Date   

Re: UP Frt Conductor Book Data...a quick look

Richard Hendrickson
 

Mike Brock wrote:

One thing that should be considered...and perhaps Richard, Tony, and others
have...is that a hopper car was built to be unloaded through the rails...or
turned completely over as at Norfolk and other ports. If you had a site that
required a load of some kind of coal every week or two you likely would not
have the facility to unload it through...and under the rails...so you might
unload it with a crane...or even some poor sods with shovels.... of some
kind. This might be more adapted to a gon than a deeper hopper. Just
speculating of course.
Earth to Mike. Tony and I (and others) have been making this point for
years. Aside from the fact that coal wasn't widely used as a fuel in the
western U.S., hardly any users had elevated unloading facilities; that's
why the western RRs largely favored GS gondolas rather than hopper cars for
bulk mineral loads. In the east as well as the west, coal was often
shipped in gondolas to recipients who had no elevated trestles (that's why
N&W, Clinchfield, C&O, L&N, etc. had all those gondolas) and was unloaded
with clamshell buckets (which were very hard on the cars, of course) or,
yes, with hand shovels powered by "Norwegian steam." There were very few
places in the west where cross-hopper cars could be conveniently unloaded.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: UP Frt Conductor Book Data...a quick look

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

I wrote:

I have not dertimined destination completely. LA-4 and SP-1 are
mentioned frequently, as are numbers 2,3,5, & 6. The ore string of cars is
going to Van 6. These destinations are not stations since 3 would be that
for Omaha and the referenced train is westbound.
And Jeff Aley responds with:

Espee train numbers???
Well, not LA-4...since the UP went to LA on its own...well sort of. Sounds
like SP-1 is/was. Don't know what the other numbers stood for.

I wrote:

Here's a list of coal or coke carrying cars included in trains I've
checked...about half of the 35 listed: Loads are coal unless indicated.

1. Pennsy gon G-29 359601
2. B&O gon 261628
3. MP gon 72363
4. Lackawanna gon 66057
5. NYC gon 631040 coke
6. Frisco hopper 86496 coke
7. MKT gon 41492
8. N&W gon 91097
9. N&W gon 100350 pitch
10. Frisco gon 84100
11. MP gon 66850
12. MP hopper 59413
13. L&N hopper 65073
14. Lehigh Valley hopper 24613
15. Q ballast hopper 221662
16. Q comp gon 166948
17. NYC gon 711577
18. Q ballast hopper 221725
19. KCS hopper 29107
Jeff answers with:

Twelve of the 19 cars were gons, including some from eastern
roads. I find this surprising even though I've been known to chant the
Henrickson mantra of the West: "more gons than hoppers...more gons than
hoppers".
I respond:
One thing that should be considered...and perhaps Richard, Tony, and others
have...is that a hopper car was built to be unloaded through the rails...or
turned completely over as at Norfolk and other ports. If you had a site that
required a load of some kind of coal every week or two you likely would not
have the facility to unload it through...and under the rails...so you might
unload it with a crane...or even some poor sods with shovels.... of some
kind. This might be more adapted to a gon than a deeper hopper. Just
speculating of course.

Any helium cars? You've got 7 hoppers, and we all know that
Richard claims there were more helium cars than hoppers (in the West, at
least).
I'll be checking on helium loads soon....after checking on wine loads and,
perhaps, sampling some myself...California varieties of course...or those
from Oregon if I could find them down here.

Mike Brock


Prototype Info

ibs4421@...
 

Fellers,
Since I do not currently have a layout for lack of suitable space, I am doing what I can in the meantime, i.e.: trying to assemble research, and maybe build a few kits. My goal this year is to get some L&N resin caboose kits assembled.
If any of you happen to come up with some good prototype info on the L&N, NC&StL, or TC please give me a shout, either here or off-line. I am always looking for good resources to help me in my quest of modeling these RR's prototypically, and I am still very much a beginner as I have said before.
I just got Vollrath's list of photo's (steam locos) for the L&N and NC&StL, and in the list he mentions that he has an extensive freight car photo list, 40+ pages. Have any of you ordered freight car photo's from him before. TIA.

Warren Dickinson


Re: UP Frt Conductor Book Data

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

the book contains data on 35 UP trains between Laramie and Rawlins
[ to the west ], WY, over about a month and a half...Mar ...to ...
April ... 1949.
Very interesting to see so many off-line hoppers at that time. It
makes me wonder if UP's receipt of a large order of 70 ton hoppers
(the H-70-1 class) in 1949 had the effect of sending most of those
hoppers back to their owners.... Certainly pictures of coal trains
in the 1950's show many H-70-1's and not much else.

Timothy O'Connor <timoconnor@mediaone.net>
Marlborough, Massachusetts


Re: random questions

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

Have you been doing this with the DA (delrin) grabs, or with
styrene grabs?
Styrene. I can't imagine trying it with Delrin (c) grabs.

Timothy O'Connor <timoconnor@mediaone.net>
Marlborough, Massachusetts


Re: random questions

Ted Culotta <ted@...>
 

Richard Stallworth asked:

"Is there a problem in getting models from Sunshine Models? I've
heard it mentioned on other lists that it takes a very loonnggg time
to receive models or catalogs from this company."

Ben Hom replied:

"I'm in agreement with John - I've never had any problems with getting
kits from Martin. Your best bet is to order from him direct."

Without trying to beat this topic to death (and that's happened before on
the FCL) I would like to add one comment. While Sunshine and F&C (not
Westerfield- Al's very speedy!) may sometimes take up to 3 months to fill
orders, thus angering some consumers, think of the alternative - a world
with many more homogenous freight car models. So, rather than getting
angry, pull one of those other unbuilt kits off the shelf and build it, or
if you're out of kits, make patterns for some resin parts that the rest of
us can use.

Suggested parts:
-- Underframe (Duryea) and doors for B&M's 1923 ARA box cars
-- Underframe for B&O's Duryea 1923 box cars
-- Ends for MDT (and sibling) steel reefers
-- Fixed "Pressed Steel" ends for a GTW 52'6" War Emergency gon
-- Drop "Pressed Steel" ends for a RI 52'6" War Emergency gon
-- Sides for an ART R-40-10 clone
-- Ends (rectangular panel) to make the B&O 40' box cars of the 40's (not
sure if it's that simple - did they have Duryea underframes?)
-- Duryea underframe and straps for the end side panels (plus grabs to
replace the ladders) to make a CNJ 52'6" War Emergency gon
-- Parts to make USRA 50-ton gon rebuilds (I haven't spent too much time
thinking about these - they may be simple kitbashes)
-- Tank car underframes and parts
-- sides for GN plywood box cars (orange/green)
-- sides for N&W steel box cars built in late 30's and 40's

Perhaps we can start another thread with users' kitbash parts wish lists.
This list does have the ability to tabulate polls, so once we have a list we
can poll it and send the results to Al, Martin, Steve and Sylvan.

Ted Culotta


Re: UP Frt Conductor Book Data...a quick look

Richard Hendrickson
 

Jeff Aley writes, about Mike Brock's UP consist data:

Twelve of the 19 cars were gons, including some from eastern
roads. I find this surprising even though I've been known to chant the
Henrickson mantra of the West: "more gons than hoppers...more gons than
hoppers".

Any helium cars? You've got 7 hoppers, and we all know that
Richard claims there were more helium cars than hoppers (in the West, at
least).
I never claimed this was true "in the west," certainly not on Sherman Hill
(which, as we've previously established, is only marginally in the real
west), only in the Los Angeles area. And if you're going to mis-quote me,
at least spell my name right.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: random questions

Jeff Aley - GCD PE <jaley@...>
 

On Mar 1, 3:48pm, Tim O'Connor wrote:
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: random questions
You can greatly improve the appearance by cutting off the
plastic rod, and coring the brackets for .008 wire. This is kinda
tedious but not as hard as it may sound. They're also much stronger
than the originals when you do this.
Tim,

Have you been doing this with the DA (delrin) grabs, or with
styrene grabs? I couldn't keep a good enough grip on the DA grabs to
accomplish this (after losing 4 or 5, I gave up!). Any tricks you can
offer would be most welcome.

Regards,

-Jeff

P.S. I'm using an Optivisor and use high-quality needle point tweezers
that I "borrowed" from work.

--
Jeff Aley, Development Engineer jaley@pcocd2.intel.com
Graphics Components Division
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533


pulpwood loads

John Nehrich <nehrij@...>
 

At the RPI club, we need a bunch of pulpwood cars. We have a number of MDC
gons lettered for C&O (the prototype of the kit) and a few kitbashed to N&W
and Rutland (different ends). We just discovered that Chooch makes a cast
resin pulpwood load for 40 foot gons, with wood stuck upright in the ends to
act as a bulkhead. So we figured these would be a quick way to get a bunch
even as we make some cars with individually cut twigs.
First of all, the Chooch loads are a touch too big to fit in the MDC
gon. They fit in the Ertl with a little room to spare, which looks a little
odd, but at least they are in there. They also represent 8 foot logs, not
four foot stacked side by side.
They are very heavy for a car - a little work with a Dremel to hollow
them out might work without too much trouble.
We've hit them with a dark brown wash and that really helped, as it
created dark areas between the logs, making them look separate. And we are
trying to add a single layer of just enough on the top to give a feeling of
natural variation, and yet not have them look so different from the rest of
the ends that they are a distraction. Will let you know how they turn out,
but it looks promising.
- John


Re: random questions

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

The DA grabs are indeed 22" (or 24") ... too long for most uses.
The best replacements are Kadee's of course, but you have to buy
a whole boxcar to get them. ;o( Otherwise Red Caboose and
Intermountain and Branchline and Proto2000 all make bracket
grabs. You can greatly improve the appearance by cutting off the
plastic rod, and coring the brackets for .008 wire. This is kinda
tedious but not as hard as it may sound. They're also much stronger
than the originals when you do this.

----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff Aley - GCD PE <jaley@pcocd2.intel.com>

Aren't the DA bracket grabs too long for most applications?


Re: running boards

John Nehrich <nehrij@...>
 

I like the detail on the Tichy boards, but we got a whole bunch which were
seriously twisted. I'm not sure this is common to them in general, or we
just lucked out. - John


Re: random questions

Jeff Aley - GCD PE <jaley@...>
 

On Mar 1, 8:25pm, bhom3@home.com wrote:
Subject: [STMFC] Re: random questions
Grab Irons: I prefer Westerfield's wire grabs - they're brass, which
I feel is easier to work with, especially when you have to file them
flush with the inside of an open car. Your choices for bracket type
grabs are much more limited, with the Details Associates part being
pretty much the only game in town.
Aren't the DA bracket grabs too long for most applications? I tried
shortening them (cut off the grab; leave the bracket; replace grab with
wire), but my modeling skills are apparently insufficient.
Result: I use Red Caboose bracket grabs. (I should try replacing the grab
part of *those* with wire; perhaps it's easier since they're styrene).

Regards,

-Jeff

--
Jeff Aley, Development Engineer jaley@pcocd2.intel.com
Graphics Components Division
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533


Re: random questions

bhom3@...
 

Richard Stallworth asked:

"Is there a problem in getting models from Sunshine Models? I've
heard it mentioned on other lists that it takes a very loonnggg time
to receive models or catalogs from this company."

I'm in agreement with John - I've never had any problems with getting
kits from Martin. Your best bet is to order from him direct.


"Is there a particular detail parts company that is better at
building steam-era super detail parts? More variety?"

When it comes to detail parts, there isn't a "one-stop" vendor that
has everything, which isn't necessarily a bad thing given the variety
of the prototype. Here are some tips on some of the more common
parts (opinions expressed are my own and may not represent those of
the other members of the list):

Grab Irons: I prefer Westerfield's wire grabs - they're brass, which
I feel is easier to work with, especially when you have to file them
flush with the inside of an open car. Your choices for bracket type
grabs are much more limited, with the Details Associates part being
pretty much the only game in town.

Stirrup Steps: A-Line steps whever prototypically appropriate - the
wire steps hold up better under layout conditions than the Details
Associates derlin steps; however, Details Associates makes a greater
variety of types.

Brake Details: Tichy makes very nice K and AB brake sets which blow
away the previous standard, the old Cal-Scale sets.

Brake Wheels: For later brake wheels, Kadee offers the same ones on
their PS-1's spearately, though without housings. Details Associates
offers a variety of brake wheels with housings. Precision Scale
makes a very nice Ajax brakewheel (no housing).

Running Boards: Tichy offers the nice injection molded wooden
running board from their USRA SS Boxcar kit if you don't want to
build one from wood or styrene, although the lateral running boards
are for the USRA car's more narrow width and run parallel to the
ends. For metal running boards, etched metal is the way to go, with
Plano Model Products making a good variety of designs. Just remember
to use a flexible adhesive such as R/C 50 or Weldbond or (in the
immortal words of Tim O'Connor) SPROING!!

Various manufacturers also offer kit components separately -
(underframes from Red Caboose, Intermountain, and Central Valley, for
example), and Al Westerfield offers many of his kit castings as
separate parts. He will also run specific parts from his kits as
needed (I've got some eight panel USRA Steel Boxcar sides for a PRR
Class ARA boxcar kitbash that I still need to finish) - contact him
for specific terms and prices.

Hope this gives you a running start!


Ben Hom


Re: UP Frt Conductor Book Data...a quick look

n40015@...
 

Mike.... this is a super find! And I'm sure you're as suprised to find the
great range of cars in the consists as anyone. I'd like to make a trade with
you. If you share the tank car data with me, I'll swap what info I can
uncover regarding the L&N rolling stock. :-) Charlie

Charles Dean
Shelbyville, Ky.

In a message dated 3/1/1 11:51:18 AM, brockm@brevard.net writes:

<< A quick look at the UP Freight conductor's book that I recently
acquired...thanks to Jeff Aley bringing it to my attention...shows some
interesting stuff. First, the book contains data on 35 UP trains between
Laramie and Rawlins [ to the west ], WY, over about a month and a half...Mar
6 to April 22, 1949.

As I have always maintained, every frt car...or one of its class...crossed
Sherman Hill at least once in its life. This book seems to prove that out.
The variety of RRs is impressive...not unexpected for a trunk line like UP in
Wyoming I suppose.

One train of particular interest is one carrying only ore. I cannot actually
tell if the ore carrying cars are in only one train or part of
another...given the structure of the book. Anyhow, the ore carrying cars are
all box cars. Perhaps most surprising is that none are UP. Roads included are
SLSF, NH [ NH?], IC, NYC, CN, NP, L&N, Milw, MP, ATSF, Q, RI, NKP, KCS, CNW,
SAL, and Sou and that's from a string of only 26 cars.

I have not dertimined destination completely. LA-4 and SP-1 are mentioned
frequently, as are numbers 2,3,5, & 6. The ore string of cars is going to Van
6. These destinations are not stations since 3 would be that for Omaha and
the referenced train is westbound.

Commodities are listed fairly well. For instance there are loads of wine,
oil, and gasoline and associated tank cars. One strange load is milk in ATSF
6970...a box car.

Naturally I had to check for the elusive N&W hopper....I can feel the crowd
grow tense, sudden silence in anticipation.

Here's a list of coal or coke carrying cars included in trains I've
checked...about half of the 35 listed: Loads are coal unless indicated.

1. Pennsy gon G-29 359601
2. B&O gon 261628
3. MP gon 72363
4. Lackawanna gon 66057
5. NYC gon 631040 coke
6. Frisco hopper 86496 coke
7. MKT gon 41492

***** WARNING WARNING WARNING
8. N&W gon 91097
9. N&W gon 100350 pitch

Does this qualify me to win the cash prize...or bounty...offered [ or should
be offered ] by certain westcoast frt car aficionados ? Well, technically,
no. These are not hoppers. But, they were carrying coal. Now, if I can just
figure out what destination 3 is.

10. Frisco gon 84100
11. MP gon 66850
12. MP hopper 59413
13. L&N hopper 65073
14. Lehigh Valley hopper 24613
15. Q ballast hopper 221662
16. Q comp gon 166948
17. NYC gon 711577
18. Q ballast hopper 221725
19. KCS hopper 29107

There were a few UP cars also listed as carrying coal. Note that these are
all westbound except for NYC 711577. Also I expect to uncover empties coming
back east. BTW, seldom are more than 2 coal carrying cars in the same train.

Another perhaps oddity is a train of empties westbound consisting entirely of
UP cars and Sinclair tank cars. Sinclair was/is about 7 miles east of
Rawlins. I assume the train probably dropped the 60 or so Sinclair cars
there.

Mike Brock...more to come >>


Re: random questions

John Nehrich <nehrij@...>
 

Richard - I've never heard of any problem of getting models from Sunshine.
In general with cast resin there is not much duplication of effort, so there
is often just one source (or no source).
I have a date of 1944 when "other than wood" (meaning steel, but I guess
they kept the door open for aluminum) for running boards being required on
new cars. Also 1932 when when they first starting accepting non-wood
running boards on a case by case basis. You might want to check out our
timeline at:
http://www.union.rpi.edu/railroad/Time-line.html

- John

----- Original Message -----
From: <ThisIsR@aol.com>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2001 12:56 PM
Subject: [STMFC] random questions


Good afternoon:
Is there a problem in getting models from Sunshine Models? I've
heard
it mentioned on other lists that it takes a very loonnggg time to receive
models or
catalogs from this company.
Is there a particular detail parts company that is better at building
steam-era
super detail parts? More variety?
At what point did carbuilders and railroads switch from wooden
roofwalks
to
steel roofwalks?
Thank you for your time!
Richard Stallworth

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
STMFC-unsubscribe@egroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


Re: UP Frt Conductor Book Data...a quick look

Jeff Aley - GCD PE <jaley@...>
 

On Mar 1, 11:48am, Mike Brock wrote:
Subject: [STMFC] UP Frt Conductor Book Data...a quick look
I have not dertimined destination completely. LA-4 and SP-1 are
mentioned frequently, as are numbers 2,3,5, & 6. The ore string of cars is
going to Van 6. These destinations are not stations since 3 would be that
for Omaha and the referenced train is westbound.

Espee train numbers???

Here's a list of coal or coke carrying cars included in trains I've
checked...about half of the 35 listed: Loads are coal unless indicated.

1. Pennsy gon G-29 359601
2. B&O gon 261628
3. MP gon 72363
4. Lackawanna gon 66057
5. NYC gon 631040 coke
6. Frisco hopper 86496 coke
7. MKT gon 41492
8. N&W gon 91097
9. N&W gon 100350 pitch
10. Frisco gon 84100
11. MP gon 66850
12. MP hopper 59413
13. L&N hopper 65073
14. Lehigh Valley hopper 24613
15. Q ballast hopper 221662
16. Q comp gon 166948
17. NYC gon 711577
18. Q ballast hopper 221725
19. KCS hopper 29107

Twelve of the 19 cars were gons, including some from eastern
roads. I find this surprising even though I've been known to chant the
Henrickson mantra of the West: "more gons than hoppers...more gons than
hoppers".

Any helium cars? You've got 7 hoppers, and we all know that
Richard claims there were more helium cars than hoppers (in the West, at
least).


Another perhaps oddity is a train of empties westbound consisting
entirely of UP cars and Sinclair tank cars. Sinclair was/is about 7 miles
east of Rawlins. I assume the train probably dropped the 60 or so Sinclair
cars there.

Yep. This correlates pretty well with a Frt. Conductor's Train Book that
I have. Mine's from ca. 1960 and most of the trains are locals to
Sinclair. Almost all of the cars are tanks, with a significant portion UP
(for on-line fuel, I suppose).

Regards,

-Jeff

--
Jeff Aley, Development Engineer jaley@pcocd2.intel.com
Graphics Components Division
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533


UP Frt Conductor Book Data...a quick look

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

A quick look at the UP Freight conductor's book that I recently acquired...thanks to Jeff Aley bringing it to my attention...shows some interesting stuff. First, the book contains data on 35 UP trains between Laramie and Rawlins [ to the west ], WY, over about a month and a half...Mar 6 to April 22, 1949.

As I have always maintained, every frt car...or one of its class...crossed Sherman Hill at least once in its life. This book seems to prove that out. The variety of RRs is impressive...not unexpected for a trunk line like UP in Wyoming I suppose.

One train of particular interest is one carrying only ore. I cannot actually tell if the ore carrying cars are in only one train or part of another...given the structure of the book. Anyhow, the ore carrying cars are all box cars. Perhaps most surprising is that none are UP. Roads included are SLSF, NH [ NH?], IC, NYC, CN, NP, L&N, Milw, MP, ATSF, Q, RI, NKP, KCS, CNW, SAL, and Sou and that's from a string of only 26 cars.

I have not dertimined destination completely. LA-4 and SP-1 are mentioned frequently, as are numbers 2,3,5, & 6. The ore string of cars is going to Van 6. These destinations are not stations since 3 would be that for Omaha and the referenced train is westbound.

Commodities are listed fairly well. For instance there are loads of wine, oil, and gasoline and associated tank cars. One strange load is milk in ATSF 6970...a box car.

Naturally I had to check for the elusive N&W hopper....I can feel the crowd grow tense, sudden silence in anticipation.

Here's a list of coal or coke carrying cars included in trains I've checked...about half of the 35 listed: Loads are coal unless indicated.

1. Pennsy gon G-29 359601
2. B&O gon 261628
3. MP gon 72363
4. Lackawanna gon 66057
5. NYC gon 631040 coke
6. Frisco hopper 86496 coke
7. MKT gon 41492

***** WARNING WARNING WARNING
8. N&W gon 91097
9. N&W gon 100350 pitch

Does this qualify me to win the cash prize...or bounty...offered [ or should be offered ] by certain westcoast frt car aficionados ? Well, technically, no. These are not hoppers. But, they were carrying coal. Now, if I can just figure out what destination 3 is.

10. Frisco gon 84100
11. MP gon 66850
12. MP hopper 59413
13. L&N hopper 65073
14. Lehigh Valley hopper 24613
15. Q ballast hopper 221662
16. Q comp gon 166948
17. NYC gon 711577
18. Q ballast hopper 221725
19. KCS hopper 29107

There were a few UP cars also listed as carrying coal. Note that these are all westbound except for NYC 711577. Also I expect to uncover empties coming back east. BTW, seldom are more than 2 coal carrying cars in the same train.

Another perhaps oddity is a train of empties westbound consisting entirely of UP cars and Sinclair tank cars. Sinclair was/is about 7 miles east of Rawlins. I assume the train probably dropped the 60 or so Sinclair cars there.

Mike Brock...more to come


random questions

ThisIsR@...
 

Good afternoon:
Is there a problem in getting models from Sunshine Models? I've heard
it mentioned on other lists that it takes a very loonnggg time to receive
models or
catalogs from this company.
Is there a particular detail parts company that is better at building
steam-era
super detail parts? More variety?
At what point did carbuilders and railroads switch from wooden roofwalks
to
steel roofwalks?
Thank you for your time!
Richard Stallworth


Re: PRR turtleback cars

Benjamin Hom <bhom3@...>
 

Richard Stallworth asked:

"I have been told that PRR x31f(?) class boxcars-the turtlebacks never left
home rails. Is this true?"

No (by the way, X31f is the correct class). Here's another piece of
photographic evidence:

PRR 81417 (Ft. Worth, TX, 6/17/1962, Dick Kuelbs photo, RMJ Mar 95, p 23)

These cars also made their way to several second-hand owners in the 1960s as
well:

T-SE 324 (Craig Bossler photo, RMJ Mar 95, p 16)
AD&N 1805 (Richard Burg collection, RMJ Mar 95, p 23)


Ben Hom


Re: PRR turtleback cars

Dave & Libby Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

What happened to them after the war? Thank you.
Released to general service: Per a conductors book in my posession, on
3/16/1948, PRR 81840 carried a load of common nails over Sherman Hill on
it's way to Portland Ore.

Dave Nelson

186441 - 186460 of 187213