Date   

ADMIN: Re: Kit instructions or lack thereof

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Charles Slater writes:

"Now you know why Al does not produce anywhere the number of different kits that Martin does. If you want 2 or 3 kits a year we could spend a lot of OUR TIME writing instructions."

Hmmm. The STMFC is not the place to comment about business practices of manufacturers. Note the group rule:

"Criticism of a manufacturer's business
practices is, however, not within the scope of the group."

However, comments...praising or criticizing...about a manufacturer's product are entirely in scope. This includes the instructions regarding building a product. Note my complaint of June 16 regarding a misleading [ to me ] comment in the instructions of a SS kit. The problem is nothing to to get excited about but real nevertheless which resulted in having to disassemble the kit.

Mike Brock
STMFC Owner


Re: COAL TRAFFIC

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Malcolm Laughlin wrote:
Here's some info gleaned from a C&I historical site . . .

“During the 1930's and 1940's, the C&I had the largest inventory of
rolling stock in the western hemisphere, primarily because of its many
hopper cars.”
Hello? What were they thinking? Maybe cars per mile? Otherwise
it's astoundingly exaggerated.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Early Schnabel Cars

John Thompson
 

Thanks to Larry Kline and all for the very helpful answers!

John Thompson

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Larry Kline <lndkline@...> wrote:

WECX 200 was the first US Schnabel car. It was built in June 1957
for
the Westinghouse Transformer Div. by Greenville Steel Car Co. It
was
built because power transformers grew too large for depressed
center
flatcars as transmission voltages increased. The page in the link
below includes an article from Modern Railroads and an article
from
the Erie RR employee magazine. (Scroll to the bottom) The Erie
magazine article includes several photos of an O scale model.

There are drawings and 2 photos in the 1961 Car Builders Cyc. on
pp
180-181.

There is quite a bit of information on WECX 200 and later
Schnabel
cars at the PRRT&HS archives, including photos of a 1930s German
car.
The Archives are open for research when volunteers are working
there.
See:
http://www.prrths.com/PRR_Research_page_two.htm

Larry Kline
Pittsburgh, PA
Westinghouse employee from 1966 to 1996

Richard Brennan wrote:
WECX 200 photos at:
<http://southern.railfan.net/schnabel/cars/ptdx200/wecx200.html>
The c1957 photo in the middle of the page look like the same
shipment
as in the book.


Re: COAL TRAFFIC

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

As an addenum to Malcolm's NYC details, the Cambria & Indiana connected with the NYC (at Manver or Mentcle, PA, I think). Coal from mines served by the C&I in central Cambria county may have gone north over the NYC in C&I hoppers.

Eric Hansmann
Morgantown, W. Va.
=========

I'm glad you mentioned that Eric. Brings back interesting memories from a trip I made to the area in 1966 to count hopper cars to verify our car inventory control system. Here's some info gleaned from a C&I historical site.

The C&I didn’t connect directly with the NYC. It connected with the Cherry Tree & Dixonville at Manver. The CT&D was jointly operated by NYC and PRR, connecting with both at Cherry Tree.

Bethelehem Steel controlled the C&I from 1950. Here’s an interesting relevant note from a C&I history site “By 1962, there were only four mines left on the line …… Bethlehem opened Mine 33 near Ebensburg in 1963 and Barnes & Tucker opened a large mine at Stiles in 1965. ……By then, most freight left the C&I at either Nanty Glo or Ebensburg. Coal bound for Bethlehem Steel's Buffalo and Bethlehem plants left the line at Manver and a unit coal train from Stiles bound for Pennsylvania Power and Light (PP&L) left the C&I via the Rexis Branch.”

“During the 1930's and 1940's, the C&I had the largest inventory of rolling stock in the western hemisphere, primarily because of its many hopper cars.”

I don’t recall seeing many C&I hoppers on the NYC in the 60’s. I suspect that is because most of the C&I coal went to Beth’s blast furnaces at Johnston, Steelton and Baltimore. Clearfield coal would likely have been a lot cheaper to use at Buffalo, bring a single line haul with less distance.

For more, see http://www.trainweb.org/cambriaindiana/history.htm



Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478


Re: Westerfield on-line catalogue (was: Sunshine MoPac Gondolas 5200-5299)

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Al Westerfield wrote:

It saves a lot of explaining over the phone, by email and letter and that equals more time to do other things.
Now we come to it. Charlie Slater doesn't have to answer those phone calls and letters.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Sunshine MoPac Gondolas 5200-5299

Paul Lyons
 

Tim O'Connor said

I only
get really annoyed when Martin sells a car but doesn't include
a single good photo of the particular prototype in the kit!



Tim, Well said, AND exactly what started this tread!

Paul Lyons
Laguna Niguel, CA

-----Original Message-----
From: timboconnor@comcast.net
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 12:50 pm
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Sunshine MoPac Gondolas 5200-5299







But I think Charlie's point is that most of us have built a few cars
and know the basics.

Instructions should mention the order of construction (if that's
important), special items (like formed foil gondola ends), unique
details and time-period-specific items. And of course photos
like Al Westerfield offers are worth thousands of words. I only
get really annoyed when Martin sells a car but doesn't include
a single good photo of the particular prototype in the kit!

Tim O'Connor

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Anthony Thompson <thompson@signaturepress.com>
Charlie Slater, Patternmaker, wrote:
If detailed instructions are needed for these kits, these kits are too
difficult for you to build.
Nice one, Charlie. Guess no one can ever learn anything from
instructions, but needs to know it up front. Might be useful to
remember that not everyone knows where every little part goes on every
prototype, nor is everyone a Patternmaker.


Re: Sunshine MoPac Gondolas 5200-5299

Tim O'Connor
 

Most people here will never have ordered any Railyard Model kits,
but you would be pleased to do so -- not only are the castings just
about the best I've ever seen, but tke kits come with a CD-ROM of
instructions in a PDF file along with encyclopedic prototype info
and photographs. Gene Fusco bends over backwards to please
his customers... He doesn't crank out as many new models as
Martin does in a year, but he does fill orders in 48 hrs or less. :-)

Tim O'Connor

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "benjaminfrank_hom" <b.hom@worldnet.att.net>

- Since you're a patternmaker, building these kits should come second
nature to you, as well it should for many of us on this list who are
expereienced modelers; however, adopting you attitude of "if you need
detailed instructions, the kits are too hard for you" seems like a
lazy way to justify alienating a large part of your possible market.
Sure many model railroaders won't even attempt building a resin kit,
but why not try to convince at least a few instead of alienating all
of them?


Re: Sunshine MoPac Gondolas 5200-5299

Tim O'Connor
 

But I think Charlie's point is that most of us have built a few cars
and know the basics.

Instructions should mention the order of construction (if that's
important), special items (like formed foil gondola ends), unique
details and time-period-specific items. And of course photos
like Al Westerfield offers are worth thousands of words. I only
get really annoyed when Martin sells a car but doesn't include
a single good photo of the particular prototype in the kit!

Tim O'Connor

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Anthony Thompson <thompson@signaturepress.com>
Charlie Slater, Patternmaker, wrote:
If detailed instructions are needed for these kits, these kits are too
difficult for you to build.
Nice one, Charlie. Guess no one can ever learn anything from
instructions, but needs to know it up front. Might be useful to
remember that not everyone knows where every little part goes on every
prototype, nor is everyone a Patternmaker.


Re: Westerfield on-line catalogue (was: Sunshine MoPac Gondolas 5200-5299)

Westerfield <westerfield@...>
 

Al - It saves a lot of explaining over the phone, by email and letter and that equals more time to do other things. - Al Westerfield

----- Original Message -----


Re: welded cars (was Re: PRR FD2 [Was: Early Schnabel Cars])

Tim O'Connor
 

Why is it noteworthy Tony? Maybe it's only footnoteworthy... For
example, it's entirely possible that the Milwaukee was issued
patents for its designs, to try to gain a competitive edge. U.S.
railroad mechanical depts were notorious for their NIH attitudes
as you well know. The sales reps from the carbuilders could
wine & dine their prospective customers, but the Milwaukee was
not in that business and probably didn't try to sell their ideas any
more than the PRR tried to sell X29's to the SP. I think the long
service life of the Milwaukee ribbed box cars is the only testimony
anyone needs to know how well the cars were built.

Tim O'Connor

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Anthony Thompson <thompson@signaturepress.com>

Phil, there were numerous experimental and prototype cars like
this. I was speaking of larger scale commercial production. Probably
the biggest contributor was Milwaukee Road with their own welded
designs, although it is noteworthy that no one really copied them.


Re: Sunshine MoPac Gondolas 5200-5299

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Aug 6, 2008, at 7:47 AM, asychis@aol.com wrote:

Richard, thanks for the offer of the photos. I can sure use them.

Here they are, Jerry. StLB&M 11012 was at Brownwood, TX in April,
1952 (Chet McCoid photo, Bob's Photo Service collection). StLB&M
11721 was brand new at DeSoto, MO in June of 1951 (Joe Collias photo).



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Sunshine MoPac Gondolas 5200-5299

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Charlie Slater wrote:
"Now you know why Al does not produce anywhere the number of
different kits that Martin does. If you want 2 or 3 kits a year we
could spend a lot of OUR TIME writing instructions."

Since you broached the subject, Charlie, a couple of other points:

- Since you're a patternmaker, building these kits should come second
nature to you, as well it should for many of us on this list who are
expereienced modelers; however, adopting you attitude of "if you need
detailed instructions, the kits are too hard for you" seems like a
lazy way to justify alienating a large part of your possible market.
Sure many model railroaders won't even attempt building a resin kit,
but why not try to convince at least a few instead of alienating all
of them?

- 2 or 3 kits a year is perfectly fine to me if the manufacturer in
question is willing to fill my orders in a timely fashion. Offering
a multitude of kits but not filling customer orders within six months
has passed isn't terribly useful.

I'll take your advice and quit complaining and go back knocking down
my stash of models, pending articles, and the B&O Society USRA
freight car clinic that I have to give this weekend; however, you
could do us a favor and keep your "customer be damned" attitude to
yourself.


Ben Hom


Re: Sunshine MoPac Gondolas 5200-5299

charles slater
 

Instruction videos are great, but Al does not make one for each kit produced. He did one which is a general instruction for all kits. Quit complaining and go build those kits that are piling up.
Charlie Slater



To: STMFC@yahoogroups.comFrom: b.hom@worldnet.att.netDate: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 18:11:32 +0000Subject: [STMFC] Re: Sunshine MoPac Gondolas 5200-5299




Charlie Slater wrote:"If detailed instructions are needed for these kits, these kits aretoo difficult for you to build."Guess Al Westerfield wasted his time doing those instructions and instructional videos all these years!Ben Hom





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Westerfield on-line catalogue (was: Sunshine MoPac Gondolas 5200-5299)

al_brown03
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "benjaminfrank_hom" <b.hom@...> wrote:

Charlie Slater wrote:
"If detailed instructions are needed for these kits, these kits are
too difficult for you to build."

Guess Al Westerfield wasted his time doing those instructions and
instructional videos all these years!


Ben Hom
Speaking of which, I'm almost done building a Westerfield kit: not my
first of his, but my first since Al put up his on-line catalogue. I
can't say enough for the in-progress photographs. With a computer
next to the workbench, full-size versions of the pictures displayed,
even with middle-aged eyes I can see where 'most everything goes.
Amazing stuff: thanks, Al!

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.


Re: Sunshine MoPac Gondolas 5200-5299

charles slater
 

Now you know why Al does not produce anywhere the number of different kits that Martin does. If you want 2 or 3 kits a year we could spend a lot of OUR TIME writing instructions.
Charlie Slater



To: STMFC@yahoogroups.comFrom: b.hom@worldnet.att.netDate: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 18:11:32 +0000Subject: [STMFC] Re: Sunshine MoPac Gondolas 5200-5299




Charlie Slater wrote:"If detailed instructions are needed for these kits, these kits aretoo difficult for you to build."Guess Al Westerfield wasted his time doing those instructions and instructional videos all these years!Ben Hom





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Re: Sunshine MoPac Gondolas 5200-5299

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Charlie Slater, Patternmaker, wrote:
If detailed instructions are needed for these kits, these kits are too difficult for you to build.
Nice one, Charlie. Guess no one can ever learn anything from instructions, but needs to know it up front. Might be useful to remember that not everyone knows where every little part goes on every prototype, nor is everyone a Patternmaker.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Sunshine MoPac Gondolas 5200-5299

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Charlie Slater wrote:
"If detailed instructions are needed for these kits, these kits are
too difficult for you to build."

Guess Al Westerfield wasted his time doing those instructions and
instructional videos all these years!


Ben Hom


Re: Sunshine MoPac Gondolas 5200-5299

charles slater
 

If detailed instructions are needed for these kits, these kits are too difficult for you to build. The construction of these kits has not changed over the years. You can take the instructions from a box car kit produced ten years ago and use them for todays kits. Usually a photo of the actual car is all that is needed.
Charlie Slater
Patternmaker



To: STMFC@yahoogroups.comFrom: cshope@archplus.comDate: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 17:08:25 -0500Subject: RE: [STMFC] Sunshine MoPac Gondolas 5200-5299

Better than no kits at all - keep the kits coming Martin, those of us onthis list should be able to handle the Instructions and fill in the gaps.Respectfully submitted,Charles D. Shope_____ From: cobrapsl@aol.com [mailto:cobrapsl@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 5:01 PMTo: STMFC@yahoogroups.comSubject: Re: [STMFC] Sunshine MoPac Gondolas 5200-5299Jerry Michel's saidIs there a reason Sunshine is producing minimalist instructions these days?Like the little bird in the tree-cheep, CHEEP, CHEEP!Paul LyonsLaguna Niguel, CA-----Original Message-----From: asychis@aol. <mailto:asychis%40aol.com> comTo: STMFC@yahoogroups. <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> comSent: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 1:58 pmSubject: [STMFC] Sunshine MoPac Gondolas 5200-5299Hi,I'm completing Sunshine's MoPac 52'6" Fixed End gondolas and could use some photos. The Sunshine data sheet includes only one photo of the MoPac cars (actually one of the StLB&M cars), and does not show the "B"-end. Anyoneknow of a source? These cars also include I-GN 12000-12799 and StLB&M 11100-11599, 11650-11899. I also have to comment that the instructions are pretty skimpy.Why no photos of the completed kit and only a partial photo of theunderside? Is there a reason Sunshine is producing minimalist instructions these days?Thanks!Jerry Michels**************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 )





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Re: PRR FD2 [Was: Early Schnabel Cars]

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

PHIL MARCUS wrote:
The KCS built their own all welded hopper gondolas in 1932. They mounted them on the then new National B trucks. Innovative for a railroad.
Phil, there were numerous experimental and prototype cars like this. I was speaking of larger scale commercial production. Probably the biggest contributor was Milwaukee Road with their own welded designs, although it is noteworthy that no one really copied them.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: welded cars (was Re: PRR FD2 [Was: Early Schnabel Cars])

Tim O'Connor
 

I thought at least one of the F30 subclasses was welded, not cast.
Not so?
Tim O'

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Anthony Thompson <thompson@signaturepress.com>
Tim Barney wrote:
It was advanced for it's time, being all-welded when most cars (even
of similar type) were
riveted construction.
As Bruce Smith observed, this comment about welding is way wrong.
The first extensively welded freight cars were covered hoppers in the
mid-1930s. Because of all the welding done during WW II, it was a
fully accepted construction method after the war. Freight cars,
certainly by 1950, were being extensively welded, INCLUDING flat cars
of several types (though maybe not so much on the PRR). Not to take
anything away from the "Queen Mary," which was quite a project--just
that welding isn't really part of its eminence.

117981 - 118000 of 192633