Date   

Foundry Symbols

Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
 

I uploaded a document in the FILES section titled "Unknown Foundry Symbols". I know there are many on here who have examined such marks on trucks, couplers, and other hardware and might have photos or other documentation giving a name or source for parts with these symbols. Please take a look and see if there are any you recognize - I'd appreciate it.

I also uploaded a file titled "Foundry Symbols and Trademarks" which is an article I wrote about the subject. It is in the context of cast armor and other steel parts for tanks, but it should be useful for railroad equipment as well.

Thanks,
KL


New file uploaded to STMFC

STMFC@...
 

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the STMFC
group.

File : /Foundry Symbols and Trademarks.doc
Uploaded by : kurt_laughlin <fleeta@verizon.net>
Description : Foundry Symbols and Trademarks

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/files/Foundry%20Symbols%20and%20Trademarks.doc

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles

Regards,

kurt_laughlin <fleeta@verizon.net>


New file uploaded to STMFC

STMFC@...
 

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the STMFC
group.

File : /Unknown Foundry Symbols.doc
Uploaded by : kurt_laughlin <fleeta@verizon.net>
Description : Unknown Foundry Symbols

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/files/Unknown%20Foundry%20Symbols.doc

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles

Regards,

kurt_laughlin <fleeta@verizon.net>


ADMIN: Digest

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

A slight warning about using the digest system. Often a member using the digest does not, apparently, see an ADMIN message that, for example, might terminate or note that a thread has moved out of scope. In the past some members have had to spend the night in Moderate Jail...being innocently caught up in a policing activity. Oddly, the STMFC must operate in a perpetual winter...the nights being rather long <G>.

Mike Brock
STMFC Owner


Re: Looking for IN THE FIELD pix of C&O 91-ton gons

Eric Hansmann
 

Al Kresse wrote:

I'm looking for pictures of C&O 100000-100999 series high capy gons in
the yards, in the coal fields, or at the coal docks taken between 1921
and 1946. I have builders and tech journal prints plus Raceland AMC
May 1931 repaint photos already.

============================


Al,

I did a quick scan at the West Virginia & Regional history on-line collection here:
http://images.lib.wvu.edu/cgi/i/image/image-idx?page=index;c=wvcp;g=wvcart

I only searched using 'Tipple' as a parameter. I noted C&O gons in several images, but none
from the series you requested. I only did a quick check. You may want to peruse this archive
with more diligence.

Eric Hansmann
Morgantown, W. Va.


Re: Digest

Norman+Laraine Larkin <lono@...>
 

When I received STMFC list postings under digest, messages came in bundles of up to 25, sometimes twice a day if message traffic was heavy. Messages were bundled as they were received. I find it easier to control messages individually.
Regards,
Norm Larkin

.

----- Original Message -----
From: Jack Burgess
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 1:04 AM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Digest


I don't know since I haven't used this option. I suspect that you are
correct that you get them at a specified interval since no one is going to
reword the posts. Since people post questions regarding specific posts, I
would guess that Yahoo bundles posts under the same original subject name...

Jack Burgess
www.yosemitevalleyrr.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
> John Stokes
> Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 9:45 PM
> To: stmfc@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [STMFC] Digest
>
>
> Jack, by digest doesn't this mean something different than a
> digested or summarized version of the posts? This is not like
> Reader's Digest, no one has taken the time to reword and reduce
> the actual posting, you just get them in a batch at the specified
> interval. Is that right?
>
> John Stokes
> Bellevue, WA
>
>
>
> To: STMFC@yahoogroups.comFrom: jack@yosemitevalleyrr.comDate:
> Fri, 15 Aug 2008 20:46:39 -0700Subject: RE: [STMFC] Digest
>
>
>
>
> As the owner of another list, it is easy to do. Just go to Yahoo
> groups forthis list:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/and log
> in and then click on My Groups at the upper right. Then on the
> leftside, click on Edit My Groups. Under the column "Message
> Delivery", click onthe down arrow for this group and select Daily
> Digest. Click on Save Changesto make the change...Jack
> Burgesswww.yosemitevalleyrr.com> -----Original Message----->
> From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com]On
> Behalf Of> Ltctilley@aol.com> Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 8:40
> PM> To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com> Subject: Re: [STMFC] Digest>>> I
> need to take that option as well, at least for now.? I have> been
> unable to figure out how to do so.? Thanks for any assistance.>
> chris tilley> LTCTilley@aol.com>>> -----Original Message----->
> From: sabol_jim <jimsabol@msn.com>> To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 3:12 pm> Subject: [STMFC] Digest>>>>>>>
> Would the owner/manager of this list please assist me in
> receiving a> digesr of this group's e-mails rather than receiving
> each one in its> entirety. Thanks. Jim here.>>>>>>> [Non-text
> portions of this message have been removed]>>>
> ------------------------------------>> Yahoo! Groups Links>>>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


Re: Canadian Empties

john riddell <jriddell@...>
 

Possibly the best example of Canadian empties not being returned after being unloaded in the US was the cars of the Temiskaming & Northern Ontario Railway (reporting marks TEM). The 566-mile road had some 220 box cars in 1942. It often exported newsprint to US customers in its boxcars. Due to its initials T&NO its unloaded cars in the US were frequently confused with Texas & New Orleans and sent empty to Fort Worth. Its cars were often not returned home for a long time. TEM complained frequently from 1910 on to not confuse its cars with the US road, with limited success. After complaining for some 25 years, in 1946 the road took the extreme step of changing its name to Ontario Northland Railway (reporting marks ONT), at least partially to solve this persistant problem.

John Riddell


Re: Digest

Randy Hammill
 

From the Yahoo Group Help:

Daily Digest
Messages are delivered in batches of 25 or daily, whichever comes
sooner. This is the best option if you want to receive fewer mail
messages and don't need up-to-the minute posts in your inbox. Email
attachments are not available in digests.

Randy


Re: A Purpose For Frt Car Distribution Studies.

Dave Nelson
 

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jim
Betz

I think it has been left unsaid that it is very common to go to an NP
layout and see far too many NP cars - or to a B&O layout and see almost
nothing but B&O cars. And when you look at a picture of a freight yard or
freight train "it just isn't so". The point is that some (many?) of us get
too wrapped up in our favorite railroad and tend to have way too many
freight cars for "our" railroad on our layouts.
------------------------------------

To be clear for everyone... The Distribution Hypothesis under discussion is
all about Foreign Road boxcars.

Home Road Boxcars is very different: One can find ICC data in the annual
Blue Books that cite, nationwide, the typical ratio of Home Road boxcars to
Foreign Road boxcars for the preceeding 10 years. Tim Gilbert took those
numbers and dug up when the recessions were and found there was a geneneral
trend that in recessions there were more Home Road boxcars on Home Rails
than there were in times of plenty.

I don't have the data right here in front of me... But IIRC in WWII Home
Road Boxcars on Home Rails were about 21-24% of all boxcars... The rest of
course were Foreign Road cars. In bad years the numbers might climb by
10-15 points.

In the absence of having the data at my fingertips, I would hazzard a guess
that 25-30% of your boxcars should be home road cars. If you want something
more precise, get a Blue Book and look it up.

Now I happened to do a lot of computer modeling of the Western Pacific
traffic... I won't bore you with the details and assumptions as there are
plenty of both to go with a handful of facts but from that modeling I
realized that it was quite likely the WP terminal in Oakland / San Francisco
area received about twice as many carloads as were shipped. Doesn't really
matter if that's really true... Just take it for now as a talking point.
So, if a particular area on a railroad had a much higher ratio of boxcar
receipts than boxcar shipments, it would stand to reason that the local
yardmaster (a) probably had little need for home road boxcars held in
protective service and (b) had to deal with getting a lot of empties out of
his yard. IOW, very few Home Road boxcars there. Conversly, if any area
has very few recipients relative to shippers, the local yardmaster (or
agent) probably had a considerable need to home road cars held in protective
service and so their numbers might well be higher than whatever road-wide
average might suggest.

So going back to the rough figure I cited above of 25-30% of your boxcars
should be home road. That really should be adjusted by your best estimate
of what the shipper / recipient boxcar ratio is -- both on the layout and
what would be adjacent areas. All the rest of the boxcars you own then get
addressed via the distribution idea under discussion here.

And again, I'm talking about plain Jane XM boxcars.

Dave Nelson


Re: Digest

Jack Burgess
 

I don't know since I haven't used this option. I suspect that you are
correct that you get them at a specified interval since no one is going to
reword the posts. Since people post questions regarding specific posts, I
would guess that Yahoo bundles posts under the same original subject name...

Jack Burgess
www.yosemitevalleyrr.com

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
John Stokes
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 9:45 PM
To: stmfc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Digest


Jack, by digest doesn't this mean something different than a
digested or summarized version of the posts? This is not like
Reader's Digest, no one has taken the time to reword and reduce
the actual posting, you just get them in a batch at the specified
interval. Is that right?

John Stokes
Bellevue, WA



To: STMFC@yahoogroups.comFrom: jack@yosemitevalleyrr.comDate:
Fri, 15 Aug 2008 20:46:39 -0700Subject: RE: [STMFC] Digest




As the owner of another list, it is easy to do. Just go to Yahoo
groups forthis list:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/and log
in and then click on My Groups at the upper right. Then on the
leftside, click on Edit My Groups. Under the column "Message
Delivery", click onthe down arrow for this group and select Daily
Digest. Click on Save Changesto make the change...Jack
Burgesswww.yosemitevalleyrr.com> -----Original Message----->
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf Of> Ltctilley@aol.com> Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 8:40
PM> To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com> Subject: Re: [STMFC] Digest>>> I
need to take that option as well, at least for now.? I have> been
unable to figure out how to do so.? Thanks for any assistance.>
chris tilley> LTCTilley@aol.com>>> -----Original Message----->
From: sabol_jim <jimsabol@msn.com>> To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 3:12 pm> Subject: [STMFC] Digest>>>>>>>
Would the owner/manager of this list please assist me in
receiving a> digesr of this group's e-mails rather than receiving
each one in its> entirety. Thanks. Jim here.>>>>>>> [Non-text
portions of this message have been removed]>>>
------------------------------------>> Yahoo! Groups Links>>>>









------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links




Re: Digest

Stokes John
 

Jack, by digest doesn't this mean something different than a digested or summarized version of the posts? This is not like Reader's Digest, no one has taken the time to reword and reduce the actual posting, you just get them in a batch at the specified interval. Is that right?

John Stokes
Bellevue, WA



To: STMFC@yahoogroups.comFrom: jack@yosemitevalleyrr.comDate: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 20:46:39 -0700Subject: RE: [STMFC] Digest

As the owner of another list, it is easy to do. Just go to Yahoo groups forthis list:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/and log in and then click on My Groups at the upper right. Then on the leftside, click on Edit My Groups. Under the column "Message Delivery", click onthe down arrow for this group and select Daily Digest. Click on Save Changesto make the change...Jack Burgesswww.yosemitevalleyrr.com> -----Original Message-----> From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of> Ltctilley@aol.com> Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 8:40 PM> To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com> Subject: Re: [STMFC] Digest>>> I need to take that option as well, at least for now.? I have> been unable to figure out how to do so.? Thanks for any assistance.> chris tilley> LTCTilley@aol.com>>> -----Original Message-----> From: sabol_jim <jimsabol@msn.com>> To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 3:12 pm> Subject: [STMFC] Digest>>>>>>> Would the owner/manager of this list please assist me in receiving a> digesr of this group's e-mails rather than receiving each one in its> entirety. Thanks. Jim here.>>>>>>> >>> ------------------------------------>> Yahoo! Groups Links>>>>


Re: an oops on recept A Purpose For Frt Car Distribution Studies

Stokes John
 

Sorry, spell check and an errant finger put "pathetical" in for "hypothetical", corrected below.John S.

To: stmfc@yahoogroups.com> From: ggstokes@msn.com> Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 21:18:10 -0700> Subject: RE: A Purpose For Frt Car Distribution Studies. Was: Re: [STMFC] Re:Fwd: Re: Freigh> > But Steve, averages are just that, and they can be based on wide swings on both sides. Plus, on any given day, all five of the "average" of B&O cars could theoretically wind up on your railroad, or none. And, the big kicker, you could have several of the same classification cars on the same day, or none. And, no one will know that the specific car you have there is not a hypothetical possibility, and actually you won't either. The only certainty from all this deep discussion of box car esoterica is that one should steer away from only having the iconic cars from their favorite road that are popular but existed in small quantities in real life, unless you just happened to be operating on the very day in 1956 that the CofG cigar paint scheme box car was dropped off at the exchange track for your railroad. But probably not tomorrow. The point is, the averages are good to know, and even more important is knowing how many of the different types and classes of cars each railroad had, its connection patterns, whether the road tended to try to keep its own cars on its line, and any one of the dozens of variables. Get a rough idea, find some actual manifests if you can, otherwise use common sense and enjoy what you are doing, knowing that there is no way on God's Green Earth that you will be running a prototypical consist except by pure happenstance.> > John Stokes> Bellevue, WA> > > >


Re: A Purpose For Frt Car Distribution Studies. Was: Re: Re:Fwd: Re: Freigh

Stokes John
 

But Steve, averages are just that, and they can be based on wide swings on both sides. Plus, on any given day, all five of the "average" of B&O cars could theoretically wind up on your railroad, or none. And, the big kicker, you could have several of the same classification cars on the same day, or none. And, no one will know that the specific car you have there is not a pathetical possibility, and actually you won't either. The only certainty from all this deep discussion of box car esoterica is that one should steer away from only having the iconic cars from their favorite road that are popular but existed in small quantities in real life, unless you just happened to be operating on the very day in 1956 that the CofG cigar paint scheme box car was dropped off at the exchange track for your railroad. But probably not tomorrow. The point is, the averages are good to know, and even more important is knowing how many of the different types and classes of cars each railroad had, its connection patterns, whether the road tended to try to keep its own cars on its line, and any one of the dozens of variables. Get a rough idea, find some actual manifests if you can, otherwise use common sense and enjoy what you are doing, knowing that there is no way on God's Green Earth that you will be running a prototypical consist except by pure happenstance.

John Stokes
Bellevue, WA



To: STMFC@yahoogroups.comFrom: stevelucas3@yahoo.caDate: Sat, 16 Aug 2008 00:42:30 +0000Subject: A Purpose For Frt Car Distribution Studies. Was: Re: [STMFC] Re:Fwd: Re: Freigh




I learn something new every day. Today's no exception. Good thing that I only invested in a set of dry transfers for the B&O M-53 car I was thinking of modelling. I can justify ONE B&O car on my layout, and now I know that I'm better having an M-26. Sigh...I so wanted that M-53 car!Steve Lucas.--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Smith" <smithbf@...> wrote:> > Brian, Dave, Folks,> > So, here's a philosophical question... For my foreign boxcar fleet, I> need roughly 5 B&O boxcars based on the national fleet. So what cars? > Well the WWII fleet consisted of the M15, M26 and rebuilt M15 and M53> wagontops. The knee jerk response of many modelers might be to use the> iconic wagontops. After all, you can identify them as B&O without even> reading the reporting marks! But I can't resist the temptation to educate> and the wagontops turn out to be a cliche. Their combined made up just> over 10% (or 1 in 10) of the B&Os boxcar fleet... in reality I don't need> ANY! The M15 was about 25% of the fleet and the M26 was about 50% of the> fleet. So, the ICONIC B&O boxcar is the M26. Lets add to that while the> B&O was known for the Duryea underframe, only about 1/3 of the M26 cars> have this u/f.> > OK, so back to the 5 cars I need for B&O. Seems like the M26A and M26D I> built for Virtual Modelers will work, plus maybe another M26 or M26A might> be good. Likewise, a Westerfield M15 would be a good idea. That leaves> one or two slots left, depending on how many M26s I have. So, I broke> down and filled that spot with an M53, after all, it is an icon <G>. > However, due to the size of my fleet that car will not appear every ops> session, but several B&O cars will. What that means is that operators> will get the CORRECT impression that B&O cars were relatively common, but> that wagontops were not. Below are the fleet numbers I worked with for> B&O boxcars> > Regards> Bruce> Bruce Smith> Auburn, AL> > M15D 1213 Wood-Dbl Shth-Westerfield kit> M15H 1165 Wood-Dbl Shth-Westerfield kit> M15J 2164 Wood-Dbl Shth-Westerfield kit> M15F 2355 Wood-Dbl Shth-Westerfield kit> Total M15 -6897> > M26* 1971 like PRR X29> M26A* 3460 like PRR X29 – RC #7003 undec> M26B* 989 like PRR X29> M26C* 991 like PRR X29> M26D* 5443 like PRR X29, Duryea underframe – Speedwitch> M26E* 986 like PRR X29, Duryea underframe – Speedwitch> total M26 - 13840> > M15K 1227 wagon top rebuild> M53* 1886 wagon top--Pro Custom Hobbies kit, F&C kit> M53A* 997 wagon top--Pro Custom Hobbies kit> Total wagon tops - 2883> > M55A 900 built 1941: 10'-0" IH, Murphy panel roof> > Total B&O boxcars 25747>






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Digest

Jack Burgess
 

As the owner of another list, it is easy to do. Just go to Yahoo groups for
this list:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/

and log in and then click on My Groups at the upper right. Then on the left
side, click on Edit My Groups. Under the column "Message Delivery", click on
the down arrow for this group and select Daily Digest. Click on Save Changes
to make the change...

Jack Burgess
www.yosemitevalleyrr.com

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
Ltctilley@aol.com
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 8:40 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Digest


I need to take that option as well, at least for now.? I have
been unable to figure out how to do so.? Thanks for any assistance.
chris tilley
LTCTilley@aol.com


-----Original Message-----
From: sabol_jim <jimsabol@msn.com>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 3:12 pm
Subject: [STMFC] Digest






Would the owner/manager of this list please assist me in receiving a
digesr of this group's e-mails rather than receiving each one in its
entirety. Thanks. Jim here.









------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links




digest mode

Brian J Carlson <brian@...>
 

For those folks wanting to change to digest. The directions are given at the
bottom of list email.

Brian J Carlson P.E.
Cheektowaga NY


Re: Digest

ltctilley
 

I need to take that option as well, at least for now.? I have been unable to figure out how to do so.? Thanks for any assistance.
chris tilley
LTCTilley@aol.com

-----Original Message-----
From: sabol_jim <jimsabol@msn.com>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 3:12 pm
Subject: [STMFC] Digest






Would the owner/manager of this list please assist me in receiving a
digesr of this group's e-mails rather than receiving each one in its
entirety. Thanks. Jim here.


Re: Canadian Empties

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Malcolm Laughlin wrote:
Taking the opposite side from my earlier Yakima example, on the NYC in the 60's loading Canadian cars other than to or via Canada was definitely a don't do.
That's what an SP employee from the 1960s told me: the Canadian meat reefers and paper box cars made empty in Los Angeles were DEFINITELY returned directly to Canada, almost always empty.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: A Purpose For Frt Car Distribution Studies. Was: Re: Re

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Malcolm Laughlin wrote:
Let's not get too hung up on averages. After all, the average day rarely happenned. If 10 % of the cars were wagon tops, then there were probably days when out of ten cars five would be wagons . . .
Of course, but the average is a place to start. Otherwise you are just winging it. I don't understand the excitement of many posters, to point out that there are substantial swings from the average. That doesn't eliminate the importance of the average as the core datum. Moreover, my instinct is that what "looks right" is probably the average, not the extremes of the data. Without more specific data, and we have precious little, I believe that trying to look typical is an excellent beginning.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Superintendent's association

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

FYI about this association.

The Association of American Railroad Superintendents was a professional association of railroad operating department officials. It was mostly trainmaster, superintendents and general mangers. I was a member for several years. As Manager of Car Distribution Systems (in the operating department), I was definitely eligible. mBut it was pretty loose. An operating department trainee could join.

The AARS had no authority. It was a forum for discussion and could influence development of rules, but could net prescribe them.


Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478


Re: Canadian Empties

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

Quite true, Steve, but note that there is also an awareness that the rules can be applied and someone may notice. I doubt that was true for U.S. cars violating Rule 2. Canadian cars may well have been "confiscated" (as the term was) more than was legal, but I feel confident it was nothing like the situation for U.S. cars.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
----------------------

Taking the opposite side from my earlier Yakima example, on the NYC in the 60's loading Canadian cars other than to or via Canada was definitely a don't do.



Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478

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