Date   

Re: Freight car distribution

devansprr
 

--- In STMFC@..., <tmolsen@...> wrote:

I have been following this distribution business for quite some time
and there is one thing that I did not see that happened daily on the
Penn (and other roads) each day.

Each day, the yardmasters at the main terminals each day gathered
the foreign road empties that were not spoken for to be loaded and
placed them into outbound trains that were destined to the nearest
point of their home roads to get them off the property.

Reason: Per diem charges. These cars cost the company money every
day that they were on the property without a load to generate income
and you might say that they turned into pumpkins at midnight (every 24
hours).
Thanks Tom

I think I have read that while WWII was experiencing a car shortage,
there was a fundamental problem that the load traffic was biased
heavily EB, and that MTs had to be moved west quickly. Could explain
some of the photos? If the PRR in Philly had an MT NYC, it would be
sent North towards NYCity - an empty CB&Q would quickly be sent west
via Enola?

Thanks for the info,

Regards,
Dave Evans


Re: Freight car distribution

devansprr
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Brian J Carlson" <brian@...> wrote:

Just a reminder a bunch of Tim's data files, and other wheel reports are
saved in the files section of the group.

Brian J Carlson P.E.
Cheektowaga NY
Brian,

Thanks! I did a quick check of the '48 Potomac yard data - 1026 X cars
listed. A few significant variations from national averages. Several
smaller NE railroads seem over-represented. Will do a more detailed
analysis later. Need to get out my statistics book.

Dave Evans


Re: Freight car distribution

Bruce Smith
 

On Aug 12, 2008, at 9:50 PM, James Eckman wrote:

The cheaters way....

Pick a location and period you like to model and try and find a photo of
a nearby yard if possible.

Buy only the cars in the photo ;)

Jim Eckman
And model only that yard on that day ;^)

It certainly cannot be viewed as accurate for anything more, since yards, depending on where they are and their functions within that railroad may serve very different functions and handle very different subsets of cars.

We really have discussed this ad nauseum. Yard shots, train photos and wheel reports are all excellent tools, particularly to understand individual trains and days, but specific cars within those may represent the oddballs, the extremes, the "standard deviations" as it were, not the realistic population of that line over time. You may want to model a specific day with its specific cars and that's fine for a "railfanning" layout, but operationally, I find that extremely limited. I would much rather work from a representative pool of 500 or more cars, build trains according to the way in which the railroad did it, and watch what develops.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
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Re: RAILMODEL JOURNAL

asychis@...
 

Looking at the fragment below, has anyone considered the idea that perhaps
there just ISN'T much of a market (*) for articles like these, as evidenced
by the failure of RMJ, MM, and MRG and the absence of anything taking their
place?

I would think that it was when RMJ, MM and MRG stopped doing these extensive
articles on freight cars, or other historically-accurate subjects, that they
met their demise.

The success of RPCyc is pretty good evidence that there is a market for this
information. Prototype Railroad Modeling falls in the same category,
although with only two issues out, it's hard to say how it will fair in the long
run. Note to the both RPCyc and PRM have not specific publication deadlines.
Once sufficient material is collected, the "book" is published. I think this
is a good business model for the type of information we need. There is that
very important ingredient, time, that allows for well researched and
documented articles. The pressure to publish monthly might just be the key problem
with the other magazines; not enough time. Also, I don't think it helped
when RMJ started doing reprints. That soured me.

All in all, I think we are witnessing the evolution of the dissemination of
data-rich, historically-accurate, and well-written information on freight
cars and railroad operations. There will always be a need for MR and RMC, they
are gateways to those who's interest in model railroading and railroad
history may mature in the future. It is analogous to reading. We didn't start off
reading Gibbon's "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire," we might have
started with a Classic's Illustrated comic book.

Jerry Michels



**************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget?
Read reviews on AOL Autos.
(http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 )


Re: Freight car distribution

tmolsen@...
 

I have been following this distribution business for quite some time and there is one thing that I did not see that happened daily on the Penn (and other roads) each day.

Each day, the yardmasters at the main terminals each day gathered the foreign road empties that were not spoken for to be loaded and placed them into outbound trains that were destined to the nearest point of their home roads to get them off the property.

Reason: Per diem charges. These cars cost the company money every day that they were on the property without a load to generate income and you might say that they turned into pumpkins at midnight (every 24 hours).

At Philadelphia every day, a large portion of P9's consist was made up of foreign road equipment moving to their home roads. There was a train out of Enola each day called the "Buffalo Boxcar" that was made up of empty box cars moving o Buffalo to be returned to their home roads as soon as possible.

Regards,

Tom Olsen
7 Boundary Road, West Branch
Newark, Delaware, 19711-7479
(302) 738-4292
tmolsen@...


Re: trucks and paint for PRR H30 covered hopper

pennsylvania1954
 

Hi Mark--Sometime in 1953 PRR decided that covered hoppers should be
gray. The shadow keystone drawing for the H30 was issued in April,
1955. Any H30's requiring repaint between 1953 and April 1955 would
thus have been lettered with the black circle keystone scheme on a
light gray body, like the decals you have. Although this was not a
common scheme, 255284 with repaint/reweigh data of "P752 3-54" has
its photograph in The Keystone, Summer 2002, page 23. 255323 is on
page 28.

Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL


--- In STMFC@..., "Mark Pierce" <marcoperforar@...> wrote:

I've got a Funaro & Camerlengo kit #6841 of a Pennsylvania Railroad
H30
covered hopper with black circle Keystone decals. The instructions
are
insufficient to select the appropriate body color or trucks, so I
need
your help in answering these questions.
1. What is the appropriate body color? I presume it is light-
colored
since the lettering is black. (Instructions call for a brownish-red)
2. What period of time was the black Keystone scheme used on the
H30s?
3. What style trucks are appropriate for the model?
Thanks.
Mark Pierce


freight car distribution

Rob Kirkham <rdkirkham@...>
 

I'm one of a number of folks who benefited from exchange of data with Tim Gilbert, and also miss his very carefully thought through posts. It was of some assistance in developing my understanding of the Canadian scene, although the Canadian data was sparse by comparison.

In reference to Ed's note below, I have scanned and posted to the files section a couple of pages from a 1940 publication of the Dominion Bureau of Statistics. Its in a folder in the files section titled Freight Traffic Seasonality. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/files/Freight%20traffic%20seasonality/ These pages show graphically the shifting tide of different car loadings through the course of the year - showing the seasonality - at least in Canada. I suspect our Canadian winters had a greater influence on the movement of some traffic than would be experienced to the south, although I'm not sure how much is seasonality of traffic versus traffic disruption on account of winter.

I imagine similar data exists for the United States?

This data tells us nothing about distribution of cars per se, but I think in seasons when the flow of a particular traffic type diminished there might be the same sorts of effects as Dave Nelson and Tim attributed to economic effects - perhaps not statistically significant - I don't know.

Rob Kirkham

----- Original Message -----
From: "ed_mines" <ed_mines@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 10:36 AM
Subject: [STMFC] freight car distribution


Frieght car distribution in the steam was effected by the seasons,
particularly hoppers in the northeast.

When there was a shortage of hoppers in the dead of winter anthracite
carriers were in no hurry to return foreign road hoppers. There was
no reason to keep them (and pay demurrage) when the home road had an
excess of it's own hoppers.

I expect there must have been seasonable effects for reefers too,
depending on which crops were in season.

The box car shortage during and after WWII and the special exchange
rules it caused also effected freight car distribution.

Mike Brock's analysis of box car distribution makes sense. Businesses
would be more likely to purchase goods from the closest suppliers so
it is likely to find more regional cars than expected.

A couple of years ago Schuler posted consists of some Erie fast
freight cars that were anything but typical. They inluded a big block
of Swifts reefers being shipped empty from Chicago to Boston.

Ed


Re: Freight car distribution

leakinmywaders
 

Dave: As a matter of elementary statistics, given the number of
railroads whose reporting marks you are keeping an eye out for, you'd
clearly have to pore over well over a thousand car records before
you'd start to see a consistent or "normal" pattern for any but the
most locally abundant foreign roads.

But as to the main fiber of this thread, like some others here I'm
finding it elusive. isn't there simple fairly small-sample test for
the hypothesis of national "random mixture" of the XM boxcar fleet, if
that is indeed what this thread is all about? Namely, did the same 3
or 4 railroads consistently appear as the most frequent foreign road
XM boxcars across the traffic tallies of each major railroad in the
US? I'd venture the answer to that is a nope, although as an ideal
maybe it was more nearly true in the late 1940s-1950s than later. Is
this what Tim Gilbert's work was driving at?

I'm sorry I don't have any pre-1960 data to bring to this question.

Chris Frissell
Polson, MT

--- In STMFC@..., "devansprr" <devans1@...> wrote:

--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@> wrote:


Cars didn't travel randomly by DESIGN. They travelled randomly
because it was the EASIEST way to deal with cars. Every single
movement of a car costs real money -- crew time, ...


Re: Freight car distribution

Brian J Carlson <brian@...>
 

Just a reminder a bunch of Tim's data files, and other wheel reports are
saved in the files section of the group.

Brian J Carlson P.E.
Cheektowaga NY


Re: Freight car distribution

Brian J Carlson <brian@...>
 

I've stayed out of this discussion so far. As some of you know, I have been
using Tim and Dave's "populationist" hypothesis to develop my freight cat
fleet of approximately 350 boxcars, 500-600 cars total. I have compiled much
of Tim and Dave's work into MS Word files for reference. I have transcribed
the July 1957 ORER data for the "Large Steam Railroads" (63 RR in 1957 plus
some Regionals I added, Monon, Rutland etc) into an MS Excel file and
broken each railroad roster down. I am currently writing an article
summarizing what I have found, my methodology, assumptions, appropriate HO
models, pitfalls, personal preferences etc. I am hoping to present this at
Naperville or Cocoa if there is any interest, and publish it as an article
in one of the mags (MR RMC) since it has been a very interesting journey.
OK, I am an Engineer. I like numbers so may be it is only interesting to me.
(It's taken me about a year to get this far)

However, the point of my post is to say that I could share the MS Word files
with anyone who wants them off list. All they are is copies of the emails I
found important, but may be helpful if people are having trouble searching
the archives. I didn't copy everything but they give a good overview of Tim
and Dave's hypothesis in my opinion.

Finally Dave Nelson, can you contact me off list? Thanks

Brian J Carlson P.E.
Cheektowaga NY


Re: Freight car distribution

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Dave Evans wrote:
Thank-you for the education - I didn't realize the shipper could specify the entire route - my exposure in this area has been limited to car cards - which typically have just destination, and maybe an on-layout waypoint. As I mentioned, NOVICE...
Nothing wrong with learning by asking, Dave. We often take a shortcut on layouts by not giving real routings "beyond the layout," since many operators don't care and in any case it doesn't affect car handling ON the layout in most cases. But on a real waybill it is normally there, at least in the steam era, along with a GREAT deal of information we also omit (pricing, cargo weight, applicable tariff, surcharges, etc. etc.).

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Freight car distribution

devansprr
 

--- In STMFC@..., Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

Dave, the clerks do NOT route cars. They obey waybills. The
waybill specifies the entire route in most cases. An agent made out the
waybill, but did so according to shipper direction.
Tony,

Thank-you for the education - I didn't realize the shipper could
specify the entire route - my exposure in this area has been limited
to car cards - which typically have just destination, and maybe an
on-layout waypoint. As I mentioned, NOVICE...

Dave


Re: Freight car distribution

devansprr
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Chet French" <cfrench@...> wrote:


Group,

Five years ago I went through all the yard lists for one location,
(Forrest, IL on the Wabash) for an entire month (March 1955) focusing
on foreign house cars, mostly 40' with a few 50' cars. Over 800 car
representing 75 railroads are shown. The message number is 23571,
dated 9/15/03. I have lists for five more months 12/54, 2/55, 6/55,
8/55, and 6/62, but I haven't done the same exercise with any of them.

Chet French
Dixon, IL
Chet,

Thanks! I have not compiled 1955 fleet data, but if percentages are
similar to 1943, then the data in msg 23571 deviates from national
averages by factors of 2 or 3. NKP is several times more than RDG,
P&LE is more than RDG, and many other deviations, but the NKP and RDG
fleets were comparable in 1943 (possible NKP was much larger by '55?),
but I think P&LE was still smaller than RDG. Several RR's had greater
representation than the PRR (still the largest fleet?).

Thanks for the work!

Dave Evans


Re: Frt Car Distribution, diversions, routing et al

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Dan Holbrook wrote:
Yardmasters did not supply cars to industries. Unless it was a large industry with specific switching requirements most yardmasters did not have time nor want to deal with the industry/customer.
You are right, and I should not have implied that yardmasters themselves assigned any cars. I was thinking (obviously less clearly that I should) that yardmasters would have directed the work, but I'm well aware that the yard clerks would have been processing the empty car orders to hand over to the switch crews.
No one has said that the Car Service rules were NEVER followed, but quite a few former employees have said that no great effort was expended to follow them whenever cars were in short supply or time was tight. It sounds like you agree with that, Dan.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Freight car distribution

devansprr
 

--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:


Cars didn't travel randomly by DESIGN. They travelled randomly
because it was the EASIEST way to deal with cars. Every single
movement of a car costs real money -- crew time, fuel, and loco
time. Railroads who wasted money sorting cars based on reporting
marks (and for no other reason) would go out of business in a
big hurry.

Tim O'Connor
Tim,

Thanks for the explanation, although I think I've read posts of agent
mischief with car assignments and routing on the Op-Sig group, but
they were likely rare.

Your points make sense to me, but I'm still trying to understand why,
as I scan a bnch of pictures along the PRR main, L&N box cars seem to
outnumber NYC, yet NYC had nearly four times the fleet...

I'm beginning to suspect it is more a statistical issue. After viewing
over 100 box cars, there are a number of major roads where not a
single box car was observed. Conversly, I see a few instances of
smaller roads with two boxcars in sequence.

Thanks,Dave


Re: Freight car distribution

Chet French <cfrench@...>
 

Group,

Five years ago I went through all the yard lists for one location,
(Forrest, IL on the Wabash) for an entire month (March 1955) focusing
on foreign house cars, mostly 40' with a few 50' cars. Over 800 car
representing 75 railroads are shown. The message number is 23571,
dated 9/15/03. I have lists for five more months 12/54, 2/55, 6/55,
8/55, and 6/62, but I haven't done the same exercise with any of them.

Chet French
Dixon, IL


Black ATSF Hopper Info?

olin4812
 

Looking for photos and/or car numbers, and any info as to geography,
year or service assignment of ATSF hoppers painted black,
especially '34 AAR type offset triples (Ga-73 etc).

Many Thanks!
Olin Dirks
Omaha, NE


Re: Frt Car Distribution, diversions, routing et al

Greg Martin
 

Dan Holbrock writes:




"After 35 years of railroading and sitting in clerks, yardmasters, car
distributors, trainmasters chairs I'll throw in my two cents.

Yardmasters did not supply cars to industries. Unless it was a large
industry with specific switching requirements most yardmasters did
not have time nor want to deal with the industry/customer. Empties
on hand at a given terminal were assigned to car orders placed by
customers within the terminal complex. Keep in mind that this might
also entail supplying cars to locals operating out of the terminal
over 100 to 150 miles of a division. Normally this activity was done
by industry service clerks or local car distribution folks. Yes we
did deviate from planning but attempted based on the destination
specified by the industry, to find an appropriate Rule 1 or Rule 2
empty. Lacking this we found, or looked for, an appropriate home
road car. Also local conductors had a habit of providing empties to
shippers at their digression and not via the direction of the local
orders provided by the clerks. Yardmasters did appreciate the clerks
that went out of there way to make their switching easier by finding
cars in appropriate blocks to supply customers on car orders. Most
clerks new the short home routes for empties without looking at an
ORER. Usually this was specified in "tide" or "flow" instructions to
specific terminals to eliminate any confusion over "where" to send a
foreign empty. My early experience with the ORER was looking for
load limits and capacity on specific cars to fill car orders.

Shippers did specify routings but were not required to do so.
Shipper specified routings were more commonplace during the 40's and
50's and fell off during the 60's and 70's and shippers began to let
the railroads determine the best routing. In most cases the carrier
that originated the load tried to get the longest possible
routing "on-line" to get the largest division of revenue. However,
some customers liked to specify their routing to avoid either major
terminals or to pay back a marketing person.

Diversions were specified by the broker. However, a car could be
diverted once without cost to the broker providing the car was going
in a straight line movement between two end points. Example would be
diversion lumber moving from Pacific Northwest via MSTL to Peoria and
Peoria being the broker specified destination. It the car reached
Albert Lea, MN and was diverted to Indianapolis, IN for the final
customer the diversion was free. However, if the diversion was from
Albert Lea, MN to Sioux Falls, SD then, depending on era, was either
treated as a diversion with a specific charge, or as an entirely new
shipment because of the diversion being back in a westward movement.
Brokers made every attempt to sell their product en route and in a
linear fashion.

Tim Gilbert and I talked a number of times over the years. His
conclusions were based on careful analysis of data and his own
personal background. We are lucky to have had his insight into car
distribution and breakdown of ownership and use.

Dan Holbrook"

Dan,
I enjoyed your post as it seems to take a bit of the "random-ness" out of
Car application/distribution that I am certainly accustomed to and some sanity
and structure to the railroads, that some might think existed.
Local station clerks that I was familiar with (when there was such a thing
on the BN) were always acutely aware of the empty cars online (at least
locally) and never forgot to ask you the destination of the car. Whenever possible
they kept company cars online and looked for home road cars that were not
either assigned pool cars or special equipped/service cars. I was told by an
applicator that when cars are "long" we like to send our cars "long-east" and
when cars were "short" they stay online, the cars were your most valuable
asset, so they claimed, what good is a rate with no cars? If there were no cars
locally available then the clerk would call Fort Dirt and get in touch with
the applicator and have a car routed to the industry and apply a car order
number. You were expected to keep track of your car order number and the car
numbers assigned to that order. If a particular car didn't show you had to have
the car order number to identify it with. For some it seems a bit
complicated, but is became second nature. I don't believe it was much different 30 or 40
years prior.
Greg Martin






**************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget?
Read reviews on AOL Autos.
(http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 )


Re: Freight car distribution

James Eckman
 

The cheaters way....

Pick a location and period you like to model and try and find a photo of a nearby yard if possible.

Buy only the cars in the photo ;)

Jim Eckman


Re: Freight car distribution

Tim O'Connor
 

Kurt

Of the 533 saved emails from Tim Gilbert in my Eudora mail
boxes, maybe 200 are concerned with freight car distribution
and LCL...

But you are probably thinking of the old Freightcars list. I
have 57 monthly digests of the FCL on my hard drive, including
the best years of the FCL before Yahoo and STMFC. There's quite
a few more emails from Tim in there. All of it is indexed by
my Google desktop, but it's really too much information to
summarize.

Tim O'Connor

At 8/12/2008 10:11 PM Tuesday, you wrote:
I think they are referring to a previous USENET-based mailing list whose
archives is out in the ether somewhere. I occaisionally run across
individual threads when doing a google search, but I haven't stumbled onto a
reliable way to reference it as a whole.

KL

----- Original Message -----
From: Cyril and Lynn Durrenberger

You all keep saying to look at the past messages for some of this data. I
found a number of them, but I did not locate any that had the work that is
being sited. Could some one provide the message numbers to assist this
process.