Date   

STOCK CARS IN NRHS BULLETIN

Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Friends,

Yesterday I received the Fall 2007 NRHS BULLETIN. This issue included an 18+ page article on stock cars and stock handling. It is will illustrated with photos of cars from several eras, four general arrangement car drawings (two MP), and a great aerial shot of the Kansas City Stock Yards. As a sort of sidebar, there is a four-page color photo feature on loading cattle on the UP at Island Park, Idaho. Although the latter article describes operations in 1971, the loading procedure was much the same as it had been in the steam era and the photos are worthy of study for their color.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff


Re: A Purpose For Frt Car Distribution Studies. Was: Re: Re:Fwd: Re: Freigh

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Bruce Smith writes:

"So for us lucky PRR modelers, we get to model a great percentage of the
national fleet as it traversed Pennsy rails, but someone modeling, say the
ATSF, would see very few of those cars. So in this particular case, both
time and location are absolutely critical!"

The same apparently for Mopac [ or was it Frisco? ] and B&O...if the photos are any indication.

"Speaking of which - when are we gonna see those STC radial course tank
cars? <G>"

I expect to receive one any day now.

Mike Brock


Re: A Purpose For Frt Car Distribution Studies. Was: Re: Re:Fwd: Re: Freight car distribution

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Dave Nelson writes:

"As for Mike's later comment that perhaps a years time is necessary to get
sightings that conform to the hypothesis, I disagree. It appears around
800-1000 cars will come fairly close."

First, note that my data is about 1/35 of the train consists for only about a month and a half. What I was trying to say is that during this period of time, the number of appearances by SP box cars is about 2.6 times what the theory predicts. I think you and/or Tim suggested that my data may contain a few unusual trains and that, over a longer period of time, say a year, the total number of SP box cars would fit better with the theory's prediction. I don't, of course, know that to be true and I don't really care because I'm not interested in train operations over that long a time. What we do know is that those three UP frt trains with way over the predicted number of SP box cars did occur and being a prototype modeler, I want the opportunity to model them...without having to have 1000 box cars in the car base. For all we know, during the next month and a half even more SP box cars appeared in Wyoming.

Theories are fine but I prefer them to be empirically developed to match real data. Hence, I am convinced, barring data to the contrary, that "closely associated" RRs will be represented by a higher % than their national %...say somewhere between 1.5 to 2 times. Why? I don't really care.

Mike Brock


A Purpose For Frt Car Distribution Studies. Was: Re: Re:Fwd: Re: Freigh

boyds1949 <E27ca@...>
 

Bruce,

One caution. For those Pro-Custom/F&C wagontops. Suggest you either
use the Sunshine decals or piece together as much as possible of the
lettering from the Speedwitch M-26 decals. The decals in the Pro
Custom kits are crude, to put it kindly.

John King

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Smith" <smithbf@...> wrote:

On Thu, August 14, 2008 6:27 pm, Brian J Carlson wrote:
As for the number of B&O boxcars I am afraid you will need to
bite the
bullet. The M26 and subclasses (including M-27, M-27A) approached
16,000
copies. Add in the M-15 with 12,000(not sure how many were left
unconverted by the war though), and the roundroof cars (M-13, M-
15
various subclasses,
M-53) there is quite a fleet. B&O cars appear in the background
of many
PRR yard shots and freights. M-26B's are easy from Red Caboose,
M-26D/E
can be
modeled from Speedwitch, Westerfield has M-15's and Sunshine has
M-27's so
modeling B&O isn't that hard.
Brian, Dave, Folks,

So, here's a philosophical question... For my foreign boxcar
fleet, I
need roughly 5 B&O boxcars based on the national fleet. So what
cars?
Well the WWII fleet consisted of the M15, M26 and rebuilt M15 and
M53
wagontops. The knee jerk response of many modelers might be to use
the
iconic wagontops. After all, you can identify them as B&O without
even
reading the reporting marks! But I can't resist the temptation to
educate
and the wagontops turn out to be a cliche. Their combined made up
just
over 10% (or 1 in 10) of the B&Os boxcar fleet... in reality I
don't need
ANY! The M15 was about 25% of the fleet and the M26 was about 50%
of the
fleet. So, the ICONIC B&O boxcar is the M26. Lets add to that
while the
B&O was known for the Duryea underframe, only about 1/3 of the M26
cars
have this u/f.

OK, so back to the 5 cars I need for B&O. Seems like the M26A and
M26D I
built for Virtual Modelers will work, plus maybe another M26 or
M26A might
be good. Likewise, a Westerfield M15 would be a good idea. That
leaves
one or two slots left, depending on how many M26s I have. So, I
broke
down and filled that spot with an M53, after all, it is an icon
<G>.
However, due to the size of my fleet that car will not appear every
ops
session, but several B&O cars will. What that means is that
operators
will get the CORRECT impression that B&O cars were relatively
common, but
that wagontops were not. Below are the fleet numbers I worked with
for
B&O boxcars

Regards
Bruce
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

M15D 1213 Wood-Dbl Shth-Westerfield kit
M15H 1165 Wood-Dbl Shth-Westerfield kit
M15J 2164 Wood-Dbl Shth-Westerfield kit
M15F 2355 Wood-Dbl Shth-Westerfield kit
Total M15 -6897

M26* 1971 like PRR X29
M26A* 3460 like PRR X29 – RC #7003 undec
M26B* 989 like PRR X29
M26C* 991 like PRR X29
M26D* 5443 like PRR X29, Duryea underframe – Speedwitch
M26E* 986 like PRR X29, Duryea underframe –
Speedwitch
total M26 - 13840

M15K 1227 wagon top rebuild
M53* 1886 wagon top--Pro Custom Hobbies kit, F&C kit
M53A* 997 wagon top--Pro Custom Hobbies kit
Total wagon tops - 2883

M55A 900 built 1941: 10'-0" IH, Murphy panel roof

Total B&O boxcars 25747


Re: A Purpose For Frt Car Distribution Studies. Was: Re: Re:Fwd: Re: Freigh

Bruce Smith
 

On Thu, August 14, 2008 6:27 pm, Brian J Carlson wrote:
As for the number of B&O boxcars I am afraid you will need to bite the
bullet. The M26 and subclasses (including M-27, M-27A) approached 16,000
copies. Add in the M-15 with 12,000(not sure how many were left
unconverted by the war though), and the roundroof cars (M-13, M-15
various subclasses,
M-53) there is quite a fleet. B&O cars appear in the background of many
PRR yard shots and freights. M-26B's are easy from Red Caboose, M-26D/E
can be
modeled from Speedwitch, Westerfield has M-15's and Sunshine has M-27's so
modeling B&O isn't that hard.
Brian, Dave, Folks,

So, here's a philosophical question... For my foreign boxcar fleet, I
need roughly 5 B&O boxcars based on the national fleet. So what cars?
Well the WWII fleet consisted of the M15, M26 and rebuilt M15 and M53
wagontops. The knee jerk response of many modelers might be to use the
iconic wagontops. After all, you can identify them as B&O without even
reading the reporting marks! But I can't resist the temptation to educate
and the wagontops turn out to be a cliche. Their combined made up just
over 10% (or 1 in 10) of the B&Os boxcar fleet... in reality I don't need
ANY! The M15 was about 25% of the fleet and the M26 was about 50% of the
fleet. So, the ICONIC B&O boxcar is the M26. Lets add to that while the
B&O was known for the Duryea underframe, only about 1/3 of the M26 cars
have this u/f.

OK, so back to the 5 cars I need for B&O. Seems like the M26A and M26D I
built for Virtual Modelers will work, plus maybe another M26 or M26A might
be good. Likewise, a Westerfield M15 would be a good idea. That leaves
one or two slots left, depending on how many M26s I have. So, I broke
down and filled that spot with an M53, after all, it is an icon <G>.
However, due to the size of my fleet that car will not appear every ops
session, but several B&O cars will. What that means is that operators
will get the CORRECT impression that B&O cars were relatively common, but
that wagontops were not. Below are the fleet numbers I worked with for
B&O boxcars

Regards
Bruce
Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

M15D 1213 Wood-Dbl Shth-Westerfield kit
M15H 1165 Wood-Dbl Shth-Westerfield kit
M15J 2164 Wood-Dbl Shth-Westerfield kit
M15F 2355 Wood-Dbl Shth-Westerfield kit
Total M15 -6897

M26* 1971 like PRR X29
M26A* 3460 like PRR X29 � RC #7003 undec
M26B* 989 like PRR X29
M26C* 991 like PRR X29
M26D* 5443 like PRR X29, Duryea underframe � Speedwitch
M26E* 986 like PRR X29, Duryea underframe � Speedwitch
total M26 - 13840

M15K 1227 wagon top rebuild
M53* 1886 wagon top--Pro Custom Hobbies kit, F&C kit
M53A* 997 wagon top--Pro Custom Hobbies kit
Total wagon tops - 2883

M55A 900 built 1941: 10'-0" IH, Murphy panel roof

Total B&O boxcars 25747


Re: A Purpose For Frt Car Distribution Studies. Was: Re: Re:Fwd: Re: Freigh

Bruce Smith
 

On Thu, August 14, 2008 5:24 pm, devansprr wrote:
Clearly the trains you want to run can lead to big deviations that
should be ok - I hope to include a WWII tank car train - which means I
will have tank cars way out of proportion to an expected fleet. And
since the PRR pushed 800 loaded tanks over Gallitizin every day (and
800 empties the other way), I expect that train can be legitimately
operated more than once a session. The tougher issue is the mix of
tank car types when trying to build a full train. That seems to be a
big challenge because I haven't seen a lot of data on the precentages
of tank car types during that era.
Dave,

Tank cars on the PRR during WWII are not a "deviation", they simply are
not part of the national fleet model for boxcars. They have their own
model. The data on the fleet has been provided in the archives, but if
you can't find it I'll try to remember to send it to you off-list. As for
tank cars being over-represented, that's only if you consider the national
fleet to be evenly distributed. That would be true for boxcars and mostly
true for flats and reefers, but not at all true for tank cars. As I
alluded to in an earlier message a large portion of the national fleet of
tank cars was concentrated in a series of linear routes between the gulf
coast oil fields and the north eastern refineries, and once the big inch
pipeline was finished, between the end of the pipeline and the refineries.
So for us lucky PRR modelers, we get to model a great percentage of the
national fleet as it traversed Pennsy rails, but someone modeling, say the
ATSF, would see very few of those cars. So in this particular case, both
time and location are absolutely critical!

Speaking of which - when are we gonna see those STC radial course tank
cars? <G>

Regards
Bruce

Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


Re: Question re Tichy USRA hopper - HO

NicholasF
 

You may also find this resource useful:

http://www.borhs.org/Archives/keysercardept.pdf
The 1948 Keyser Car Shop photo book. Pages 31 and 32 have good shots
of N-17s in the 13 Great States Scheme.

Take Care
-Nick Fry
Archivist
Director at Large
B&O Railroad Historical Society
http://www.borhs.org

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "benjaminfrank_hom" <b.hom@...> wrote:

Jonathan Grant wrote:
"I have just completed a couple of Tichy USRA steel hoppers - the
original, not the rebuilt, and have a spare sheet of B&O decals from a
F&C hopper kit that I'd like to use to finish them off.

Does anyone know what the running numbers were for the B&Os USRA
hoppers and is there anywhere on the web with this information, and
for that matter the other USRA freight cars, for future reference."

The following cars were part of the B&O's allocation of USRA twins
built in 1919, Class N-17:
320000-320999, 1000 cars, Ralston Steel Car Company
321000-321499, 500 cars, Pressed Steel Car Company
321500-321599, 100 cars, Ralston Steel Car Company
321600-321899, 300 cars, ACF

The following cars were acquired in 1923 via the takeover of the
Morgantown and Kingswood:
324000-324399, 400 cars, Ralston Steel Car Company, ex-Morgantown &
Kingwood 4000-4399. Originally assigned as LV 27001-27400.
324400-324999, 600 cars, 1923, Standard Steel Car Company, ex-
Morgantown & Kingwood 4400-4999. Originally assigned as LV 27701-
28300.

These Class N-17A USRA copies built in 1923 were acquired from Bertha
Consumer:
426000-426299, 300 cars, Pressed Steel Car Company, ex-1-300

The following Class N-17B cars were the USRA allocation to the
Buffalo, Rochester & Pittsburgh and were acquired by the B&O via its
takeover of the BR&P in 1932:
726000-726499, 500 cars, Pressed Steel Car Company, ex-BR&P 55000-
55499
726500-726799, 300 cars, Pullman, ex-BR&P 55000-55499

Additionally, the ex-Buffalo and Susquehanna Class N-26 and N-26A
hoppers acquired in 1932 can be modeled from this kit:
N-26, 233100-233496, 397 cars, built 1923
N-26A, 233500-233699, 200 cars, built 1929

Last weekend, I gave a presentation on the B&O's USRA freight cars at
the B&ORRHS' Eastern Mini-Con at Harpers Ferry. I'll convert the
handout to PDF and post it to the group files section tomorrow
morning.

Can't help you with an online source for USRA freight cars; the
DEFINITIVE source is James E. Lane's article in Railroad History No.
128, Spring 1973. I cannot recommend this resource highly enough -
if you want to understand this subject, get a copy of this article.


Ben Hom


Re: Question re Tichy USRA hopper - HO

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Jonathan Grant wrote:
"I have just completed a couple of Tichy USRA steel hoppers - the
original, not the rebuilt, and have a spare sheet of B&O decals from a
F&C hopper kit that I'd like to use to finish them off.

Does anyone know what the running numbers were for the B&Os USRA
hoppers and is there anywhere on the web with this information, and
for that matter the other USRA freight cars, for future reference."

The following cars were part of the B&O's allocation of USRA twins
built in 1919, Class N-17:
320000-320999, 1000 cars, Ralston Steel Car Company
321000-321499, 500 cars, Pressed Steel Car Company
321500-321599, 100 cars, Ralston Steel Car Company
321600-321899, 300 cars, ACF

The following cars were acquired in 1923 via the takeover of the
Morgantown and Kingswood:
324000-324399, 400 cars, Ralston Steel Car Company, ex-Morgantown &
Kingwood 4000-4399. Originally assigned as LV 27001-27400.
324400-324999, 600 cars, 1923, Standard Steel Car Company, ex-
Morgantown & Kingwood 4400-4999. Originally assigned as LV 27701-
28300.

These Class N-17A USRA copies built in 1923 were acquired from Bertha
Consumer:
426000-426299, 300 cars, Pressed Steel Car Company, ex-1-300

The following Class N-17B cars were the USRA allocation to the
Buffalo, Rochester & Pittsburgh and were acquired by the B&O via its
takeover of the BR&P in 1932:
726000-726499, 500 cars, Pressed Steel Car Company, ex-BR&P 55000-
55499
726500-726799, 300 cars, Pullman, ex-BR&P 55000-55499

Additionally, the ex-Buffalo and Susquehanna Class N-26 and N-26A
hoppers acquired in 1932 can be modeled from this kit:
N-26, 233100-233496, 397 cars, built 1923
N-26A, 233500-233699, 200 cars, built 1929

Last weekend, I gave a presentation on the B&O's USRA freight cars at
the B&ORRHS' Eastern Mini-Con at Harpers Ferry. I'll convert the
handout to PDF and post it to the group files section tomorrow
morning.

Can't help you with an online source for USRA freight cars; the
DEFINITIVE source is James E. Lane's article in Railroad History No.
128, Spring 1973. I cannot recommend this resource highly enough -
if you want to understand this subject, get a copy of this article.


Ben Hom


Re: A Purpose For Frt Car Distribution Studies. Was: Re: Re:Fwd: Re: Freigh

Ron Smith <rpsmith@...>
 

Also for B&O Funaro & Camerlingo has nice one Piece Body Models of M15K Boxcar, M15L/M Automobile Car, M50 Boxcar, and M53 Boxcars, these are all Wagontops.
Also they have One Piece Wagontop Covered Hoppers with both Small and Large Lettering.
If you call your order into F&C, you also get Buy 1 get 1 free.

Ron Smith
Carman UPRR

----- Original Message -----
From: Brian J Carlson
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2008 4:27 PM
Subject: Re: A Purpose For Frt Car Distribution Studies. Was: Re: [STMFC] Re:Fwd: Re: Freigh


Dave E and all. The national averages had been shown by Tim and Dave Nelson
to apply to boxcars and to a lesser extent flats. They shouldn't be applied
to gons, hoppers, tank cars, vinegar cars, etc. They also applied up to the
mid-late 1950's. Why? Well in the mid to late 50's you started to see more
specialty equipped cars that were assigned to specific industry's, and
industry pools.

As for the number of B&O boxcars I am afraid you will need to bite the
bullet. The M26 and subclasses (including M-27, M-27A) approached 16,000
copies. Add in the M-15 with 12,000(not sure how many were left unconverted
by the war though), and the roundroof cars (M-13, M-15 various subclasses,
M-53) there is quite a fleet. B&O cars appear in the background of many PRR
yard shots and freights. M-26B's are easy from Red Caboose, M-26D/E can be
modeled from Speedwitch, Westerfield has M-15's and Sunshine has M-27's so
modeling B&O isn't that hard.

Brian J Carlson P.E.
Cheektowaga NY


Re: A Purpose For Frt Car Distribution Studies. Was: Re: Re:Fwd: Re: Freigh

Brian J Carlson <brian@...>
 

Dave E and all. The national averages had been shown by Tim and Dave Nelson
to apply to boxcars and to a lesser extent flats. They shouldn't be applied
to gons, hoppers, tank cars, vinegar cars, etc. They also applied up to the
mid-late 1950's. Why? Well in the mid to late 50's you started to see more
specialty equipped cars that were assigned to specific industry's, and
industry pools.

As for the number of B&O boxcars I am afraid you will need to bite the
bullet. The M26 and subclasses (including M-27, M-27A) approached 16,000
copies. Add in the M-15 with 12,000(not sure how many were left unconverted
by the war though), and the roundroof cars (M-13, M-15 various subclasses,
M-53) there is quite a fleet. B&O cars appear in the background of many PRR
yard shots and freights. M-26B's are easy from Red Caboose, M-26D/E can be
modeled from Speedwitch, Westerfield has M-15's and Sunshine has M-27's so
modeling B&O isn't that hard.

Brian J Carlson P.E.
Cheektowaga NY


A Purpose For Frt Car Distribution Studies. Was: Re: Re:Fwd: Re: Freigh

devansprr
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Nelson" <Lake_Muskoka@...> wrote:

I don't recall Tim ever mentioning why he was interested in the
topic but I
do recall why I was: I had changed scale and as that fact had put me
in the
market for new rolling stock I wanted some guidelines that would
serve me
when making purchases.

As to why the topic returns to this list with some regularity I can only
hazzard a guess: other people are in the same boat today as I was then.

VMMV.
Dave,

That is precisely my situation. For me, filling in the large quantity
of WWII era NYC and B&O box cars that the national percentage theory
would require is not an insignificant effort. I'd hate to expend
effort on cars that would be over-represented when the fleet is
complete. Modeling the PRR I'm really lucky because of the Red Caboose
X29's, while building a bunch of X25's looks like a serious
undertaking. But if on any given day, the deviation from averages is
significant, then more latitude is possible, although that day may
make my layout look like it is from the movie groundhog day...

Clearly the trains you want to run can lead to big deviations that
should be ok - I hope to include a WWII tank car train - which means I
will have tank cars way out of proportion to an expected fleet. And
since the PRR pushed 800 loaded tanks over Gallitizin every day (and
800 empties the other way), I expect that train can be legitimately
operated more than once a session. The tougher issue is the mix of
tank car types when trying to build a full train. That seems to be a
big challenge because I haven't seen a lot of data on the precentages
of tank car types during that era. Unless there is a neat message out
there in the archive - time to experiment with the search engine again.

Dave Evans


Re: A Purpose For Frt Car Distribution Studies. Was: Re: Re:Fwd: Re: Freight car distribution

Dave Nelson
 

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mike
Brock:

Gene Green writes:
"All this discussion of freight car distribution has what purpose? A
purpose does not seem self-evident to me."

A very legitimate and timely question.

OK...here's an opinion...and it seems obvious. The data developed by Dave
Nelson and Tim Gilbert have resulted in a theory that the % of a foreign
RR's box cars on a given RR will match the % of the foreign RR's % of the
national box car fleet. Tim noted:

"The freight car data which Dave Nelson & I have parsed from wheel reports
and other car reports will not solve Mike Brock's "California Zephyr"
problems. All they represent is a pool of cars which were reported by a
railroad over a course of time."

---------- begin reply--------
I don't recall Tim ever mentioning why he was interested in the topic but I
do recall why I was: I had changed scale and as that fact had put me in the
market for new rolling stock I wanted some guidelines that would serve me
when making purchases.

As to why the topic returns to this list with some regularity I can only
hazzard a guess: other people are in the same boat today as I was then.

VMMV.

As for Mike's later comment that perhaps a years time is necessary to get
sightings that conform to the hypothesis, I disagree. It appears around
800-1000 cars will come fairly close. More is obviously going to be better.
Whether any one location will see that many cars in a day, a week, or a year
is discussing, IMO, the unit of measure, not the sample size. Or if you
want, translate the unit of measure it into how many operating sessions,
with the sample size being some portion of your total foreign road boxcar &
flatcar roster.

Dave Nelson


Re: DS/SS split 1938 help needed

laramielarry <ostresh@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Ray Breyer <rtbsvrr69@...> wrote:
Hi Larry,

I dug through my files over lunch and can fill a couple of holes,
at least partially:

IC, XM, Box, 245451-246200, 36'4.5", 8'0", 6'0", 80000, 664, NA
Ex-46492-46848, double sheathed, built by the IC between 1905-
1907 (source: 1915 ICC valuation report for the IC)

IC, XM, Box, 247001-247600, 36'4.5", 8'0", 6'0", 80000, 513, NA
Double sheathed (source: 1927 IC equipment list)

IC, XM, Box, 330001-331800, 36'4.5", 8'0", 5'6", 80000, 794, NA
Double sheathed (source: 1927 IC equipment list)

MP, XA, Auto, 82500-83249, 40'6", 10'0", 11'0", 80000, 735, 52
Single sheathed, built by Mt Vernon in 1927 (source: 1951 MP
diagram book)
Thanks Ray!

Here are the summary tables for the IC with your data added in:

Number:
IC____Jan-38____Apr-42____Jan-45____Apr-45____Jul-50
DS____4,242____1,435____1,098____153____65
SS____9,071____8,576____9,328____9,026____8,362
Steel____1,801____8,781____8,745____12,465____12,441
Unknown____2,011____1,496____7____0____0
Total____17,125____20,288____19,178____21,644____20,868

Percentage:
IC____Jan-38____Apr-42____Jan-45____Apr-45____Jul-50
DS____24.8%____7.1%____5.7%____0.7%____0.3%
SS____53.0%____42.3%____48.6%____41.7%____40.1%
Steel____10.5%____43.3%____45.6%____57.6%____59.6%
Unknown____11.7%____7.4%____0.0%____0.0%____0.0%
Total____100.0%____100.0%____100.0%____100.0%____100.0%


Here are the summary tables for the MP, including your data:

Number:
MP____Jan-38____Apr-42____Jan-45____Apr-45____Jul-50
DS____1,955____1,905____1,689____1,166____1,041
SS____11,544____11,836____11,990____11,864____11,831
Steel____2,500____2,615____3,581____5,156____5,150
Unknown____688____244____33____6____6
Total____16,687____16,600____17,293____18,192____18,028

Percentage:
MP____Jan-38____Apr-42____Jan-45____Apr-45____Jul-50
DS____11.7%____11.5%____9.8%____6.4%____5.8%
SS____69.2%____71.3%____69.3%____65.2%____65.6%
Steel____15.0%____15.8%____20.7%____28.3%____28.6%
Unknown____4.1%____1.5%____0.2%____0.0%____0.0%
Total____100.0%____100.0%____100.0%____100.0%____100.0%

Best wishes,
Larry Ostresh
Laramie, Wyoming


Re: A Purpose For Frt Car Distribution Studies. Was: Re: Re:Fwd: Re: Freight car distribution

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

John Stokes writes:

"When you get to the end of your commentary on freight car percentages and what UP might have been running in a consist in a given time period, you end up with virtually nothing concrete but using the national averages to play around with it, and vary from day to day, and let it rip."

Well...not quite. I think I said that I would modify the theory to increase the % of closely associated RRs...Milw, C&NW, CB&Q and SP...and basically use the other per centages as projected by the theory. I would add the necessary cars to simulate in a compressed mode a few unusual trains like the case of a lumber train with about 30% of it in the form of SP box cars.

"The other factor that seems to be evident is that the UP is not typical of many railroads, given its national significance and overland route that channeled a lot of freight across the West, and the same time period for the CB&Q would produce a very different mix of cars, given the nature of the Q and the types of traffic it generated, as an example comparison."

Possibly so...although I have not analyzed CB&Q consists. My guess is that Santa Fe would be closer to the UP, absent, of course, an increase in Milw, CB&Q, SP and UP cars.

"All of this is speculation piled on infinite possibilities based on very small snapshots of what happened in a really great big country over thousands of days, every one of them different and reflective of an ever changing rail scene and traffic and commodity trends."

True enough. I have frequently noted the tiny size of the data. Still...it IS interesting that the data does support the theory fairly well.

"If spending inordinate amounts of time agonizing over this and trying to match real consists on your favorite railroad on a given day or month or year floats your boat, then go to it, but I think Gene has a cogent question, and I have seen no good answers yet."

Well, anyone who knows me knows that I don't agonize over anything associated with this hobby. You might note that I changed the subject heading to "A purpose..." My message explains why I think the theory is useful and the way I would and do apply it. If others find it to not be worthwhile...that's up to them.

Another aspect of studying frt conductor books, BTW, is that, in the UP case, some RRs are not represented to the extent of their %. NP boxcars, for example, are not as common in the 35 UP trains as the theory projects...in direct conflict with Brock's Fifth Rule of Frt Cars.

Mike Brock


Re: Frt Car Distribution, diversions, routing et al

John Hile <john66h@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "lstt100" <lstt100@...> wrote:

Shippers did specify routings but were not required to do so.
Shipper specified routings were more commonplace during the 40's and
50's

Diversions were specified by the broker. Example would be
diversion lumber moving from Pacific Northwest





Following is from the "American Association of Railroad
Superintendents, Proceedings of the Fifty-Eighth Annual Meeting and
Committee Reports, 1954" and a discussion regarding efficient freight
car handling.

Among those in attendance at the Pacific Coast Post-Convention Meeting
were C. H. Grant, general superintendent of transportation, SP; L. P.
Hopkins, superintendent, SP; Grant S. Allen, superintendent, WP; Frank
Chase, superintendent, NYC; R. N. Whitman, superintendent, GN.


Part of their discussion regarding Rule 2...

MR. HOPKINS: We try to load them in the direction they belong, but we
have difficulty, and I imagine all other railroads have difficulty.
You put a car into an industry, he calls for a certain route, then
after he loads the car he changes his mind and sends it another route.
Rule 2 is out as far as he is concerned.

From an operating standpoint or competitive standpoint, you can't tell
this fellow you're not going to take that car, or you're going to
unload it, because he's going to send that car out in spite of
everything. I'm trying to make my statement as much from the facts as
we can. There isn't any sense in these railroad people who are
sitting here coming up and saying they literally comply with Rule 2,
because we know they don't. And we have much evidence of it in some
of our Northwest neighbors. I don't want to mention this fellow
Whitman (laughter), but we send automobiles up to Washington and the
automobile cars don't come back to us. They're loaded on a connecting
line and they don't move over our railroad. A car is ten days getting
back to our points in California where they would be back in three or
four days if they went by direct route.

MR. GRANT: I work out here and I think we have a condition in the
Pacific Northwest that is unlike anywhere else in the United States in
the handling of cars. We have up in this country what are known as
brokers in the handling of lumber. In some places they are referred
to as rollers. They buy cars of lumber without any market whatsoever
for them. They go out to a mill and buy a carload of green
two-by-fours or some particular kind of lumber, and they'll bill it to
some point - for instance, they'll go out and order a car for
Cleveland, Ohio. They know very well that they have no intention of
ever getting that car to Cleveland, Ohio, unless there's an unforeseen
act of God like and earthquake or something, but nevertheless they
bill the car to Cleveland, Ohio.

It isn't ten miles out of the terminal before they divert it, maybe to
Saskatchewan, or some other place. We have on our line many times 25,
30, 40 or 50 of these rollers running around and they lay in our
terminals for sometimes a month while waiting for diversion, or until
they get a sale. We're one of the worst offenders on violation of car
service rules, but it's due entirely to the lumber brokers.

We have it in Washington, we have it in Oregon, we have it in
California. We used to have 40 or 50 cars laying around at Gerber and
a lot of them in Sacramento, a lot in Bakersfield, and as far down as
Los Angeles. But I don't worry too much about it because we're really
not at fault.

The fellow comes in and puts in a firm car order, for a car for a
certain point. Naturally, we'll furnish a New York Central car.
Perhaps it's going to that point. But he's just as apt to turn around
and bill that car to Hollywood, Cal., and then we have to answer for
misuse of foreign equipment.

It's something we've fought for years and we just can't combat it, we
can't beat it. These fellows are just in the lumber market.

MR. ALLEN: You have the same thing with the hauling of other
commodities, canned goods and all that sort of thing.

MR. GRANT: It's not so bad.

MR. ALLEN: No, it's not so bad, lumber is the worst one.

MR. CHASE: We have the same situation in the East, and you have the
same situation on every railroad in the country. For instance, the
Reading right now has over six thousand cars of anthracite coal. It
is the same in all parts of the country, but it's a condition we live
with and do the best we can.




John Hile
Blacksburg, VA


Question re Tichy USRA hopper - HO

Jonathan Grant <jonagrant@...>
 

Hello all.

I have just completed a couple of Tichy USRA steel hoppers - the
original, not the rebuilt, and have a spare sheet of B&O decals from a
F&C hopper kit that I'd like to use to finish them off.

Does anyone know what the running numbers were for the B&Os USRA
hoppers and is there anywhere on the web with this information, and for
that matter the other USRA freight cars, for future reference.

Thanks,

Jon


A Purpose For Frt Car Distribution Studies. Was: Re: Re:Fwd: Re: Freight car distribution

boyds1949 <E27ca@...>
 

The discussions on this list should serve two purposes: accurate and
complete (so far as is possible) knowledge of the prototype freight
car fleet and how to accurately model them.

Determining as best we can how the cars were actually distributed
should be just as important as knowing the type of underframe on a
particular class of freight cars.

How modelers use this information may vary. I may not have the
skills or patience to accurately model every aspect of an FGEX
refrigerator car as well as many others on this list, but my starting
point still has to be an accurate set of data.

None of us may be able to develop a fleet which exactly reflects
percentages of the national ownership but we need to have the data to
provide an accurate starting point. If nothing else, having access
to accurate data on the distribution of freight cars can help us keep
from going overboard when some exciting new model comes out.

John King







--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, John Stokes <ggstokes@...> wrote:

Mike,

When you get to the end of your commentary on freight car
percentages and what UP might have been running in a consist in a
given time period, you end up with virtually nothing concrete but
using the national averages to play around with it, and vary from day
to day, and let it rip. This reminds me of the old saw about if you
let a group of monkeys play with typewriters long enough they will
end up writing the great American novel, by pure random chance. Build
up a fleet of over a 1000 cars from all roads and then mix them up
endlessly over time and maybe, just maybe, on one day you will have
replicated an actual consist. Otherwise you are guessing and trying
to create some semblance of reality, but reality is always waiting
for the next roll of the dice.


The other factor that seems to be evident is that the UP is not
typical of many railroads, given its national significance and
overland route that channeled a lot of freight across the West, and
the same time period for the CB&Q would produce a very different mix
of cars, given the nature of the Q and the types of traffic it
generated, as an example comparison. All of this is speculation piled
on infinite possibilities based on very small snapshots of what
happened in a really great big country over thousands of days, every
one of them different and reflective of an ever changing rail scene
and traffic and commodity trends. If spending inordinate amounts of
time agonizing over this and trying to match real consists on your
favorite railroad on a given day or month or year floats your boat,
then go to it, but I think Gene has a cogent question, and I have
seen no good answers yet.John Stokes
Bellevue, WA



To: STMFC@...: brockm@...: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 13:18:54 -0400Subject:
A Purpose For Frt Car Distribution Studies. Was: Re: [STMFC] Re:Fwd:
Re: Freight car distribution




Gene Green writes:"All this discussion of freight car distribution
has what purpose? Apurpose does not seem self-evident to me."A very
legitimate and timely question.OK...here's an opinion...and it seems
obvious. The data developed by Dave Nelson and Tim Gilbert have
resulted in a theory that the % of a foreign RR's box cars on a given
RR will match the % of the foreign RR's % of the national box car
fleet. Tim noted:"The freight car data which Dave Nelson & I have
parsed from wheelreports and other car reports will not solve Mike
Brock's "CaliforniaZephyr" problems. All they represent is a pool of
cars which werereported by a railroad over a course of time."Tim was
responding to a comment that I made that my op sessions always
replicate May 14, 1953. While I did say that, it was tongue in
cheek...I actually simulate the entire month of May, 1953. But his
point was, I think, that the theory could predict and, therefore,
project the foreign box car population over a relatively long period
of time...I think a year was suggested. The problem with this concept
is that frt train consists, at least on the UP in Wyoming, were very
variable. IOW, 30% of one train might be UP box cars while another
might have no UP box cars although 50% of the train was box cars.
About 8% of the box cars should be UP [ home road % of about twice
the national % ]. As I pointed out, major RRs interchanging with a
RR...at least in UP's case...seem to be more represented than that of
the national %...as in the case of SP. The problem is, even with
compression of model train lengths and compression of the number of
trains present during an op session, the need to have enough cars to
match a particular train...like the lumber trains with 31 SP box cars
in 1949...means that a rather large car base would be required...in
this case, at least 1000 box cars IF that base reflected the national
per centages. So...what does one do? Well, I for one recognize that
the value of the theory and statistical data is that it shows that
box cars went everywhere. The numbers of different foreign box cars
on a given layout probably reflect the RR being modeled. IOW, there
might be a "local" factor at work as in the case of UP and Milw,
CB&Q, C&NW and certainly SP and I would have more of them than the
theory calls for....probably calling for 1.5 times the national %.
Why? I don't care. It's just the way it was. At the same time if I
wanted to simulate a particular train...compressed...I would simply
have enough of those cars available as well and I wouldn't be
concerned that the total box car fleet would not reflect the national
per centages. IOW, my box car fleet probably won't exceed 150 cars[
hmmm...guess I'll have to count ] .I realize that we have a great
deal more information about UP in Wyoming than might be available for
other RRs and what applies for the UP trunk line across WY might not
apply to other areas. After all, everyone knows that at least one of
every class of frt car went over Sherman Hill at some time. Heck,
even General Tojo went over Sherman Hill.Mike Brock






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Canadian Empties

John Hile <john66h@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

we have been told by
several people on this list in the past, that Canadian cars could only
move in the U.S. to destinations to unload, then return empty




Following is from the "American Association of Railroad
Superintendents, Proceedings of the Fifty-Eighth Annual Meeting and
Committee Reports, 1954" during a discussion regarding efficient
handling of freight cars.

Among those in attendance at the Pacific Coast Post-Convention Meeting
were C. H. Grant, general superintendent of transportation, SP,; L.P.
Hopkins, superintendent, SP; R.N. Whitman, superintendent, GN.

Part of their discussion is as follows:


MR. GRANT: We have, as I have stated before, very plain and frank
directives from the AAR and also from the Canadian roads. It's a
year-round order, I think, that we have to return Canadian cars, and
we really catch it when we don't return Canadian cars empty unless we
have loading for them on Canadian line. Of course, Mr. Hopkins'
glasses get fogged up (laughter) or he gets these things mixed up on
the switch list and they load three of four now and then, but that's
just a mistake. In further amplifying that, in the case of a shortage
of cars in the States, frequently Mr. Gass, the AAR officer who puts
out these car directives, will permit us to load Canadian cars. But
it's usually for a very short duration, when they're not short of cars
in Canada.

MEMBER: In certain territories.

MR. GRANT: In certain territories, yes.

MR. HOPKINS: As far as Canadian cars are concerned, we follow Rule 2
very closely. There may be a slip-up now and then, but on the
over-all we either get them back empty or we get them loaded in the
direction that is covered by Rule 2.



John Hile
Blacksburg, VA


Re: DS/SS split 1938 help needed

Ray Breyer
 

laramielarry <ostresh@uwyo.edu> wrote:
>>I am transferring the box, auto and ventilator car data from the
January 1938 ORER into an Excel spreadsheet, and adding sheathing
type and build/rebuild date as auxiliary information.
I have the sheathing type for about 95% of the U.S. fleet, and am
requesting your help in reducing the number of "unknowns".
>>Can someone identify whether these cars are DS, SS, or Steel and what
their build or rebuild dates were?
Hi Larry,

I dug through my files over lunch and can fill a couple of holes, at least partially:

IC, XM, Box, 245451-246200, 36'4.5", 8'0", 6'0", 80000, 664, NA
Ex-46492-46848, double sheathed, built by the IC between 1905-1907 (source: 1915 ICC valuation report for the IC)

IC, XM, Box, 247001-247600, 36'4.5", 8'0", 6'0", 80000, 513, NA
Double sheathed (source: 1927 IC equipment list)

IC, XM, Box, 330001-331800, 36'4.5", 8'0", 5'6", 80000, 794, NA
Double sheathed (source: 1927 IC equipment list)

MP, XA, Auto, 82500-83249, 40'6", 10'0", 11'0", 80000, 735, 52
Single sheathed, built by Mt Vernon in 1927 (source: 1951 MP diagram book)


Hope this helps!

Ray Breyer


Re: A Purpose For Frt Car Distribution Studies. Was: Re: Re:Fwd: Re: Freight car distribution

Stokes John
 

Mike,

When you get to the end of your commentary on freight car percentages and what UP might have been running in a consist in a given time period, you end up with virtually nothing concrete but using the national averages to play around with it, and vary from day to day, and let it rip. This reminds me of the old saw about if you let a group of monkeys play with typewriters long enough they will end up writing the great American novel, by pure random chance. Build up a fleet of over a 1000 cars from all roads and then mix them up endlessly over time and maybe, just maybe, on one day you will have replicated an actual consist. Otherwise you are guessing and trying to create some semblance of reality, but reality is always waiting for the next roll of the dice.


The other factor that seems to be evident is that the UP is not typical of many railroads, given its national significance and overland route that channeled a lot of freight across the West, and the same time period for the CB&Q would produce a very different mix of cars, given the nature of the Q and the types of traffic it generated, as an example comparison. All of this is speculation piled on infinite possibilities based on very small snapshots of what happened in a really great big country over thousands of days, every one of them different and reflective of an ever changing rail scene and traffic and commodity trends. If spending inordinate amounts of time agonizing over this and trying to match real consists on your favorite railroad on a given day or month or year floats your boat, then go to it, but I think Gene has a cogent question, and I have seen no good answers yet.John Stokes
Bellevue, WA



To: STMFC@yahoogroups.comFrom: brockm@brevard.netDate: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 13:18:54 -0400Subject: A Purpose For Frt Car Distribution Studies. Was: Re: [STMFC] Re:Fwd: Re: Freight car distribution




Gene Green writes:"All this discussion of freight car distribution has what purpose? Apurpose does not seem self-evident to me."A very legitimate and timely question.OK...here's an opinion...and it seems obvious. The data developed by Dave Nelson and Tim Gilbert have resulted in a theory that the % of a foreign RR's box cars on a given RR will match the % of the foreign RR's % of the national box car fleet. Tim noted:"The freight car data which Dave Nelson & I have parsed from wheelreports and other car reports will not solve Mike Brock's "CaliforniaZephyr" problems. All they represent is a pool of cars which werereported by a railroad over a course of time."Tim was responding to a comment that I made that my op sessions always replicate May 14, 1953. While I did say that, it was tongue in cheek...I actually simulate the entire month of May, 1953. But his point was, I think, that the theory could predict and, therefore, project the foreign box car population over a relatively long period of time...I think a year was suggested. The problem with this concept is that frt train consists, at least on the UP in Wyoming, were very variable. IOW, 30% of one train might be UP box cars while another might have no UP box cars although 50% of the train was box cars. About 8% of the box cars should be UP [ home road % of about twice the national % ]. As I pointed out, major RRs interchanging with a RR...at least in UP's case...seem to be more represented than that of the national %...as in the case of SP. The problem is, even with compression of model train lengths and compression of the number of trains present during an op session, the need to have enough cars to match a particular train...like the lumber trains with 31 SP box cars in 1949...means that a rather large car base would be required...in this case, at least 1000 box cars IF that base reflected the national per centages. So...what does one do? Well, I for one recognize that the value of the theory and statistical data is that it shows that box cars went everywhere. The numbers of different foreign box cars on a given layout probably reflect the RR being modeled. IOW, there might be a "local" factor at work as in the case of UP and Milw, CB&Q, C&NW and certainly SP and I would have more of them than the theory calls for....probably calling for 1.5 times the national %. Why? I don't care. It's just the way it was. At the same time if I wanted to simulate a particular train...compressed...I would simply have enough of those cars available as well and I wouldn't be concerned that the total box car fleet would not reflect the national per centages. IOW, my box car fleet probably won't exceed 150 cars[ hmmm...guess I'll have to count ] .I realize that we have a great deal more information about UP in Wyoming than might be available for other RRs and what applies for the UP trunk line across WY might not apply to other areas. After all, everyone knows that at least one of every class of frt car went over Sherman Hill at some time. Heck, even General Tojo went over Sherman Hill.Mike Brock

112441 - 112460 of 187383