Date   

Re: ORER inaccuracy

Robert kirkham
 

Hi Dave

Though I have not attempted to turn an entire ORER into a database, as someone who has attempted to trace the history of particular categories of cars through several decades using both ORERs and other data, I can relate to much of what you described. Have you input that data by hand or found any way to scan it in?

My first efforts with tracking cars in ORERs (attempting to track the CPR's flat car fleet matched to photos for each number series) ended in a quagmire of incomplete data where whole number series disappeared over a couple of years and no clear explanation was evident. Fleet re-numberings in the early years didn't help either. I've spent some time attempting a more sophisticated approach on refrigerator cars, but have only worked through half of the relevant time period yet.

A good friend of mine has suggested that the answer for identifying a group or class of cars is to link a number of the attributes. We've attempted to start something like that for tank cars we can document as having served in our local and approx. modelling era. So original lot numbers, builder identification, built date, dimensions, materials, etc can each be used with car number series as ways of identifying cars. But as you have observed - these signifiers often change as the years go by. I've found it helps to be able to find the first entry for a series of cars, as it can be very difficult to sort out series made up of a number of originally distinct series.

So I continue to find these efforts are extremely time consuming. I'll be very interested to see what you have done when you're ready Dave.

Rob Kirkham


From: Dave Nelson
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 10:55 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [STMFC] ORER inaccuracy


Rob, I have 99% of the 4/50 ORER in a relational database (what's still
missing are many of the entries in the little boxes at the end)... and at
least half of another ORER from 1948. The second one was added precisely
for the purpose you have in mind.

That said, there is are a few "little" issues here that I've never been able
to bring myself to resolve: First, how to tell it's the same car from year
to year. Obviously if the car series is the same and the dimensions are the
same, they're the same car recorded in two different years. Where it gets
hard is when there is a renumbering. With that it's no longer possible to
link identical cars without having an overall data concept which, for better
or worse, one could call "Car Class". Some railroads did maintain such
information. Sort of. Most didn't. And of course one could also aggregate
"Car Class" into something that cuts across railroads, such as "Design". So
far, bad, but not too bad. Where it gets really hard is the concept of
version management. When a car class has an interior lining change and the
dimensions are now slightly different... Is it the same "Car Class" or not?
And if it is the same, is there a need to record Rev A and Rev B? How much
change do you accept before you say it's no longer a Rev but a new Class?
Worst of all is doing the first pass thru all the data to make the intial
assignment of a car class.

What I have now is an ability to link by car series, w/o regard to minor
changes in the actual car series value. And I also have a first pass at car
class based on identical values of certain key dimesions.

Here's what remains open (and why I haven't pushed forward): How does car
class relate to Acquisition (e.g., the New Date)? Builder? Clearly one Car
Class can have multiple Builders and multiple Acquisition dates. And that
information is usually tied to an Original Car Series value... Which may or
may not be the value I've got in my database. And that any one current Car
Series may actually be an aggregation of multiple Original Car Series.

So when it's all laid out on paper, it looks (sort of) like this:

1) One Car Design can have one to many Car Classes, spread across multiple
railroads.
2) One Car Class for each railroad can have one to many Original Car Series.
3) One Original Car Series can have zero to many Sub Series, based on
Acquisition Dates, probably one per Builder, but perhaps more.
4) One Original Car series can have one or more ORER-Date Car Series,
ordered by date.
5) One ORER-Date Car Series can have one to many lines on the page.
6) One ORER-Date Car Series lines can have zero to many other ORER-Date Car
Series lines (to record break outs and consolidations).

And what I have is ORER data by ORER-Date Car Series lines. That's line 6.
What I'm not keen on doing is the work to populate lines 1 thru 5.

If you want to discuss it further, I'm open to talk about it.

Dave Nelson
P.S. As far as inaccuracy goes, there are errors in the ORER but not too
many. Things like one dimension being greater than another when you know
that's just not possibly correct (e.g., Interior > Exterior). Having it all
in a database made queries for such oddities rather easy.

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rob
Kirkham

Given the assertion (and I doubt any will argue it) that the ORER lists
would include equipment that was not really available for service - whether
retired or in storage or .... etc - is there a realistic research approach
one could adopt to try to identify what parts of a given railway's fleet
were no longer in service?

I wonder if anyone has spent any time developing a useful approach for
sorting out this kind of question? I'd like to hear what approaches you

taken when sorting out the history of a given group of freight cars....

Rob Kirkham

--------------------------------------------------


Re: ORER inaccuracy

Dave Nelson
 

Rob, I have 99% of the 4/50 ORER in a relational database (what's still
missing are many of the entries in the little boxes at the end)... and at
least half of another ORER from 1948. The second one was added precisely
for the purpose you have in mind.

That said, there is are a few "little" issues here that I've never been able
to bring myself to resolve: First, how to tell it's the same car from year
to year. Obviously if the car series is the same and the dimensions are the
same, they're the same car recorded in two different years. Where it gets
hard is when there is a renumbering. With that it's no longer possible to
link identical cars without having an overall data concept which, for better
or worse, one could call "Car Class". Some railroads did maintain such
information. Sort of. Most didn't. And of course one could also aggregate
"Car Class" into something that cuts across railroads, such as "Design". So
far, bad, but not too bad. Where it gets really hard is the concept of
version management. When a car class has an interior lining change and the
dimensions are now slightly different... Is it the same "Car Class" or not?
And if it is the same, is there a need to record Rev A and Rev B? How much
change do you accept before you say it's no longer a Rev but a new Class?
Worst of all is doing the first pass thru all the data to make the intial
assignment of a car class.

What I have now is an ability to link by car series, w/o regard to minor
changes in the actual car series value. And I also have a first pass at car
class based on identical values of certain key dimesions.

Here's what remains open (and why I haven't pushed forward): How does car
class relate to Acquisition (e.g., the New Date)? Builder? Clearly one Car
Class can have multiple Builders and multiple Acquisition dates. And that
information is usually tied to an Original Car Series value... Which may or
may not be the value I've got in my database. And that any one current Car
Series may actually be an aggregation of multiple Original Car Series.

So when it's all laid out on paper, it looks (sort of) like this:

1) One Car Design can have one to many Car Classes, spread across multiple
railroads.
2) One Car Class for each railroad can have one to many Original Car Series.
3) One Original Car Series can have zero to many Sub Series, based on
Acquisition Dates, probably one per Builder, but perhaps more.
4) One Original Car series can have one or more ORER-Date Car Series,
ordered by date.
5) One ORER-Date Car Series can have one to many lines on the page.
6) One ORER-Date Car Series lines can have zero to many other ORER-Date Car
Series lines (to record break outs and consolidations).

And what I have is ORER data by ORER-Date Car Series lines. That's line 6.
What I'm not keen on doing is the work to populate lines 1 thru 5.

If you want to discuss it further, I'm open to talk about it.

Dave Nelson
P.S. As far as inaccuracy goes, there are errors in the ORER but not too
many. Things like one dimension being greater than another when you know
that's just not possibly correct (e.g., Interior > Exterior). Having it all
in a database made queries for such oddities rather easy.

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rob
Kirkham

Given the assertion (and I doubt any will argue it) that the ORER lists
would include equipment that was not really available for service - whether
retired or in storage or .... etc - is there a realistic research approach
one could adopt to try to identify what parts of a given railway's fleet
were no longer in service?

I wonder if anyone has spent any time developing a useful approach for
sorting out this kind of question? I'd like to hear what approaches you

taken when sorting out the history of a given group of freight cars....

Rob Kirkham

--------------------------------------------------


Re: ORER inaccuracy

Robert kirkham
 

Two answers to that Tony.

First, re-reading my own e-mail, the language I chose was a bit clumsy. - I was meaning (as I think you rightly read it) that the ORERs aren't perceived as an entirely accurate source of information on cars actually in service. Your information based on PFE tells me that impression isn't necessarily sound.

Second answer: I'm not really speaking from knowledge but from what some have at least alluded to during the freight car distribution thread. I'm also referring to comments I recall from long ago e-mails about larger eastern US railroads (PRR?) with strings of cars sitting unused for years at a time - cars apparently still listed in the ORERs. I'm also under the impression that some of the Canadian railway listings continued to list cars after they had moved into non-revenue service. No data - just impressions from what others have said.

From your comments Tony, I guess the question I ought to have asked first should have been: what is the general perception of the ORER as a record of the actual fleet in revenue service at any given time during the later steam era? Does it include cars that for all practical purposes were not in that service - and if so, to what extent?

Rob Kirkham


From: Anthony Thompson
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 10:17 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] ORER inaccuracy


Rob Kirkham wrote:
Given the assertion (and I doubt any will argue it) that the ORER
lists would include equipment that was not really available for
service - whether retired or in storage or .... etc
How do you reach this conclusion, Rob? An SP employee I
interviewed, who had worked on the ORER submissions for his railroad in
the 1960s, said that his group worked hard to weed out the cars which
were GONE (scrapped, etc.) but did retain those undergoing normal
repairs.
The biggest data set I can think of is the PFE roster. From 1920
to about 1958, there were monthly reports from EACH shop, giving a list
of all cars held for minor, major or rebuilding repairs, along with
scrapping. Each month there was a company-wide tally of all these
categories, in effect making an "active" list for PFE for that month.
The corresponding issues of the ORER (one month later) very accurately
track this, making me think those same shop reports were probably the
basis for the PFE's ORER submission.
All those shop reports, incidentally, are available to anyone;
they are at CSRM.
I can't speak for railroads generally, but I wonder at the basis
for your assertion. Maybe others can offer examples from railroads they
know well.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: ADMIN: Re: Re: Freight car distribution

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Malcolm Laughlin wrote:
Trying to observe last four words of the above quopte from Mike, I
can sympathize with Tony’s frustration in having a theory apparently
dear to his heart logically questioned after its being uncontested for
several years. But ……. no point going further absent a summary of
information buried in the archives about what Tim G actually did
calculate.
Having failed to make a cogent argument, Malcolm is resorting to
insult. I've replied to him in more detail off-list and will have
nothing further to say to him ON this list.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: ORER inaccuracy

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Rob Kirkham wrote:
Given the assertion (and I doubt any will argue it) that the ORER lists would include equipment that was not really available for service - whether retired or in storage or .... etc
How do you reach this conclusion, Rob? An SP employee I interviewed, who had worked on the ORER submissions for his railroad in the 1960s, said that his group worked hard to weed out the cars which were GONE (scrapped, etc.) but did retain those undergoing normal repairs.
The biggest data set I can think of is the PFE roster. From 1920 to about 1958, there were monthly reports from EACH shop, giving a list of all cars held for minor, major or rebuilding repairs, along with scrapping. Each month there was a company-wide tally of all these categories, in effect making an "active" list for PFE for that month. The corresponding issues of the ORER (one month later) very accurately track this, making me think those same shop reports were probably the basis for the PFE's ORER submission.
All those shop reports, incidentally, are available to anyone; they are at CSRM.
I can't speak for railroads generally, but I wonder at the basis for your assertion. Maybe others can offer examples from railroads they know well.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: DS/SS split 1938 help needed

Steve and Barb Hile
 

Larry,

Doug Harding's question was essentially the same as yours with regards to the RI cars. They were class B1 with double wood sheathing over a steel car body framing and steel underframe.

Regards,
Steve Hile

----- Original Message -----
From: laramielarry
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 8:02 PM
Subject: [STMFC] DS/SS split 1938 help needed


Hi Folks

I am transferring the box, auto and ventilator car data from the
January 1938 ORER into an Excel spreadsheet, and adding sheathing
type (DS/SS/Steel) and build/rebuild date as auxiliary information.
I have the sheathing type for about 95% of the U.S. fleet, and am
requesting your help in reducing the number of "unknowns". (See
message #69380 for the U.S. summary.)

Nearly a third of the "unknowns" are in the following series:
Road, AAR, Kind, Series, IL, IH, Door, Capy, Qty 1938, Qty 1942
ACL, VM, Box, 34000-36184, 36'0", 7'5", 6'0", 60000, 782, NA
CMO, XM, Box, 29200-31198, 40'0", 7'11", 5'0", 80000, 611, NA
CNW, XA, Auto, 34900-36898, 40'6", 10'0", 10'0", 80000, 997, 12
FW&D, XM, Box, 6001-7200, 40'0", 7'10", 5'6", 80000, 557, 442
IC, XM, Box, 245451-246200, 36'4.5", 8'0", 6'0", 80000, 664, NA
IC, XM, Box, 247001-247600, 36'4.5", 8'0", 6'0", 80000, 513, NA
IC, XM, Box, 330001-331800, 36'4.5", 8'0", 5'6", 80000, 794, NA
MP, XA, Auto, 82500-83249, 40'6", 10'0", 11'0", 80000, 735, 52
NC&StL, XM, Box, 13500-15099, 36'0", 8'0", 6'0", 80000, 1311, 352
RI, XM, Box, 33000-38199, 40'0", 7'11", 6'0", 80000, 2045, 124
RI, XM, Box, 38200-40699, 40'0", 7'11", 6'0", 80000, 1125, 91

Can someone identify whether these cars are DS, SS, or Steel and what
their build or rebuild dates were?

Thank you very much for whatever help you can provide.

Larry Ostresh
Laramie, Wyoming


Re: Boxcar Question

Steve and Barb Hile
 

Doug,

All of these could be RI boxcars, by number. They are all from the group of cars known as B1 boxcars. They were double sheathed wood, with a steel underframe and steel car body framing.

33000 - 34999 were built in 1906
35000 - 38199 were built in 1910
38200 - 40699 were built in 1912

I hope this is helpful.

Regards,
Steve Hile

----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Harding" <doug.harding@iowacentralrr.org>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Cc: "Steve Hile" <shile@mindspring.com>; "Denny Davids" <cowl@hickorytech.net>
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 10:00 PM
Subject: Boxcar Question


After the extensive analysis of boxcar distribution on the list, I have a question that may or may not be related. This is about
boxcar distribution, just from a different angle. I am currently researching the small town of Ocheyedan, Iowa which was located
on a Rock Island line in far NW Iowa. The local coop grain elevator has provided some documents, including an inventory audit for
1929. Included in that audit was the following information:

cars on hand, full of corn on May 31, 1929 at Cooperative Elevator Association, Ocheyedan, Iowa
Car Bu
33276 1108
40100 1436
36335 1684
36145 1704

I have a Jan 1941 ORER, so checked those numbers against the Rock Island, assuming they were RI cars on a RI track. I found the
numbers matched RI boxcars in 1941. What follows is the numbers with the 1941 ORER data.

with Data from the Jan 1941 ORER
Car Bu
33276 1108 XM CRIP 40' 80,000 stl underf
40100 1436 XM CRIP 40' 93,000 stl underf Z-bar
36335 1684 XM CRIP 40' 91,000 stl underf
36145 1704 XM CRIP 40' 91,000 stl underf

I have several questions:
1) did the RI have boxcars with these numbers in 1929? If yes, are they the same cars as in 1941 or different cars?
2) what is the chance that the elevator would have four RI boxcars loaded with grain, and not one or more cars from other
railroads (OK you data hounds, let us have it)
3) do these numbers match boxcars suitable for grain on other railroads we might see at the Ocheyedan elevator? If so what
cars/railroads


Doug Harding
www.iowacentralrr.org


Re: Freight car distribution M/StP

Allen Rueter
 

Mike,
don't be to quick to assume only GN/CBQ and NP/CB&Q at Minneapolis/St. Paul,
post steam era wheel reports show C&NW ran a close second to the Q on interchange
with the NP at M/StP.

Allen Rueter

----- Original Message ----
From: Mike Brock <brockm@brevard.net>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 8:34:14 PM
Subject: Re: ADMIN: Re: [STMFC] Re: Freight car distribution
8<
1) The loco-regional interchange model. This model says that by
virtue of proximity, connecting road percentages will be higher than
roads that are further away. FWIW, that does not mean that if
distant road X has 10% of the national fleet and close road Y has 2%
that there should be more Y cars than X cars, but only that the % of
Y should be above 2% and by default, the % of X must be below 10%.
No data sets have been offered to support this model."

The model that I prefer is a modified Nelson/Gilbert model which states that
RRs with "significant interchange" should have from 2 to 2.5 times the
national %. The 1949 Fraley supports this scenario. "Significant
interchange" would be one in which one RR terminates and a very high % of
its traffic continues on another. Examples are UP/SP at Ogden, UT, UP/Milw
and UP/CB&Q and UP/C&NW at Council Bluffs/Omaha. Add GN/CB&Q and NP/CB&Q in
Minneapolis/ St. Paul and SP/RI and SP/SSW. I would not include UP/Mopac at
Omaha or the other Omaha RRs. There might be others as well. I would not
include RRs that simply connect as in the case of Southern and SP and Mopac
at New Orleans, PRR and Mopac at St. Louis, SR and B&O at St. Louis, SR with
N&W at Cicinnati. FEC and SR, SAL and RF&P would need study.


Re: ADMIN: Re: Re: Freight car distribution

Jack Burgess
 

I haven't been following this thread closely since I model a point-to-point
short line railroad which had interchanges with both the SP and ATSF; as
such, there wasn't any through freight and all foreign cars had to be handed
over from/to one of these two interchanges. From a number of different
factors, I have concluded that the YV was more closely affiliated with the
SP rather than the ATSF (Pullman interchange with the SP and not the ATSF in
later years, leasing of SP engines when needed, leasing an SP diner each
summer, etc.) From a VERY limited number of resources, it is still obvious
to me that there were more SP foreign cars on the YV than any other
railroad, with ATSF cars second. All of the box cars tended to be from
western railroads...SP, ATSF, WP, NP, etc. Tank cars were, from my limited
information, all UTLX tank cars. Refrigerator cars were limited to PFE and
some ATSF. But what prompted me to contribute to the confusion radiating
from this thread is a statement from Malcolm:

Because railroads didn�t keep counts of foreign cars on line by
ownership, the necessary data sets probably never existed. So
the choice is between...
I have photocopies of some ledger sheets prepared by the YV for the
Association of American Railroads for a report entitled "Empty Cars on Hand
as of Specific Date" which lists the empty cars on the YV as of the 15th of
the month and the end of the month by OWNER and CAR TYPE. For example, SP
box car, ATSF box car, UP auto car, etc. The information I have is very
limited....only from December 31, 1936 to March 31, 1937. But apparently
railroads did track and report this stuff, at least at one time....

Jack Burgess
www.yosemitevalleyrr.com


Re: Boxcar Question

feddersenmark
 

Doug, Further checking shows in 1945 33000 to 34999-1 car, 35000 to
38199- 2 cars, 38200 to 40699-1 car. All 80,000 and 2692 cu. ft.
although the lengths are now 42'1", 42'1" and 42'3" respectively. By
1950 there were no cars with these numbers. Mark











--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "feddersenmark" <feddersenmark@...>
wrote:

Doug, My 1928 and 1930 ORERs show; XM Box,steel underframe,#'s
33000
to 40699, outside dimensions 40'11 1/2", eves 9'6' extreme 10',
side
door 6' x 7' 8",cu ft 2692, 80,000lbs., 7,379 cars in 1928 and
7,327
in 1930. So, conceivably your cars could all be R.I. of the same
class. Perhaps, 40100, 36335 and 36145 were rebuilt sometime after
1930. Hope this helps. Mark








--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Douglas Harding" <dharding@> wrote:

After the extensive analysis of boxcar distribution on the list,
I
have a question that may or may not be related. This is about
boxcar distribution, just from a different angle. I am currently
researching the small town of Ocheyedan, Iowa which was located
on a Rock Island line in far NW Iowa. The local coop grain
elevator
has provided some documents, including an inventory audit for
1929. Included in that audit was the following information:

cars on hand, full of corn on May 31, 1929 at Cooperative
Elevator
Association, Ocheyedan, Iowa
Car Bu
33276 1108
40100 1436
36335 1684
36145 1704

I have a Jan 1941 ORER, so checked those numbers against the Rock
Island, assuming they were RI cars on a RI track. I found the
numbers matched RI boxcars in 1941. What follows is the numbers
with the 1941 ORER data.

with Data from the Jan 1941 ORER
Car Bu
33276 1108 XM CRIP 40' 80,000 stl underf
40100 1436 XM CRIP 40' 93,000 stl underf Z-
bar
36335 1684 XM CRIP 40' 91,000 stl underf
36145 1704 XM CRIP 40' 91,000 stl underf

I have several questions:
1) did the RI have boxcars with these numbers in 1929? If yes,
are
they the same cars as in 1941 or different cars?
2) what is the chance that the elevator would have four RI
boxcars
loaded with grain, and not one or more cars from other
railroads (OK you data hounds, let us have it)
3) do these numbers match boxcars suitable for grain on other
railroads we might see at the Ocheyedan elevator? If so what
cars/railroads


Doug Harding
www.iowacentralrr.org


ADMIN: The Philosophy of the STMFC

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Every now and then I feel the need to once again point out one of the major elements of the philosophy of the STMFC. From the very beginning of the group members have been encouraged to announce their views on subjects pertaining to steam era frt cars. Some of the views might be with regard to a particular model. The views might be pro...or con. One member might make a pro comment while another member might make a con. The forum then becomes somewhat like a debate. Members make their views and support them with facts and opinions. What should be noted is that one member's view might well be in direct conflict with another's. There is nothing wrong with that and the only real problem is when a member takes offense that others don't agree with them. IOW, just because you might be absolutely convinced that you are correct in some view, don't expect everyone else to agree. When you consider subjects like color and what I call the Nelson/Gilbert theory...neither of which can be proved beyond any doubt...there shouldn't be any doubt that disagreements will occur. So, take my advice and just make your views known...if you wish...and let others make their own judgements using what is presented. If others fail to grasp the truth and elequence of your argument...as in the case when my position is not accepted <G>...it's a loss for the others. Last, remember that you MIGHT be wrong [ gasp ] so don't take offense and become offensive regarding other's views. Why, back in 2004...or was it 2006...I think I erred about something...can't remember what of course. I...Oh yes...I misused the words "sale", "sell" and "sail"...again.

Mike Brock


ADMIN: Re: Re: Freight car distribution

Walter M. Clark
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Brock" <brockm@...> wrote:

Walter Clark writes:

"Bruce, I've decided to use model #4, which is I'll select from the
universe of box cars built before my modeling date of November 1941,
and painted box car red (running for shelter)."

I like that one, Walter. Uh...which box car red?<G>

Mike Brock
Walter Clark's voice echoes from the bomb shelter "Mike, it's got to
be the correct box car red. You know that."

I might just allow one box car in something other than box car red.
How about one of the MKT yellow cars to carry bananas?

Time stopped in November 1941
Walter M. Clark
Pullman, Washington, USA


Re: Boxcar Question

feddersenmark
 

Doug, My 1928 and 1930 ORERs show; XM Box,steel underframe,#'s 33000
to 40699, outside dimensions 40'11 1/2", eves 9'6' extreme 10', side
door 6' x 7' 8",cu ft 2692, 80,000lbs., 7,379 cars in 1928 and 7,327
in 1930. So, conceivably your cars could all be R.I. of the same
class. Perhaps, 40100, 36335 and 36145 were rebuilt sometime after
1930. Hope this helps. Mark








--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Douglas Harding" <dharding@...> wrote:

After the extensive analysis of boxcar distribution on the list, I
have a question that may or may not be related. This is about
boxcar distribution, just from a different angle. I am currently
researching the small town of Ocheyedan, Iowa which was located
on a Rock Island line in far NW Iowa. The local coop grain elevator
has provided some documents, including an inventory audit for
1929. Included in that audit was the following information:

cars on hand, full of corn on May 31, 1929 at Cooperative Elevator
Association, Ocheyedan, Iowa
Car Bu
33276 1108
40100 1436
36335 1684
36145 1704

I have a Jan 1941 ORER, so checked those numbers against the Rock
Island, assuming they were RI cars on a RI track. I found the
numbers matched RI boxcars in 1941. What follows is the numbers
with the 1941 ORER data.

with Data from the Jan 1941 ORER
Car Bu
33276 1108 XM CRIP 40' 80,000 stl underf
40100 1436 XM CRIP 40' 93,000 stl underf Z-bar
36335 1684 XM CRIP 40' 91,000 stl underf
36145 1704 XM CRIP 40' 91,000 stl underf

I have several questions:
1) did the RI have boxcars with these numbers in 1929? If yes, are
they the same cars as in 1941 or different cars?
2) what is the chance that the elevator would have four RI boxcars
loaded with grain, and not one or more cars from other
railroads (OK you data hounds, let us have it)
3) do these numbers match boxcars suitable for grain on other
railroads we might see at the Ocheyedan elevator? If so what
cars/railroads


Doug Harding
www.iowacentralrr.org


Re: Freight car distribution

Steve SANDIFER
 

For what it's worth, I add the following link.
http://atsfrr.net/resources/Sandifer/Howard/Climax/Cars.htm

Some may have seen this already. Climax is a very small town on the now gone Santa Fe Howard District in eastern Kansas, due south of Emporia. The town consisted of a house track and an elevator track in addition to the main. The above page shows every car spotted in Climax in a 10 month period of 1945. Of special notice to this list may be those with the note of #6. These 73 empty box cars were brought for an alfalfa mill that was 5 miles up the track. Notice that these cars come from: ATSF, Soo, C&NW, PRR, L&N, Sou, NP, DT&I, NYC, GM&O, MILW, RI, CN, N&W, CGW, LTSE, IHB, IC, B&O, CB&Q, MEC, PM, B&O, NKP, C&O, IC, SP, WAB, MP, OWR&N, SLSF, ACL, and UP. That's 60 empty boxes from 32 foreign roads in addition to the Santa Fe. Only 13 of 73 cars were ATSF.
______________
J. Stephen (Steve) Sandifer
mailto:steve.sandifer@sbcglobal.net
Home: 12027 Mulholland Drive, Meadows Place, TX 77477, 281-568-9918
Office: Southwest Central Church of Christ, 4011 W. Bellfort, Houston, TX 77025, 713-667-9417


Boxcar Question

Douglas Harding <dharding@...>
 

After the extensive analysis of boxcar distribution on the list, I have a question that may or may not be related. This is about
boxcar distribution, just from a different angle. I am currently researching the small town of Ocheyedan, Iowa which was located
on a Rock Island line in far NW Iowa. The local coop grain elevator has provided some documents, including an inventory audit for
1929. Included in that audit was the following information:

cars on hand, full of corn on May 31, 1929 at Cooperative Elevator Association, Ocheyedan, Iowa
Car Bu
33276 1108
40100 1436
36335 1684
36145 1704

I have a Jan 1941 ORER, so checked those numbers against the Rock Island, assuming they were RI cars on a RI track. I found the
numbers matched RI boxcars in 1941. What follows is the numbers with the 1941 ORER data.

with Data from the Jan 1941 ORER
Car Bu
33276 1108 XM CRIP 40' 80,000 stl underf
40100 1436 XM CRIP 40' 93,000 stl underf Z-bar
36335 1684 XM CRIP 40' 91,000 stl underf
36145 1704 XM CRIP 40' 91,000 stl underf

I have several questions:
1) did the RI have boxcars with these numbers in 1929? If yes, are they the same cars as in 1941 or different cars?
2) what is the chance that the elevator would have four RI boxcars loaded with grain, and not one or more cars from other
railroads (OK you data hounds, let us have it)
3) do these numbers match boxcars suitable for grain on other railroads we might see at the Ocheyedan elevator? If so what
cars/railroads


Doug Harding
www.iowacentralrr.org


Re: ADMIN: Re: Re: Freight car distribution

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

I will try to keep my response to this afternoon’s postings in the spirit of the following from Mike Brock.

> The thread will remain open for replies. I would also remind the members that this is a discussion within the scope of the group. It should also be conducted within the rules of the group...meaning in a civil manner.

Tony said
> “Malcolm has decided to oppose the idea, no matter what he's told. For his sake, and for the others in his camp, I've stopped trying to explain further.”

Trying to observe last four words of the above quopte from Mike, I can sympathize with Tony’s frustration in having a theory apparently dear to his heart logically questioned after its being uncontested for several years. But ……. no point going further absent a summary of information buried in the archives about what Tim G actually did calculate.

One other comment that should have a response

> 1) The loco-regional interchange model. This model says that by
virtue of proximity, connecting road percentages will be higher than
roads that are further away. ………..No data sets have been offered to support this model.

There are no data sets that truly support either model. Because railroads didn’t keep counts of foreign cars on line by ownership, the necessary data sets probably never existed. So the choice is between

a) a model that begins with a distribution in proportion to ownership, supported by a miniscule set of observed data not representative of any whole railroad.

b) a region/distance based model based on purely qualitative factors that are known to have influenced cars to move towards their home railroads.

My basic contention is that there is no reason to believe that some unknown factors negated the fiive factors that I mentioned in a way that caused cars to distribute themselves in proportion to ownership.

Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478


Re: ADMIN: Re: Re: Freight car distribution

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Walter Clark writes:

"Bruce, I've decided to use model #4, which is I'll select from the
universe of box cars built before my modeling date of November 1941,
and painted box car red (running for shelter)."

I like that one, Walter. Uh...which box car red?<G>

Mike Brock


Re: ADMIN: Re: Re: Freight car distribution

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Bruce Smith writes:

"I think Tim may have overstated the divergence of the 1949 data from
the theory <G>. The difference in 1949 are those annoying extra SP
cars... with the exception of those, the national fleet model is
still pretty accurate, correct?"

Not really. There is a similar problem with Milw, CB&Q and C&NW cars.

"If you did not have any knowledge of the 1949 wheel reports, how
would you set up your fleet?"

Hmmm. Good question. The trouble is, I have the Big Boy Collection video which shows 4 complete UP trains. One has those 36 SP box cars...

"I have looked high and low for wheel reports, or for that matter even
tower sheets from my chosen period of June 1944 for Columbia PA. I
have found nothing. Nada. Photos are rare due to wartime concerns.
Films do exist, but mostly on other parts of the PRR (they tend to
confirm the Gilbert fleet model and the Brock NP model). So, what
should my starting point be?"

As I see it, there are two major competing models being espoused (for
boxcars)

1) The loco-regional interchange model. This model says that by
virtue of proximity, connecting road percentages will be higher than
roads that are further away. FWIW, that does not mean that if
distant road X has 10% of the national fleet and close road Y has 2%
that there should be more Y cars than X cars, but only that the % of
Y should be above 2% and by default, the % of X must be below 10%.
No data sets have been offered to support this model."

The model that I prefer is a modified Nelson/Gilbert model which states that RRs with "significant interchange" should have from 2 to 2.5 times the national %. The 1949 Fraley supports this scenario. "Significant interchange" would be one in which one RR terminates and a very high % of its traffic continues on another. Examples are UP/SP at Ogden, UT, UP/Milw and UP/CB&Q and UP/C&NW at Council Bluffs/Omaha. Add GN/CB&Q and NP/CB&Q in Minneapolis/St. Paul and SP/RI and SP/SSW. I would not include UP/Mopac at Omaha or the other Omaha RRs. There might be others as well. I would not include RRs that simply connect as in the case of Southern and SP and Mopac at New Orleans, PRR and Mopac at St. Louis, SR and B&O at St. Louis, SR with N&W at Cicinnati. FEC and SR, SAL and RF&P would need study.

"2) The national fleet model. This model says that because boxcars
were freely interchanged that the % of a given car seen on any given
railroad over time should approximate the % of the car in the
national fleet. Model 2 is supported by several small data sets.

Additionally, there are data sets such as the 1949 Fraley and the
Potomac yard set that do not appear to match EITHER model exactly.
In both these cases, one to several roads appear to be "out of
kilter" compared to the rest.

Railroad historians can argue the whys forever, but I have a layout
to populate, so, what does this mean to us as modelers?

For you (Mike), is 1953 like either 1949 or 1947 or is it different
still? Does the fact that there's a war on make a difference? Do we
just throw up our hands and say it is unknowable, there is no perfect
model and I'll just put anything I damn well care to on my layout?
(we'll call that model 3 <G>)"

No. Like I say, I prefer a modified Nelson/Gilbert...at this time.

"I've always held that the national
fleet model is a STARTING place and that arriving at a realistic
fleet is an iterative process. It's not that the model is wrong and
useless, it is that 1949 on this line is a case where the model needs
to be adjusted."

My point.

"Both 1947 and 1949 follow the national fleet numbers
for most of the fleet, so why not start there and then perhaps
increase the SP numbers slightly, maybe 50% over expected numbers?
To model this line using the loco-regional model might result in the
correct % of SP cars, and the incorrect % of just about every other
road. I don't view that as a logical solution ;^)"

Neither do I. There are a lot of RRs that went into Omaha. I would choose to raise the number of cars of only 3...Milw, C&NW and CB&Q.

"My point is that while the national fleet model may not predict with
100% accuracy, it is a STARTING place, and in the absence of any
other data, provides you with a reasonable representation of the
steam era (based on the data sets). If someone is lucky enough to
develop additional data sources, then those can be used to modify the
national fleet model to represent some of those local deviations.
Situations that might be included would be some that have been named,
such as grain rush season and areas dense with automobile
manufacturers (and hence assigned service cars)."

We agree. Unfortunately, I'm beginning to analyze a Fraley 1956 book. It will probably show Maine Central cars in great numbers. <G>. It DOES include one very surprising train. Only UP could...

Mike Brock


Re: Freight car distribution UP > Wabash

Allen Rueter
 

Jeff,
The only notes I have say MP & UP connections were made with Wabash 82, 98 and 90, with up to three connections a day for 90, due to perishable traffic. It took about 75 minutes to get to UP Yard over the CBQ and KCT tracks, 4.8 miles from NKC Yard.

--
Allen Rueter
StLouis MO

----- Original Message ----
From: "Aley, Jeff A" <Jeff.A.Aley@intel.com>
To: "STMFC@yahoogroups.com" <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 2:04:13 AM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: Freight car distribution UP > Wabash


Allen,

Great data! Do you know if the UP -> Wabash traffic in KC was primarily PFE reefers? Or was it a lot of general merchandise?

Also, is it correct to assume that the Wabash received cars someplace near their freight house in the KC West Bottoms?

Thanks much,

-Jeff

____________ _________ _________ __
From: STMFC@yahoogroups. com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Allen Rueter
Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 6:27 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups. com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Freight car distribution UP > Wabash

A data point, the Wabash didn't get much from the UP in Council Bluffs (4100+ cars in '47),
but they did get 38500+ in KC.

--
Allen Rueter
StLouis MO


ADMIN: Re: Re: Freight car distribution

lnnrr <lnnrr@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "wmcclark1980" <walterclark@...> wrote:

Bruce, I've decided to use model #4, which is I'll select from the
universe of box cars built before my modeling date of November 1941,
and painted box car red (running for shelter).

Time stopped in November 1941
Walter M. Clark
Pullman, Washington, USA
Walter, hom many of those red boxcars will have bananas in them?
Green or Ripe?
Chuckles (Charles Peck)

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