clugh and another in front
for scale - WOW!).
--------------

Does anyone have more information on this reference or on the first
Schnabel cars in the US?

Thanks again,
John Thompson

--- In STMFC@..., <rfederle@> wrote:

I found the excerpt below from the following website:

http://home.att.net/~Berliner-Ultrasonics/rrschnb2.html#schnmisc

The PRR FD2 "Queen Mary" flat car was an all welded, 250T capacity
depressed-center heavy duty flat. Utilized 4, 4 axle trucks with span
bolsters. Trucks were salvaged from scrapped 8 axle "long distance"
steam locomotive tenders (250F classes - nominal 25k gallon water
capy). Car was also unique in that the span bolsters had a second
well-type body that could be swapped for the normal depressed center
type car body. The well (class FW2), AFAIK, has long been scrapped,
but the FD2 itself survives at the Railroader's Memorial Museum in
Altoona, the city where it was originally built. It was advanced for
it's time, being all-welded when most cars (even of similar type) were
riveted construction. I believe the article you reference makes note
of that fact, as well as the huge amounts of material used (car itself
tops just over 500,000lbs empty itself) and the unique challenges
faced by a workforce who had never previously constructed a fully
welded car, especially, of this scale.

Tim Barney

I cobbled it up the best I could when building mine:
http://home.comcast.net/~jerryglow/modeling/StLBM_gon.html

Jerry Glow

--- In STMFC@..., <tmolsen@...> wrote:

Jerry,

The "B" End of the STL&BM 48' Gondola which Martin put out as an

extension kit to his early MoP kits is shown on Page 219 (Figure 225)
of the 1940 Car Builders Cyclopedia.

It has what appears to be an interesting ratchet type hand brake

and looks to be mounted close to the car end center, just to the
right of the retainer valve. No side or end ladders, all grab irons.

Perhaps Richard can elaborate as to the type of hand brake this was.

Regards,

Tom Olsen
7 Boundary Road, West Branch
Newark, Delaware, 19711-7479
(302) 738-4292
tmolsen@...

Malcolm Laughlin sent:

NEED SOME MODELING DATA:1950-1956 NORTHEAST USA(PENNA-NY) Coal for the steel mills of Buffalo
out of coal county(WvA/Va/ Ohio/Ky)would have moved in whose coal cars other then PRR
============

PRR was not at all dominant in Buffalo. The largest line connecting the bituminous coal
fields with Buffalo was the NYC. It was a secondary main line point for PRR, ERIE and B&O.
Although also served by coal roads LV and DL&W, they did not handle much, if any, bituminous.

The nearest large coal area to Buffalo was the Clearfield district. It was served primarily
by NYC and PRR. ERIE and B&O also had a few lines in that area and served mines further west
in PA.

=========================================


Malcolm brings up some interesting information. I grew up in a neighboring coal field in
Indiana, PA, and discovered the Buffalo Rochester & Pittsburgh Railroad at an erly age. This
line was originally built by the Rochester & Pittsburgh Coal Company to move the black diamonds
from the Indiana and Jefferson county coal fields. These are just west of the Clearfield
district field. The BR&P moved quite a bit of coal north towards Buffalo, but I think much was
sent to the docks for Canadian export. The BR&P was merged into the B&O in 1933. That coal
traffic continued into the B&O years, but I do not know when it tapered off after the steam
era. So while the coal from the B&O may not have been delivered to the Buffalo mills with
frequency, it was a part of the coal traffic moving through that city.

As an addenum to Malcolm's NYC details, the Cambria & Indiana connected with the NYC (at Manver
or Mentcle, PA, I think). Coal from mines served by the C&I in central Cambria county may have
gone north over the NYC in C&I hoppers.

Eric Hansmann
Morgantown, W. Va.

Jim,

Your list is wonderful. I use it often. Is there any way I could help you
get scans done? I have a complete suite of scanners and the software to get
them ready to post. If I can help, contact me off-list.

As to your question about MP or MoPac, I think both are acceptable although
MP is the proper reporting mark. I think being consistent is the main thing.

Jerry



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