Re: DTI trucks

Tim O'Connor

Brian

You may not be aware but the earliest version of those trucks
I've seen were cast in 1934 by ASF, while the DT&I cars were
built (with different castings from unknown foundry) in 1949.
So someone had the coil-leaf-coil trucks before DT&I. (Or they
were applied to some other DT&I cars.)

Tim

At 8/17/2008 02:43 PM Sunday, you wrote:
I have 5-6 of the DT&I cars located nearby some still have those trucks. I
posted some photos to the list years ago 2004 but removed them later.
Brian J Carlson P.E.
Cheektowaga NY

DTI trucks

Brian J Carlson <brian@...>

I have 5-6 of the DT&I cars located nearby some still have those trucks. I
posted some photos to the list years ago 2004 but removed them later.
Brian J Carlson P.E.
Cheektowaga NY

Re: A Purpose For Frt Car Distribution Studies

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>

Gene Green wrote:
-Does- average always mean the same thing? I learned (correctly, I hope) that "average" could be one of three things; mean, median or mode. Usually when folks - those unencumbered by formal education - say "average" they actually mean "arithmetic mean."
Yes, Gene, I agree that the person in the street thinks of the arithmetic mean as the "average," and that definition is fixed, which is why I expressed doubt about the concept of a "true average." For a unimodal symmetrical distribution, the mean, median and mode lie at the same place, so for many situations you can lump them all together as the "average." But the minute the distribution is skewed, and many real-world distributions are skewed, the three definitions give different answers, and the "middle" of the distribution no longer lies at the most frequent value (the mode).

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Re: Union Pacific Stock car class

dmueller183@...

You mean 46759? There is no 46795 in the 1940, 1950, or
1953 ORER's.

...and ditto for july 1959 dave

</HTML>

Re: What HO truck(s) do we STMFC'ers want?

Tim O'Connor

Brian

I was looking at a drawing but now I can't find it -- but
now I think I'd rather have those coil-leaf-coil trucks as
found on the DT&I 14000-14299 box cars.

This spring package was applied to at least two different
sideframe castings. I'll send you the excellents scans I
have of each sideframe with these interesting springs. One
of the castings (which does not match the DT&I cars) has
an ASF foundry mark.

Tim O'Connor

Another truck high on my list wish is a 50 ton roller
bearing truck... Let's see...

50t rolling bearing (Buckeye/National/ASF/Barber/Scullin)
50t Barber S-2 w/ spring plank
50t National C-1
50t Gould
Tim,

Gould made a lot of trucks. Which one did you have in mind?

Brian Leppert
Tahoe Model Works
Carson City, NV

DYLX Cover Hopper Photo

Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>

Does anyone know of a photo of the DYLX covered hoppers (Dri-Flo types, I believe) BESIDES the one in the Classic Freight Cars book? I'm looking for an image prior to the formation of Sinclair-Koppers in 1964.

Thanks,
KL

Re: A Purpose For Frt Car Distribution Studies

Tim O'Connor

-Does- average always mean the same thing? I learned (correctly, I
hope) that "average" could be one of three things; mean, median or
mode. Usually when folks - those unencumbered by formal education -
say "average" they actually mean "arithmetic mean."
Gene Green

Larry posted his comparison spreadsheet showing a straight line
fleet-percentage vs observed-percentage for each railroad. I then
said that one really needs to compute a standard deviation (using
multiple data sets as Larry added) to know how closely observations
match the Tim's theory of random distribution.

A simple way is to consider a sample of 50 box cars. For a railroad
that owns 2% of the U.S. fleet, the "average" number of its box cars
in the sample would be 1. But for a SINGLE sample, what's the chance
that NONE of its cars are present? Easy .98**50 ~= .36. That is, 36%
chance. For a railroad with 10% of the U.S. fleet, .90**50 ~= .005.
That is, there's only a 1 in 200 probability that NONE of those cars
are in the sample.

If you have a layout that has 100 box cars, you probably should own
300 to 400 box cars proportionately distributed among railroads except
for the home road, which should be over-represented. (You need so many
cars because this gives you a "precision" of 0.25% so you can have
examples from very small as well as large railroads.)

Then allow random assignments to take their course -- over time you'll
see different trains but the 'average' train (after hundreds of samples)
will match the national fleet percentages (after discounting for the

Of course, you can then add to this random mix, local facts that skew
the mix. Perhaps you have an auto parts or assembly plant. Or maybe a
grain elevator that receives only corn, or only wheat. Or it may be a
certain time of year -- e.g. grain rush. Etc etc. Then you can 'skew'
some car assignments to reflect those traffic patterns.

Tim O'Connor

Re: What HO truck(s) do we STMFC'ers want?

Brian Leppert <b.leppert@...>

--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

Andy

Another truck high on my list wish is a 50 ton roller
bearing truck... Let's see...

50t rolling bearing (Buckeye/National/ASF/Barber/Scullin)
50t Barber S-2 w/ spring plank
50t National C-1
50t Gould
Tim,

Gould made a lot of trucks. Which one did you have in mind?

Brian Leppert
Tahoe Model Works
Carson City, NV

Re: What HO truck(s) do we STMFC'ers want?

Brian Leppert <b.leppert@...>

--- In STMFC@..., "gn3397" <heninger@...> wrote:

--- In STMFC@..., "al_brown03" <abrown@> wrote:

--- In STMFC@..., "gn3397" <heninger@> wrote:
<snip>

I would like to see a Dalman-Andrews. Unfortunately, only GN,
Soo
Line, and ACL
modelers could use it, to my knowledge. Oh well, I can hope.
That
ACL had them too, I didn't know.

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.
Mr. Brown,

Now that you mention it, I am in error. I meant SAL. Thanks for
correcting my error. I need
them for my GN cars, which I am most familiar with.

Sincerely,
Robert D. Heninger
Iowa City, IA
Spokane, Portland & Seattle can be added to the list. These were ex-
GN gons aquired in the '50s and converted to wood chip cars.

I am aware of SAL B-5 boxcars with these trucks, but what were other
SAL classes?

Brian Leppert
Tahoe Model Works
Carson City, NV

Re: Battleship Gons trucks

Al,
A couple of folks I know that have built these have used the old Cape
Line Pilchner Patent truck. These are now available from Bethlehem Car Works, I
believe.

Virginia Division
NMRA L5756

**************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget?
(http://autos.aol.com/cars-Volkswagen-Jetta-2009/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00030000000007 )

Re: Box car counts by RR - NMRA Charles collection

Larry Kline

Tim O'Connor wrote:
Larry, I suspect Tim would have recommended computing the standard deviation of this data set, in order to see how closely these observed differences from the mean values match the expected standard deviation. One does not "expect" all values in a sample data set from a large population to match the mean values, but one does expect that the mean of the deviations is predictable. If it is, then you can make a case that your data set is a good representation of a hypothetical sample. If not, then the data set may be skewed, or your expected sample may be incorrect (i.e. Tim's theory of distribution may be incorrect).

I believe that the random variables in this situation are the boxcar counts for each railroad. The actual boxcar counts for US railroads are not random variables. A single set of data, like the numbers I posted for the Charles collection, has only one value for each random variable so a standard deviation cannot be computed.

On the other hand, if all of the trains in all of the conductor's books owned by list members were treated as separate observations, then standard deviations could be computed for the number of boxcars observed for each railroad. The data in the conductors books could also be aggregated for each railroad.

Larry Kline
Pittsburgh, PA

Re: Box car counts by RR - NMRA Charles collection

Larry Kline

Dave Nelson wrote:
Larry, there are a couple of errors in that listing and I think you should correct them. First, as the images were taken on the PRR you should not count any PRR cars in the sample. Home Road cars are not what the basic Distribution Hypothesis is about. Second, I get a lower total even after that so I think you might have missed something when you tabulated the numbers.

I sent my Excel spreadsheet to Dave and we agree on the numbers,

I made a folder in the files section called _Boxcar counts-Charles collection_ and moved the two files I previously posted to the folder. I added a third file with the PRR boxcars omitted.

Larry Kline
Pittsburgh, PA

Re: A Purpose For Frt Car Distribution Studies

Gene Green <bierglaeser@...>

--- In STMFC@..., Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

An average always means the same thing, Malcolm, though in a
skewed distribution it will not lie at the same location as the most
frequent data, which lay persons usually assume the average to be
(and > which it is in a symmetrical distribution). But I have no idea
what a > "true average" is.

-Does- average always mean the same thing? I learned (correctly, I
hope) that "average" could be one of three things; mean, median or
mode. Usually when folks - those unencumbered by formal education -
say "average" they actually mean "arithmetic mean."

Gene Green
OitwTtoEP

Re: diversions.

Bill McCoy

Diversions could be filed by the beneficial owner of the car's lading
as shown on the Bill of Lading and reflected on the Waybill that
accompanied the car. Up to 3 diversions could be made on a car IIRC.
To protect the through rates from origin to ultimate destination the
routing specified in the rate tariff that may refer to a routing
west coast lumber from the SLSF at Birmingham consigned to a customer
in Petersburg, VA and the shipper of consignee wanted to divert
(reconsign) the car to a customer on the SAL in Savannah they would
have to file the diversion before the car departed Hamlet, NC. (Look
at an SAL map and you will see why). Protecting the through rate was
very important as the local rate from a SAL point beyond Hamlet would
add significantly to the transportation cost. If the customer in
Savannah was located on the Southern Ry, closed to reciprocal
switching requiring the Southern to have a line haul, the car would
have to be diverted on the SLSF before delivery to the SAL at
Birmingham. This is because the Southern had no routes that would
allow the SAL to be intermediate between the SAL and Southern on
traffic moving via the Birmingham gateway to Southern RY destinations.

Diversions were a serious business and one of my first duties every
morning was to check to see that Hamlet had made my diversions from
the day before. If we missed the diversion we had to protect the
through rate even if the car was then out of route. Lumber and west
coast produce were the major commodities diverted and Charlotte had a
flock of brokers. Later to avoid the pain of switching out cars
already classified to a different destination the diversion rules on
CSX were changed to require that the diversion be filed before the
car arrived at the last diversion point.

Bill McCoy
Jax, FL

--- In STMFC@..., Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
wrote:

I'd like to try to clarify the diversion thing a bit based on what
I believe to have been the rules. The excerpt from Don Holbrook
below is a nice summary of what happened. BTW, all that I've read so
far from Don is consistent with my experience.

There were limits to circuity in diverting cars. The cars had to
be diverted/reconsigned in a manner such that their path from origin
to destination was a legal route, as shown in the routing guide.
There was a single routing guide that was itself a tariff and one of
several supplementary tariffs referenced by most commodity and class
rate tariffs. {note: other tariffs refereneced by most rate tariffs
were the Open and Prepay Station List, ORER, demurrage tariff and
Uniform Freight calssifications } The rouitng guide had all of the
valid routes. That included most combinations of railroads and
junctions that did not cause excess circuity. Circuity was expressed
as a percentage of short line miles [There was another supplementary
tariff that had short line miles between all points.]. I don't
remeber the actual factor, but let's use 120 for example.

Provincetowm MA, the short line mileage is 3653, routed SP-Ogden-UP-
Omaha-CNW-Chicago-NYC-Framingham-NH. USing the 120 percent rule, we
can go 4384 miles. Here's a route we could use to delay one of those
lumber rollers. SP-Portland-UP-Denver-MP-MEMphis-SOU-Washington-PRR-
New York-NH. That route is 4375 miles. At any point between
Roseburg and Little Rock the car could be diveted to a direct route
via Chicago or St. Louis and NYC to Framingham.

=========================
> Don said
Diversions were specified by the broker. However, a car could be
diverted once without cost to the broker providing the car was
going
in a straight line movement between two end points. Example would
be
diversion lumber moving from Pacific Northwest via MSTL to Peoria
and
Peoria being the broker specified destination. It the car reached
Albert Lea, MN and was diverted to Indianpolis, IN for the final
customer the diversion was free. However, if the diversion was from
Albert Lea, MN to Sioux Falls, SD then, depending on era, was
either
treated as a diversion with a specific charge, or as an entirely
new
shipment because of the diversion being back in a westward
movement.
Brokers made every attempt to sell their product enroute and in a
linear fashion.

Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Car distribution vs era

Douglas Harding <dharding@...>

"Tom's 1938 Register" was based upon the American Guide Series published during the depression, by the Federal Writers Project of
the Works Progress Administration. The State of Iowa guide is a series of driving tours one can take to see the state. Each town
on the tour is listed, along with pertinent info, business, industry, tourist highlights, etc.

Tom read through each guide (not every state had a guide published) and listed the business and industries, he did his best to
determine which railroad might have served. In general a very helpful addition to one's collection, but not a 100% complete, nor
accurate. I know for the Iowa listings I have spotted several errors for railroads. He did publish an errata sheet, which could be

Doug Harding
www.iowacentralrr.org

Re: A Purpose For Frt Car Distribution Studies

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>

Malcolm Laughlin wrote:
I'm OK with the average as the core datum, but recognizing that the average in the car distribution case may be at one side of a skewed distribution orm otherwise not a true average. Any average is better than zero or infinity as the starting point.
An average always means the same thing, Malcolm, though in a skewed distribution it will not lie at the same location as the most frequent data, which lay persons usually assume the average to be (and which it is in a symmetrical distribution). But I have no idea what a "true average" is.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Re: A Purpose For Frt Car Distribution Studies. Was: Re: Re

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>

Tony said
> That doesn't eliminate the importance of the average as the core datum. Moreover, my instinct is that what "looks right" is probably the average, not the extremes of the data. Without more specific data, and we have precious little, I believe that trying to look typical is an excellent beginning
=========================

I'm OK with the average as the core datum, but recognizing that the average in the car distribution case may be at one side of a skewed distribution orm otherwise not a true average. Any average is better than zero or infinity as the starting point.

Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>

Well Mike, knowing that I'm one of the former jailees that you've mentioned, maybe a grace period of one digest would be in order. This list has unreasonable volume to get individual messages.

Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478

Re: A Purpose For Frt Car Distribution Studies. Was: Re: Re:Fwd

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>

Mike Brock said
> “First, note that my data is about 1/35 of the train consists for only about
a month and a half. What I was trying to say is that during this period of
time, the number of appearances by SP box cars is about 2.6 times what the
theory predicts.”
------------------------

No reason to think this is an anomaly. More likely it represents the proximity of the railroads – see my earlier post about cars form other railroads in proportion to their distance from my railroad. I'm sure the proportionality theory is wrong. More on that tomorrow.

Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Freight car distribution - Four part waybills an randomization

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>

There have been a few comments on this topic in regard to waybills and how do we get randomness so that there is the possibility, as Tim O mentioned for example, of having four SFRD reefers on the same switch run to Frederticksburg Cold Storage. At our club there are two techniques that use in making up four part waybills that help with this.

1. Our layout has enough complexity that it can take from twoto seven days to go through the foutr parts of the waybill. I try to combine trips in a manner that gives different cycle times.

2. I will make 1/4 to 1/3 excess waybills for a car category. When a car gets back to the fiddle yard on cycle four, the waybill is pulled and a diferent waybill is put in the car pocket. Here's an example using meat reefers.

We have about 30 meat cars with about ten different meat companies. The waybill on part 1 has the shipper (meat packer) highlighted and the car pocket clearly identifies the packer. For each packer, I've taken actual origin points from the OpSIG industry database. When a meat car returns to the fiddle yard on part four, we draw another waybill for that packer.

For produce, we have a set of waybills for PFE and SFRD reefers. Each has two round trips from actual origins on UP, SP or SFRD as appropriate. I will always combine a round trip for an move to a local industry, which can take two to four days, with an overhead move to get the cycle length (pseudo)randomness .

These techniques give us a nice variety of moves and what you will see at any given operating session is quite iunpredictable.

I'm copying this to the OpSIG, something we might want to discuss.

Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478

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