Date   

Re: Question re Tichy USRA hopper - HO

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Jonathan Grant wrote:
"I have just completed a couple of Tichy USRA steel hoppers - the
original, not the rebuilt, and have a spare sheet of B&O decals from a
F&C hopper kit that I'd like to use to finish them off.

Does anyone know what the running numbers were for the B&Os USRA
hoppers and is there anywhere on the web with this information, and
for that matter the other USRA freight cars, for future reference."

The following cars were part of the B&O's allocation of USRA twins
built in 1919, Class N-17:
320000-320999, 1000 cars, Ralston Steel Car Company
321000-321499, 500 cars, Pressed Steel Car Company
321500-321599, 100 cars, Ralston Steel Car Company
321600-321899, 300 cars, ACF

The following cars were acquired in 1923 via the takeover of the
Morgantown and Kingswood:
324000-324399, 400 cars, Ralston Steel Car Company, ex-Morgantown &
Kingwood 4000-4399. Originally assigned as LV 27001-27400.
324400-324999, 600 cars, 1923, Standard Steel Car Company, ex-
Morgantown & Kingwood 4400-4999. Originally assigned as LV 27701-
28300.

These Class N-17A USRA copies built in 1923 were acquired from Bertha
Consumer:
426000-426299, 300 cars, Pressed Steel Car Company, ex-1-300

The following Class N-17B cars were the USRA allocation to the
Buffalo, Rochester & Pittsburgh and were acquired by the B&O via its
takeover of the BR&P in 1932:
726000-726499, 500 cars, Pressed Steel Car Company, ex-BR&P 55000-
55499
726500-726799, 300 cars, Pullman, ex-BR&P 55000-55499

Additionally, the ex-Buffalo and Susquehanna Class N-26 and N-26A
hoppers acquired in 1932 can be modeled from this kit:
N-26, 233100-233496, 397 cars, built 1923
N-26A, 233500-233699, 200 cars, built 1929

Last weekend, I gave a presentation on the B&O's USRA freight cars at
the B&ORRHS' Eastern Mini-Con at Harpers Ferry. I'll convert the
handout to PDF and post it to the group files section tomorrow
morning.

Can't help you with an online source for USRA freight cars; the
DEFINITIVE source is James E. Lane's article in Railroad History No.
128, Spring 1973. I cannot recommend this resource highly enough -
if you want to understand this subject, get a copy of this article.


Ben Hom


Re: A Purpose For Frt Car Distribution Studies. Was: Re: Re:Fwd: Re: Freigh

Ron Smith <rpsmith@...>
 

Also for B&O Funaro & Camerlingo has nice one Piece Body Models of M15K Boxcar, M15L/M Automobile Car, M50 Boxcar, and M53 Boxcars, these are all Wagontops.
Also they have One Piece Wagontop Covered Hoppers with both Small and Large Lettering.
If you call your order into F&C, you also get Buy 1 get 1 free.

Ron Smith
Carman UPRR

----- Original Message -----
From: Brian J Carlson
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2008 4:27 PM
Subject: Re: A Purpose For Frt Car Distribution Studies. Was: Re: [STMFC] Re:Fwd: Re: Freigh


Dave E and all. The national averages had been shown by Tim and Dave Nelson
to apply to boxcars and to a lesser extent flats. They shouldn't be applied
to gons, hoppers, tank cars, vinegar cars, etc. They also applied up to the
mid-late 1950's. Why? Well in the mid to late 50's you started to see more
specialty equipped cars that were assigned to specific industry's, and
industry pools.

As for the number of B&O boxcars I am afraid you will need to bite the
bullet. The M26 and subclasses (including M-27, M-27A) approached 16,000
copies. Add in the M-15 with 12,000(not sure how many were left unconverted
by the war though), and the roundroof cars (M-13, M-15 various subclasses,
M-53) there is quite a fleet. B&O cars appear in the background of many PRR
yard shots and freights. M-26B's are easy from Red Caboose, M-26D/E can be
modeled from Speedwitch, Westerfield has M-15's and Sunshine has M-27's so
modeling B&O isn't that hard.

Brian J Carlson P.E.
Cheektowaga NY


Re: A Purpose For Frt Car Distribution Studies. Was: Re: Re:Fwd: Re: Freigh

Brian J Carlson <brian@...>
 

Dave E and all. The national averages had been shown by Tim and Dave Nelson
to apply to boxcars and to a lesser extent flats. They shouldn't be applied
to gons, hoppers, tank cars, vinegar cars, etc. They also applied up to the
mid-late 1950's. Why? Well in the mid to late 50's you started to see more
specialty equipped cars that were assigned to specific industry's, and
industry pools.

As for the number of B&O boxcars I am afraid you will need to bite the
bullet. The M26 and subclasses (including M-27, M-27A) approached 16,000
copies. Add in the M-15 with 12,000(not sure how many were left unconverted
by the war though), and the roundroof cars (M-13, M-15 various subclasses,
M-53) there is quite a fleet. B&O cars appear in the background of many PRR
yard shots and freights. M-26B's are easy from Red Caboose, M-26D/E can be
modeled from Speedwitch, Westerfield has M-15's and Sunshine has M-27's so
modeling B&O isn't that hard.

Brian J Carlson P.E.
Cheektowaga NY


A Purpose For Frt Car Distribution Studies. Was: Re: Re:Fwd: Re: Freigh

devansprr
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Nelson" <Lake_Muskoka@...> wrote:

I don't recall Tim ever mentioning why he was interested in the
topic but I
do recall why I was: I had changed scale and as that fact had put me
in the
market for new rolling stock I wanted some guidelines that would
serve me
when making purchases.

As to why the topic returns to this list with some regularity I can only
hazzard a guess: other people are in the same boat today as I was then.

VMMV.
Dave,

That is precisely my situation. For me, filling in the large quantity
of WWII era NYC and B&O box cars that the national percentage theory
would require is not an insignificant effort. I'd hate to expend
effort on cars that would be over-represented when the fleet is
complete. Modeling the PRR I'm really lucky because of the Red Caboose
X29's, while building a bunch of X25's looks like a serious
undertaking. But if on any given day, the deviation from averages is
significant, then more latitude is possible, although that day may
make my layout look like it is from the movie groundhog day...

Clearly the trains you want to run can lead to big deviations that
should be ok - I hope to include a WWII tank car train - which means I
will have tank cars way out of proportion to an expected fleet. And
since the PRR pushed 800 loaded tanks over Gallitizin every day (and
800 empties the other way), I expect that train can be legitimately
operated more than once a session. The tougher issue is the mix of
tank car types when trying to build a full train. That seems to be a
big challenge because I haven't seen a lot of data on the precentages
of tank car types during that era. Unless there is a neat message out
there in the archive - time to experiment with the search engine again.

Dave Evans


Re: A Purpose For Frt Car Distribution Studies. Was: Re: Re:Fwd: Re: Freight car distribution

Dave Nelson
 

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mike
Brock:

Gene Green writes:
"All this discussion of freight car distribution has what purpose? A
purpose does not seem self-evident to me."

A very legitimate and timely question.

OK...here's an opinion...and it seems obvious. The data developed by Dave
Nelson and Tim Gilbert have resulted in a theory that the % of a foreign
RR's box cars on a given RR will match the % of the foreign RR's % of the
national box car fleet. Tim noted:

"The freight car data which Dave Nelson & I have parsed from wheel reports
and other car reports will not solve Mike Brock's "California Zephyr"
problems. All they represent is a pool of cars which were reported by a
railroad over a course of time."

---------- begin reply--------
I don't recall Tim ever mentioning why he was interested in the topic but I
do recall why I was: I had changed scale and as that fact had put me in the
market for new rolling stock I wanted some guidelines that would serve me
when making purchases.

As to why the topic returns to this list with some regularity I can only
hazzard a guess: other people are in the same boat today as I was then.

VMMV.

As for Mike's later comment that perhaps a years time is necessary to get
sightings that conform to the hypothesis, I disagree. It appears around
800-1000 cars will come fairly close. More is obviously going to be better.
Whether any one location will see that many cars in a day, a week, or a year
is discussing, IMO, the unit of measure, not the sample size. Or if you
want, translate the unit of measure it into how many operating sessions,
with the sample size being some portion of your total foreign road boxcar &
flatcar roster.

Dave Nelson


Re: DS/SS split 1938 help needed

laramielarry <ostresh@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Ray Breyer <rtbsvrr69@...> wrote:
Hi Larry,

I dug through my files over lunch and can fill a couple of holes,
at least partially:

IC, XM, Box, 245451-246200, 36'4.5", 8'0", 6'0", 80000, 664, NA
Ex-46492-46848, double sheathed, built by the IC between 1905-
1907 (source: 1915 ICC valuation report for the IC)

IC, XM, Box, 247001-247600, 36'4.5", 8'0", 6'0", 80000, 513, NA
Double sheathed (source: 1927 IC equipment list)

IC, XM, Box, 330001-331800, 36'4.5", 8'0", 5'6", 80000, 794, NA
Double sheathed (source: 1927 IC equipment list)

MP, XA, Auto, 82500-83249, 40'6", 10'0", 11'0", 80000, 735, 52
Single sheathed, built by Mt Vernon in 1927 (source: 1951 MP
diagram book)
Thanks Ray!

Here are the summary tables for the IC with your data added in:

Number:
IC____Jan-38____Apr-42____Jan-45____Apr-45____Jul-50
DS____4,242____1,435____1,098____153____65
SS____9,071____8,576____9,328____9,026____8,362
Steel____1,801____8,781____8,745____12,465____12,441
Unknown____2,011____1,496____7____0____0
Total____17,125____20,288____19,178____21,644____20,868

Percentage:
IC____Jan-38____Apr-42____Jan-45____Apr-45____Jul-50
DS____24.8%____7.1%____5.7%____0.7%____0.3%
SS____53.0%____42.3%____48.6%____41.7%____40.1%
Steel____10.5%____43.3%____45.6%____57.6%____59.6%
Unknown____11.7%____7.4%____0.0%____0.0%____0.0%
Total____100.0%____100.0%____100.0%____100.0%____100.0%


Here are the summary tables for the MP, including your data:

Number:
MP____Jan-38____Apr-42____Jan-45____Apr-45____Jul-50
DS____1,955____1,905____1,689____1,166____1,041
SS____11,544____11,836____11,990____11,864____11,831
Steel____2,500____2,615____3,581____5,156____5,150
Unknown____688____244____33____6____6
Total____16,687____16,600____17,293____18,192____18,028

Percentage:
MP____Jan-38____Apr-42____Jan-45____Apr-45____Jul-50
DS____11.7%____11.5%____9.8%____6.4%____5.8%
SS____69.2%____71.3%____69.3%____65.2%____65.6%
Steel____15.0%____15.8%____20.7%____28.3%____28.6%
Unknown____4.1%____1.5%____0.2%____0.0%____0.0%
Total____100.0%____100.0%____100.0%____100.0%____100.0%

Best wishes,
Larry Ostresh
Laramie, Wyoming


Re: A Purpose For Frt Car Distribution Studies. Was: Re: Re:Fwd: Re: Freight car distribution

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

John Stokes writes:

"When you get to the end of your commentary on freight car percentages and what UP might have been running in a consist in a given time period, you end up with virtually nothing concrete but using the national averages to play around with it, and vary from day to day, and let it rip."

Well...not quite. I think I said that I would modify the theory to increase the % of closely associated RRs...Milw, C&NW, CB&Q and SP...and basically use the other per centages as projected by the theory. I would add the necessary cars to simulate in a compressed mode a few unusual trains like the case of a lumber train with about 30% of it in the form of SP box cars.

"The other factor that seems to be evident is that the UP is not typical of many railroads, given its national significance and overland route that channeled a lot of freight across the West, and the same time period for the CB&Q would produce a very different mix of cars, given the nature of the Q and the types of traffic it generated, as an example comparison."

Possibly so...although I have not analyzed CB&Q consists. My guess is that Santa Fe would be closer to the UP, absent, of course, an increase in Milw, CB&Q, SP and UP cars.

"All of this is speculation piled on infinite possibilities based on very small snapshots of what happened in a really great big country over thousands of days, every one of them different and reflective of an ever changing rail scene and traffic and commodity trends."

True enough. I have frequently noted the tiny size of the data. Still...it IS interesting that the data does support the theory fairly well.

"If spending inordinate amounts of time agonizing over this and trying to match real consists on your favorite railroad on a given day or month or year floats your boat, then go to it, but I think Gene has a cogent question, and I have seen no good answers yet."

Well, anyone who knows me knows that I don't agonize over anything associated with this hobby. You might note that I changed the subject heading to "A purpose..." My message explains why I think the theory is useful and the way I would and do apply it. If others find it to not be worthwhile...that's up to them.

Another aspect of studying frt conductor books, BTW, is that, in the UP case, some RRs are not represented to the extent of their %. NP boxcars, for example, are not as common in the 35 UP trains as the theory projects...in direct conflict with Brock's Fifth Rule of Frt Cars.

Mike Brock


Re: Frt Car Distribution, diversions, routing et al

John Hile <john66h@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "lstt100" <lstt100@...> wrote:

Shippers did specify routings but were not required to do so.
Shipper specified routings were more commonplace during the 40's and
50's

Diversions were specified by the broker. Example would be
diversion lumber moving from Pacific Northwest





Following is from the "American Association of Railroad
Superintendents, Proceedings of the Fifty-Eighth Annual Meeting and
Committee Reports, 1954" and a discussion regarding efficient freight
car handling.

Among those in attendance at the Pacific Coast Post-Convention Meeting
were C. H. Grant, general superintendent of transportation, SP; L. P.
Hopkins, superintendent, SP; Grant S. Allen, superintendent, WP; Frank
Chase, superintendent, NYC; R. N. Whitman, superintendent, GN.


Part of their discussion regarding Rule 2...

MR. HOPKINS: We try to load them in the direction they belong, but we
have difficulty, and I imagine all other railroads have difficulty.
You put a car into an industry, he calls for a certain route, then
after he loads the car he changes his mind and sends it another route.
Rule 2 is out as far as he is concerned.

From an operating standpoint or competitive standpoint, you can't tell
this fellow you're not going to take that car, or you're going to
unload it, because he's going to send that car out in spite of
everything. I'm trying to make my statement as much from the facts as
we can. There isn't any sense in these railroad people who are
sitting here coming up and saying they literally comply with Rule 2,
because we know they don't. And we have much evidence of it in some
of our Northwest neighbors. I don't want to mention this fellow
Whitman (laughter), but we send automobiles up to Washington and the
automobile cars don't come back to us. They're loaded on a connecting
line and they don't move over our railroad. A car is ten days getting
back to our points in California where they would be back in three or
four days if they went by direct route.

MR. GRANT: I work out here and I think we have a condition in the
Pacific Northwest that is unlike anywhere else in the United States in
the handling of cars. We have up in this country what are known as
brokers in the handling of lumber. In some places they are referred
to as rollers. They buy cars of lumber without any market whatsoever
for them. They go out to a mill and buy a carload of green
two-by-fours or some particular kind of lumber, and they'll bill it to
some point - for instance, they'll go out and order a car for
Cleveland, Ohio. They know very well that they have no intention of
ever getting that car to Cleveland, Ohio, unless there's an unforeseen
act of God like and earthquake or something, but nevertheless they
bill the car to Cleveland, Ohio.

It isn't ten miles out of the terminal before they divert it, maybe to
Saskatchewan, or some other place. We have on our line many times 25,
30, 40 or 50 of these rollers running around and they lay in our
terminals for sometimes a month while waiting for diversion, or until
they get a sale. We're one of the worst offenders on violation of car
service rules, but it's due entirely to the lumber brokers.

We have it in Washington, we have it in Oregon, we have it in
California. We used to have 40 or 50 cars laying around at Gerber and
a lot of them in Sacramento, a lot in Bakersfield, and as far down as
Los Angeles. But I don't worry too much about it because we're really
not at fault.

The fellow comes in and puts in a firm car order, for a car for a
certain point. Naturally, we'll furnish a New York Central car.
Perhaps it's going to that point. But he's just as apt to turn around
and bill that car to Hollywood, Cal., and then we have to answer for
misuse of foreign equipment.

It's something we've fought for years and we just can't combat it, we
can't beat it. These fellows are just in the lumber market.

MR. ALLEN: You have the same thing with the hauling of other
commodities, canned goods and all that sort of thing.

MR. GRANT: It's not so bad.

MR. ALLEN: No, it's not so bad, lumber is the worst one.

MR. CHASE: We have the same situation in the East, and you have the
same situation on every railroad in the country. For instance, the
Reading right now has over six thousand cars of anthracite coal. It
is the same in all parts of the country, but it's a condition we live
with and do the best we can.




John Hile
Blacksburg, VA


Question re Tichy USRA hopper - HO

Jonathan Grant <jonagrant@...>
 

Hello all.

I have just completed a couple of Tichy USRA steel hoppers - the
original, not the rebuilt, and have a spare sheet of B&O decals from a
F&C hopper kit that I'd like to use to finish them off.

Does anyone know what the running numbers were for the B&Os USRA
hoppers and is there anywhere on the web with this information, and for
that matter the other USRA freight cars, for future reference.

Thanks,

Jon


A Purpose For Frt Car Distribution Studies. Was: Re: Re:Fwd: Re: Freight car distribution

boyds1949 <E27ca@...>
 

The discussions on this list should serve two purposes: accurate and
complete (so far as is possible) knowledge of the prototype freight
car fleet and how to accurately model them.

Determining as best we can how the cars were actually distributed
should be just as important as knowing the type of underframe on a
particular class of freight cars.

How modelers use this information may vary. I may not have the
skills or patience to accurately model every aspect of an FGEX
refrigerator car as well as many others on this list, but my starting
point still has to be an accurate set of data.

None of us may be able to develop a fleet which exactly reflects
percentages of the national ownership but we need to have the data to
provide an accurate starting point. If nothing else, having access
to accurate data on the distribution of freight cars can help us keep
from going overboard when some exciting new model comes out.

John King







--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, John Stokes <ggstokes@...> wrote:

Mike,

When you get to the end of your commentary on freight car
percentages and what UP might have been running in a consist in a
given time period, you end up with virtually nothing concrete but
using the national averages to play around with it, and vary from day
to day, and let it rip. This reminds me of the old saw about if you
let a group of monkeys play with typewriters long enough they will
end up writing the great American novel, by pure random chance. Build
up a fleet of over a 1000 cars from all roads and then mix them up
endlessly over time and maybe, just maybe, on one day you will have
replicated an actual consist. Otherwise you are guessing and trying
to create some semblance of reality, but reality is always waiting
for the next roll of the dice.


The other factor that seems to be evident is that the UP is not
typical of many railroads, given its national significance and
overland route that channeled a lot of freight across the West, and
the same time period for the CB&Q would produce a very different mix
of cars, given the nature of the Q and the types of traffic it
generated, as an example comparison. All of this is speculation piled
on infinite possibilities based on very small snapshots of what
happened in a really great big country over thousands of days, every
one of them different and reflective of an ever changing rail scene
and traffic and commodity trends. If spending inordinate amounts of
time agonizing over this and trying to match real consists on your
favorite railroad on a given day or month or year floats your boat,
then go to it, but I think Gene has a cogent question, and I have
seen no good answers yet.John Stokes
Bellevue, WA



To: STMFC@...: brockm@...: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 13:18:54 -0400Subject:
A Purpose For Frt Car Distribution Studies. Was: Re: [STMFC] Re:Fwd:
Re: Freight car distribution




Gene Green writes:"All this discussion of freight car distribution
has what purpose? Apurpose does not seem self-evident to me."A very
legitimate and timely question.OK...here's an opinion...and it seems
obvious. The data developed by Dave Nelson and Tim Gilbert have
resulted in a theory that the % of a foreign RR's box cars on a given
RR will match the % of the foreign RR's % of the national box car
fleet. Tim noted:"The freight car data which Dave Nelson & I have
parsed from wheelreports and other car reports will not solve Mike
Brock's "CaliforniaZephyr" problems. All they represent is a pool of
cars which werereported by a railroad over a course of time."Tim was
responding to a comment that I made that my op sessions always
replicate May 14, 1953. While I did say that, it was tongue in
cheek...I actually simulate the entire month of May, 1953. But his
point was, I think, that the theory could predict and, therefore,
project the foreign box car population over a relatively long period
of time...I think a year was suggested. The problem with this concept
is that frt train consists, at least on the UP in Wyoming, were very
variable. IOW, 30% of one train might be UP box cars while another
might have no UP box cars although 50% of the train was box cars.
About 8% of the box cars should be UP [ home road % of about twice
the national % ]. As I pointed out, major RRs interchanging with a
RR...at least in UP's case...seem to be more represented than that of
the national %...as in the case of SP. The problem is, even with
compression of model train lengths and compression of the number of
trains present during an op session, the need to have enough cars to
match a particular train...like the lumber trains with 31 SP box cars
in 1949...means that a rather large car base would be required...in
this case, at least 1000 box cars IF that base reflected the national
per centages. So...what does one do? Well, I for one recognize that
the value of the theory and statistical data is that it shows that
box cars went everywhere. The numbers of different foreign box cars
on a given layout probably reflect the RR being modeled. IOW, there
might be a "local" factor at work as in the case of UP and Milw,
CB&Q, C&NW and certainly SP and I would have more of them than the
theory calls for....probably calling for 1.5 times the national %.
Why? I don't care. It's just the way it was. At the same time if I
wanted to simulate a particular train...compressed...I would simply
have enough of those cars available as well and I wouldn't be
concerned that the total box car fleet would not reflect the national
per centages. IOW, my box car fleet probably won't exceed 150 cars[
hmmm...guess I'll have to count ] .I realize that we have a great
deal more information about UP in Wyoming than might be available for
other RRs and what applies for the UP trunk line across WY might not
apply to other areas. After all, everyone knows that at least one of
every class of frt car went over Sherman Hill at some time. Heck,
even General Tojo went over Sherman Hill.Mike Brock






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Canadian Empties

John Hile <john66h@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

we have been told by
several people on this list in the past, that Canadian cars could only
move in the U.S. to destinations to unload, then return empty




Following is from the "American Association of Railroad
Superintendents, Proceedings of the Fifty-Eighth Annual Meeting and
Committee Reports, 1954" during a discussion regarding efficient
handling of freight cars.

Among those in attendance at the Pacific Coast Post-Convention Meeting
were C. H. Grant, general superintendent of transportation, SP,; L.P.
Hopkins, superintendent, SP; R.N. Whitman, superintendent, GN.

Part of their discussion is as follows:


MR. GRANT: We have, as I have stated before, very plain and frank
directives from the AAR and also from the Canadian roads. It's a
year-round order, I think, that we have to return Canadian cars, and
we really catch it when we don't return Canadian cars empty unless we
have loading for them on Canadian line. Of course, Mr. Hopkins'
glasses get fogged up (laughter) or he gets these things mixed up on
the switch list and they load three of four now and then, but that's
just a mistake. In further amplifying that, in the case of a shortage
of cars in the States, frequently Mr. Gass, the AAR officer who puts
out these car directives, will permit us to load Canadian cars. But
it's usually for a very short duration, when they're not short of cars
in Canada.

MEMBER: In certain territories.

MR. GRANT: In certain territories, yes.

MR. HOPKINS: As far as Canadian cars are concerned, we follow Rule 2
very closely. There may be a slip-up now and then, but on the
over-all we either get them back empty or we get them loaded in the
direction that is covered by Rule 2.



John Hile
Blacksburg, VA


Re: DS/SS split 1938 help needed

Ray Breyer
 

laramielarry <ostresh@uwyo.edu> wrote:
>>I am transferring the box, auto and ventilator car data from the
January 1938 ORER into an Excel spreadsheet, and adding sheathing
type and build/rebuild date as auxiliary information.
I have the sheathing type for about 95% of the U.S. fleet, and am
requesting your help in reducing the number of "unknowns".
>>Can someone identify whether these cars are DS, SS, or Steel and what
their build or rebuild dates were?
Hi Larry,

I dug through my files over lunch and can fill a couple of holes, at least partially:

IC, XM, Box, 245451-246200, 36'4.5", 8'0", 6'0", 80000, 664, NA
Ex-46492-46848, double sheathed, built by the IC between 1905-1907 (source: 1915 ICC valuation report for the IC)

IC, XM, Box, 247001-247600, 36'4.5", 8'0", 6'0", 80000, 513, NA
Double sheathed (source: 1927 IC equipment list)

IC, XM, Box, 330001-331800, 36'4.5", 8'0", 5'6", 80000, 794, NA
Double sheathed (source: 1927 IC equipment list)

MP, XA, Auto, 82500-83249, 40'6", 10'0", 11'0", 80000, 735, 52
Single sheathed, built by Mt Vernon in 1927 (source: 1951 MP diagram book)


Hope this helps!

Ray Breyer


Re: A Purpose For Frt Car Distribution Studies. Was: Re: Re:Fwd: Re: Freight car distribution

Stokes John
 

Mike,

When you get to the end of your commentary on freight car percentages and what UP might have been running in a consist in a given time period, you end up with virtually nothing concrete but using the national averages to play around with it, and vary from day to day, and let it rip. This reminds me of the old saw about if you let a group of monkeys play with typewriters long enough they will end up writing the great American novel, by pure random chance. Build up a fleet of over a 1000 cars from all roads and then mix them up endlessly over time and maybe, just maybe, on one day you will have replicated an actual consist. Otherwise you are guessing and trying to create some semblance of reality, but reality is always waiting for the next roll of the dice.


The other factor that seems to be evident is that the UP is not typical of many railroads, given its national significance and overland route that channeled a lot of freight across the West, and the same time period for the CB&Q would produce a very different mix of cars, given the nature of the Q and the types of traffic it generated, as an example comparison. All of this is speculation piled on infinite possibilities based on very small snapshots of what happened in a really great big country over thousands of days, every one of them different and reflective of an ever changing rail scene and traffic and commodity trends. If spending inordinate amounts of time agonizing over this and trying to match real consists on your favorite railroad on a given day or month or year floats your boat, then go to it, but I think Gene has a cogent question, and I have seen no good answers yet.John Stokes
Bellevue, WA



To: STMFC@yahoogroups.comFrom: brockm@brevard.netDate: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 13:18:54 -0400Subject: A Purpose For Frt Car Distribution Studies. Was: Re: [STMFC] Re:Fwd: Re: Freight car distribution




Gene Green writes:"All this discussion of freight car distribution has what purpose? Apurpose does not seem self-evident to me."A very legitimate and timely question.OK...here's an opinion...and it seems obvious. The data developed by Dave Nelson and Tim Gilbert have resulted in a theory that the % of a foreign RR's box cars on a given RR will match the % of the foreign RR's % of the national box car fleet. Tim noted:"The freight car data which Dave Nelson & I have parsed from wheelreports and other car reports will not solve Mike Brock's "CaliforniaZephyr" problems. All they represent is a pool of cars which werereported by a railroad over a course of time."Tim was responding to a comment that I made that my op sessions always replicate May 14, 1953. While I did say that, it was tongue in cheek...I actually simulate the entire month of May, 1953. But his point was, I think, that the theory could predict and, therefore, project the foreign box car population over a relatively long period of time...I think a year was suggested. The problem with this concept is that frt train consists, at least on the UP in Wyoming, were very variable. IOW, 30% of one train might be UP box cars while another might have no UP box cars although 50% of the train was box cars. About 8% of the box cars should be UP [ home road % of about twice the national % ]. As I pointed out, major RRs interchanging with a RR...at least in UP's case...seem to be more represented than that of the national %...as in the case of SP. The problem is, even with compression of model train lengths and compression of the number of trains present during an op session, the need to have enough cars to match a particular train...like the lumber trains with 31 SP box cars in 1949...means that a rather large car base would be required...in this case, at least 1000 box cars IF that base reflected the national per centages. So...what does one do? Well, I for one recognize that the value of the theory and statistical data is that it shows that box cars went everywhere. The numbers of different foreign box cars on a given layout probably reflect the RR being modeled. IOW, there might be a "local" factor at work as in the case of UP and Milw, CB&Q, C&NW and certainly SP and I would have more of them than the theory calls for....probably calling for 1.5 times the national %. Why? I don't care. It's just the way it was. At the same time if I wanted to simulate a particular train...compressed...I would simply have enough of those cars available as well and I wouldn't be concerned that the total box car fleet would not reflect the national per centages. IOW, my box car fleet probably won't exceed 150 cars[ hmmm...guess I'll have to count ] .I realize that we have a great deal more information about UP in Wyoming than might be available for other RRs and what applies for the UP trunk line across WY might not apply to other areas. After all, everyone knows that at least one of every class of frt car went over Sherman Hill at some time. Heck, even General Tojo went over Sherman Hill.Mike Brock


A Purpose For Frt Car Distribution Studies. Was: Re: Re:Fwd: Re: Freight car distribution

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Gene Green writes:

"All this discussion of freight car distribution has what purpose? A
purpose does not seem self-evident to me."

A very legitimate and timely question.

OK...here's an opinion...and it seems obvious. The data developed by Dave Nelson and Tim Gilbert have resulted in a theory that the % of a foreign RR's box cars on a given RR will match the % of the foreign RR's % of the national box car fleet. Tim noted:

"The freight car data which Dave Nelson & I have parsed from wheel
reports and other car reports will not solve Mike Brock's "California
Zephyr" problems. All they represent is a pool of cars which were
reported by a railroad over a course of time."

Tim was responding to a comment that I made that my op sessions always replicate May 14, 1953. While I did say that, it was tongue in cheek...I actually simulate the entire month of May, 1953. But his point was, I think, that the theory could predict and, therefore, project the foreign box car population over a relatively long period of time...I think a year was suggested. The problem with this concept is that frt train consists, at least on the UP in Wyoming, were very variable. IOW, 30% of one train might be UP box cars while another might have no UP box cars although 50% of the train was box cars. About 8% of the box cars should be UP [ home road % of about twice the national % ]. As I pointed out, major RRs interchanging with a RR...at least in UP's case...seem to be more represented than that of the national %...as in the case of SP. The problem is, even with compression of model train lengths and compression of the number of trains present during an op session, the need to have enough cars to match a particular train...like the lumber trains with 31 SP box cars in 1949...means that a rather large car base would be required...in this case, at least 1000 box cars IF that base reflected the national per centages. So...what does one do? Well, I for one recognize that the value of the theory and statistical data is that it shows that box cars went everywhere. The numbers of different foreign box cars on a given layout probably reflect the RR being modeled. IOW, there might be a "local" factor at work as in the case of UP and Milw, CB&Q, C&NW and certainly SP and I would have more of them than the theory calls for....probably calling for 1.5 times the national %. Why? I don't care. It's just the way it was. At the same time if I wanted to simulate a particular train...compressed...I would simply have enough of those cars available as well and I wouldn't be concerned that the total box car fleet would not reflect the national per centages. IOW, my box car fleet probably won't exceed 150 cars[ hmmm...guess I'll have to count ] .

I realize that we have a great deal more information about UP in Wyoming than might be available for other RRs and what applies for the UP trunk line across WY might not apply to other areas. After all, everyone knows that at least one of every class of frt car went over Sherman Hill at some time. Heck, even General Tojo went over Sherman Hill.

Mike Brock


September, 2008, RMC...

Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
 

Has an excellent Ted Culotta article on modelling post-war AAR steel
boxcars. And kitbashing a PRR H25 hopper car. But also have a look at
page 107. Although he cars modelled on this page are out of our era,
note the weathering techniques that Butch Eyler has used on a Railbox
and Railgon car to simulate 'ghosted' lettering on these cars.

Has anyone tried this on STMFC's?

Steve Lucas.


Re: DS/SS split 1938 help needed

laramielarry <ostresh@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "al_brown03" <abrown@...> wrote:

Road, AAR, Kind, Series, IL, IH, Door, Capy, Qty 1938, Qty 1942
ACL, VM, Box, 34000-36184, 36'0", 7'5", 6'0", 60000, 782, NA
ACL 35699, RMC 12/88 p14: double sheathed. Lines South 4/89 p16:
built 1908-10.

NC&StL, XM, Box, 13500-15099, 36'0", 8'0", 6'0", 80000, 1311, 352
MM 7/90 pp50-51: these were Fowler SS cars built 1909-13. Rebuilt
with steel sides, and renumbered in the 20000 series, 1939-47.

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.
Thanks Al. Thanks to you and Ray Breyer we now have a nearly complete
record of the sheathing type of box, auto and ventilator cars for the
ACL from 1938 to 1950:

Number of cars
ACL____Jan-38____Apr-42____Jan-45____Apr-45____Jul-50
DS____8,653____3,568____2,936____2,413____2,382
SS____3,642____2,008____0____44____22
Steel____935____5,907____9,645____9,585____11,366
Unknown____2____0____0____0____0
Total____13,232____11,483____12,581____12,042____13,770

Percentage
ACL____Jan-38____Apr-42____Jan-45____Apr-45____Jul-50
DS____65.4%____31.1%____23.3%____20.0%____17.3%
SS____27.5%____17.5%____0.0%____0.4%____0.2%
Steel____7.1%____51.4%____76.7%____79.6%____82.5%
Unknown____0.0%____0.0%____0.0%____0.0%____0.0%
Total____100.0%____100.0%____100.0%____100.0%____100.0%


Here are similar tables for the NC&StL:

Number of cars
NC&StL____Jan-38____Apr-42____Jan-45____Apr-45____Jul-50
DS____560____246____181____162____161
SS____2,753____1,787____1,447____926____577
Steel____545____1,598____2,229____2,737____2,713
Other____0____0____0____0____0
Unknown____180____17____0____0____0
Total____4,038____3,648____3,857____3,825____3,451

Percentage
NC&StL____Jan-38____Apr-42____Jan-45____Apr-45____Jul-50
DS____13.9%____6.7%____4.7%____4.2%____4.7%
SS____68.2%____49.0%____37.5%____24.2%____16.7%
Steel____13.5%____43.8%____57.8%____71.6%____78.6%
Other____0.0%____0.0%____0.0%____0.0%____0.0%
Unknown____4.5%____0.5%____0.0%____0.0%____0.0%
Total____100.0%____100.0%____100.0%____100.0%____100.0%

Best wishes,
Larry Ostresh
Laramie, Wyoming


Re: What HO truck(s) do we STMFC'ers want?

eabracher@...
 

In a message dated 8/13/08 10:31:43 PM, thompson@signaturepress.com writes:


Would those be the H.J. Small rigid truck? They survived a long
time in SPMW use.
Those are the ones. I'm sure all SP fans with MOW equipment can use them.

eric


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budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos.

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Car distribution vs era

tmolsen@...
 

Dan and all,

I started on the Penn in the Philly area in '65, working in the block stations that serviced local and major yards in addition to the main lines. Most of the people I worked with all started on the road back in the late 30s and 40s. Working with local and road crews either making up trains or making pick ups and set offs and putting up with irascible yardmasters, who thought that they were "GOD" and always right, was just in a days work, but it was also an education.

Yardmasters always had ten trains to get out their garden before they would take one in, not caring that you had one of main tracks blocked up with trains waiting, some on short time.

The problem here is that for the most part we are trying to replicate freight car movements from 50+ years ago with little information to go on.

As a Pennsy modeler of the late 1953 period, I am lucky as we have several guides to work with. We have system freight schedule books which give the routings, yards where pickups and set outs are made and the way the road freights were blocked. In addition to the freight schedules in the Employee Timetables, there is the book called the C.T.1000 which lists every branch, yard, main line and what industries are located on them. This book also came in regional issues as well. These were updated and issued about every 5 years. And in some cases, we have found local freight schedule books showing routing and schedules. Of course, you have to realize that the schedule timing is tentative and was used as a guide to the train departures and arrivals. Knowing what industries are in any given location, you can then research the type of products that they made, shipped and received.

Since I model what was the Middle Division, I can run just about any type of freight car that was in service in my time frame, even some of those roads which Richard Hendrickson calls those "yall roads." This is because the "Middle" was more of a conduit that tied the western end of the system to the eastern end. When watching the videos, it is like looking at the catalog of cars from Sunshine, Westerfield, F&C and just about every other car manufacturer. Even with the through freight operations, there was still enough local industries at various towns on the route to keep a vigorous local freight operation going.

Again, the number of loads and empties on road trains varied in that period along with the various commodities that either were shipped in or shipped out of each of these small towns. For example, Lewistown had five branches that emanated from the yard there, with industries on all of them. Trains operations were pretty much the same as any on another big road, whether it was the PRR, the NYC, Santa Fe or the UP. Each had their own idiosyncrasies, but the operations were about the same.

To replicate any type of balance or type of equipment on a daily or even weekly basis is very difficult, even with the information that we have. You are never going to get it right, as every day was different and varied week to week, year to year, depending on the country's business cycles. Yes, maybe the best way to guess at what would be close would be to have snapshots of what the yards looked like over a given time period. The Kline/Culotta book put out by the NMRA is about as close to this as you can get, but again, you are still guessing as it is only one maybe 6 month period in 1947.

I would think that at this point this discussion has run it's course as it is about the tenth time this subject has come up. It is a fascinating discourse, but for now I think that everyone should take a deep breath, print out the information from the list archives, work out what works for them, and go back to building freight cars. Good Luck guys!

Regards to all,

Tom Olsen
7 Boundary Road, West Branch
Newark, Delaware, 19711-7479
(302) 738-4292
tmolsen@udel.edu


Re: What HO truck(s) do we STMFC'ers want?

tmolsen@...
 

Fred and List,

I corresponded with Brian a few months ago in regard to a solid bearing 70-Ton, three spring truck that can be used under gondolas and other cars. He said that it was on his to-do list, but he had several other projects ahead of it for as he put it, "the great unwashed", to get out of the way first.

I would also like to see several versions of solid bearing Andrews trucks in addition to the 70-Tonners and other trucks mentioned in yours and Rich Orr's post.

I have just received 14 pair of the A.R.A. 50-Ton Tahoe "Buckeye" solid bearing trucks with .088 scale wheelsets and detachable brake shoes. I have another order to send to Andy Carlson for another 22 pair for myself and two other friends.

These new trucks roll like lightning and the sideframes are crisp and clean. Just what you expect from Brian. I figure that we can keep him in business for at least another 50 years turning out new versions of trucks.

Regards,

Tom Olsen
7 Boundary Road, West Branch
Newark, Delaware, 19711-7479
(302) 738-4292
tmolsen@udel.edu


Re: Frt Car Distribution, diversions, routing et al

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Tom Olsen wrote:
On many branches the conductor was the first line person who dealt with the traffic person at the various industries that his switching job worked. He knew what type of equipment that particular plant needed and if they were in need of a switch to keep the plant fluid or if they needed a car to load out, he provided it. The paper work was done by him and turned in at the end of the trick when the job returned to the yard. A lot of customer service was done by the people on the ground and in this case, the railroad had it written up to provide incentive to their employees.
On that Burbank Local job, I remember the conductor going into the Burbank depot to collect a handful of waybills from the agent, I assume those were loads to pull. That's where I left them, as I had to bicycle home for dinner.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history

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