Date   

Re: Freight car distribution YV per diem

Larry Jackman <Ljack70117@...>
 

Not really. The other roads would put their interchange on the track. The Un Pac would pull their cars off and put ours on the track.
I remember one night we had more cars than the interchange would hold for the Mop. So our engine put all he could and filled the track then left the rest of them coupled on and left them on our track. The next morning the Mop pulled the track and the extra cars came along. The Mop crew turn in time slips for switching Un Pac track and that day they got double pay. The next day there was a hot memo to our crew about it and it was never done again.
Thank you
Larry Jackman
ljack70117@comcast.net

On Aug 21, 2008, at 1:20 PM, Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton wrote:

Posted by: "Larry Jackman"

When I was on the Un Pac at Salina Ks the first thing the 10:30
yard engine did was grab the Cars for the Mop, RI and John Santa FE
and make a run to get then on the Interchanges BEFOR 11:59 PM. If he
did not get them there by 11:59 we paid another day of Per Diem.<

And I am sure the folks on the other side woudl try to find ways to
hold him outside the interchange until 12.01 to avoid the charges...

Aidrian

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ADMIN: Re: Re: Freight car distribution

laramielarry <ostresh@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Brock" <brockm@...> wrote:

Laramie Larry writes: (A friend of mine who has lived in Laramie
all his life - in particular the 1940s and 50s - describes these
cars as a "transfer run".)"

Meaning what? While I do not know for certain the location, the
train is a
4000 class [ Big Boy ] and a water tank is visible in 1953. The
locomotive
and date confines the train to the area between Green River and
Cheyenne. My
guess is that the location is Buford [ that vacation spa on the
east side of
Sherman Hill ]. I do not know the direction of travel.
Incidentally, the
first car is, I believe, a covered hopper followed by 36 reefers
followed by
the 36 SP box cars with a few others.> Mike Brock
I'm pretty certain the location is Speer and the train pulled by 4005
is westbound on track 3, which would have brought it through
Laramie. Incidentally, the water tower and some of the white
buildings are still there.

I'll ask my friend to define "transfer run" the next time I see him.

Best wishes,
Larry Ostresh
Laramie, Wyoming


ADMIN: Re: Re: Freight car distribution

Dennis Storzek
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Brock" <brockm@...> wrote:

Actually I said:

"The model that I prefer is a modified Nelson/Gilbert model which
states
that
RRs with "significant interchange" should have from 2 to 2.5 times the
national %."
I'm sure this is the key… I'm sure that after one applies a whole
bunch of "weighting factors" that account for proximity of other
roads, preferred interchange partners, preferred routes for "rollers",
etc, the little bit of traffic that's left will look quite similar to
the Gilbert / Nelson proportions. The problem is, those weighting
factors are going to be different for every stretch of railroad one
could possibly model. As examples, compare the Yosemite Valley, which
had almost no cars of its own, with the similar sized Greater Winnipeg
Water Works District Railway, which had, as far as I know, no reason
to handle a foreign car, since the line basically functioned as a
conduit to bring gravel from pits along the line into the city for use
by the local construction industry.

I would suspect that the closest to the "average" stretch of railroad
would be the NKP or Wabash; railroads smack dab in the middle of the
country that handled the largest proportion of overhead traffic vs.
loads originating and terminating on line. If one had good train
consists for those lines, perhaps that would be the place to start
trying to determine correction factors for proximity and connections
of the "average" railroad.

But why bother? Data for the average railroad is only going to be good
for someone who freelances, but even then you run into the problem
that if you model the Maumee, what the heck is the Wabash hauling if
all that traffic is on the Maumee? Even if you get what was actually
happening right, you then have to modify it again to take into account
the new player you added.

I personally think that time would be better spent studying the
prototype one is trying to model, identifying the consists of the
trains as best one can from consists, interchange statistics, photos,
movies, whatever is available, noting not only the overall car mix,
but specific instances of heavy concentrations, because those heavy
concentrations aren't random events, they MEAN something, and modeling
them helps to capture the feel of the prototype.

Dennis


Re: ORER inaccuracy

Walter M. Clark
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Rupert & Maureen" <gamlenz@...> wrote:
<snip>That is not to say that new groups of cars did not appear in print
prior to actually being built but, as stated by Malcolm Laughlin -

"..... It was mandatory for a car in revenue service to be
listed in the
ORER. In the absence of a listing, there would be cases in which a rate
using the car could not be determined...... Railroads listed a car
when it
was known that it might be put into service. ....."

In the case of CB&Q, I often found a new listing of a group of cars
without
any quantity being shown to indicate that they had actually been
built and,
in most cases, a quantity appeared by the next issue that I
collected (about
1 per calendar year) but sometimes the group of cars never materialised
under those numbers.<snip the rest of Rupert's comment>

Regards

Rupert Gamlen
Auckland NZ
<snip the rest of the message>
Rupert, the SP was another road that listed a group of cars before
arrival, an instance of listing a group of box cars that never did
appear. Tony's SP Freight Cars, Volume 4 Box Cars tells of a 500 car
group of 50 ft. 50 ton all steel pre-WWII cars, class B-50-22, number
series 81490-81989, that were bought in 1941 and built in October and
November 1941. Another 500 of the same car were ordered in the June
30, 1941 order, numbers 97520-98119, but never built, apparently due
to restrictions on use of strategic materials. SP kept those cars
listed in the ORER until October 1943, quoting Tony "presumably
reflecting a continuing desire by SP to receive the cars."

Time stopped in November 1941
Walter M. Clark
Pullman, Washington, USA


A logical look at Associated RR's Regarding Frt Car Distribution

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Before we leave this fascinating[?] look into frt car distributions, perhaps it's time for a brief and casual look at the logic with associated RR interchanges.

The Nelson/Gilbert theory says that the home road should be represented much higher than its % of the national fleet. Let's say 3 times the national number. The data that Tim Gilbert used includes that of 30 or so trains from the region Laramie-Green River WY in 1947. THe actual number was 87 UP box cars out of 777 total box cars or 11%. The UP national % in 1947 was 3.6% so 3 works pretty well. If you look at a RR map you'll notice that there's a junction at Granger, WY, where the UP goes to Pocatello, ID, and the Pacific Northwest. Other than that, UP tracks join SP at Ogden. There is a junction there with D&RGW as well. According to the theory, UP trains working east from Ogden should contain 11%-3.6%=7.4% more box cars than the national %. SP trains working west from Ogden should exhibit about the same. So...where do all the UP and SP box cars go? Where'd they come from? IOW, if trains containing about 3 times the national % of SP box cars are proceeding east on SP tracks west of Ogden I'm going to bet that they aren't going back down southwest to southern Cal on UP nor back west and up north on UP to the north Pacific. There are much shorter routes. I also doubt that many will transfer to the D&RGW. Westbound UP box cars might, indeed, travel on UP tracks south to S. Cal or to ID, OR and Wash. So, given the above, why would we doubt that SP box cars should show up on the UP WY trunk more than their national %?

There are similar locations where this might occur. For example, if the home road % rules, what about N&W and Southern between Knoxville, TN and Roanoke, N&W/NYC between points south of Columbus, OH and points north. For that matter, there must be many similar situations...such as GN/CB&Q or C&NW and the same for NP.

Mike Brock


Re: Per Diem and The D&H

armprem
 

Matt,You could also add the CV/GT/CN ,Rutland and the NJ at Rouses
Point.Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: "Matthew Forsyth" <mforsyth127@yahoo.com>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2008 11:46 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Per Diem and The D&H


Group,

I don't have any specifics on this, i.e. number of cars, amount of money
paid, but a classic example here in the northeast, of a railroad that did
their best to pay-out as little in per diem as possible was the Delaware and
Hudson (The D&H).

As a railroad, The D&H started life as an anthracite coal hauler, as did
many of the roads in the northeast (Reading, Lackawanna, Lehigh Valley,
etc.), and in the early years, had small-drivered locomotives that were
designed for drag-freight service. In 1940, the company got their first
order of 4-6-6-4 Challengers, and maintained one of the largest fleets of
that type in the U.S., second only to the UP.

Moving from drag-freight to fast-fast freight was a real bane for the
company. And shortly thereafter, the D&H billed themselves as "The Bridge
Line to New England and Canada". Their system was relatively short, with one
end of the line in Binghamton, NY and the other in Rouses Point, NY, on the
NY/Canadian border. They also had trackage rights into Montreal.

Handling a lot of bridge-line traffic meant that at any time, there were a
large number of foreign cars on the road, which could have resulted in a
relatively large per diem pay-out. Using their 4-6-6-4's the D&H was able to
successfully pick up EB interchange traffic in Binghamton, NY, from the
Lackawanna, Erie, and Lehigh Valley, and could then forward that traffic,
over the system in less than 24 hours, in most cases. Handing off cars to
the New York Central and Boston and Albany @ Albany, the Boston and Main @
Mechanicville, NY, the Rutland @ Rutland, VT, and the Canadian Pacific @
Rouses Point, NY. The entire process could also be repeated in the WB
direction, which got the bulk of foreign cars off the road before the stroke
of midnight. That allowed them to pay-out as little per diem as possible.

Matt Forsyth

Modeling Elmira, NY
in "O" Scale in 1951







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Re: The compilation of a 1956 UP Frt Conductor's Book

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Jason Hill writes:

"It would really help in the train symbols were included in this list of data, not just the could of how many of who's cars went by a given point."

You're certainly right about that. Regretfully, UP or conductor Fraley were determined to keep the train symbol a secret. Even the Dispatcher's record of train movements does not seem to include the train symbols. The conductor's book includes the engine # but not the symbol.

"An example of your high numbers of SP cars could be a result of a "tidepool" order or a block of loads going east... you haven't told us which way the cars were moving."

The train with 36 SP box cars is on the video Big Boy Collection. There is no information on the direction. The other trains with unusually high numbers of SP box cars...one with 31 and one with 27 if I recall correctly...were headed east with lumber loads.

Mike Brock


Re: All-time freight car roster (Was Re: ORER inaccuracy)

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Gene Green wrote:
In the course of looking for other material in a warehouse in Chicago I came across two ledger books, one was for the M&StL, the other the CGW. The M&StL book was entitled "Record of M.& St. L. and Iowa Central Equipment on Hand August 1, 1888 and Acquired Subsequent Thereto." The CGW book also started at August 1, 1888.
Has anyone found something similar for any other railroads?
For SP Pacific Lines, the 1891 renumbering book (a printed book) includes a superb snapshot of the roster at the time, including MANY cars which were 25 years old. It's at CSRM.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: ADMIN: Re: Re: Freight car distribution

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Laramie Larry writes:

"Or maybe not: It turns out that the probability of 36 or more cars
is so low that Excel cannot calculate it. For example a 90 boxcar
train with a "mere" 20 or more SP boxcars would occur only once in
every 19.5 billion trains. Conclusion: This train could not have
occurred by chance alone. (A friend of mine who has lived in Laramie
all his life - in particular the 1940s and 50s - describes these cars
as a "transfer run".)"

Meaning what? While I do not know for certain the location, the train is a 4000 class [ Big Boy ] and a water tank is visible in 1953. The locomotive and date confines the train to the area between Green River and Cheyenne. My guess is that the location is Buford [ that vacation spa on the east side of Sherman Hill ]. I do not know the direction of travel. Incidentally, the first car is, I believe, a covered hopper followed by 36 reefers followed by the 36 SP box cars with a few others.

"Suppose that the 4% number is wrong; Tim Gilbert's data lists 4.9% SP-
Pac ownership in 1956".

Except that in 1953 the number should be 4.35% for 1953...assuming halfway between 52's 4.2% and '54's 4.5%.

"Let's be generous and make it 5%. Then a 90
car train would have 20 or more SP boxcars once in every 356 million
trains. (Tim's data are at "4060totalboxcarsUSownership.xls" in the
files section of this list.)

Rather than using the proportion of the national fleet, how about
giving more "weight" to SP cars on the UP because of the "connection"
between the two railroads, or because of nearness or whatever? Let's
say we "weight" the SP cars by a factor of two (Mike Brock suggests a
weight of 1.5)."

Actually I said:

"The model that I prefer is a modified Nelson/Gilbert model which states that
RRs with "significant interchange" should have from 2 to 2.5 times the
national %."

I may have said 1.5 at some point...

"To apply the desired weight, multiply it by the
national proportion: e.g., 2 * 5% = 10%. Using a "probability of
success on each trial" of 10% and a 90 boxcar train we find that
Excel still cannot calculate it because the probability is too low (a
train with "only" 30 or more SP boxcars would occur once every 3
billion trains). Conclusion: No reasonable weighting will reproduce
the train actually observed - we must reject the null hypothesis.
That is, the observed train composition is not the result of chance
alone."

My feeling as well. And, I notice the same thing with trains that are easier to identify...lumber laden eastbounds with 31 SP box cars for example.

Mike Brock


Re: Freight car distribution YV per diem

Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton <smokeandsteam@...>
 

Posted by: "Larry Jackman"

When I was on the Un Pac at Salina Ks the first thing the 10:30
yard engine did was grab the Cars for the Mop, RI and John Santa FE
and make a run to get then on the Interchanges BEFOR 11:59 PM. If he
did not get them there by 11:59 we paid another day of Per Diem.<

And I am sure the folks on the other side woudl try to find ways to
hold him outside the interchange until 12.01 to avoid the charges...

Aidrian


Re: The compilation of a 1956 UP Frt Conductor's Book

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Tim O'Connor writes:

"Mike Brock wrote

PRR: 48
NYC: 45
SP: 43
Milw: 22
Gee, Mike, that's looks like 4 of the top 5 box car
owning railroads are in the... top 5 of your counts
of box cars of non-home road cars."

Yep. Let the cards fall as they may.

"I'd feel better if you could compile the totals for
at least 100 freight trains. Law of averages and all
that kinda stuff..."

I would too. Got any data?

Mike Brock


Re: Sunshine 50' Milwaukee autobox car kits.

Bill Darnaby
 

Hi Denny,

I turned my car over and there are 4 evenly spaced crossbearers....assuming I did it correctly.

Bill Darnaby

My preliminary conclusion is that the 50' cars did not have these
features (cross bearer caps and cross ties), and the directions simply
do not make this distinction.

Am I correct?


Denny S. Anspach MD
Okoboji, IA






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All-time freight car roster (Was Re: ORER inaccuracy)

Gene Green <bierglaeser@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Rupert & Maureen" <gamlenz@...> wrote:
<snip>
I would offer
the following comments based on my experience in creating an all-time
freight car roster for the CB&Q, ... <snip>
In the course of looking for other material in a warehouse in Chicago I
came across two ledger books, one was for the M&StL, the other the
CGW. The M&StL book was entitled "Record of M.& St. L. and Iowa
Central Equipment on Hand August 1, 1888 and Acquired Subsequent
Thereto." The CGW book also started at August 1, 1888.

The M&StL book contained quite a bit more information than the CGW
book - more columns and more notes - and was updated into 1926.

Has anyone found something similar for any other railroads?

Gene Green
Out in the west Texas town of El Paso


Re: Per Diem and The D&H

mforsyth127
 

Group,
 
I don't have any specifics on this, i.e. number of cars, amount of money paid, but a classic example here in the northeast, of a railroad that did their best to pay-out as little in per diem as possible was the Delaware and Hudson (The D&H).
 
As a railroad, The D&H started life as an anthracite coal hauler, as did many of the roads in the northeast (Reading, Lackawanna, Lehigh Valley, etc.), and in the early years, had small-drivered locomotives that were designed for drag-freight service. In 1940, the company got their first order of 4-6-6-4 Challengers, and maintained one of the largest fleets of that type in the U.S., second only to the UP.
 
Moving from drag-freight to fast-fast freight was a real bane for the company. And shortly thereafter, the D&H billed themselves as "The Bridge Line to New England and Canada". Their system was relatively short, with one end of the line in Binghamton, NY and the other in Rouses Point, NY, on the NY/Canadian border. They also had trackage rights into Montreal.
 
Handling a lot of bridge-line traffic meant that at any time, there were a large number of foreign cars on the road, which could have resulted in a relatively large per diem pay-out. Using their 4-6-6-4's the D&H was able to successfully pick up EB interchange traffic in Binghamton, NY, from the Lackawanna, Erie, and Lehigh Valley, and could then forward that traffic, over the system in less than 24 hours, in most cases. Handing off cars to the New York Central and Boston and Albany @ Albany, the Boston and Main @ Mechanicville, NY, the Rutland @ Rutland, VT, and the Canadian Pacific @ Rouses Point, NY.  The entire process could also be repeated in the WB direction, which got the bulk of foreign cars off the road before the stroke of midnight. That allowed them to pay-out as little per diem as possible.
 
Matt Forsyth
 
Modeling Elmira, NY
in "O" Scale in 1951




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


ADMIN Please Unsubscribe me from this list

al.kresse <water.kresse@...>
 

Too much on too little


Re: ADMIN: Re: Re: Freight car distribution

Tim O'Connor
 

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "laramielarry" <ostresh@uwyo.edu>

Subsequently, I have refined the simulation so as to record the
entire distribution of cars for each road during a simulation of
100,000 car lists. [ snip snip ]
Larry, I think there is a certain population on this mailing list
that finds your analysis worthwhile and interesting, and there
also is a population that hates it or dismisses it or... whatever.

Myself, I think there are TWO issues for model railroads (1)
the assignment (waybilling) of cars and (2) the makeup of
trains.

For a 1-train a day model RR like Jack's YV, train makeup isn't
an issue. Each train is a perfect reflection of the distribution of
car assignments.

For a 35-train a day model RR like Mike's, individual trains can
be very different from one another, reflecting different origins,
destinations, connections, schedules, etc.

Tim O'Connor


ADMIN: Re: Re: Freight car distribution

laramielarry <ostresh@...>
 

Hi Folks

A week or so ago I posted a message about a "random train" Excel
spreadsheet I had created, and gave three examples of its output
(message #75066). Briefly, the spreadsheet generates a list of 40
boxcars chosen at random from a universe of cars which approximates
the U.S. boxcar fleet ownership in 1949. Experienced Excel users can
adapt the spreadsheet to create random trains of any desired length
using whatever universe they would like.

In message #75229 I described how I automated the spreadsheet by
running it 100,000 times. That is, it created 100,000 randomly
generated car lists, with 40 cars per list. The main purpose of this
simulation was to test whether the random train spreadsheet was
operating correctly; if it was, then over the long run, the average
proportions of the randomly generated cars should tend to the
proportions of the universe (they did). The simulation also recorded
the maximum number of cars generated during any of the 100,000
iterations (for each road). For example, the number of NYC cars in
the three lists in message #75066 was 4, 1 and 6. During the
simulation, there was at least one car list with 14 NYC cars. (In a
list of 40 cars that is proportional to 1949 national averages, one
should expect 4 from the NYC.)

Subsequently, I have refined the simulation so as to record the
entire distribution of cars for each road during a simulation of
100,000 car lists. For example, the national proportion of New Haven
boxcars was less than 1% in 1949; most random trains of 40 cars would
not have any NH cars, but sometimes there will be one or more. The
next list shows the frequency distribution of 0, 1, 2, … NH cars
generated by the simulation of 100,000 car lists (71,508 car lists
had 0 NH cars; 24,068 had 1 NH car, etc.):

0___71,508
1___24,068
2___3,963
3___421
4___37
5___3
These numbers can be converted to probabilities by dividing by
100,000. Thus the probability of a car list with 40 cars and none
from the NH is .715, 1 car = .241, 2 cars = .040, etc.

After examining the results of this simulation, it seemed to me that
the process of random car selection was much like the ball and urn
models I had learned about in my statistics classes umpteen years
ago: An urn has some red and white balls of a known proportion.
Reach in and grab a ball; if red, then record it as a "success", and
if white as a "failure"; replace the ball then repeat the process for
a certain number of times, say 40. What is the probability of 0
successes? Exactly 1 success? Exactly 2, 3, … ? These
probabilities are given by the binomial distribution. The next list
shows the binomial distribution for 0, 1, 2, … (multiplied by
100,000) for 40 trials and a "probability of success on each
trial".0084 = .84% (this is the national proportion of NH boxcars in
1949 that I used for my simulation).
0___71,483
1___24,098
2___3,960
3___423
4___33
5___2

Note the close correspondence of the simulation and the binomial
distributions in the two lists. This and the examination of other
simulation results convinced me that my process of random car
selection could be effectively modeled by the binomial distribution
(I also compared the Poisson distribution). If anyone would like a
copy of my simulation results, contact me off list.

To use the binomial distribution, all you need to specify is the
number of trials (read boxcars in a train) and the probability of
success on each trial (read proportion of cars of a particular
ownership or type). The proportions of cars can be national,
regional, or any other proportion you wish to use. You can make the
calculations with the aid of tables, programs such as Excel, or any
of several on-line calculators.

I should point out a key difference between my simulation model and
the real world: Just like cards, a train "has memory". This means
that once a car is removed from the population and placed in the
train, it cannot be placed again in the same train. Once the first
NH car is chosen with a probability of success on each trial of
6,012 / 719,349 (NH boxcars divided by national boxcars, 1949) the
probability of success on each trial for the next one changes to
6,011 / 719,348. This is the difference between sampling with
replacement (my simulation) and sampling without replacement (real
world). The binomial distribution also assumes sampling with
replacement.

One use for the binomial distribution is to test real world examples
for randomness. Again reaching back many years to my statistics
classes, I am reminded of the "null hypothesis": A researcher
discovers something interesting and suspects it is not merely
random. The null hypothesis is that it IS random, while the
alternative hypothesis is that it is not. The null hypothesis is
assumed to be true unless the researcher is 95% or 99% confident that
it is false (these are typical confidence levels).

The UP train with the large number of SP boxcars is an example. My
understanding is that this train had some 90 boxcars, 36 of which
were SP. In order to calculate the binomial distribution, we need to
know the number of "trials" (i.e., cars in the train, say 90) and
the "probability of success on each trial" (i.e., the proportion of
SP cars in the national fleet, say 4% = .04). From this you can find
the probability of a train with exactly 0, 1, 2, …, 36, … SP cars.

Or maybe not: It turns out that the probability of 36 or more cars
is so low that Excel cannot calculate it. For example a 90 boxcar
train with a "mere" 20 or more SP boxcars would occur only once in
every 19.5 billion trains. Conclusion: This train could not have
occurred by chance alone. (A friend of mine who has lived in Laramie
all his life – in particular the 1940s and 50s – describes these cars
as a "transfer run".)

Suppose that the 4% number is wrong; Tim Gilbert's data lists 4.9% SP-
Pac ownership in 1956. Let's be generous and make it 5%. Then a 90
car train would have 20 or more SP boxcars once in every 356 million
trains. (Tim's data are at "4060totalboxcarsUSownership.xls" in the
files section of this list.)

Rather than using the proportion of the national fleet, how about
giving more "weight" to SP cars on the UP because of the "connection"
between the two railroads, or because of nearness or whatever? Let's
say we "weight" the SP cars by a factor of two (Mike Brock suggests a
weight of 1.5). To apply the desired weight, multiply it by the
national proportion: e.g., 2 * 5% = 10%. Using a "probability of
success on each trial" of 10% and a 90 boxcar train we find that
Excel still cannot calculate it because the probability is too low (a
train with "only" 30 or more SP boxcars would occur once every 3
billion trains). Conclusion: No reasonable weighting will reproduce
the train actually observed – we must reject the null hypothesis.
That is, the observed train composition is not the result of chance
alone.

I suspect that if we begin applying the binomial distribution to real
world data we will find many cases in which we should reject the null
hypothesis of random car assignment. This does not imply that the
random assignment model should be ignored, of course; it simply means
that other factors (real world consists, photos, personal choice,
etc.) should also be considered. For example, we may find cases such
as transfer runs or large shippers where it makes sense to treat
blocks of cars as a unit and to assign these blocks, rather than the
individual cars, to trains.

Best wishes,
Larry Ostresh
Laramie, Wyoming


Re: Per Diem

Ed Schleyer
 

One of the smallest railroads paid the MOST per diem, The Long Island Rail Road was a dead end railroad that owned NO interchangable cars.

Ed Schleyer

Mike Calvert wrote:


If the freight cars are distributed around the railroads according the The
Theory, and used according to The Regulations, the amount of Per Diem
inter-railroad transfers should be small, as most of the Per Diem charges
(debits) incurred should be balanced by Per Diem credits.
I assume that this was the objective of the Regulations.

How much net Per Diem was actually paid in transfers between railroads? Was
it a lot, or a little? Did some railroads pay much more than others?

Mike Calvert


Re: ORER inaccuracy

Rupert & Maureen <gamlenz@...>
 

Rob

Going back to your original question on using ORER's, and taking into account the responses to date, I suggest that the "accuracy" (or usability) of the ORER data varied depending on the railroad concerned. I would offer the following comments based on my experience in creating an all-time freight car roster for the CB&Q, which relied greatly on the ORER data (being on the other side of the Pacific creates research difficulties!) to track the rise and fall of the various car groups.

I thought that the first response, from Anthony Thompson, summed up my research experience quite well -

"............Each month there was a company-wide tally of all these categories, in effect making an "active" list for PFE for that month. The corresponding issues of the ORER (one month later) very accurately track this............."



The Q also seemed to keep up to date with what was happening with its fleet. That is not to say that new groups of cars did not appear in print prior to actually being built but, as stated by Malcolm Laughlin -

"..... It was mandatory for a car in revenue service to be listed in the ORER. In the absence of a listing, there would be cases in which a rate using the car could not be determined...... Railroads listed a car when it was known that it might be put into service. ....."

In the case of CB&Q, I often found a new listing of a group of cars without any quantity being shown to indicate that they had actually been built and, in most cases, a quantity appeared by the next issue that I collected (about 1 per calendar year) but sometimes the group of cars never materialised under those numbers. From the company's perspective, it was better to list a car in advance than in arrears.

Where car number groups for similar cars were amalgamated on paper as their numbers thinned out, I often tracked the decrease in the number of cars of a specific group to estimate when the last cars of that group probably left the roster. (In the absence of specific data, an estimate is better than nothing)

I would therefore suggest that you plot on a graph the decline in numbers of a group (if the graph line is flat, it would suggest that they are out of service) and allow for a time lag between old cars being removed from the roster and the record of it being printed. Similarly, in the absence of specific data, allow for a time lag between new groups appearing in the ORER and actually being available for service.

Regards

Rupert Gamlen
Auckland NZ

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rob Kirkham" <rdkirkham@live.ca>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2008 7:57 AM
Subject: [STMFC] ORER inaccuracy


Given the assertion (and I doubt any will argue it) that the ORER lists
would include equipment that was not really available for service - whether
retired or in storage or .... etc - is there a realistic research approach
one could adopt to try to identify what parts of a given railway's fleet
were no longer in service?

Rob Kirkham


Re: The compilation of a 1956 UP Frt Conductor's Book

Jason Hill
 

It would really help in the train symbols were included in this list of data, not just the could of how many of who's cars went by a given point. From my experience, the train symbol will have MUCH more to do with what is in the train than just what division or territory you are looking at.
The railroads had guidelines as to what traffic went in what symbols. Symbol A-B-C might have a very different consist than D-E-F, let alone the A-C-D on a day when the Chief and operating forces decided to combine symbols.
An example of your high numbers of SP cars could be a result of a "tidepool" order or a block of loads going east... you haven't told us which way the cars were moving.
As amusing as this thread is... I'm going back to building that fleet of 1000 XMs... let alone all the other typical skewing percentage types of cars that we get to see that the La Mesa club needs.

Jason Hill
Modeling Tehachapi in 1952
800 cars in the pool and still building...
drip...drip...drip...

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