In a message dated 8/23/2008 12:25:37 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
wakeene@... writes:

My question is what amount of operating time/distance are we looking
at that will result in worn trucks?



Our locomotives and rolling stock routinely run 5+/- actual miles a year
during our holiday show. After 15 years we needed to start a program of
changing the wheels on Kato built Kato, Stewart and Atlas locomotives because the
nickel plating had worn off and the wheels were no longer the proper diameter.
Newer non-Kato locomotives require wheel change outs roughly every 3 - 4
years. For the most part, rolling stock trucks have only begun to show problems
after 20 years of service. We do need to change out wheel sets (we use only
metal wheel sets) because of a loss of material resulting in under size
diameters. We are using primarily IM, P2K and Branchline wheel sets. We did
have problems with JayBee wheel sets 1) not staying in gauge, 2) being out of
gauge as manufactured, 3, wheels not square to the axle and 4) excessive wear
in the side frames until we replaced all the JB wheels. We attributed the
latter to the wheels not beign square to the axle and placing unusually stress
and wear on the side frames from twisted, out of alingment axles.

Based in this data, it would seem that wear from "normal" home layout usage
would be not be a concern. But, another combination of truck side frames and
wheel sets may have totally different results.

On another note, this past year we measured the track which has been in use
the longest time -- code 83 Microengineering rail on CV ties and found less
than .005 wear on code 83 track.

Rich Orr
Western Pennsylvania Model Railroad Museum



**************It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel
deal here.
(http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047)

Hi Chris,

would it be possible for you to provide the pictures a bit bigger ?? The motives deseerve more then 448 by 330, IMHO...


best regards

Bernd

many miles away from any RPM meet...

Here are some more photos of the St. Louis RPM...

http://www.pbase.com/cttmopac/2008_st_louis_rpm&page=all

In addition, Perry Lambert has phots at...
http://www.pbase.com/superfleet93/st_louis_rpm_meet_2008&page=all

Best Regards,
Chris Thies

On Aug 23, 2008, at 7:27 AM, Tim O'Connor wrote:

Bill

Those 'notches' on either side of the spring pack
remind me of Barber S-2. Maybe an earlier Barber?

Tim

I'd like to add this 50 ton truck to the wish list.
It's good for tank cars built in the thirties.
I don't know the manufacturer, Scullin perhaps.
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/acfx/dax309asw.jpg

Hard to tell from the Fallen Flags image, but I happen to have a 2/59
in-service photo of exactly the same car, DAX 309, thanks to the
redoubtable Col. Chet McCoid, which shows the trucks better. They
were U-section ARA cast steel with spring planks - definitely not an
early Barber Stabilized truck - and Bill's guess is a good one, the
side frames appear to be Scullin. See the photo on p. 624 of the
1931 Car Builders' Cyclopedia.

Richard Hendrickson

On Aug 23, 2008, at 7:25 AM, Tim O'Connor wrote:

I really like the massive look of the trucks on this 65 foot
Erie #15000 gondola, although I don't know what kind they are.

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/erie15000cdb.jpg

70 ton AAR with 5-spring spring group, spring plank, and Barber
lateral motion devices.

Richard Hendrickson

Excellent! Thanks Richard!


From: Richard Brennan
Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2008 9:43 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Per Diem - AAR Home Districts


At 07:00 AM 8/23/2008, Rob Kirkham wrote:

Hi Richard - I'm curious - was there an AAR district shown for the
Pacific coast of Canada (around Vancouver B.C. - just north of the
border; just north of Bellingham Washington?) If yes, which district was it?

Rob

Nothing that granular: BC was AAR Zone 22 "Western Canada"...
Railroads shown as "Principal Freight Car owners" in Zone 22 were:
CN, CP, GN, MStP&SSM, NP, PGE, SOO

Here are all the AAR Car Service Division "Home Districts" (circa 1960)
United States (using current state abbreviations...)
1 - WA,OR, ID
2 - CA, NV
3 - MT
4 - WY
5 - UT, CO
6 - AZ, NM
7 - ND, SD
8 - NB, KS
9 - OK
10 - TX (including NdeM)
11 - MN, WI, IA
12 - MO
13 - AK, LA
14 - IL
15 - MI, IN, OH
16 - NY, PA, NJ, DE
17 - ME, NH, VT, MA, CT, RI
18 - KY, TN
19 - WV, VA, MD, DC
20 - NC, SC
21 - MS, AL, GA, FL

Canada:
22 - Western Canada (~Sault Ste. Marie, ON west...)
23 - Eastern Canada (~Sault Ste. Marie, ON east...)

--------------------
Richard Brennan - San Leandro CA
--------------------

Wouldn't the per diem be offset by the NYO&W's share of the revenue
for whatever was being shipped?
Gene Green

--- In STMFC@..., Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
wrote:

The Jan., 1953 ORER shows the NYO&W as having 146 cars suitable for

interchange. For an over 400-mile Class One pike, this road must have
had substantial per diem costs. No wonder that they went under in
1957.

Steve Lucas
----------------

The per diem deficit is not necessarily a sign of a weak

railroad. Mopst railroads bought cars to protect their on-line
loading. A well managed primarily terminating road should have a per
diem deficit. If you are a small railroad without ready access to
the capital markets, it might be much cheaper to rent cars than to
own them. Especialy if except for coal you are a terminating
railroad. W eshould remember that in the 50's the railroads that
were buying a lot of cars also were screaming about the per diem rate
being too low to pay for their cost of car ownership. The
terminating roads in the east were probably much better off renting
cars thanif they had had to pay the costs of buying and maintaining
those cars.

Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Brian and Tom, I just went to the site and the homepage showed up.
 
Sincerely, Mark Morgan

At 07:00 AM 8/23/2008, Rob Kirkham wrote:

Hi Richard - I'm curious - was there an AAR district shown for the Pacific coast of Canada (around Vancouver B.C. - just north of the border; just north of Bellingham Washington?) If yes, which district was it?

Rob

Nothing that granular: BC was AAR Zone 22 "Western Canada"...
Railroads shown as "Principal Freight Car owners" in Zone 22 were:
CN, CP, GN, MStP&SSM, NP, PGE, SOO

Here are all the AAR Car Service Division "Home Districts" (circa 1960)
United States (using current state abbreviations...)
1 - WA,OR, ID
2 - CA, NV
3 - MT
4 - WY
5 - UT, CO
6 - AZ, NM
7 - ND, SD
8 - NB, KS
9 - OK
10 - TX (including NdeM)
11 - MN, WI, IA
12 - MO
13 - AK, LA
14 - IL
15 - MI, IN, OH
16 - NY, PA, NJ, DE
17 - ME, NH, VT, MA, CT, RI
18 - KY, TN
19 - WV, VA, MD, DC
20 - NC, SC
21 - MS, AL, GA, FL

Canada:
22 - Western Canada (~Sault Ste. Marie, ON west...)
23 - Eastern Canada (~Sault Ste. Marie, ON east...)


--------------------
Richard Brennan - San Leandro CA
--------------------

Hello Group,

From time to time I have seen comments from the Group regarding truck
wear from operation and I can understand that this is a concern. Worn
trucks could take the fun out of an operating evening.

My question is what amount of operating time/distance are we looking
at that will result in worn trucks?

Almost all of my layouts over my 50-years of running model trains have
been switching layouts. Mostly smaller in size with one exception. The
present layout (HO-scale and currently under construction) will result
in a maximum car movement distance during a typical operating day of
about 46-feet (actual) or a bit less than one scale mile. I do not
believe at this limited operation distance that truck wear would be
considered much of a problem.

I have also operated on larger home layouts and club layouts and do
not recall any steam era freight cars ever being sent to the RIP track
due to worn trucks.

So just how much "mileage" does it take to wear out a scale truck?

Cheers,
-- Bill Keene
Irvine, CA

It does appear to be down, but if you do a Google search on
Speedwitch and then open a cached page, you can access all the
content. I know Ted had a bunch of bad internal links on his web
site, perhaps he's getting those cleaned up.

Tom M.

Working fine from my links page Brian...ISP issues at your end perhaps?
Regards,
Peter
http://www.freewebs.com/newhavenrailroad1959/

Comes up not found!
--
Thanks!

Brian Ehni

Think about it -- lots of railroads had per diem deficits.
Imagine the size of the Belt Railway of Chicago's deficit --
they usually had 10,000 or more cars of other railroads on
their property!

Tim O'Connor

--- In STMFC@..., "Malcolm Laughlin" <mlaughlinnyc@...>
wrote:

CN did a systemwide 8 AM check in the era of STMFC.

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@..., Larry Jackman <Ljack70117@> wrote:

At 6 AM each morning the entire yard was check and recorded on a

special form. Two copies were sent to the accounting department

and

two copies to the car department and one filed in the files where
they were recorded.

This was done on the whole RR and was done on The Un Pac and John
Santa Fe.

It is of my opinion that this was done on every RR
in the good old US of A, So at 6 AM every freight car
in the good old US of A was on record.

I know for certain that it was not done on the NYC, MILW, NS or

B&M.

The UP and ATSF were rather wealthy railroads, from long haul
revenue, and in the 60's were not known for keeping a sharp eye on
costs.

So they not only needed to be known, they were known.

That it was done does not tell us that it was needed. It sounds

like

a want on the part of some official to give the car accounting
department a means for cross checking the data received from
interchange reports and wheel reports. Whether the costs saved by
having that cross reference exceeded the cost of all those yard

clerk

hours is an interesting question.

Walt

And my point was that per diem was not even money to pay
down the interest on the bonds needed to buy new freight
cars in the 1950's, much less total ownership costs. So
while NYSW (not the O&W, how did that come up?), generally
any railroad that was a net "borrower" of freight cars of
other railroads was not much admired by companies who felt
they contributed more than their share to the national pool.
This is well documented in railroad annual reports in the
1950's. If the O&W did not buy new cars, then I very much
doubt that 'per diem' deficits was the real problem -- many
railroads had per diem deficits for one reason or another
and had no difficulty with it.

Tim O'Connor

Bill

Those 'notches' on either side of the spring pack
remind me of Barber S-2. Maybe an earlier Barber?

Tim

I really like the massive look of the trucks on this 65 foot
Erie #15000 gondola, although I don't know what kind they are.

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/erie15000cdb.jpg

Tim O'Connor

Hi Richard - I'm curious - was there an AAR district shown for the Pacific coast of Canada (around Vancouver B.C. - just north of the border; just north of Bellingham Washington?) If yes, which district was it? If not, does anyone know why not?

Rob Kirkham


From: Richard Brennan
Sent: Friday, August 22, 2008 12:25 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Per Diem


At 11:24 AM 8/22/2008, @timboconnor wrote:

Per diem in the 1950's was the same for all box cars, and was quite
low -- IIRC less than $3 a day.

In the Simmons-Boardman book "Freight Cars
Rolling" by Lawrence Sagle ©1960, an entire
chapter is devoted to the per diem issue... (Chapter 3, p61-70)

The per diem rate is described as having
started-out at $0.20 per day... and was at $2.88 per day by 1960.
Failure to report added another 15¢ to 60¢ per day depending on delay.

For non- per diem cars, mileage rates of from
0.6¢ to 4¢ per mile were paid, based on car type,
with tanks and reefers at the high end of the scale.

As far as reporting, Sagle describes four report
types, all based on the car waybills:
- Wheel Report - per train
- Interchange Report - cars exchanged between RRs
- Junction Report - foreign cars delivered to
another RR (i.e. passing the per diem buck...)
- Passing Report - ad hoc tracking of car movements

Return loading rules are described as: (in order)
- Return to home road (loaded or empty)
- Loaded in the direction of the home road
- loaded via any route to a destination within,
or in the direction of, the "home district"

An AAR map of the 23 districts from District 1
(WA-OR-ID) to District 23 (Eastern Canada) is
provided, along with several typical forms.

...and I always wondered why railroads had those huge buildings full of clerks!

--------------------
Richard Brennan - San Leandro CA
--------------------

Steam era freight car discussion group. The time period covered will
be from 1900-1960.
Messages In This Digest (8 Messages)
1a.
Re: ORER discrepancy From: George Hollwedel
1b.
Re: ORER discrepancy From: George W Simmons
2.1.
Re: Per Diem From: mcindoefalls
2.2.
Re: Per Diem From: George W Simmons
2.3.
Re: Per Diem From: Steve Lucas
3.1.
Re: What HO truck(s) do we STMFC'ers want? From: finkfam98055
3.2.
Re: What HO truck(s) do we STMFC'ers want? From: Brian J Carlson
3.3.
Re: What HO truck(s) do we STMFC'ers want? From: Brian Leppert
View All Topics | Create New Topic Messages
1a.
Re: ORER discrepancy
Posted by: "George Hollwedel" @GeorgeH proto.nscale
Fri Aug 22, 2008 3:09 pm (PDT)

Is "uo" US? Is "cay" car?

Prototype N Scale Models (TM)
by George Hollwedel
310 Loma Verde St
Buda, TX 78610-9785
512-796-6883
www.micro-trains.com/sr-0806-hollwedelATSF.php
www.micro-trains.com/hollwedel.php
www.imrcmodels.com/n/sr/html/GHollATSFExpressN.htm

> -------------------
> The impetus was to have accuracy only on the uo side. It
> was necessary that any cay that might handle revenue traffic
> be listed, but not that every car listed be in service, or
> even exist.
>
>
>
> Malcolm Laughlin, Editor
> 617-489-4383
> New England Rail Shipper Directories
> 19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

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Messages in this topic (3)
1b.
Re: ORER discrepancy
Posted by: "George W Simmons" GEORGESIMMONS@... realmopacman
Fri Aug 22, 2008 4:48 pm (PDT)

--- In STMFC@..., George Hollwedel <proto.nscale@...> wrote:
>
> Is "uo" US? Is "cay" car?
>
I would say "uo" was to be "up" as in above the actual number and not
the railroad. And car makes sense in the sentence.

George Simmons
Dry Prong, LA

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Messages in this topic (3)
2.1.
Re: Per Diem
Posted by: "mcindoefalls" mcindoefalls@... mcindoefalls
Fri Aug 22, 2008 5:06 pm (PDT)

I think Steve's point was that the (bankrupt) O&W owed much, much more
in per diem payments than it could ever hope to receive from its
connections, given the paltry number of O&W cars that could go
off-line. I would venture to say that most of those O&W cars were
hoppers, which would likely stay on line or close to home. And so, the
O&W would have been shoveling per diem money out, while receiving next
to nothing in per diem receipts.

Walt Lankenau

--- In STMFC@..., timboconnor@... wrote:
>
> Steve
>
> Per diem in the 1950's was the same for all box cars, and was quite
> low -- IIRC less than $3 a day. Unless the NYSW was a parking lot for
> offline cars, I doubt they suffered from per diem overhead. After
all, if
> they could move a car across the system in 24 hours, they might avoid
> having to pay any per diem at all.
>
> Tim
>
> -------------- Original message ----------------------
> From: "Steve Lucas" <stevelucas3@...>
> > The Jan., 1953 ORER shows the NYO&W as having 146 cars suitable for
> > interchange. For an over 400-mile Class One pike, this road must
> > have had substantial per diem costs. No wonder that they went under
> > in 1957.
> >
> > Steve Lucas.
>

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Messages in this topic (33)
2.2.
Re: Per Diem
Posted by: "George W Simmons" GEORGESIMMONS@... realmopacman
Fri Aug 22, 2008 6:49 pm (PDT)

--- In STMFC@..., "mcindoefalls" <mcindoefalls@...> wrote:
>
> I think Steve's point was that the (bankrupt) O&W owed much, much
more
> in per diem payments than it could ever hope to receive from its
> connections, given the paltry number of O&W cars that could go
> off-line. I would venture to say that most of those O&W cars were
> hoppers, which would likely stay on line or close to home.

I checked the 1953 ORER reprint and the Old Woman owned a total of 13
boxcars each with interior length of 36 feet. Also, I wonder about the
speed of trains accross the Old and Weary, would they be able to move
cars at a speed that would preclude per diem payments.

George Simmons
Dry Prong, LA

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Messages in this topic (33)
2.3.
Re: Per Diem
Posted by: "Steve Lucas" stevelucas3@... stevelucas3
Fri Aug 22, 2008 8:25 pm (PDT)

The O&W did have some longhaul freights that ran between
Scranton, PA and Maybrook, NY in less than 16 hours. But any car
terminating on the O&W would have been on the property more than
24'. And I don't recall the O&W originating a lot of tonnage in its
20 years of bankruptcy from 1937-57. They did move some pig iron
south out of Oswego, NY, but it's been suggested that this traffic
did not produce much revenue after per-diem (foreign roads' cars
being used) and terminal expenses.

Other roads might have been able to balance the per diem payments on
foreign cars agianst money owed for their cars, but not the Old
Woman. The O&W did have many strikes aginst it in the later years,
and the per-diem expenses can't have helped its financial position.

Steve Lucas.

(always looking to learn more about the O&W)

In STMFC@..., "George W Simmons" <GEORGESIMMONS@...>
wrote:
>
> --- In STMFC@..., "mcindoefalls" <mcindoefalls@> wrote:
> >
> > I think Steve's point was that the (bankrupt) O&W owed much, much
more
> > in per diem payments than it could ever hope to receive from its
> > connections, given the paltry number of O&W cars that could go
> > off-line. I would venture to say that most of those O&W cars were
> > hoppers, which would likely stay on line or close to home.
>
> I checked the 1953 ORER reprint and the Old Woman owned a total of
13
> boxcars each with interior length of 36 feet. Also, I wonder about
the
> speed of trains accross the Old and Weary, would they be able to
move
> cars at a speed that would preclude per diem payments.
>
> George Simmons
> Dry Prong, LA
>

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Messages in this topic (33)
3.1.
Re: What HO truck(s) do we STMFC'ers want?
Posted by: "finkfam98055" finkfam2@... finkfam98055
Fri Aug 22, 2008 7:41 pm (PDT)

I have not seen anyone mentioned it yet, so I'll remind members that
Eastern Car Works offers 3 different types of 4-wheel, 70-ton HO
trucks. I've used and can recommend their #9064 Bettendorf as
representative of the type. Note that the Eastern Car Works trucks
need careful assembly (with glue) and do not come with wheels. Retail
list price is $3 for a pair. I believe #9064 is the same type as
pictured at the link to the ERIE 10325 gon photo in message 75505
(thanks John Hile).
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/frt/erie10325b.jpg

Larry Fink
--- In STMFC@..., "John Hile" <john66h@...> wrote:
>
> --- In STMFC@..., "Brian Leppert" <b.leppert@> wrote:
> >
> > I think any properly rendered 70-ton truck in HO will look
distinctly
> > different from 50-ton trucks, especially with that wider bolster,
> and are
> > certainly needed.

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Messages in this topic (27)
3.2.
Re: What HO truck(s) do we STMFC'ers want?
Posted by: "Brian J Carlson" brian@... prrk41361
Fri Aug 22, 2008 8:35 pm (PDT)

True, and I used some ECW Dalman's before Brian's came out. However,
the ECW
trucks are stryene and wear out with use. This can be fixed by delrin
axle
point caps. However, Tahoe trucks are better detailed, and one piece
acetal
plastic so if Brian does do a 70 ton truck, I have a ton of P2k gons
that
can use them.

Brian J Carlson P.E.
Cheektowaga NY

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Messages in this topic (27)
3.3.
Re: What HO truck(s) do we STMFC'ers want?
Posted by: "Brian Leppert" b.leppert@... brianleppert
Sat Aug 23, 2008 12:22 am (PDT)

Andy and Jason,

The Atlas truck is a very poor representation of the National C-1 70-
ton truck. If you have Tony's SP Freight Cars, vol.1, Gondolas and
Stock Cars, see page 218 for what the prototype really looks like.

Brian Leppert
Tahoe Model Works
Carson City, NV

--- In STMFC@..., "Andy Sperandeo" <asperandeo@...>
wrote:
>
> Brian, I think you're on to something with the 70-ton trucks. I
just built a Sunshine NYC
> gondola kit that needed 70-ton trucks with a 3-1-3 spring package.
I used a pair of Atlas
> trucks from a Hart convertible ballast car, adding semi-scale
wheels and Kadee brake shoes.
> However, Atlas doesn't list these as separate parts and they aren't
as nice as your trucks
> anyway.
>
> Good luck,
>
> Andy
>

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Messages in this topic (27)
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