Date   

Re: ORER discrepancy

George Hollwedel
 

Is "uo" US? Is "cay" car?

Prototype N Scale Models (TM)
by George Hollwedel
310 Loma Verde St
Buda, TX 78610-9785
512-796-6883
www.micro-trains.com/sr-0806-hollwedelATSF.php
www.micro-trains.com/hollwedel.php
www.imrcmodels.com/n/sr/html/GHollATSFExpressN.htm

-------------------
The impetus was to have accuracy only on the uo side. It
was necessary that any cay that might handle revenue traffic
be listed, but not that every car listed be in service, or
even exist.



Malcolm Laughlin, Editor
617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478




------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



Re: What HO truck(s) do we STMFC'ers want?

Brian Leppert <b.leppert@...>
 

Andy and Jason,

The Atlas truck is a very poor representation of the National C-1 70-
ton truck. If you have Tony's SP Freight Cars, vol.1, Gondolas and
Stock Cars, see page 218 for what the prototype really looks like.

Brian Leppert
Tahoe Model Works
Carson City, NV

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Andy Sperandeo" <asperandeo@...>
wrote:

Brian, I think you're on to something with the 70-ton trucks. I
just built a Sunshine NYC
gondola kit that needed 70-ton trucks with a 3-1-3 spring package.
I used a pair of Atlas
trucks from a Hart convertible ballast car, adding semi-scale
wheels and Kadee brake shoes.
However, Atlas doesn't list these as separate parts and they aren't
as nice as your trucks
anyway.

Good luck,

Andy


The Keystone Modeler - 2008

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

And now, a break from the Freight Car Distribution Debate...

I've been extremely remiss about posting articles of interest in The
Keystone Modeler as it comes out - for those of you who haven't
checked out the PRRT&HS website lately, here are STMFC articles of
interest that have appeared so far this year:

August 2008
"Walthers N6B, Corrected and Backdated" by Ed Walters
"Modeling the Pennsylvania Railroad's Box Car Fleet Part 8 - The
Pennsy's X26C Class - The Sunshine Resin Kit" by Elden Gatwood
"Building the TM8 (AC&F Type11) Tank Car" by Bruce F. Smith

July 2008
"More 2008 Annual Meeting Model Photos" by Elden Gatwood
"PRRPro Class X31 Preliminary Feature" by Al Buchan

June 2008
"[Modeling the Pennsylvania Railroad's Box Car Fleet Part 7 - ]
Scratchbuilding a PRR Class XI Furniture Car" by David J. Vinci
"2008 Annual Meeting Contest Winners" by Elden Gatwood

May 2008
"Modeling the Pennsylvania Railroad's Box Car Fleet Part 6 – Class
X51 Prototype Overview" by Ben Hom
"Modeling the Pennsylvania Railroad's Box Car Fleet Part 6A -
Modeling HO scale PRR Class X51 Boxcars" by Tom Haag

April 2008
"Modeling the Pennsylvania Railroad's Gondola Fleet Part 18-2 – The
G28 Class Gondola Variants" by Jack Consoli
"National Car Company 37' Meat Refrigerator Car - A kitbash of the
Accurail wood reefer" by Bruce F. Smith

Winter 2008 Special Issue:
"The Wood Sheathed Cars of the FGEX/WFEX/BREX Freight Refrigerator
Fleet: 1940-1953" by Bill Welch

March 2008
"Product Review HO-scale InterMountain Fruit Growers Express 40-foot
Wood-Sheathed Refrigerator Car" by Bill Welch

February 2008
"Modeling PRR N5C 477929" by David Skirmont
"Modeling PRR Class F30A Flat Car 474489" by Jack Burgess

January 2008
"Here's What I'm Modeling - HO-Scale PRR Freight Cars" by John Golden

Each of these issues can be downloaded free of charge at
http://www.prrths.com/Keystone%20Modeler/Keystone_Modeler.htm

CDs of past issues (only the past 12 months' issues are on the
website) are available; ordering information is on the last page of
any issue of TKM.


Ben Hom


Re: RAILMODEL JOURNAL

Mont Switzer <mhts_switzerm@...>
 

Charlie,
 
See next message.
 
Mont

--- On Fri, 8/22/08, Charlie Vlk <cvlk@comcast.net> wrote:

From: Charlie Vlk <cvlk@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [STMFC] RAILMODEL JOURNAL
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, August 22, 2008, 12:14 PM






Mont-

What is RAILMODEL?

Not sure I have seen that magazine....

....maybe Railroad Model Craftsman???

Charlie Vlk

----- Original Message -----
From: Mont Switzer
To: STMFC@yahoogroups. com
Sent: Friday, August 22, 2008 9:39 AM
Subject: [STMFC] RAILMODEL JOURNAL

Just received a letter advising that my unfulfilled RMJ subescription has been transferred to RAILMDOEL

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg. com
Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.6/1627 - Release Date: 8/22/2008 6:48 AM


Re: RAILMODEL JOURNAL

Mont Switzer <mhts_switzerm@...>
 

Ben,
 
See next message.
 
Mont

--- On Fri, 8/22/08, benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

From: benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: [STMFC] Re: RAILMODEL JOURNAL
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, August 22, 2008, 10:47 AM






Mont Switzer wrote:
"Just received a letter advising that my unfulfilled RMJ subescription
has been transferred to RAILMDOEL"

??????

Ben Hom


















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: FW: Northwest Short Line going out of business?

Gene Green <bierglaeser@...>
 

I phoned in an order to NWSL last week. Upon inquiry I learned that
NWSL has been sold and that there is an ongoing "transition."
Gene Green


Re: What HO truck(s) do we STMFC'ers want?

John Hile <john66h@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Leppert" <b.leppert@...> wrote:

I think any properly rendered 70-ton truck in HO will look distinctly
different from 50-ton trucks, especially with that wider bolster,
and are
certainly needed.




Brian,

Thanks for all of the great info. You summarized my thoughts on the
70-ton trucks quite well - available 50-ton trucks just don't quite
capture the feel of the longer wheelbase, wider bolster, spring
spacing, and spring arrangements of the 70-ton versions - at least not
to me.


Thanks Again,

John Hile
Blacksburg, VA


Re: Per Diem

Richard Brennan <brennan8@...>
 

At 11:24 AM 8/22/2008, timboconnor@comcast.net wrote:
Per diem in the 1950's was the same for all box cars, and was quite
low -- IIRC less than $3 a day.
In the Simmons-Boardman book "Freight Cars
Rolling" by Lawrence Sagle ©1960, an entire
chapter is devoted to the per diem issue... (Chapter 3, p61-70)

The per diem rate is described as having
started-out at $0.20 per day... and was at $2.88 per day by 1960.
Failure to report added another 15¢ to 60¢ per day depending on delay.

For non- per diem cars, mileage rates of from
0.6¢ to 4¢ per mile were paid, based on car type,
with tanks and reefers at the high end of the scale.

As far as reporting, Sagle describes four report
types, all based on the car waybills:
- Wheel Report - per train
- Interchange Report - cars exchanged between RRs
- Junction Report - foreign cars delivered to
another RR (i.e. passing the per diem buck...)
- Passing Report - ad hoc tracking of car movements

Return loading rules are described as: (in order)
- Return to home road (loaded or empty)
- Loaded in the direction of the home road
- loaded via any route to a destination within,
or in the direction of, the "home district"

An AAR map of the 23 districts from District 1
(WA-OR-ID) to District 23 (Eastern Canada) is
provided, along with several typical forms.

...and I always wondered why railroads had those huge buildings full of clerks!


--------------------
Richard Brennan - San Leandro CA
--------------------


Re: What HO truck(s) do we STMFC'ers want?

Frederick Freitas <prrinvt@...>
 

Brian,
 
         You make them, we WILL buy them! Next question???
 
Fred Freitas

--- On Fri, 8/22/08, Brian Leppert <b.leppert@att.net> wrote:

From: Brian Leppert <b.leppert@att.net>
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: What HO truck(s) do we STMFC'ers want?
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, August 22, 2008, 2:15 PM






I guess I should respond to the 70-ton truck requests. First of all some
typical features of these trucks:

Wheel base--5'-8" (versus 5'-6" for 40/50-ton trucks)

Journal boxes--6X11' size, minimum 9 5/8" outside width (versus 9" for
50-ton, 5 1/2 X 10" journal)

Bolster width--17" (versus 13" for 40/50-ton trucks) This scales out to
.046" difference in HO.

Spring groups, per sideframe--Conventi onal trucks ( cast steel, U-section
with integral journal boxes and spring planks, without the double-truss
feature) five springs in a 2-1-2 pattern
Increased Spring Capacity trucks (popular in the
second half of the 1920s into the early 1930s) Dalman, 7 springs in a 2-3-2
pattern and Symington, 7 springs in a 3-1-3 pattern. Examples of Symington
trucks can be seen in Hendrickson' s truck article in RPC #4, photos #15 and
17. The 50-ton version had 6 springs in a 2-1-1-2 pattern. And by the
way, the 50-ton photo has Symington's version of lateral motion device, not
Barber's.
Double Truss trucks (introduced in 1933, I think) 7
springs, in a 3-1-3 pattern.
ASF A-3 Ride Control 7 Springs, in a 2-3-2 pattern

I think any properly rendered 70-ton truck in HO will look distinctly
different from 50-ton trucks, especially with that wider bolster, and are
certainly needed. I would like to do both the A-3 and double truss
versions, and I feel most of the double truss trucks had spring
planks--unless someone can convince me otherwise.

Richard has once again commented about many HO trucks having oversize
journals. I did some measuring this morning and came up with the following.

For comparison, here's the outside width of prototype journal boxes and HO
equivalents:

40-ton 8 1/2" .098"
50-ton 9" .103"
70-ton 9 5/8" .111"

MDC bettendorf .103"
Kadee bettendorf .105"
Atlas bettendorf .103"
Tichy bettendorf .075"
Accurail bettendorf .100"
TrueLine Trains bettendorf .112"
P2K Spring Plankless .125"
P2K National Type B .105"
Branchline S-2 .095"
InterMountain ASF .105"
Kato ASF A-3 .109"
TMW Dalman .104"
TMW Buckeye ARA .104"

All dimensions were measured at front of box..

I'm sticking my neck out on all of this, so would be open to any
disagreements

Brian Leppert
Tahoe Model Works
Carson City, NV

----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Hendrickson" <rhendrickson@ opendoor. com>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups. com>
Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2008 4:45 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: What HO truck(s) do we STMFC'ers want?

My strong preference would be for those on the Erie gon. The trucks
on the flat car were self-aligning spring-plankless, and we have
several of those in HO scale already (granted, they're supposed to be
fifty ton trucks, but on several of them the journal boxes are
sufficiently oversize that they're closer in appearance to 70 ton
trucks anyway). The trucks on the Lackawanna covered hopper were ASF
A-3s, and we have already have relatively good A-3s in HO; again,
they're supposed to be fifty ton trucks, but the difference in
journal box size isn't very obvious. The trucks on the Erie gondola
were 70 ton self-aligning spring-plankless double truss with six
springs on each side, three across facing outward, and that's a
rather common design which we've never had in HO. Brian?

Richard Hendrickson














[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: What HO truck(s) do we STMFC'ers want?

Andy Sperandeo <asperandeo@...>
 

Brian, I think you're on to something with the 70-ton trucks. I just built a Sunshine NYC
gondola kit that needed 70-ton trucks with a 3-1-3 spring package. I used a pair of Atlas
trucks from a Hart convertible ballast car, adding semi-scale wheels and Kadee brake shoes.
However, Atlas doesn't list these as separate parts and they aren't as nice as your trucks
anyway.

Good luck,

Andy


Re: Per Diem

Tim O'Connor
 

Steve

Per diem in the 1950's was the same for all box cars, and was quite
low -- IIRC less than $3 a day. Unless the NYSW was a parking lot for
offline cars, I doubt they suffered from per diem overhead. After all, if
they could move a car across the system in 24 hours, they might avoid
having to pay any per diem at all.

Tim

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Steve Lucas" <stevelucas3@yahoo.ca>
The Jan., 1953 ORER shows the NYO&W as having 146 cars suitable for
interchange. For an over 400-mile Class One pike, this road must
have had substantial per diem costs. No wonder that they went under
in 1957.

Steve Lucas.


Re: What HO truck(s) do we STMFC'ers want?

Brian Leppert <b.leppert@...>
 

I guess I should respond to the 70-ton truck requests. First of all some typical features of these trucks:

Wheel base--5'-8" (versus 5'-6" for 40/50-ton trucks)

Journal boxes--6X11' size, minimum 9 5/8" outside width (versus 9" for 50-ton, 5 1/2 X 10" journal)

Bolster width--17" (versus 13" for 40/50-ton trucks) This scales out to .046" difference in HO.

Spring groups, per sideframe--Conventional trucks ( cast steel, U-section with integral journal boxes and spring planks, without the double-truss feature) five springs in a 2-1-2 pattern
Increased Spring Capacity trucks (popular in the second half of the 1920s into the early 1930s) Dalman, 7 springs in a 2-3-2 pattern and Symington, 7 springs in a 3-1-3 pattern. Examples of Symington trucks can be seen in Hendrickson's truck article in RPC #4, photos #15 and 17. The 50-ton version had 6 springs in a 2-1-1-2 pattern. And by the way, the 50-ton photo has Symington's version of lateral motion device, not Barber's.
Double Truss trucks (introduced in 1933, I think) 7 springs, in a 3-1-3 pattern.
ASF A-3 Ride Control 7 Springs, in a 2-3-2 pattern

I think any properly rendered 70-ton truck in HO will look distinctly different from 50-ton trucks, especially with that wider bolster, and are certainly needed. I would like to do both the A-3 and double truss versions, and I feel most of the double truss trucks had spring planks--unless someone can convince me otherwise.

Richard has once again commented about many HO trucks having oversize journals. I did some measuring this morning and came up with the following.

For comparison, here's the outside width of prototype journal boxes and HO equivalents:

40-ton 8 1/2" .098"
50-ton 9" .103"
70-ton 9 5/8" .111"

MDC bettendorf .103"
Kadee bettendorf .105"
Atlas bettendorf .103"
Tichy bettendorf .075"
Accurail bettendorf .100"
TrueLine Trains bettendorf .112"
P2K Spring Plankless .125"
P2K National Type B .105"
Branchline S-2 .095"
InterMountain ASF .105"
Kato ASF A-3 .109"
TMW Dalman .104"
TMW Buckeye ARA .104"

All dimensions were measured at front of box..

I'm sticking my neck out on all of this, so would be open to any disagreements

Brian Leppert
Tahoe Model Works
Carson City, NV

----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Hendrickson" <rhendrickson@opendoor.com>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2008 4:45 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: What HO truck(s) do we STMFC'ers want?





My strong preference would be for those on the Erie gon. The trucks
on the flat car were self-aligning spring-plankless, and we have
several of those in HO scale already (granted, they're supposed to be
fifty ton trucks, but on several of them the journal boxes are
sufficiently oversize that they're closer in appearance to 70 ton
trucks anyway). The trucks on the Lackawanna covered hopper were ASF
A-3s, and we have already have relatively good A-3s in HO; again,
they're supposed to be fifty ton trucks, but the difference in
journal box size isn't very obvious. The trucks on the Erie gondola
were 70 ton self-aligning spring-plankless double truss with six
springs on each side, three across facing outward, and that's a
rather common design which we've never had in HO. Brian?

Richard Hendrickson


For Sale - HO Red Caboose, Sunshine, and PSC

parkcitybranch <parkcitybranch@...>
 

I have a few items for sale including some 1937 Red Caboose Union
Pacific Boxcars, a few different Red Caboose flatcars, a few PRR X-29
boxcars by Red Caboose, a brass PSC 52' PFE Reefer, and a Sunshine
Models X-31A with no decals. E-mail off-list for details and pricing.
Thanks.

Jason Sanford


Re: RAILMODEL JOURNAL

Charlie Vlk
 

Mont-

What is RAILMODEL?

Not sure I have seen that magazine....

....maybe Railroad Model Craftsman???

Charlie Vlk

----- Original Message -----
From: Mont Switzer
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, August 22, 2008 9:39 AM
Subject: [STMFC] RAILMODEL JOURNAL


Just received a letter advising that my unfulfilled RMJ subescription has been transferred to RAILMDOEL






No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.6/1627 - Release Date: 8/22/2008 6:48 AM


Re: Per Diem

Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
 

The Jan., 1953 ORER shows the NYO&W as having 146 cars suitable for
interchange. For an over 400-mile Class One pike, this road must
have had substantial per diem costs. No wonder that they went under
in 1957.

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, tgregmrtn@... wrote:


_ch00ch00@..._ (mailto:ch00ch00@...) writes:




One of the smallest railroads paid the MOST per diem, The Long
Island
Rail Road was a dead end railroad that owned NO interchangeable
cars.

Ed Schleyer

That's not entirely true the Long Island did own a group of hoppers
(300 in
series 5000 to 5299) in class GLD. Certanly not many in numbers
and they did
get transferred to the PRR, but nonetheless they did have revenue
cars.
Greg Martin


.









**************It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find
your travel
deal here.
(http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: RAILMODEL JOURNAL

gnryfan
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Mont Switzer <mhts_switzerm@...> wrote:

Just received notification form RMJ that my unfulfilled subscription
has been"sold" to RAILROAD MODEL CRAFTSMAN.  In my case this will
result in an extension of my existing subscription with RMC.
 
As both an author and subscriber I've got to give RMJ credit for
their very ethical exit from the business.
 
Mont Switzer
Yeah...lots better than what I got from Mainline Modeller when they
went out leaving me hanging. Never did hear from them at all!!
Joe Berger


Re: ADMIN: Re: Re: Freight car distribution

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

Yes, Jack you are correct and those records for all railroads were forwarded to the car accounting offices. Most of the per diem was a paper exchange, but not all of it.
Not sure what you mean by this. All per diem was netted every month between every pair of railroads and money was exchanged. Except for the extremely inprobable event that two railroads had equla numbers of days of the other's cars for a month.

> Then of course there were the privately owned cars that were due their share as well.
Greg Martin
--------------------------------------

Privately owned cars were a very different thing. There was nothing analogous to the per diem settlement. Each railroad paid the owner of each car. For per diem, the critical document was the interchange report. For mileage cars the key accounting source document was the wheel report.


Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478


Re: The Freight Car Distribution Project

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

Posted by: "water.kresse@comcast.net" Coal and Freight Manifest classification yards were separated many times.
--------------------

Never heard of that, except for storage near water transfers. There were yards that were largely one or the other because of natrual traffic flows, but I never heard of such a separation otherwise. Any documentation of an example ?


Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478


Re: The Freight Car Distribution Project

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

I think that there might be several problems with this approach but the biggest problem is that you need to evaluate the numbers for one place in one time period. You can't combine different places. If you do, you are creating an "average" and will end up, by default with the national average.
===============

I don't think that's a problem if location is a key in the data base. Use state as a first approximation to location. Here's an example.

Look at these three state groups. FL+GA+AL+SC, NY+New England, CA+NV+OR+WA. If there are enough observations, approximately randomly distributed over a period of say 20 years, you could look at each of these areas and look at percentages of ownership by distance of the owner from that group of states. That might give us a good feeling for how the distance and equal distribution hypothese compare.

My guess is that to be statistically significant (based on gut feel of many of us, not on precise calculations), we would need maybe 10,000 cars from several hundred phots to limit sources of bias. Publicity photos should be excluded.

Having many years (e.g.10 to 15)seems to me to be an advantage rather than a limitation. That is time to smooth out peaking effects of things like large or small harvests, recessions, etc. But I wouldn't want to go to 30 or 40 years, which might mask long term trends.





Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478


Re: ORER discrepancy

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

Entirely true. At some point the ORER was legally made part of
the tariff structure, thus giving an impetus for reporting to be as
accurate as possible--maybe in that 1912-1913 time frame.
-------------------
The impetus was to have accuracy only on the uo side. It was necessary that any cay that might handle revenue traffic be listed, but not that every car listed be in service, or even exist.



Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478

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