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Re: ADMIN: Re: Re: Freight car distribution

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

John Stokes wrote:
Which is well and good to know, but where are all those mountains of reports now when we need them?
They're up at high altitude, helping warm the planet <g>.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Freight car distribution YV per diem

Larry Jackman <Ljack70117@...>
 

See my last post. The per diem was based on per day of cars on the RR. When I was on the Un Pac at Salina Ks the first thing the 10:30 yard engine did was grab the Cars for the Mop, RI and John Santa FE and make a run to get then on the Interchanges BEFOR 11:59 PM. If he did not get them there by 11:59 we paid another day of Per Diem.
By the way on the RRs I worked on there was no 12PM or 12AM. It was always 11:59 PM or 11:59 AM. Never 12 Noon or Midnight.
Thank you
Larry Jackman
ljack70117@comcast.net

On Aug 20, 2008, at 3:37 PM, Malcolm Laughlin wrote:

Posted by: "Jack Burgess" jack@yosemitevalleyrr.com yvrrus But wouldn't that information be needed every day to pay for per diem
charges?
============ An interesting point Jack. Sorry I didn't think of that earlier.

But the answer to your question is a current no and a later yes. There was no daily need for the information. The per diem settlement was made on a monthly basis. I have a vague recollection that two months were allowed for the calculation and then a month to make payment, on a net basis. Not sure of those numbers but it was months.

Interchange reports were, IIRC, collected by the freight agent (I could be wrong on that) and forwarded by company mail to the car accounting deaprtment. The per diem payment between railroads A and B was based on the rper diem rate multplied by the difference of car days of cars owned by B on railroad A and A's car days on B.

There was no need for a count by day or by car type as the per diem was a uniform rate per car per day.




Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478



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Re: Sunshine 50' Milwaukee autobox car kits.

Dennis Williams
 

Yes.  If you look closely at the crossmembers, you will nocice that they are "I" beams.  They do not receive caps. Happy building!!  Dennis

--- On Wed, 8/20/08, Denny Anspach <danspach@macnexus.org> wrote:

From: Denny Anspach <danspach@macnexus.org>
Subject: [STMFC] Sunshine 50' Milwaukee autobox car kits.
To: "STMFC" <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Wednesday, August 20, 2008, 12:06 PM






Please refresh my memory: I am in the midst of assembling two
Sunshine cast resin 50' Milwaukee auto boxcar kits, one ribside, one
flat welded. The Sunshine directions are the same as they included in
their earlier 40' ribside boxcar kit, which creates some problems.
The 40' directions specify and depict cast caps on the underframe
cross bearers and- the placement of a number of cross ties both
between bearers, but also between bearers and bolsters. However, none
are included in either of the kits, and there are no 50' underframe
photos to tell one way or another.

My preliminary conclusion is that the 50' cars did not have these
features (cross bearer caps and cross ties), and the directions simply
do not make this distinction.

Am I correct?

Denny S. Anspach MD
Okoboji, IA


















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: ADMIN: Re: Re: Freight car distribution

Stokes John
 

Which is well and good to know, but where are all those mountains of reports now when we need them?

John Stokes
Bellevue, WA



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: ADMIN: Re: Re: Freight car distribution

Larry Jackman <Ljack70117@...>
 

At 6 AM each morning the entire yard was check and recorded on a
special form. Two copies were sent to the accounting department and
two copies to the car department and one filed in the files where
they were recorded. This was done on the whole RR and was done on The
Un Pac and John Santa Fe. It is of my opinion that this was done on
every RR in the good old US of A, So at 6 AM every freight car in the
good old US of A was on record. So they not only needed to be known,
they were known.
Thank you
Larry Jackman
ljack70117@comcast.net

On Aug 20, 2008, at 7:05 PM, SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote:


In a message dated 8/19/2008 10:21:16 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
mlaughlinnyc@yahoo.com writes:

There are no data sets that truly support either model. Because
railroads
didn’t keep counts of foreign cars on line by ownership, the
necessary data
sets probably never existed. So the choice is between



I would suggest that this data was collected to some extent by the
accounting departments. How else would they determine the per
diem payments to the
various roads. Yes, I recognize that per deims were frequently
offset by Road
A with what Road B owed Road A and only the balance actually
paid. But
nevertheless the number of cars on property each day needed to be
known.

Rich Orr



**************It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find
your travel
deal here.
(http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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Re: The compilation of a 1956 UP Frt Conductor's Book

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Mike Brock wrote:
If you add the 9 T&NO to SP it becomes 52. However, that part of the SP obviously is not part of the Overland route so I don't include them in my "special, close association category.
Mike, there's no reason to think that SP and T&NO box cars were not freely mixed and used interchangeably. Awhile back I worked through some Sacramento, Los Angeles, and San Luis Obispo yard shots, and concluded that the percentage T&NO vs. SP was not too far below the respective fleet sizes. (In 1953, T&NO was almost exactly one-fourth of the Pacific Lines total.)

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


The compilation of a 1956 UP Frt Conductor's Book

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

To further excite frt car population buffs, I am in the process of compiling the list of box cars from another UP frt conductor's book...May 1956, Laramie/Cheyenne.

So far, through 18 trains, here are the results:

UP: 157
PRR: 48
NYC: 45
SP: 43
Milw: 22
CNW: 17
GN: 17
SR: 13
B&O:13
NP: 13
ATSF:11

Among other beauties is one N&W hopper [ thank you, thank you ] and one PRR hopper.

So, UP in a rout but who are you pulling for? Me? There are 10 WAB. As of now these data match my 1949 rather well. The surprise is GN. I'm pleased to see 13 NP's but there's some doubt with it because the conductor [ Fraley? ] wrote his Mop and NP very similarly and only the car number allows a distinction.

Another interesting aspect is that two "lumber trains" had a total of 16 SP box cars. If we did not have those trains the SP data would be far different...as ion 1949. OTOH, these trains always seem to be heavily populated with SP box cars...as in 1949. If you add the 9 T&NO to SP it becomes 52. However, that part of the SP obviously is not part of the Overland route so I don't include them in my "special, close association category.

Anyhow, I should complete this compilation by Thursday.

Go SP, beat NYC and PRR.

Mike Brock


Re: Freight car distribution UP Wabash

Tim O'Connor
 

Jeff, when I get a chance, I'll post the interchange data for the Alton at
KC, and you'll see what kinds of traffic and volumes were there. Unless
you are satisfied with Malcolm's well researched reply....

Tim O'Connor

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@yahoo.com>

Grain from Kansas and Nebraska, lumber form CA and the PNW come to mind
immediately, and anything originating on the DRGW.


Re: Boxcar Question

Ted Schnepf
 

Hi Doug,

I checked my 7/30 ORER and all the car classes are the same for the RI. It does seem unusual there is not a foreign car in the mix, but keep in mind the date is in the spring and that is normally a slow grain shipping time, so most foreign cars are probably off line. Farmers are tilling and planting the fields in May, and way too busy to worry about moving and selling grain.

Grain starts moving in the summer to provide storage room for the next crop soon to be harvested. In the fall and early winter when the elevators were very busy there would probably be foreign cars for loading.

Ted

At 10:00 PM 8/19/2008, you wrote:
After the extensive analysis of boxcar distribution on the list, I have a question that may or may not be related. This is about
boxcar distribution, just from a different angle. I am currently researching the small town of Ocheyedan, Iowa which was located
on a Rock Island line in far NW Iowa. The local coop grain elevator has provided some documents, including an inventory audit for
1929. Included in that audit was the following information:

cars on hand, full of corn on May 31, 1929 at Cooperative Elevator Association, Ocheyedan, Iowa
Car Bu
33276 1108
40100 1436
36335 1684
36145 1704

I have a Jan 1941 ORER, so checked those numbers against the Rock Island, assuming they were RI cars on a RI track. I found the
numbers matched RI boxcars in 1941. What follows is the numbers with the 1941 ORER data.

with Data from the Jan 1941 ORER
Car Bu
33276 1108 XM CRIP 40' 80,000 stl underf
40100 1436 XM CRIP 40' 93,000 stl underf Z-bar
36335 1684 XM CRIP 40' 91,000 stl underf
36145 1704 XM CRIP 40' 91,000 stl underf

I have several questions:
1) did the RI have boxcars with these numbers in 1929? If yes, are they the same cars as in 1941 or different cars?
2) what is the chance that the elevator would have four RI boxcars loaded with grain, and not one or more cars from other
railroads (OK you data hounds, let us have it)
3) do these numbers match boxcars suitable for grain on other railroads we might see at the Ocheyedan elevator? If so what
cars/railroads


Doug Harding
www.iowacentralrr.org


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Elgin, Ill. 60120
http://RailsUnlimited.ribbonrail.com/

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a personal touch.
Books new and used. HO and O scales.
DCC supplies. O scale urethane cars.
Photos and darkroom services.
Checks, cash (0%) or credit (secure server at web site 4% added).


Re: ORER inaccuracy

al_brown03
 

For each station, the Rutland had a "Schedule Showing Property
Changes Subsequent to Valuation Date 1917". The schedules are
reproduced in Nimke's books. What was done about cars, I don't know.

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

Dennis Storzek wrote:
Hmmm... I was under the impression that after the initial ICC
valuation of the railroads, the law mandated that it be kept
current.

This is correct. The SP employee I know who worked on ORER
submissions was in the SP's Valuation Department and they did
indeed
keep everything updated. But I don't know if that was reported to
the
ICC regularly. Years ago, I asked Bill Edson about that, and he
believed there were no such reporting records at the ICC, but of
course
he may have been wrong.

Then again, I seem to recall that it was this valuation process
that
prompted railroads (at least the Soo Line) to implement the
Authority
For Expenditure file system . . .
A Harriman Lines innovation, IIRC, which indeed spread
widely
if not universally. Could it have been mandated by the ICC at some
point?

. . . it is possible that this information wasn't even reported,
the
ICC just mandated that it be tracked, and the information be
available
in the RR's files if it was needed.
I would say this is the likeliest possibility.

Speaking of the Soo Line, I know the Mechanical Department at one
time
maintained a card file with a discrete card for every single car
on
the roster, on which items that could be classed as "betterments"
were
noted. I have seen some of the cards. Unfortunately, the file
itself
and most the cards are long gone.
Ditto for SP--they used 5x7 cards--but except for cabooses
and
MOW, all cards are gone AFAIK. But the PFE cards survive in
substantial
numbers (though well short of complete) at CSRM. What SP cards do
survive are mostly at CSRM also.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: ORER inaccuracy

Gene Green <bierglaeser@...>
 

The ICC required the AFEs as part of the valuation process so that
rates could be set that would give the RRs a proper return on
investment. The valuations needed to be kept up-to-date hence the
AFEs had to be submitted to the ICC along with a couple of other
required forms. In the case of the M&StL I have seen ICC
correspondence back to the RR about an AFE questioning an accounting
category or other aspect of the AFE.
Gene Green

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Dennis Storzek" <destorzek@...> wrote:

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Cyril and Lynn Durrenberger
<durrecj@> wrote:

The ICC valuation records do not provide good roster information
and
they were done at a given date, usually prior to 1920. Another
problem is that the same approach was not done for every railroad.

Cyril Durrenberger
Hmmm... I was under the impression that after the initial ICC
valuation of the railroads, the law mandated that it be kept
current.
So very likely the information is (or was) there, buried in the
archives, but one would have to start with the initial valuation and
then dig out each addition to and subtraction from that. Not an easy
task, and no telling if the updates are even available for study, if
they even still exist at all.

Then again, I seem to recall that it was this valuation process that
prompted railroads (at least the Soo Line) to implement the
Authority
For Expenditure file system, so it is possible that this information
wasn't even reported, the ICC just mandated that it be tracked, and
the information be available in the RR's files if it was needed.
That
means that the info now resides where each individual railroad kept
its archives, much of which is now lost.

Speaking of the Soo Line, I know the Mechanical Department at one
time
maintained a card file with a discrete card for every single car on
the roster, on which items that could be classed as "betterments"
were
noted. I have seen some of the cards. Unfortunately, the file itself
and most the cards are long gone.

Dennis


Re: ORER inaCcuracy

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

Here's another interesting source of discrepancies between the ORER and what was out on the railroad. Ever wonder about those long lists of exceptions for a car seires that listed cars with special equipment ?

They didn't select those cars by number. Say for example that Larrabee Truck Works was having a special type of frame brought in to their plant from the midwest and the cars had to be fitted with a special rack. Say the EL had a quota of ten cars for the pool and they decided that cars in the 56800 series would be suitable. The mechanical department informs transportation and the general transportation puts out an order to the yard at Marion to divert 10 cars with numbers between 56800 and 56950 to Hornell shop. The first ten such cars that were noticed by the yard clerks at Marion were sent to Hornell. The numbers were effectively a random selection.

Note that I said first ten cars "noticed", not first ten through the yard. The notice went on a clipboard with many other car specific orders. When the clerks had time they reviewed those notices. Personal experience - it once took me three days and conversations with five different yards to get a special flat car to where we really wanted it for loading.


Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478


Re: The Freight Car Distribution Project

water.kresse@...
 

PR department photographers the catch the newest in fresh paint to best show off their railroads. Unfortunately for a railroad like the C&O, it is coal, coal, and coal cars with some M of W cars in the background. Coal and Freight Manifest classification yards were separated many times.

Al Kresse

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "benjaminfrank_hom" <b.hom@worldnet.att.net>
Bruce Smith wrote:
"I think that there might be several problems with this approach but
the biggest problem is that you need to evaluate the numbers for one
place in one time period."

Another problem is that this approach does nothing to address the
fundamental flaw of using individual photos to do this analysis - the
fact that photographers are far more likely to lens the unusual rather
than the typical. Also, the time estimate of "only a few hours" is a
bit optimistic for some of us - it'll take those with large collections
a substantial investment of time.

Ben Hom


Re: The Freight Car Distribution Project

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Bruce Smith wrote:
"I think that there might be several problems with this approach but
the biggest problem is that you need to evaluate the numbers for one
place in one time period."

Another problem is that this approach does nothing to address the
fundamental flaw of using individual photos to do this analysis - the
fact that photographers are far more likely to lens the unusual rather
than the typical. Also, the time estimate of "only a few hours" is a
bit optimistic for some of us - it'll take those with large collections
a substantial investment of time.


Ben Hom


Re: The Freight Car Distribution Project

Dave Nelson
 

Can't the existing photographic evidence do this for us?
I don't think so. IMO, most photos are not a random sample of what's
present but are of a very specific choice made by the photographer, often to
capture what he perceieves to be unusual. On top of that, what good is a
sample that is likely to span a couple of decades?

Dave Nelson


Re: The Freight Car Distribution Project

Bruce Smith
 

On Aug 20, 2008, at 2:44 PM, Jim Betz wrote:

If I'm way off base here please enlighten me as to why ...

There are just shy of 1500 members on this list. It would see to me that
if those of us who are interested took just a few hours each to inspect the
photos in our books and compile

RR, Car#, location, RR photo taken of/on,
date, book title, and author (page?)

info into some common spreadsheet type that it would not take too long
before we would have a very credible sample of freight car distribution
that would stand the various tests of variables such as year, season,
branch or mainline, industry or yard, etc. I guess it makes sense to
only do 'non home road cars' but we could easily do several types
of freight car. But one of the great parts about it is that we
introduce a fair amount of randomness - from just using so many different
photos - that will eliminate biases of stuff like the photographer's
preference for a particular road, regional biases, etc. And I don't
think you have to struggle to document each and every car - if you
can't see the number relatively easily just go to the next one/pic.
We might even end up with enough information and entries on several
cars that somehow get repeated over the years that we can get an
idea of how widely cars ranged.

About all we'd have to do would be to coordinate so that we don't
duplicate each other's work. Someone would have to combine the work
into one large aggregate and someone would have to do the analysis
of the data once we have it.
Jim,

I think that there might be several problems with this approach but the biggest problem is that you need to evaluate the numbers for one place in one time period. You can't combine different places. If you do, you are creating an "average" and will end up, by default with the national average. Data from individual railroads could be analyzed for that road, but that gains nothing from combining the analyses into a common file.

Your database would absolutely tell us how far certain cars roamed, but the fact that cars roamed nationwide should not be a surprise (see the archives for lots of examples) <G>.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


Re: ADMIN: Re: Re: Freight car distribution

Greg Martin
 

Yes, Jack you are correct and those records for all railroads were forwarded to the car accounting offices. Most of the per diem was a paper exchange, but not all of it. Then of course there were the privately owned cars that were due their share as well.

Greg Martin

-----Original Message-----
From: Jack Burgess <jack@yosemitevalleyrr.com>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 9:41 am
Subject: RE: ADMIN: Re: [STMFC] Re: Freight car distribution






No question of the feasibility of this kind of report for a
small railroad. What was the total number of cars on line Jack ?
In the case of the YV, it would have been easy to keep such a
record just from the single daily interchange report that had all
cars coming on the railroad for that day.

In contrast, consider a railroad such as the PRR or ATSF with
thousands of cars coming through hundreds of interchanges every
day. Consider the fact that all of the paper with that
information flowed into the system car accountant's office with
time lags of days to weeks. Then imagine the massive clerical
task to do the count. No computers around to help. Not even
photocopiers !

It would have been a huge expense to get information that would
have been too old to use for any kind of management decision making.
But wouldn't that information be needed every day to pay for per diem
charges?

Jack Burgess
www.yosemitevalleyrr.com


The Freight Car Distribution Project

Jim Betz
 

If I'm way off base here please enlighten me as to why ...

There are just shy of 1500 members on this list. It would see to me that
if those of us who are interested took just a few hours each to inspect the
photos in our books and compile

RR, Car#, location, RR photo taken of/on,
date, book title, and author (page?)

info into some common spreadsheet type that it would not take too long
before we would have a very credible sample of freight car distribution
that would stand the various tests of variables such as year, season,
branch or mainline, industry or yard, etc. I guess it makes sense to
only do 'non home road cars' but we could easily do several types
of freight car. But one of the great parts about it is that we
introduce a fair amount of randomness - from just using so many different
photos - that will eliminate biases of stuff like the photographer's
preference for a particular road, regional biases, etc. And I don't
think you have to struggle to document each and every car - if you
can't see the number relatively easily just go to the next one/pic.
We might even end up with enough information and entries on several
cars that somehow get repeated over the years that we can get an
idea of how widely cars ranged.

About all we'd have to do would be to coordinate so that we don't
duplicate each other's work. Someone would have to combine the work
into one large aggregate and someone would have to do the analysis
of the data once we have it. The data entry could be facilitated
by a template that would fill in repeating stuff like title and author
but that is easy stuff. In fact it is all "easy stuff". The only
part that is hard is getting a large enough sample size - and if we
each did a little bit that problem is solved.
Having the book info will eliminate dups.

What do you think? Can't the existing photographic evidence do this
for us? Are -you- willing to sit down with your favorite book(s) about
'your' RR, an optivisor, a computer, and record some "boring" data?
I'm willing to coordinate, or do the GN, or the SP&S (I have relatively
complete collections of the books of both of those RRs).

Any one else out there?
- Jim in San Jose


Re: ORER inaccuracy

Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
 

A history of CN, Donald MacKay's "The People's Railway", mentions that
each CN car had a record book. It follows that CN's US lines (GTW,
DW&P, CV, GTNE) might have used this practice as well.

Was this industry practice?

Steve Lucas.


Speaking of the Soo Line, I know the Mechanical Department at one time
maintained a card file with a discrete card for every single car on
the roster, on which items that could be classed as "betterments" were
noted. I have seen some of the cards. Unfortunately, the file itself
and most the cards are long gone.

Dennis






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Freight car distribution YV per diem

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

Posted by: "Jack Burgess" jack@yosemitevalleyrr.com yvrrus But wouldn't that information be needed every day to pay for per diem
charges?
============ An interesting point Jack. Sorry I didn't think of that earlier.

But the answer to your question is a current no and a later yes. There was no daily need for the information. The per diem settlement was made on a monthly basis. I have a vague recollection that two months were allowed for the calculation and then a month to make payment, on a net basis. Not sure of those numbers but it was months.

Interchange reports were, IIRC, collected by the freight agent (I could be wrong on that) and forwarded by company mail to the car accounting deaprtment. The per diem payment between railroads A and B was based on the rper diem rate multplied by the difference of car days of cars owned by B on railroad A and A's car days on B.

There was no need for a count by day or by car type as the per diem was a uniform rate per car per day.




Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478

114481 - 114500 of 189789