Date   

Re: Per Diem

Tim O'Connor
 

Steve

Per diem in the 1950's was the same for all box cars, and was quite
low -- IIRC less than $3 a day. Unless the NYSW was a parking lot for
offline cars, I doubt they suffered from per diem overhead. After all, if
they could move a car across the system in 24 hours, they might avoid
having to pay any per diem at all.

Tim

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Steve Lucas" <stevelucas3@yahoo.ca>
The Jan., 1953 ORER shows the NYO&W as having 146 cars suitable for
interchange. For an over 400-mile Class One pike, this road must
have had substantial per diem costs. No wonder that they went under
in 1957.

Steve Lucas.


Re: What HO truck(s) do we STMFC'ers want?

Brian Leppert <b.leppert@...>
 

I guess I should respond to the 70-ton truck requests. First of all some typical features of these trucks:

Wheel base--5'-8" (versus 5'-6" for 40/50-ton trucks)

Journal boxes--6X11' size, minimum 9 5/8" outside width (versus 9" for 50-ton, 5 1/2 X 10" journal)

Bolster width--17" (versus 13" for 40/50-ton trucks) This scales out to .046" difference in HO.

Spring groups, per sideframe--Conventional trucks ( cast steel, U-section with integral journal boxes and spring planks, without the double-truss feature) five springs in a 2-1-2 pattern
Increased Spring Capacity trucks (popular in the second half of the 1920s into the early 1930s) Dalman, 7 springs in a 2-3-2 pattern and Symington, 7 springs in a 3-1-3 pattern. Examples of Symington trucks can be seen in Hendrickson's truck article in RPC #4, photos #15 and 17. The 50-ton version had 6 springs in a 2-1-1-2 pattern. And by the way, the 50-ton photo has Symington's version of lateral motion device, not Barber's.
Double Truss trucks (introduced in 1933, I think) 7 springs, in a 3-1-3 pattern.
ASF A-3 Ride Control 7 Springs, in a 2-3-2 pattern

I think any properly rendered 70-ton truck in HO will look distinctly different from 50-ton trucks, especially with that wider bolster, and are certainly needed. I would like to do both the A-3 and double truss versions, and I feel most of the double truss trucks had spring planks--unless someone can convince me otherwise.

Richard has once again commented about many HO trucks having oversize journals. I did some measuring this morning and came up with the following.

For comparison, here's the outside width of prototype journal boxes and HO equivalents:

40-ton 8 1/2" .098"
50-ton 9" .103"
70-ton 9 5/8" .111"

MDC bettendorf .103"
Kadee bettendorf .105"
Atlas bettendorf .103"
Tichy bettendorf .075"
Accurail bettendorf .100"
TrueLine Trains bettendorf .112"
P2K Spring Plankless .125"
P2K National Type B .105"
Branchline S-2 .095"
InterMountain ASF .105"
Kato ASF A-3 .109"
TMW Dalman .104"
TMW Buckeye ARA .104"

All dimensions were measured at front of box..

I'm sticking my neck out on all of this, so would be open to any disagreements

Brian Leppert
Tahoe Model Works
Carson City, NV

----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Hendrickson" <rhendrickson@opendoor.com>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2008 4:45 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: What HO truck(s) do we STMFC'ers want?





My strong preference would be for those on the Erie gon. The trucks
on the flat car were self-aligning spring-plankless, and we have
several of those in HO scale already (granted, they're supposed to be
fifty ton trucks, but on several of them the journal boxes are
sufficiently oversize that they're closer in appearance to 70 ton
trucks anyway). The trucks on the Lackawanna covered hopper were ASF
A-3s, and we have already have relatively good A-3s in HO; again,
they're supposed to be fifty ton trucks, but the difference in
journal box size isn't very obvious. The trucks on the Erie gondola
were 70 ton self-aligning spring-plankless double truss with six
springs on each side, three across facing outward, and that's a
rather common design which we've never had in HO. Brian?

Richard Hendrickson


For Sale - HO Red Caboose, Sunshine, and PSC

parkcitybranch <parkcitybranch@...>
 

I have a few items for sale including some 1937 Red Caboose Union
Pacific Boxcars, a few different Red Caboose flatcars, a few PRR X-29
boxcars by Red Caboose, a brass PSC 52' PFE Reefer, and a Sunshine
Models X-31A with no decals. E-mail off-list for details and pricing.
Thanks.

Jason Sanford


Re: RAILMODEL JOURNAL

Charlie Vlk
 

Mont-

What is RAILMODEL?

Not sure I have seen that magazine....

....maybe Railroad Model Craftsman???

Charlie Vlk

----- Original Message -----
From: Mont Switzer
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, August 22, 2008 9:39 AM
Subject: [STMFC] RAILMODEL JOURNAL


Just received a letter advising that my unfulfilled RMJ subescription has been transferred to RAILMDOEL






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Re: Per Diem

Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
 

The Jan., 1953 ORER shows the NYO&W as having 146 cars suitable for
interchange. For an over 400-mile Class One pike, this road must
have had substantial per diem costs. No wonder that they went under
in 1957.

Steve Lucas.

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, tgregmrtn@... wrote:


_ch00ch00@..._ (mailto:ch00ch00@...) writes:




One of the smallest railroads paid the MOST per diem, The Long
Island
Rail Road was a dead end railroad that owned NO interchangeable
cars.

Ed Schleyer

That's not entirely true the Long Island did own a group of hoppers
(300 in
series 5000 to 5299) in class GLD. Certanly not many in numbers
and they did
get transferred to the PRR, but nonetheless they did have revenue
cars.
Greg Martin


.









**************It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find
your travel
deal here.
(http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: RAILMODEL JOURNAL

gnryfan
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Mont Switzer <mhts_switzerm@...> wrote:

Just received notification form RMJ that my unfulfilled subscription
has been"sold" to RAILROAD MODEL CRAFTSMAN.  In my case this will
result in an extension of my existing subscription with RMC.
 
As both an author and subscriber I've got to give RMJ credit for
their very ethical exit from the business.
 
Mont Switzer
Yeah...lots better than what I got from Mainline Modeller when they
went out leaving me hanging. Never did hear from them at all!!
Joe Berger


Re: ADMIN: Re: Re: Freight car distribution

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

Yes, Jack you are correct and those records for all railroads were forwarded to the car accounting offices. Most of the per diem was a paper exchange, but not all of it.
Not sure what you mean by this. All per diem was netted every month between every pair of railroads and money was exchanged. Except for the extremely inprobable event that two railroads had equla numbers of days of the other's cars for a month.

> Then of course there were the privately owned cars that were due their share as well.
Greg Martin
--------------------------------------

Privately owned cars were a very different thing. There was nothing analogous to the per diem settlement. Each railroad paid the owner of each car. For per diem, the critical document was the interchange report. For mileage cars the key accounting source document was the wheel report.


Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478


Re: The Freight Car Distribution Project

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

Posted by: "water.kresse@comcast.net" Coal and Freight Manifest classification yards were separated many times.
--------------------

Never heard of that, except for storage near water transfers. There were yards that were largely one or the other because of natrual traffic flows, but I never heard of such a separation otherwise. Any documentation of an example ?


Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478


Re: The Freight Car Distribution Project

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

I think that there might be several problems with this approach but the biggest problem is that you need to evaluate the numbers for one place in one time period. You can't combine different places. If you do, you are creating an "average" and will end up, by default with the national average.
===============

I don't think that's a problem if location is a key in the data base. Use state as a first approximation to location. Here's an example.

Look at these three state groups. FL+GA+AL+SC, NY+New England, CA+NV+OR+WA. If there are enough observations, approximately randomly distributed over a period of say 20 years, you could look at each of these areas and look at percentages of ownership by distance of the owner from that group of states. That might give us a good feeling for how the distance and equal distribution hypothese compare.

My guess is that to be statistically significant (based on gut feel of many of us, not on precise calculations), we would need maybe 10,000 cars from several hundred phots to limit sources of bias. Publicity photos should be excluded.

Having many years (e.g.10 to 15)seems to me to be an advantage rather than a limitation. That is time to smooth out peaking effects of things like large or small harvests, recessions, etc. But I wouldn't want to go to 30 or 40 years, which might mask long term trends.





Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478


Re: ORER discrepancy

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

Entirely true. At some point the ORER was legally made part of
the tariff structure, thus giving an impetus for reporting to be as
accurate as possible--maybe in that 1912-1913 time frame.
-------------------
The impetus was to have accuracy only on the uo side. It was necessary that any cay that might handle revenue traffic be listed, but not that every car listed be in service, or even exist.



Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478


Re: RAILMODEL JOURNAL

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Mont Switzer wrote:
"Just received a letter advising that my unfulfilled RMJ subescription
has been transferred to RAILMDOEL"

??????


Ben Hom


RAILMODEL JOURNAL

Mont Switzer <mhts_switzerm@...>
 

Just received notification form RMJ that my unfulfilled subscription has been"sold" to RAILROAD MODEL CRAFTSMAN.  In my case this will result in an extension of my existing subscription with RMC.
 
As both an author and subscriber I've got to give RMJ credit for their very ethical exit from the business.
 
Mont Switzer
 
 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


RAILMODEL JOURNAL

Mont Switzer <mhts_switzerm@...>
 

Just received a letter advising that my unfulfilled RMJ subescription has been transferred to RAILMDOEL


DS/SS split 1938 to 1950: Rock Island

laramielarry <ostresh@...>
 

Hi Folks

Steve Hile recently sent me some data that makes our knowledge of the
sheathing (double sheathed, single sheathed, steel) for RI box and auto
cars complete from 1938 to 1950. Al Brown and Brian Ehni also provided
information.

RI____Jan-38____Apr-42____Jan-45____Apr-49____Jul-50
DS____7,564____3,316____3,054____1,327____1,205
SS____13,779____12,747____11,625____9,071____8,259
Steel____1,241____4,625____5,363____7,575____8,560
Unknown____0____0____0____0____0
Total____22,584____20,688____20,042____17,973____18,024

RI____Jan-38____Apr-42____Jan-45____Apr-49____Jul-50
DS____33.5%____16.0%____15.2%____7.4%____6.7%
SS____61.0%____61.6%____58.0%____50.5%____45.8%
Steel____5.5%____22.4%____26.8%____42.1%____47.5%
Unknown____0.0%____0.0%____0.0%____0.0%____0.0%
Total____100.0%____100.0%____100.0%____100.0%____100.0%

Note the sharp drop in DS and associated rise in steel from 1938 to
1942, the wartime hiatus in which the numbers were more or less frozen,
and the post-war resumption of replacement.

Best wishes,
Larry Ostresh
Laramie, Wyoming


Re: Per Diem

al_brown03
 

Cleaner example, a short distance away: the Morristown & Erie didn't
have interchangeable freight cars after the mid-20s. It had
connections at both ends but no bridge traffic that I know of,
because Erie and Lackawanna had numerous direct interchanges nearby.

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.


--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, tgregmrtn@... wrote:


_ch00ch00@..._ (mailto:ch00ch00@...) writes:




One of the smallest railroads paid the MOST per diem, The Long
Island
Rail Road was a dead end railroad that owned NO interchangeable
cars.

Ed Schleyer

That's not entirely true the Long Island did own a group of hoppers
(300 in
series 5000 to 5299) in class GLD. Certanly not many in numbers
and they did
get transferred to the PRR, but nonetheless they did have revenue
cars.
Greg Martin


.









**************It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find
your travel
deal here.
(http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047)




Re: What HO truck(s) do we STMFC'ers want?

Bill Kelly
 

I'd like to add this 50 ton truck to the wish list.
It's good for tank cars built in the thirties.
I don't know the manufacturer, Scullin perhaps.

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/acfx/dax309asw.jpg

Later,
Bill Kelly
____________________________________________________________
Click to help a good cause and make a difference
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The 1956 UP Box Car Data

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Here's the much anticipated results of the 1956 UP train box car composition over Sherman Hill. There were 31 trains. Of these, there were 5 EB "lumber" trains containing 11, 10, 8, 9, and 10 SP box cars for a total of 48 cars. If these were missed, the SP position changes quite a bit. UP, NYC and PRR cars were rather evenly distributed. The 1956 data matches very well with that of 1949 as far as UP, PRR, NYC, and SP is concerned. GN was a surprise and I was pleased to see that NP had reached a level which could support Brock's Fifth Rule of frt cars...although I have not the courage to check each train for at least one NP car. ATSF was apparently upset with their somewhat puny showing and responded by sending 98 SFRD reefers [ MT ] in one train. Perhaps this was due to the Kansas floods...I have not checked on the dates. Practically every RR was represdented. Box cars of special interest were one CV, a few BAR and a MEC. I am most proud of the 2 N&W hoppers [ bless their dirty souls ] plus 2 PRR hoppers, one MKT, 2 Mopac and my favorite, a WAB hopper.

Position RR cars
1. UP: 249
2. PRR: 126
3. NYC: 107
4. SP: 101
4a. SP & TNO: 115
5. GN: 57
6. NP: 43
7. C&O: 41
8. C&NW: 40
8. B&O: 40
9. Milw: 38
10. SR: 32
11. CB&Q: 24
12. ATSF: 23

Mike Brock


ADMIN: Re: Re: Freight car distribution

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Larry Jackman <Ljack70117@...> wrote:

At 6 AM each morning the entire yard was check and recorded on a
special form. Two copies were sent to the accounting department and
two copies to the car department and one filed in the files where
they were recorded.

This was done on the whole RR and was done on The Un Pac and John
Santa Fe.

It is of my opinion that this was done on every RR
in the good old US of A, So at 6 AM every freight car
in the good old US of A was on record.
I know for certain that it was not done on the NYC, MILW, NS or B&M.
The UP and ATSF were rather wealthy railroads, from long haul
revenue, and in the 60's were not known for keeping a sharp eye on
costs.

So they not only needed to be known, they were known.
That it was done does not tell us that it was needed. It sounds like
a want on the part of some official to give the car accounting
department a means for cross checking the data received from
interchange reports and wheel reports. Whether the costs saved by
having that cross reference exceeded the cost of all those yard clerk
hours is an interesting question.


Re: Per Diem

Greg Martin
 

_ch00ch00@comcast.net_ (mailto:ch00ch00@comcast.net) writes:




One of the smallest railroads paid the MOST per diem, The Long Island
Rail Road was a dead end railroad that owned NO interchangeable cars.

Ed Schleyer

That's not entirely true the Long Island did own a group of hoppers (300 in
series 5000 to 5299) in class GLD. Certanly not many in numbers and they did
get transferred to the PRR, but nonetheless they did have revenue cars.
Greg Martin


.









**************It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel
deal here.
(http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047)


Re: ADMIN: Re: Re: Freight car distribution

Robert kirkham
 

It's a bit of a relief to read this e-mail tonight!

I was starting to wonder about the proportions of railway specific freight car books in my collection. Do I have enough PRR, or NKP or ATSF or ..... gee, I wonder how many of you have an over representation of books on the Canadian freight car fleet? Come to think of it, it seems I may need something SP.....

Rob Kirkham (tongue in cheek)


From: Dennis Storzek

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Brock" <brockm@...> wrote:

Actually I said:

"The model that I prefer is a modified Nelson/Gilbert model which
states
that
RRs with "significant interchange" should have from 2 to 2.5 times the
national %."
I'm sure this is the key. [snip]...

But why bother? Data for the average railroad is only going to be good
for someone who freelances, but even then you run into the problem
that if you model the Maumee, what the heck is the Wabash hauling if
all that traffic is on the Maumee? Even if you get what was actually
happening right, you then have to modify it again to take into account
the new player you added.

I personally think that time would be better spent studying the
prototype one is trying to model, identifying the consists of the
trains as best one can from consists, interchange statistics, photos,
movies, whatever is available, noting not only the overall car mix,
but specific instances of heavy concentrations, because those heavy
concentrations aren't random events, they MEAN something, and modeling
them helps to capture the feel of the prototype.

Dennis

114361 - 114380 of 189722