Date   

ORER inaccuracy

Robert kirkham
 

Given the assertion (and I doubt any will argue it) that the ORER lists would include equipment that was not really available for service - whether retired or in storage or .... etc - is there a realistic research approach one could adopt to try to identify what parts of a given railway's fleet were no longer in service?

I suppose if the ORER data was in a data base and one focused on dropped entries over time you would develop a starting point of cars where something happened (including re-builds, sale to other lines and retirements). But my impression from reading some of the e-mails that mention these issues is that cars could be more or less out of service for several years - some to return to service, others to be dismantled, etc.

Comparison (in another data base that to my knowledge doesn't presently exist) with corporate equipment lists would be another method of identifying possible equipment that was sidelined. But again, from what I have seen reviewing CPR equipment lists, this data is similarly prone to small but significant errors.

I wonder if anyone has spent any time developing a useful approach for sorting out this kind of question? I'd like to hear what approaches you taken when sorting out the history of a given group of freight cars....

Rob Kirkham

--------------------------------------------------
From: "John Stokes" <ggstokes@...>
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 3:29 PM
To: <stmfc@...>
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: Freight car distribution

Except for all those times the polls are wrong, for varying reasons. As for the ORER, as previously noted, those can be way off in terms of actual cars in service, so another variable.

So what you are saying Tim and Dave are saying is that their stats show us precisely how many box cars from each of the railroad in the US at the time being modeled should be present in your personal fleet of models in order to run consists that, over the year, match the national averages? And if you are only modeling one small segment of the larger railroad, say the GN in 1951, the percentages still count, you just reduce your box car fleet in numbers by the percentages so that you stay constant in the differences? So if there would be 100 CN cars on the GN system at that time, and you only have 90 cars total, you reduce the number proportionally? But what if your line is not part of the main line, but an important branch working the logging and mining routes in the Cascade foothills? I may be completely missing all this, but I am trying to understand how this would work on the average person's home layout, or is that not of any consequence?

John Stokes
Bellevue, WA


ORER inaccuracy

Robert kirkham
 

Given the assertion (and I doubt any will argue it) that the ORER lists would include equipment that was not really available for service - whether retired or in storage or .... etc - is there a realistic research approach one could adopt to try to identify what parts of a given railway's fleet were no longer in service?

I suppose if the ORER data was in a data base and one focused on dropped entries over time you would develop a starting point of cars where something happened (including re-builds, sale to other lines and retirements). But my impression from reading some of the e-mails that mention these issues is that cars could be more or less out of service for several years - some to return to service, others to be dismantled, etc.

Comparison (in another data base that to my knowledge doesn't presently exist) with corporate equipment lists would be another method of identifying possible equipment that was sidelined. But again, from what I have seen reviewing CPR equipment lists, this data is similarly prone to small but significant errors.

I wonder if anyone has spent any time developing a useful approach for sorting out this kind of question? I'd like to hear what approaches you taken when sorting out the history of a given group of freight cars....

Rob Kirkham

--------------------------------------------------
From: "John Stokes" <ggstokes@...>
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 3:29 PM
To: <stmfc@...>
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: Freight car distribution

Except for all those times the polls are wrong, for varying reasons. As for the ORER, as previously noted, those can be way off in terms of actual cars in service, so another variable.

So what you are saying Tim and Dave are saying is that their stats show us precisely how many box cars from each of the railroad in the US at the time being modeled should be present in your personal fleet of models in order to run consists that, over the year, match the national averages? And if you are only modeling one small segment of the larger railroad, say the GN in 1951, the percentages still count, you just reduce your box car fleet in numbers by the percentages so that you stay constant in the differences? So if there would be 100 CN cars on the GN system at that time, and you only have 90 cars total, you reduce the number proportionally? But what if your line is not part of the main line, but an important branch working the logging and mining routes in the Cascade foothills? I may be completely missing all this, but I am trying to understand how this would work on the average person's home layout, or is that not of any consequence?

John Stokes
Bellevue, WA


Re: Flatcar planking - size of boards? 2x6 seems small

Greg Martin
 

Bob and all,

I am sure that the Stores Department were given a cut list of the cars types that they were currently building and those sizes were bundled and shipped off to the Car Shops at the time of production. If the car was cast as we know the F30a were, then minor adjustments were made on site. It really wouldn't matter where you started if you knew where the odd piece or two were to be added. I am sure the Stores Department would make any serious corrections in calculations (measure twice, cut once). I would bet that they were also pre-drilled?so they could be dropped in like a puzzle, at?least that would?the most economical way to do it, otherwise every car would be custom and that doesn't make much since... But hey , it might have been?that way in union?work rules, who knows.

Greg Martin?

-----Original Message-----
From: rwitt_2000 <rwitt_2000@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Tue, 19 Aug 2008 9:00 am
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Flatcar planking - size of boards? 2x6 seems small







Bruce Smith wrote:
snip

I too have used scale lumber to build decks and I REALLY like the way
they look. When I do that, I start at each end and work towards the
middle. With a few boards to go, you should test the fit of the
remaining boards, as you may need to sand down several to make them
fit. This small adjustment in several boards will look much better
than having a half board in the middle of the car.
Bruce,

You raise an interesting point and question "How did car builders place
the decking on flat cars?" Did they start from the ends as you do or
from the middle. I have no idea. To save costs, I would suggest that on
actual flat cars there would be an odd width board or two and that would
be prototypical. There also is the type of flatcar design where the top
of the body bolsters are flush with the decking so these cars have
smaller openings to fit the decking into creating the potential for even
more odd width boards.

Bob Witt


Re: Flatcar planking - size of boards? 2x6 seems small

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Mike;



What you say dovetails with the boards I looked at on an ex-PRR F41 flat.
The boards were oak, "nominally" 3 inches thick (closer to 2 ½"), and varied
in width to accommodate the distance between stake pockets, inboard of which
were boards cut to a bit wider than the outside width of the stake pocket so
you did not have any boards inboard of the bolsters with notches cut into
them, in that application. That may have been a Pennsy thing. The boards
also varied from about half a foot to about a foot wide, and were drilled to
allow the bolt heads to be fully recessed below the surface of the deck, with
some allowance for wear and tear.



Elden Gatwood





________________________________

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Mike
Aufderheide
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 12:45 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Flatcar planking - size of boards? 2x6 seems small



FWIW,

At the 2004 Monon Society convention, ex-carman Bob Schultz displayed an O
scale model of Monon car 7032 that he had scratch built. This specific car
was significant to Bob because as a rip track worker in S. Hammond IN he had
replaced the deck on the real car in the early '50s. Bob related that when
work was slow, the rip track crew would pre-cut 3x wood decking pieces from 7
½ to 12 inches wide. Some pieces had holes pre-cut for the stake pockets. Two
men worked from both ends to the middle. The re-decking took about 1-1/2 days
for two men. These cars are 53'-6" flats built in 1941 and are similar to
the Greenville cars modeled by P2K.

Regards,

Mike Aufderheide

From: parkcitybranch
To: STMFC@yahoogroups. com <mailto:STMFC% 40yahoogroups. com>
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 7:05 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Flatcar planking - size of boards? 2x6 seems small
I am building a wood deck for my CB&Q 52' flat and the original brass
deck measures out to a 2x6 which seems small. What size planking
should I be using? Thanks.
Jason Sanford
















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: 2009 Pittsburgh RPM

Eric Hansmann
 

I just found the details.

March 27 - 28, 2009

Railroad Prototype Modelers Seminar

Seminar: 1:00pm Friday through 11:00pm Saturday

Registration Form here:
http://64.71.51.247/home_files/RPM_Grnbrg_Mar2009.pdf

Registration fee: $35.00

Operating sessions on Thursday Evening, Layout tours on Sunday

Place: Sheraton Four Points Hotel, Route 30 East, Greensburg, PA
Hotel website: http://www.fourpointsgreensburg.com/

Room rate: $95.00 + tax.
Call the hotel at 724-836-6060. Mention "Prototype Modeler's Meet"
for this room rate.

Eric Hansmann
Morgantown, W. Va.


Re: Flatcar planking - size of boards? 2x6 seems small

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Bruce Smith wrote:
On the subject of creosoted lumber for flat car decks. We've learned here previously some railroads did precisely that (e.g. AT&SF), and that others (e.g. PRR) did not (Pennsy used oak, which was considered a "junk" hardwood at the time).
SP car specs say "treated" lumber, usually Douglas fir, but photos how a light color which is obviously not creosoted. My recollections from the 1950s certainly do not include creosote on any flat cars I looked at, SP or otherwise.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: 2009 Pittsburgh RPM

Eric Hansmann
 

--- John Golden wrote:

Does anybody know the dates for Larry Kline's RPM Meet over in
Pittsburgh in 2009?  I hear there will be some steam freight car
(required content) models there.

====================================


John,

I can't recall the exact dates, but I do have a registration form at
home. I'll scan it later and post in the file section. Larry may beat
me to the punch though.

Eric Hansmann
Morgantown, W. Va.


Re: Freight car distribution

Tim O'Connor
 

Al

You can read the subject line, yes? I routinely delete messages (not necessarily
from STMFC) when I know it's a thread in which I have no interest. It takes about
2 seconds. If I miss something important I can always go back to the Yahoo web
site.

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: water.kresse@...
Is there some way to limit this subject to say no more than say 5 e-mails per
day? . . . . unless there is NEW real data to share? . . . . or is there some
way to make this a sub-group that one has an option to receive?

Al Kresse


Re: Flatcar planking - size of boards? 2x6 seems small

Michael Aufderheide
 

FWIW,

At the 2004 Monon Society convention, ex-carman Bob Schultz displayed an O scale model of Monon car 7032 that he had scratch built. This specific car was significant to Bob because as a rip track worker in S. Hammond IN he had replaced the deck on the real car in the early '50s.  Bob related that when work was slow, the rip track crew would pre-cut 3x wood decking pieces from 7 ½ to 12 inches wide. Some pieces had holes pre-cut for the stake pockets. Two men worked from both ends to the middle. The re-decking took about 1-1/2 days for two men.  These cars are 53'-6" flats built in 1941 and are similar to the Greenville cars modeled by P2K.

Regards,

Mike Aufderheide

From: parkcitybranch
To: STMFC@yahoogroups. com <mailto:STMFC% 40yahoogroups. com>
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 7:05 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Flatcar planking - size of boards? 2x6 seems small
I am building a wood deck for my CB&Q 52' flat and the original brass
deck measures out to a 2x6 which seems small. What size planking
should I be using? Thanks.
Jason Sanford
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Flatcar planking - size of boards? 2x6 seems small

Bruce Smith
 

On Aug 19, 2008, at 11:00 AM, rwitt_2000 wrote:


Bruce Smith wrote:
snip

I too have used scale lumber to build decks and I REALLY like the way
they look. When I do that, I start at each end and work towards the
middle. With a few boards to go, you should test the fit of the
remaining boards, as you may need to sand down several to make them
fit. This small adjustment in several boards will look much better
than having a half board in the middle of the car.

Bruce,

You raise an interesting point and question "How did car builders place
the decking on flat cars?" Did they start from the ends as you do or
from the middle. I have no idea.
Bob,

I think that however you can think to do it, it was done that way by someone <G>

To save costs, I would suggest that on
actual flat cars there would be an odd width board or two and that would
be prototypical. There also is the type of flatcar design where the top
of the body bolsters are flush with the decking so these cars have
smaller openings to fit the decking into creating the potential for even
more odd width boards.
70 ton flats usually, which interestingly includes the PRR F30A where I mentioned that there was a range in the width of boards <G>


Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0


Re: Flatcar planking - size of boards? 2x6 seems small

rwitt_2000
 

Bruce Smith wrote:
snip

I too have used scale lumber to build decks and I REALLY like the way
they look. When I do that, I start at each end and work towards the
middle. With a few boards to go, you should test the fit of the
remaining boards, as you may need to sand down several to make them
fit. This small adjustment in several boards will look much better
than having a half board in the middle of the car.

Bruce,

You raise an interesting point and question "How did car builders place
the decking on flat cars?" Did they start from the ends as you do or
from the middle. I have no idea. To save costs, I would suggest that on
actual flat cars there would be an odd width board or two and that would
be prototypical. There also is the type of flatcar design where the top
of the body bolsters are flush with the decking so these cars have
smaller openings to fit the decking into creating the potential for even
more odd width boards.

Bob Witt


ADMIN: Re: Re: Freight car distribution

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

As I noted in my message of August 18, we have just about drained the useful
information out of the frt car distribution thread. I also asked in that
thread for opinions regarding the acceptable "error" in the predicting
capability of what I refer to as the Nelson/Gilbert theory. The point has
always been, to me, that, while the theory is logically interesting, how
does it perform?

Walter Clark writes:

"Tim's and Dave's analysis was only on a few trains on a couple of
lines (UP and Southern, if I read everything correctly), but the
analysis yields results that are more accurate the more
trains/lines/months/years you check."

Well, I don't have the data from the Southern train but I do have Tim's results from his 1947 UP data and, of course, I have the 1949 UP data...which I copied to Tim and he analyzed. The theory worked fairly well with the 1947 data...777 box cars...but the 1949 data...almost twice the size...1325 box cars...in Tim's words "blew it all to hell".

"What I (and I think Tim and
Dave)am saying is that once you get a large enough sample size (and
the point I was trying to make using the poker chips, surveys and
birthdays is that the necessary sample size is a lot smaller and need
not be nearly as wide-spread as most people think) you can make quite
accurate projections for a much larger universe."

That's fine. I would have no problems with the theory IF it were "proven". IOW, suppose we had data from say 30 RRs, each of about 35 trains. If the analyzer studied the data and noticed that the % of foreign box cars on a given RR matched the national % of the foreign box cars for these 1050 trains, I would think we had a good theory. I would think it would predict the number of foreign box cars on a given RR for a much longer period of time...say a yr. If we only had the data from 2 RRs to work from I would conclude that we MIGHT have a good theory. If, however, we had the data from 3 RRs to work from and the data from the largest did NOT support the theory, I would try to alter the theory to match the data or accept the theory at great risk. Unfortunately, this is the case when one applies the theory to the 1949 UP data. IMO. If what I am saying is incorrect, please let me know.

The thread will remain open for replies. I would also remind the members that this is a discussion within the scope of the group. It should also be conducted within the rules of the group...meaning in a civil manner.

Mike Brock
STMFC Owner


Re: Steam Era B&O Railroad Painting and Lettering Diagram Book now Available.

NicholasF
 

Drawings start in 1926 for hopper cars, flat cars and gondolas, we
have one 1955 conceptual drawing for an M-55 boxcar.

Tale Care
-Nick Fry
Archivist
Director at Large BORRHS
http://www.borhs.org


--- In STMFC@..., Cyril and Lynn Durrenberger
<durrecj@...> wrote:

Could you please tell us the exact time period these cover.

Cyril Durrenberger

nfryumbc <borhsarchives@...> wrote:
The B&O Railroad Historical Society is happy to announce
that a
selection of steam era B&O Painting and Lettering Diagrams are now
available via our new publication "Scans from the Archives Vol. 3"

A more detailed description is available here:
Item 79453: "BORHS Scans from the Archives Volume 3. Diagrams of
Selected Freight Cars Painting and Lettering Schemes." This item is a
combination of booklet 79413 and CD 40113, each having the same title
and contents, i.e, the booklet is a hard copy version of the digital
images on the CD. Neither the booklet nor the CD are now available
individually. The diagrams are the result of years of work sorting and
digitizing drawings held by the Archives of the B&O Railroad
Historical Society. The contents of this product are 27 drawings of
various classes of box cars, hopper cars, gondola cars, and flat cars."

Orders can be placed via the BORRHS Company Store at:
http://www.borhs.org/Shopping/index.html

Take Care
-Nick Fry
Archivist
Director at Large
B&O Railroad Historical Society

http://www.borhs.org








duck out of water on the RDG

ed_mines
 

Yesterday I saw a RDG retrospective on "Trains and Locomotives" on RFD-
TV.

The first segment was all steam (both B&W and color)including a
camelback.

There was a MILW 2 bay offset hopper in a string of RDG hoppers
followed by a steam pusher (my guess is that this could be no later
than the mid 1950s).

Ed


Re: Steam Era B&O Railroad Painting and Lettering Diagram Book now Available.

Cyril Durrenberger
 

Could you please tell us the exact time period these cover.

Cyril Durrenberger

nfryumbc <borhsarchives@...> wrote:
The B&O Railroad Historical Society is happy to announce that a
selection of steam era B&O Painting and Lettering Diagrams are now
available via our new publication "Scans from the Archives Vol. 3"

A more detailed description is available here:
Item 79453: "BORHS Scans from the Archives Volume 3. Diagrams of
Selected Freight Cars Painting and Lettering Schemes." This item is a
combination of booklet 79413 and CD 40113, each having the same title
and contents, i.e, the booklet is a hard copy version of the digital
images on the CD. Neither the booklet nor the CD are now available
individually. The diagrams are the result of years of work sorting and
digitizing drawings held by the Archives of the B&O Railroad
Historical Society. The contents of this product are 27 drawings of
various classes of box cars, hopper cars, gondola cars, and flat cars."

Orders can be placed via the BORRHS Company Store at:
http://www.borhs.org/Shopping/index.html

Take Care
-Nick Fry
Archivist
Director at Large
B&O Railroad Historical Society

http://www.borhs.org


Steam Era B&O Railroad Painting and Lettering Diagram Book now Available.

NicholasF
 

The B&O Railroad Historical Society is happy to announce that a
selection of steam era B&O Painting and Lettering Diagrams are now
available via our new publication "Scans from the Archives Vol. 3"

A more detailed description is available here:
Item 79453: "BORHS Scans from the Archives Volume 3. Diagrams of
Selected Freight Cars Painting and Lettering Schemes." This item is a
combination of booklet 79413 and CD 40113, each having the same title
and contents, i.e, the booklet is a hard copy version of the digital
images on the CD. Neither the booklet nor the CD are now available
individually. The diagrams are the result of years of work sorting and
digitizing drawings held by the Archives of the B&O Railroad
Historical Society. The contents of this product are 27 drawings of
various classes of box cars, hopper cars, gondola cars, and flat cars."

Orders can be placed via the BORRHS Company Store at:
http://www.borhs.org/Shopping/index.html

Take Care
-Nick Fry
Archivist
Director at Large
B&O Railroad Historical Society

http://www.borhs.org


2009 Pittsburgh RPM

golden1014
 

Hey Guys,
 
Does anybody know the dates for Larry Kline's RPM Meet over in Pittsburgh in 2009?  I hear there will be some steam freight car (required content) models there.
 
Thanks,
John

John Golden
Bloomington, IN

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Flatcar planking - size of boards? 2x6 seems small

Bruce Smith
 

On Aug 18, 2008, at 11:19 PM, Rob & Bev Manley wrote:

Jason,
I am building a Westrail A.A.R. Fifty Ton, 53'6" flatcar resin kit. The deck was originally scribed styrene. I decided that since I wasn't going to build the scale underframe, I will use Kappler lumber for a board by board deck. The kit's fact sheet says the boards were 2 3/8" x 7 3/4" planks and were creosoted.
Rob,

On the subject of creosoted lumber for flat car decks. We've learned here previously some railroads did precisely that (e.g. AT&SF), and that others (e.g. PRR) did not (Pennsy used oak, which was considered a "junk" hardwood at the time). It may have been related to the availability of different types of lumber in different locations, or to differing cost-benefit analysis. I have no idea which the NP used, although I modeled my Northern Specific car with an uncreosoted deck.

In addition, in looking at the specs for the PRR's F30A flat cars, the lumber width varied between about 6" and 9".

I too have used scale lumber to build decks and I REALLY like the way they look. When I do that, I start at each end and work towards the middle. With a few boards to go, you should test the fit of the remaining boards, as you may need to sand down several to make them fit. This small adjustment in several boards will look much better than having a half board in the middle of the car.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0


Re: Freight car distribution

water.kresse@...
 

Is there some way to limit this subject to say no more than say 5 e-mails per day? . . . . unless there is NEW real data to share? . . . . or is there some way to make this a sub-group that one has an option to receive?

Al Kresse

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Magnetic airhoses

Manfred Lorenz
 

All,

Many components get close to scale dimensions. Why not the airhose as
has been mentioned before. To make a scale gladhand I need the
dimensions of it better a measured drawing. Is there any available?

Manfred

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