Hi Richard - I'm curious - was there an AAR district shown for the Pacific coast of Canada (around Vancouver B.C. - just north of the border; just north of Bellingham Washington?) If yes, which district was it? If not, does anyone know why not?

Rob Kirkham


From: Richard Brennan
Sent: Friday, August 22, 2008 12:25 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Per Diem


At 11:24 AM 8/22/2008, timboconnor@comcast.net wrote:

Per diem in the 1950's was the same for all box cars, and was quite
low -- IIRC less than $3 a day.

In the Simmons-Boardman book "Freight Cars
Rolling" by Lawrence Sagle ©1960, an entire
chapter is devoted to the per diem issue... (Chapter 3, p61-70)

The per diem rate is described as having
started-out at $0.20 per day... and was at $2.88 per day by 1960.
Failure to report added another 15¢ to 60¢ per day depending on delay.

For non- per diem cars, mileage rates of from
0.6¢ to 4¢ per mile were paid, based on car type,
with tanks and reefers at the high end of the scale.

As far as reporting, Sagle describes four report
types, all based on the car waybills:
- Wheel Report - per train
- Interchange Report - cars exchanged between RRs
- Junction Report - foreign cars delivered to
another RR (i.e. passing the per diem buck...)
- Passing Report - ad hoc tracking of car movements

Return loading rules are described as: (in order)
- Return to home road (loaded or empty)
- Loaded in the direction of the home road
- loaded via any route to a destination within,
or in the direction of, the "home district"

An AAR map of the 23 districts from District 1
(WA-OR-ID) to District 23 (Eastern Canada) is
provided, along with several typical forms.

...and I always wondered why railroads had those huge buildings full of clerks!

--------------------
Richard Brennan - San Leandro CA
--------------------

Steam era freight car discussion group. The time period covered will
be from 1900-1960.
Messages In This Digest (8 Messages)
1a.
Re: ORER discrepancy From: George Hollwedel
1b.
Re: ORER discrepancy From: George W Simmons
2.1.
Re: Per Diem From: mcindoefalls
2.2.
Re: Per Diem From: George W Simmons
2.3.
Re: Per Diem From: Steve Lucas
3.1.
Re: What HO truck(s) do we STMFC'ers want? From: finkfam98055
3.2.
Re: What HO truck(s) do we STMFC'ers want? From: Brian J Carlson
3.3.
Re: What HO truck(s) do we STMFC'ers want? From: Brian Leppert
View All Topics | Create New Topic Messages
1a.
Re: ORER discrepancy
Posted by: "George Hollwedel" proto.nscale@yahoo.com proto.nscale
Fri Aug 22, 2008 3:09 pm (PDT)

Is "uo" US? Is "cay" car?

Prototype N Scale Models (TM)
by George Hollwedel
310 Loma Verde St
Buda, TX 78610-9785
512-796-6883
www.micro-trains.com/sr-0806-hollwedelATSF.php
www.micro-trains.com/hollwedel.php
www.imrcmodels.com/n/sr/html/GHollATSFExpressN.htm

> -------------------
> The impetus was to have accuracy only on the uo side. It
> was necessary that any cay that might handle revenue traffic
> be listed, but not that every car listed be in service, or
> even exist.
>
>
>
> Malcolm Laughlin, Editor
> 617-489-4383
> New England Rail Shipper Directories
> 19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

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Messages in this topic (3)
1b.
Re: ORER discrepancy
Posted by: "George W Simmons" GEORGESIMMONS@prodigy.net realmopacman
Fri Aug 22, 2008 4:48 pm (PDT)

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, George Hollwedel <proto.nscale@...> wrote:
>
> Is "uo" US? Is "cay" car?
>
I would say "uo" was to be "up" as in above the actual number and not
the railroad. And car makes sense in the sentence.

George Simmons
Dry Prong, LA

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web post
Messages in this topic (3)
2.1.
Re: Per Diem
Posted by: "mcindoefalls" mcindoefalls@yahoo.com mcindoefalls
Fri Aug 22, 2008 5:06 pm (PDT)

I think Steve's point was that the (bankrupt) O&W owed much, much more
in per diem payments than it could ever hope to receive from its
connections, given the paltry number of O&W cars that could go
off-line. I would venture to say that most of those O&W cars were
hoppers, which would likely stay on line or close to home. And so, the
O&W would have been shoveling per diem money out, while receiving next
to nothing in per diem receipts.

Walt Lankenau

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, timboconnor@... wrote:
>
> Steve
>
> Per diem in the 1950's was the same for all box cars, and was quite
> low -- IIRC less than $3 a day. Unless the NYSW was a parking lot for
> offline cars, I doubt they suffered from per diem overhead. After
all, if
> they could move a car across the system in 24 hours, they might avoid
> having to pay any per diem at all.
>
> Tim
>
> -------------- Original message ----------------------
> From: "Steve Lucas" <stevelucas3@...>
> > The Jan., 1953 ORER shows the NYO&W as having 146 cars suitable for
> > interchange. For an over 400-mile Class One pike, this road must
> > have had substantial per diem costs. No wonder that they went under
> > in 1957.
> >
> > Steve Lucas.
>

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Messages in this topic (33)
2.2.
Re: Per Diem
Posted by: "George W Simmons" GEORGESIMMONS@prodigy.net realmopacman
Fri Aug 22, 2008 6:49 pm (PDT)

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "mcindoefalls" <mcindoefalls@...> wrote:
>
> I think Steve's point was that the (bankrupt) O&W owed much, much
more
> in per diem payments than it could ever hope to receive from its
> connections, given the paltry number of O&W cars that could go
> off-line. I would venture to say that most of those O&W cars were
> hoppers, which would likely stay on line or close to home.

I checked the 1953 ORER reprint and the Old Woman owned a total of 13
boxcars each with interior length of 36 feet. Also, I wonder about the
speed of trains accross the Old and Weary, would they be able to move
cars at a speed that would preclude per diem payments.

George Simmons
Dry Prong, LA

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Messages in this topic (33)
2.3.
Re: Per Diem
Posted by: "Steve Lucas" stevelucas3@yahoo.ca stevelucas3
Fri Aug 22, 2008 8:25 pm (PDT)

The O&W did have some longhaul freights that ran between
Scranton, PA and Maybrook, NY in less than 16 hours. But any car
terminating on the O&W would have been on the property more than
24'. And I don't recall the O&W originating a lot of tonnage in its
20 years of bankruptcy from 1937-57. They did move some pig iron
south out of Oswego, NY, but it's been suggested that this traffic
did not produce much revenue after per-diem (foreign roads' cars
being used) and terminal expenses.

Other roads might have been able to balance the per diem payments on
foreign cars agianst money owed for their cars, but not the Old
Woman. The O&W did have many strikes aginst it in the later years,
and the per-diem expenses can't have helped its financial position.

Steve Lucas.

(always looking to learn more about the O&W)

In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "George W Simmons" <GEORGESIMMONS@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "mcindoefalls" <mcindoefalls@> wrote:
> >
> > I think Steve's point was that the (bankrupt) O&W owed much, much
more
> > in per diem payments than it could ever hope to receive from its
> > connections, given the paltry number of O&W cars that could go
> > off-line. I would venture to say that most of those O&W cars were
> > hoppers, which would likely stay on line or close to home.
>
> I checked the 1953 ORER reprint and the Old Woman owned a total of
13
> boxcars each with interior length of 36 feet. Also, I wonder about
the
> speed of trains accross the Old and Weary, would they be able to
move
> cars at a speed that would preclude per diem payments.
>
> George Simmons
> Dry Prong, LA
>

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Messages in this topic (33)
3.1.
Re: What HO truck(s) do we STMFC'ers want?
Posted by: "finkfam98055" finkfam2@comcast.net finkfam98055
Fri Aug 22, 2008 7:41 pm (PDT)

I have not seen anyone mentioned it yet, so I'll remind members that
Eastern Car Works offers 3 different types of 4-wheel, 70-ton HO
trucks. I've used and can recommend their #9064 Bettendorf as
representative of the type. Note that the Eastern Car Works trucks
need careful assembly (with glue) and do not come with wheels. Retail
list price is $3 for a pair. I believe #9064 is the same type as
pictured at the link to the ERIE 10325 gon photo in message 75505
(thanks John Hile).
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/erie10325b.jpg

Larry Fink
--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "John Hile" <john66h@...> wrote:
>
> --- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Leppert" <b.leppert@> wrote:
> >
> > I think any properly rendered 70-ton truck in HO will look
distinctly
> > different from 50-ton trucks, especially with that wider bolster,
> and are
> > certainly needed.

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Messages in this topic (27)
3.2.
Re: What HO truck(s) do we STMFC'ers want?
Posted by: "Brian J Carlson" brian@bluemoon.net prrk41361
Fri Aug 22, 2008 8:35 pm (PDT)

True, and I used some ECW Dalman's before Brian's came out. However,
the ECW
trucks are stryene and wear out with use. This can be fixed by delrin
axle
point caps. However, Tahoe trucks are better detailed, and one piece
acetal
plastic so if Brian does do a 70 ton truck, I have a ton of P2k gons
that
can use them.

Brian J Carlson P.E.
Cheektowaga NY

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Messages in this topic (27)
3.3.
Re: What HO truck(s) do we STMFC'ers want?
Posted by: "Brian Leppert" b.leppert@att.net brianleppert
Sat Aug 23, 2008 12:22 am (PDT)

Andy and Jason,

The Atlas truck is a very poor representation of the National C-1 70-
ton truck. If you have Tony's SP Freight Cars, vol.1, Gondolas and
Stock Cars, see page 218 for what the prototype really looks like.

Brian Leppert
Tahoe Model Works
Carson City, NV

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Andy Sperandeo" <asperandeo@...>
wrote:
>
> Brian, I think you're on to something with the 70-ton trucks. I
just built a Sunshine NYC
> gondola kit that needed 70-ton trucks with a 3-1-3 spring package.
I used a pair of Atlas
> trucks from a Hart convertible ballast car, adding semi-scale
wheels and Kadee brake shoes.
> However, Atlas doesn't list these as separate parts and they aren't
as nice as your trucks
> anyway.
>
> Good luck,
>
> Andy
>

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Messages in this topic (27)
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True, and I used some ECW Dalman's before Brian's came out. However, the ECW
trucks are stryene and wear out with use. This can be fixed by delrin axle
point caps. However, Tahoe trucks are better detailed, and one piece acetal
plastic so if Brian does do a 70 ton truck, I have a ton of P2k gons that
can use them.

Brian J Carlson P.E.
Cheektowaga NY

The O&W did have some longhaul freights that ran between
Scranton, PA and Maybrook, NY in less than 16 hours. But any car
terminating on the O&W would have been on the property more than
24'. And I don't recall the O&W originating a lot of tonnage in its
20 years of bankruptcy from 1937-57. They did move some pig iron
south out of Oswego, NY, but it's been suggested that this traffic
did not produce much revenue after per-diem (foreign roads' cars
being used) and terminal expenses.

Other roads might have been able to balance the per diem payments on
foreign cars agianst money owed for their cars, but not the Old
Woman. The O&W did have many strikes aginst it in the later years,
and the per-diem expenses can't have helped its financial position.

Steve Lucas.

(always looking to learn more about the O&W)

In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "George W Simmons" <GEORGESIMMONS@...>
wrote:

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "mcindoefalls" <mcindoefalls@> wrote:

I think Steve's point was that the (bankrupt) O&W owed much, much

more

in per diem payments than it could ever hope to receive from its
connections, given the paltry number of O&W cars that could go
off-line. I would venture to say that most of those O&W cars were
hoppers, which would likely stay on line or close to home.

I checked the 1953 ORER reprint and the Old Woman owned a total of

13

boxcars each with interior length of 36 feet. Also, I wonder about

the

speed of trains accross the Old and Weary, would they be able to

move

cars at a speed that would preclude per diem payments.

George Simmons
Dry Prong, LA

I have not seen anyone mentioned it yet, so I'll remind members that
Eastern Car Works offers 3 different types of 4-wheel, 70-ton HO
trucks. I've used and can recommend their #9064 Bettendorf as
representative of the type. Note that the Eastern Car Works trucks
need careful assembly (with glue) and do not come with wheels. Retail
list price is $3 for a pair. I believe #9064 is the same type as
pictured at the link to the ERIE 10325 gon photo in message 75505
(thanks John Hile).
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/erie10325b.jpg

Larry Fink
--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "John Hile" <john66h@...> wrote:

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Leppert" <b.leppert@> wrote:

I think any properly rendered 70-ton truck in HO will look

distinctly

different from 50-ton trucks, especially with that wider bolster,

and are

certainly needed.

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "mcindoefalls" <mcindoefalls@...> wrote:

I think Steve's point was that the (bankrupt) O&W owed much, much more
in per diem payments than it could ever hope to receive from its
connections, given the paltry number of O&W cars that could go
off-line. I would venture to say that most of those O&W cars were
hoppers, which would likely stay on line or close to home.

I checked the 1953 ORER reprint and the Old Woman owned a total of 13
boxcars each with interior length of 36 feet. Also, I wonder about the
speed of trains accross the Old and Weary, would they be able to move
cars at a speed that would preclude per diem payments.

George Simmons
Dry Prong, LA

The Jan., 1953 ORER shows the NYO&W as having 146 cars suitable for interchange. For an over 400-mile Class One pike, this road must have had substantial per diem costs. No wonder that they went under in 1957.
Steve Lucas
----------------

The per diem deficit is not necessarily a sign of a weak railroad. Mopst railroads bought cars to protect their on-line loading. A well managed primarily terminating road should have a per diem deficit. If you are a small railroad without ready access to the capital markets, it might be much cheaper to rent cars than to own them. Especialy if except for coal you are a terminating railroad. W eshould remember that in the 50's the railroads that were buying a lot of cars also were screaming about the per diem rate being too low to pay for their cost of car ownership. The terminating roads in the east were probably much better off renting cars thanif they had had to pay the costs of buying and maintaining those cars.


Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478

I think Steve's point was that the (bankrupt) O&W owed much, much more
in per diem payments than it could ever hope to receive from its
connections, given the paltry number of O&W cars that could go
off-line. I would venture to say that most of those O&W cars were
hoppers, which would likely stay on line or close to home. And so, the
O&W would have been shoveling per diem money out, while receiving next
to nothing in per diem receipts.

Walt Lankenau

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, timboconnor@... wrote:

Steve

Per diem in the 1950's was the same for all box cars, and was quite
low -- IIRC less than $3 a day. Unless the NYSW was a parking lot for
offline cars, I doubt they suffered from per diem overhead. After

all, if

they could move a car across the system in 24 hours, they might avoid
having to pay any per diem at all.

Tim

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Steve Lucas" <stevelucas3@...>

The Jan., 1953 ORER shows the NYO&W as having 146 cars suitable for
interchange. For an over 400-mile Class One pike, this road must
have had substantial per diem costs. No wonder that they went under
in 1957.

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, George Hollwedel <proto.nscale@...> wrote:

Is "uo" US? Is "cay" car?

I would say "uo" was to be "up" as in above the actual number and not
the railroad. And car makes sense in the sentence.

George Simmons
Dry Prong, LA

Is "uo" US? Is "cay" car?

Prototype N Scale Models (TM)
by George Hollwedel
310 Loma Verde St
Buda, TX 78610-9785
512-796-6883
www.micro-trains.com/sr-0806-hollwedelATSF.php
www.micro-trains.com/hollwedel.php
www.imrcmodels.com/n/sr/html/GHollATSFExpressN.htm

Andy and Jason,

The Atlas truck is a very poor representation of the National C-1 70-
ton truck. If you have Tony's SP Freight Cars, vol.1, Gondolas and
Stock Cars, see page 218 for what the prototype really looks like.

Brian Leppert
Tahoe Model Works
Carson City, NV

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Andy Sperandeo" <asperandeo@...>
wrote:

Brian, I think you're on to something with the 70-ton trucks. I

just built a Sunshine NYC

gondola kit that needed 70-ton trucks with a 3-1-3 spring package.

I used a pair of Atlas

trucks from a Hart convertible ballast car, adding semi-scale

wheels and Kadee brake shoes.

However, Atlas doesn't list these as separate parts and they aren't

as nice as your trucks

anyway.

Good luck,

Andy

And now, a break from the Freight Car Distribution Debate...

I've been extremely remiss about posting articles of interest in The
Keystone Modeler as it comes out - for those of you who haven't
checked out the PRRT&HS website lately, here are STMFC articles of
interest that have appeared so far this year:

August 2008
"Walthers N6B, Corrected and Backdated" by Ed Walters
"Modeling the Pennsylvania Railroad's Box Car Fleet Part 8 - The
Pennsy's X26C Class - The Sunshine Resin Kit" by Elden Gatwood
"Building the TM8 (AC&F Type11) Tank Car" by Bruce F. Smith

July 2008
"More 2008 Annual Meeting Model Photos" by Elden Gatwood
"PRRPro Class X31 Preliminary Feature" by Al Buchan

June 2008
"[Modeling the Pennsylvania Railroad's Box Car Fleet Part 7 - ]
Scratchbuilding a PRR Class XI Furniture Car" by David J. Vinci
"2008 Annual Meeting Contest Winners" by Elden Gatwood

May 2008
"Modeling the Pennsylvania Railroad's Box Car Fleet Part 6 – Class
X51 Prototype Overview" by Ben Hom
"Modeling the Pennsylvania Railroad's Box Car Fleet Part 6A -
Modeling HO scale PRR Class X51 Boxcars" by Tom Haag

April 2008
"Modeling the Pennsylvania Railroad's Gondola Fleet Part 18-2 – The
G28 Class Gondola Variants" by Jack Consoli
"National Car Company 37' Meat Refrigerator Car - A kitbash of the
Accurail wood reefer" by Bruce F. Smith

Winter 2008 Special Issue:
"The Wood Sheathed Cars of the FGEX/WFEX/BREX Freight Refrigerator
Fleet: 1940-1953" by Bill Welch

March 2008
"Product Review HO-scale InterMountain Fruit Growers Express 40-foot
Wood-Sheathed Refrigerator Car" by Bill Welch

February 2008
"Modeling PRR N5C 477929" by David Skirmont
"Modeling PRR Class F30A Flat Car 474489" by Jack Burgess

January 2008
"Here's What I'm Modeling - HO-Scale PRR Freight Cars" by John Golden

Each of these issues can be downloaded free of charge at
http://www.prrths.com/Keystone%20Modeler/Keystone_Modeler.htm

CDs of past issues (only the past 12 months' issues are on the
website) are available; ordering information is on the last page of
any issue of TKM.


Ben Hom

Charlie,
 
See next message.
 
Mont

Ben,
 
See next message.
 
Mont

I phoned in an order to NWSL last week. Upon inquiry I learned that
NWSL has been sold and that there is an ongoing "transition."
Gene Green

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Leppert" <b.leppert@...> wrote:

I think any properly rendered 70-ton truck in HO will look distinctly
different from 50-ton trucks, especially with that wider bolster,

and are

certainly needed.

Brian,

Thanks for all of the great info. You summarized my thoughts on the
70-ton trucks quite well - available 50-ton trucks just don't quite
capture the feel of the longer wheelbase, wider bolster, spring
spacing, and spring arrangements of the 70-ton versions - at least not
to me.


Thanks Again,

John Hile
Blacksburg, VA

At 11:24 AM 8/22/2008, timboconnor@comcast.net wrote:

Per diem in the 1950's was the same for all box cars, and was quite
low -- IIRC less than $3 a day.

In the Simmons-Boardman book "Freight Cars
Rolling" by Lawrence Sagle ©1960, an entire
chapter is devoted to the per diem issue... (Chapter 3, p61-70)

The per diem rate is described as having
started-out at $0.20 per day... and was at $2.88 per day by 1960.
Failure to report added another 15¢ to 60¢ per day depending on delay.

For non- per diem cars, mileage rates of from
0.6¢ to 4¢ per mile were paid, based on car type,
with tanks and reefers at the high end of the scale.

As far as reporting, Sagle describes four report
types, all based on the car waybills:
- Wheel Report - per train
- Interchange Report - cars exchanged between RRs
- Junction Report - foreign cars delivered to
another RR (i.e. passing the per diem buck...)
- Passing Report - ad hoc tracking of car movements

Return loading rules are described as: (in order)
- Return to home road (loaded or empty)
- Loaded in the direction of the home road
- loaded via any route to a destination within,
or in the direction of, the "home district"

An AAR map of the 23 districts from District 1
(WA-OR-ID) to District 23 (Eastern Canada) is
provided, along with several typical forms.

...and I always wondered why railroads had those huge buildings full of clerks!


--------------------
Richard Brennan - San Leandro CA
--------------------

Brian,
 
         You make them, we WILL buy them! Next question???
 
Fred Freitas

Brian, I think you're on to something with the 70-ton trucks. I just built a Sunshine NYC
gondola kit that needed 70-ton trucks with a 3-1-3 spring package. I used a pair of Atlas
trucks from a Hart convertible ballast car, adding semi-scale wheels and Kadee brake shoes.
However, Atlas doesn't list these as separate parts and they aren't as nice as your trucks
anyway.

Good luck,

Andy

Steve

Per diem in the 1950's was the same for all box cars, and was quite
low -- IIRC less than $3 a day. Unless the NYSW was a parking lot for
offline cars, I doubt they suffered from per diem overhead. After all, if
they could move a car across the system in 24 hours, they might avoid
having to pay any per diem at all.

Tim