Date   

Re: Early train length laws

water.kresse@...
 

Gary,

I agree with you again. Apparently they had hearing in Washington, DC, May 1916, which the N&W folks participated in. That would be as the War in Europe was just unfolding and the US was being requested to supply our allies with war materials.

It is the 50-car limit being proposed to Virginia State General Assembly was exactly half of the railroad management stated 100-car yard and passing siding track length improvements being reported on in their annual reports at the time.

Al

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "gary laakso" <vasa0vasa@earthlink.net>
Its very odd to have a train length provision in a state constitution and its not something the usual politically connected interests want. The question is then "who benefits" and i don't think its the local coupler sales guy. Smell test remains a good test. My money says a couple of union members were on the drafting committee and they did some trades to get support for the provision. The post convention rationalizations by politicians tend to be camouflage.
Does the law apply to Mike Brock's layout?

gary laakso
south of Mike Brock
vasa0vasa@earthlink.net

----- Original Message -----
From: George A. Walls
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 9/17/2008 12:44:55 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Early train length laws

This law was put in place by the people of AZ when developing the AZ
State Constitution in 1912 and voted on by the people of AZ. I've not
seen any reference to union involment. Santa Fe and SP railroads sued
the state of AZ in 1924 to get it overturned. Didn't work. Law was
set aside in 1942 because of WW2 and then later thrown out by Federal
Supreme Court in 1945, as was mentioned earlier. Some information on
this subject appears in David Myrick's book " Railroads of Arizona,
Vol 4, pg 192-194"

Several states have their own agencies that oversee railroad
operations in their states and have been sucessful in maintaining
those laws above what union or railroad wants.

George A Walls

Gary,

Old timer guidance and historical recollections are great "original
sources" in my book. If it was not for "old timer sargents" steering
us straight we wouldn't have servived in the war zones either.

The final briefs are rather pure: statistically proving additional
safety risks vs. impeding free trade across the states.

Al Kresse

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "gary laakso" <vasa0vasa@...>
I spent 20 years in the ESPEE legal department and everyone there,
including the olde timers when i was a pup, told me it was union
lobbying for more work not coupler strength that was involved. If you
look at class 1 railroad employment and the timing of the laws, there
is a striking (no pun intended) correlation. There ought to be some
mention of the views of the parties in the Supreme Court case and the
briefs of the parties.

gary laakso
south of Mike Brock
vasa0vasa@...

----- Original Message -----
From:
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 9/17/2008 10:36:30 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Early train length laws

Gary,

First, I don't doubt your very logical conclusion. Do you have any
pre-WWI "original source" documentation to back that up? . . . or
even a general book on railroad history during those times? Longer
trains would mean less train crews per ton moved. Looking at the
State of Virginia Laws and Codes on the internet I find that the
ministers were more influential in trying to ban movements of
trains "not completely filled" with interstate commerce on Sundays
(1908), or banning train crews from not being brought home before
Sunday services (1890s), or prohibiting sales of liquor on trains, or
even prohibiting passenger trains to pull reefers . . . because they
might carry German-style beer from Cincinnatti down to Newport News
(1890s). Plus, there were the Jim Crow laws.

Us Northerners up here in Michigan (born in Ashland, Kentucky)
aren't suppose to say anything about Southern Culture without
references to back it up.

Thanks,

Al Kresse

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "gary laakso" <vasa0vasa@...>
The state laws had much more to do wth union politics then coupler
strength. The laws were desiged to maximize union employment and or
overtime. The unions were pushing for federal laws to do the same
thing.

gary laakso
south of Mike Brock
vasa0vasa@...

----- Original Message -----
From:
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 9/17/2008 9:32:35 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Early train length laws

Thanks for finding support material relative to the 1912 Arizona 70-
car freight train length limit. Rationale appears to be to minimize
coupler failures resulting from higher slack-loads from longer trains?

My question is why would this affect C&O, N&W, and Virginian coal
traffic between Kentucky, Ohio, WV, and Virginia . . . and Tidewater?
Were other states considering maximum train length laws at the same
time? Ohio seemed to be progressive in mandating 24-ft, 8-wheeled
cabooses on interchange service circa 1914. it seems that these
railroads at that time had enough problems just finding loco power to
pull loaded coal trains up their grades . . much less making trains
longer than 70-cars (even though they were going towards 100-car
tracks in their coal classification yard improvements in the early
20s).

Al Kresse

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "James F. Brewer" <jfbrewer@...>
I believe this law was the basis for litigation that led to a
Supreme Court decision declaring it to be a violation of the
Interstate Commerce Act and therefore, unconstitutional.

Jim Brewer
Glenwood MD

----- Original Message -----
From: al_brown03
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2008 5:12 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Early train length laws

-- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "al.kresse" <water.kresse@> wrote:

Folks,

Maybe this a new subject?

Do we have any information on State Legist's attempting to
mandate
maximum number of freight cars allowed per train?
Yes. Arizona had a law limiting freight trains to 70 cars and
passenger trains to 14; in the forties the SP tested it, and SP
won.
The law dated to 1912; I don't know how consistently it'd been
enforced.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0325_0761_ZO.h
tml

(Found this by googling "train length law". If the link wraps, you
may need to type in the last few characters.)

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.


Andrew Dow's great N&W Coal Car book refers to that being a
driving
reason for building 120-ton and 90-ton "Battleship Gons" in the
late teens and early twenties. Do we have copies of specific
proposed rules?

Were there Federal proposes also?

Al Kresse















Re: Early train length laws

gary laakso
 

Its very odd to have a train length provision in a state constitution and its not something the usual politically connected interests want. The question is then "who benefits" and i don't think its the local coupler sales guy. Smell test remains a good test. My money says a couple of union members were on the drafting committee and they did some trades to get support for the provision. The post convention rationalizations by politicians tend to be camouflage.
Does the law apply to Mike Brock's layout?

gary laakso
south of Mike Brock
vasa0vasa@earthlink.net

----- Original Message -----
From: George A. Walls
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 9/17/2008 12:44:55 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Early train length laws


This law was put in place by the people of AZ when developing the AZ
State Constitution in 1912 and voted on by the people of AZ. I've not
seen any reference to union involment. Santa Fe and SP railroads sued
the state of AZ in 1924 to get it overturned. Didn't work. Law was
set aside in 1942 because of WW2 and then later thrown out by Federal
Supreme Court in 1945, as was mentioned earlier. Some information on
this subject appears in David Myrick's book " Railroads of Arizona,
Vol 4, pg 192-194"

Several states have their own agencies that oversee railroad
operations in their states and have been sucessful in maintaining
those laws above what union or railroad wants.

George A Walls

Gary,

Old timer guidance and historical recollections are great "original
sources" in my book. If it was not for "old timer sargents" steering
us straight we wouldn't have servived in the war zones either.

The final briefs are rather pure: statistically proving additional
safety risks vs. impeding free trade across the states.

Al Kresse

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "gary laakso" <vasa0vasa@...>
I spent 20 years in the ESPEE legal department and everyone there,
including the olde timers when i was a pup, told me it was union
lobbying for more work not coupler strength that was involved. If you
look at class 1 railroad employment and the timing of the laws, there
is a striking (no pun intended) correlation. There ought to be some
mention of the views of the parties in the Supreme Court case and the
briefs of the parties.

gary laakso
south of Mike Brock
vasa0vasa@...

----- Original Message -----
From:
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 9/17/2008 10:36:30 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Early train length laws

Gary,

First, I don't doubt your very logical conclusion. Do you have any
pre-WWI "original source" documentation to back that up? . . . or
even a general book on railroad history during those times? Longer
trains would mean less train crews per ton moved. Looking at the
State of Virginia Laws and Codes on the internet I find that the
ministers were more influential in trying to ban movements of
trains "not completely filled" with interstate commerce on Sundays
(1908), or banning train crews from not being brought home before
Sunday services (1890s), or prohibiting sales of liquor on trains, or
even prohibiting passenger trains to pull reefers . . . because they
might carry German-style beer from Cincinnatti down to Newport News
(1890s). Plus, there were the Jim Crow laws.

Us Northerners up here in Michigan (born in Ashland, Kentucky)
aren't suppose to say anything about Southern Culture without
references to back it up.

Thanks,

Al Kresse

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "gary laakso" <vasa0vasa@...>
The state laws had much more to do wth union politics then coupler
strength. The laws were desiged to maximize union employment and or
overtime. The unions were pushing for federal laws to do the same
thing.

gary laakso
south of Mike Brock
vasa0vasa@...

----- Original Message -----
From:
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 9/17/2008 9:32:35 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Early train length laws

Thanks for finding support material relative to the 1912 Arizona 70-
car freight train length limit. Rationale appears to be to minimize
coupler failures resulting from higher slack-loads from longer trains?

My question is why would this affect C&O, N&W, and Virginian coal
traffic between Kentucky, Ohio, WV, and Virginia . . . and Tidewater?
Were other states considering maximum train length laws at the same
time? Ohio seemed to be progressive in mandating 24-ft, 8-wheeled
cabooses on interchange service circa 1914. it seems that these
railroads at that time had enough problems just finding loco power to
pull loaded coal trains up their grades . . much less making trains
longer than 70-cars (even though they were going towards 100-car
tracks in their coal classification yard improvements in the early
20s).

Al Kresse

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "James F. Brewer" <jfbrewer@...>
I believe this law was the basis for litigation that led to a
Supreme Court decision declaring it to be a violation of the
Interstate Commerce Act and therefore, unconstitutional.

Jim Brewer
Glenwood MD

----- Original Message -----
From: al_brown03
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2008 5:12 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Early train length laws

-- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "al.kresse" <water.kresse@> wrote:

Folks,

Maybe this a new subject?

Do we have any information on State Legist's attempting to
mandate
maximum number of freight cars allowed per train?
Yes. Arizona had a law limiting freight trains to 70 cars and
passenger trains to 14; in the forties the SP tested it, and SP
won.
The law dated to 1912; I don't know how consistently it'd been
enforced.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0325_0761_ZO.h
tml

(Found this by googling "train length law". If the link wraps, you
may need to type in the last few characters.)

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.


Andrew Dow's great N&W Coal Car book refers to that being a
driving
reason for building 120-ton and 90-ton "Battleship Gons" in the
late teens and early twenties. Do we have copies of specific
proposed rules?

Were there Federal proposes also?

Al Kresse















Re: Early train length laws

ATSF1226
 

This law was put in place by the people of AZ when developing the AZ
State Constitution in 1912 and voted on by the people of AZ. I've not
seen any reference to union involment. Santa Fe and SP railroads sued
the state of AZ in 1924 to get it overturned. Didn't work. Law was
set aside in 1942 because of WW2 and then later thrown out by Federal
Supreme Court in 1945, as was mentioned earlier. Some information on
this subject appears in David Myrick's book " Railroads of Arizona,
Vol 4, pg 192-194"

Several states have their own agencies that oversee railroad
operations in their states and have been sucessful in maintaining
those laws above what union or railroad wants.

George A Walls



Gary,

Old timer guidance and historical recollections are great "original
sources" in my book. If it was not for "old timer sargents" steering
us straight we wouldn't have servived in the war zones either.

The final briefs are rather pure: statistically proving additional
safety risks vs. impeding free trade across the states.

Al Kresse

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "gary laakso" <vasa0vasa@...>
I spent 20 years in the ESPEE legal department and everyone there,
including the olde timers when i was a pup, told me it was union
lobbying for more work not coupler strength that was involved. If you
look at class 1 railroad employment and the timing of the laws, there
is a striking (no pun intended) correlation. There ought to be some
mention of the views of the parties in the Supreme Court case and the
briefs of the parties.

gary laakso
south of Mike Brock
vasa0vasa@...

----- Original Message -----
From:
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 9/17/2008 10:36:30 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Early train length laws

Gary,

First, I don't doubt your very logical conclusion. Do you have any
pre-WWI "original source" documentation to back that up? . . . or
even a general book on railroad history during those times? Longer
trains would mean less train crews per ton moved. Looking at the
State of Virginia Laws and Codes on the internet I find that the
ministers were more influential in trying to ban movements of
trains "not completely filled" with interstate commerce on Sundays
(1908), or banning train crews from not being brought home before
Sunday services (1890s), or prohibiting sales of liquor on trains, or
even prohibiting passenger trains to pull reefers . . . because they
might carry German-style beer from Cincinnatti down to Newport News
(1890s). Plus, there were the Jim Crow laws.

Us Northerners up here in Michigan (born in Ashland, Kentucky)
aren't suppose to say anything about Southern Culture without
references to back it up.

Thanks,

Al Kresse

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "gary laakso" <vasa0vasa@...>
The state laws had much more to do wth union politics then coupler
strength. The laws were desiged to maximize union employment and or
overtime. The unions were pushing for federal laws to do the same
thing.

gary laakso
south of Mike Brock
vasa0vasa@...

----- Original Message -----
From:
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 9/17/2008 9:32:35 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Early train length laws

Thanks for finding support material relative to the 1912 Arizona 70-
car freight train length limit. Rationale appears to be to minimize
coupler failures resulting from higher slack-loads from longer trains?

My question is why would this affect C&O, N&W, and Virginian coal
traffic between Kentucky, Ohio, WV, and Virginia . . . and Tidewater?
Were other states considering maximum train length laws at the same
time? Ohio seemed to be progressive in mandating 24-ft, 8-wheeled
cabooses on interchange service circa 1914. it seems that these
railroads at that time had enough problems just finding loco power to
pull loaded coal trains up their grades . . much less making trains
longer than 70-cars (even though they were going towards 100-car
tracks in their coal classification yard improvements in the early
20s).

Al Kresse

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "James F. Brewer" <jfbrewer@...>
I believe this law was the basis for litigation that led to a
Supreme Court decision declaring it to be a violation of the
Interstate Commerce Act and therefore, unconstitutional.

Jim Brewer
Glenwood MD

----- Original Message -----
From: al_brown03
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2008 5:12 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Early train length laws

-- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "al.kresse" <water.kresse@> wrote:

Folks,

Maybe this a new subject?

Do we have any information on State Legist's attempting to
mandate
maximum number of freight cars allowed per train?
Yes. Arizona had a law limiting freight trains to 70 cars and
passenger trains to 14; in the forties the SP tested it, and SP
won.
The law dated to 1912; I don't know how consistently it'd been
enforced.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0325_0761_ZO.h
tml

(Found this by googling "train length law". If the link wraps, you
may need to type in the last few characters.)

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.


Andrew Dow's great N&W Coal Car book refers to that being a
driving
reason for building 120-ton and 90-ton "Battleship Gons" in the
late teens and early twenties. Do we have copies of specific
proposed rules?

Were there Federal proposes also?

Al Kresse
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Early train length laws

water.kresse@...
 

Gary,

Old timer guidance and historical recollections are great "original sources" in my book. If it was not for "old timer sargents" steering us straight we wouldn't have servived in the war zones either.

The final briefs are rather pure: statistically proving additional safety risks vs. impeding free trade across the states.

Al Kresse

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "gary laakso" <vasa0vasa@earthlink.net>
I spent 20 years in the ESPEE legal department and everyone there, including the olde timers when i was a pup, told me it was union lobbying for more work not coupler strength that was involved. If you look at class 1 railroad employment and the timing of the laws, there is a striking (no pun intended) correlation. There ought to be some mention of the views of the parties in the Supreme Court case and the briefs of the parties.

gary laakso
south of Mike Brock
vasa0vasa@earthlink.net

----- Original Message -----
From:
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 9/17/2008 10:36:30 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Early train length laws

Gary,

First, I don't doubt your very logical conclusion. Do you have any pre-WWI "original source" documentation to back that up? . . . or even a general book on railroad history during those times? Longer trains would mean less train crews per ton moved. Looking at the State of Virginia Laws and Codes on the internet I find that the ministers were more influential in trying to ban movements of trains "not completely filled" with interstate commerce on Sundays (1908), or banning train crews from not being brought home before Sunday services (1890s), or prohibiting sales of liquor on trains, or even prohibiting passenger trains to pull reefers . . . because they might carry German-style beer from Cincinnatti down to Newport News (1890s). Plus, there were the Jim Crow laws.

Us Northerners up here in Michigan (born in Ashland, Kentucky) aren't suppose to say anything about Southern Culture without references to back it up.

Thanks,

Al Kresse

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "gary laakso" <vasa0vasa@earthlink.net>
The state laws had much more to do wth union politics then coupler strength. The laws were desiged to maximize union employment and or overtime. The unions were pushing for federal laws to do the same thing.

gary laakso
south of Mike Brock
vasa0vasa@earthlink.net

----- Original Message -----
From:
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 9/17/2008 9:32:35 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Early train length laws

Thanks for finding support material relative to the 1912 Arizona 70-car freight train length limit. Rationale appears to be to minimize coupler failures resulting from higher slack-loads from longer trains?

My question is why would this affect C&O, N&W, and Virginian coal traffic between Kentucky, Ohio, WV, and Virginia . . . and Tidewater? Were other states considering maximum train length laws at the same time? Ohio seemed to be progressive in mandating 24-ft, 8-wheeled cabooses on interchange service circa 1914. it seems that these railroads at that time had enough problems just finding loco power to pull loaded coal trains up their grades . . much less making trains longer than 70-cars (even though they were going towards 100-car tracks in their coal classification yard improvements in the early 20s).

Al Kresse

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "James F. Brewer" <jfbrewer@comcast.net>
I believe this law was the basis for litigation that led to a Supreme Court decision declaring it to be a violation of the Interstate Commerce Act and therefore, unconstitutional.

Jim Brewer
Glenwood MD

----- Original Message -----
From: al_brown03
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2008 5:12 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Early train length laws

-- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "al.kresse" <water.kresse@...> wrote:

Folks,

Maybe this a new subject?

Do we have any information on State Legist's attempting to mandate
maximum number of freight cars allowed per train?
Yes. Arizona had a law limiting freight trains to 70 cars and
passenger trains to 14; in the forties the SP tested it, and SP won.
The law dated to 1912; I don't know how consistently it'd been
enforced.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0325_0761_ZO.h
tml

(Found this by googling "train length law". If the link wraps, you
may need to type in the last few characters.)

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.


Andrew Dow's great N&W Coal Car book refers to that being a driving
reason for building 120-ton and 90-ton "Battleship Gons" in the
late teens and early twenties. Do we have copies of specific
proposed rules?

Were there Federal proposes also?

Al Kresse


Re: GS gon kits (was: How long would there be PRR gons in pre-circle keystone paint?)

Dean Payne
 

Andy,
I thought the F&C gon was a flat kit (or kits, they come 2 in a
package). Maybe this is a newer version of the same kit. The
original ones didn't have any detail on the interiors of the side. I
think this would be a better approach than using the Bowser kit and
Stan Rydarowicz's resin ends (unless you already own the Bowser kit).
Dean Payne

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Andy Miller" <aslmmiller@...> wrote:

F&C makes a one-piece body resin kit for the GS gons with the brake
wheel on the "modern" side (The Bowser is correct for very early cars
before the standardization of safety appliances). The cost is
comparable to the Bowser kit and the detail can be much better.

regards,

Andy Miller
----- Original Message -----
From: Dean Payne
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2008 5:18 PM
Subject: [STMFC] How long would there be PRR gons in pre-circle
keystone paint?


. . .

I know, the brake wheel is on the wrong side, Nehrich says it's a
pain
to fix.

Dean Payne


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Early train length laws

gary laakso
 

I spent 20 years in the ESPEE legal department and everyone there, including the olde timers when i was a pup, told me it was union lobbying for more work not coupler strength that was involved. If you look at class 1 railroad employment and the timing of the laws, there is a striking (no pun intended) correlation. There ought to be some mention of the views of the parties in the Supreme Court case and the briefs of the parties.

gary laakso
south of Mike Brock
vasa0vasa@earthlink.net

----- Original Message -----
From:
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 9/17/2008 10:36:30 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Early train length laws


Gary,

First, I don't doubt your very logical conclusion. Do you have any pre-WWI "original source" documentation to back that up? . . . or even a general book on railroad history during those times? Longer trains would mean less train crews per ton moved. Looking at the State of Virginia Laws and Codes on the internet I find that the ministers were more influential in trying to ban movements of trains "not completely filled" with interstate commerce on Sundays (1908), or banning train crews from not being brought home before Sunday services (1890s), or prohibiting sales of liquor on trains, or even prohibiting passenger trains to pull reefers . . . because they might carry German-style beer from Cincinnatti down to Newport News (1890s). Plus, there were the Jim Crow laws.

Us Northerners up here in Michigan (born in Ashland, Kentucky) aren't suppose to say anything about Southern Culture without references to back it up.

Thanks,

Al Kresse

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "gary laakso" <vasa0vasa@earthlink.net>
The state laws had much more to do wth union politics then coupler strength. The laws were desiged to maximize union employment and or overtime. The unions were pushing for federal laws to do the same thing.

gary laakso
south of Mike Brock
vasa0vasa@earthlink.net

----- Original Message -----
From:
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 9/17/2008 9:32:35 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Early train length laws

Thanks for finding support material relative to the 1912 Arizona 70-car freight train length limit. Rationale appears to be to minimize coupler failures resulting from higher slack-loads from longer trains?

My question is why would this affect C&O, N&W, and Virginian coal traffic between Kentucky, Ohio, WV, and Virginia . . . and Tidewater? Were other states considering maximum train length laws at the same time? Ohio seemed to be progressive in mandating 24-ft, 8-wheeled cabooses on interchange service circa 1914. it seems that these railroads at that time had enough problems just finding loco power to pull loaded coal trains up their grades . . much less making trains longer than 70-cars (even though they were going towards 100-car tracks in their coal classification yard improvements in the early 20s).

Al Kresse

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "James F. Brewer" <jfbrewer@comcast.net>
I believe this law was the basis for litigation that led to a Supreme Court decision declaring it to be a violation of the Interstate Commerce Act and therefore, unconstitutional.

Jim Brewer
Glenwood MD

----- Original Message -----
From: al_brown03
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2008 5:12 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Early train length laws

-- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "al.kresse" <water.kresse@...> wrote:

Folks,

Maybe this a new subject?

Do we have any information on State Legist's attempting to mandate
maximum number of freight cars allowed per train?
Yes. Arizona had a law limiting freight trains to 70 cars and
passenger trains to 14; in the forties the SP tested it, and SP won.
The law dated to 1912; I don't know how consistently it'd been
enforced.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0325_0761_ZO.h
tml

(Found this by googling "train length law". If the link wraps, you
may need to type in the last few characters.)

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.


Andrew Dow's great N&W Coal Car book refers to that being a driving
reason for building 120-ton and 90-ton "Battleship Gons" in the
late teens and early twenties. Do we have copies of specific
proposed rules?

Were there Federal proposes also?

Al Kresse


Re: Early train length laws

water.kresse@...
 

Gary,

First, I don't doubt your very logical conclusion. Do you have any pre-WWI "original source" documentation to back that up? . . . or even a general book on railroad history during those times? Longer trains would mean less train crews per ton moved. Looking at the State of Virginia Laws and Codes on the internet I find that the ministers were more influential in trying to ban movements of trains "not completely filled" with interstate commerce on Sundays (1908), or banning train crews from not being brought home before Sunday services (1890s), or prohibiting sales of liquor on trains, or even prohibiting passenger trains to pull reefers . . . because they might carry German-style beer from Cincinnatti down to Newport News (1890s). Plus, there were the Jim Crow laws.

Us Northerners up here in Michigan (born in Ashland, Kentucky) aren't suppose to say anything about Southern Culture without references to back it up.

Thanks,

Al Kresse

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "gary laakso" <vasa0vasa@earthlink.net>
The state laws had much more to do wth union politics then coupler strength. The laws were desiged to maximize union employment and or overtime. The unions were pushing for federal laws to do the same thing.

gary laakso
south of Mike Brock
vasa0vasa@earthlink.net

----- Original Message -----
From:
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 9/17/2008 9:32:35 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Early train length laws

Thanks for finding support material relative to the 1912 Arizona 70-car freight train length limit. Rationale appears to be to minimize coupler failures resulting from higher slack-loads from longer trains?

My question is why would this affect C&O, N&W, and Virginian coal traffic between Kentucky, Ohio, WV, and Virginia . . . and Tidewater? Were other states considering maximum train length laws at the same time? Ohio seemed to be progressive in mandating 24-ft, 8-wheeled cabooses on interchange service circa 1914. it seems that these railroads at that time had enough problems just finding loco power to pull loaded coal trains up their grades . . much less making trains longer than 70-cars (even though they were going towards 100-car tracks in their coal classification yard improvements in the early 20s).

Al Kresse

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "James F. Brewer" <jfbrewer@comcast.net>
I believe this law was the basis for litigation that led to a Supreme Court decision declaring it to be a violation of the Interstate Commerce Act and therefore, unconstitutional.

Jim Brewer
Glenwood MD

----- Original Message -----
From: al_brown03
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2008 5:12 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Early train length laws

-- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "al.kresse" <water.kresse@...> wrote:

Folks,

Maybe this a new subject?

Do we have any information on State Legist's attempting to mandate
maximum number of freight cars allowed per train?
Yes. Arizona had a law limiting freight trains to 70 cars and
passenger trains to 14; in the forties the SP tested it, and SP won.
The law dated to 1912; I don't know how consistently it'd been
enforced.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0325_0761_ZO.h
tml

(Found this by googling "train length law". If the link wraps, you
may need to type in the last few characters.)

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.


Andrew Dow's great N&W Coal Car book refers to that being a driving
reason for building 120-ton and 90-ton "Battleship Gons" in the
late teens and early twenties. Do we have copies of specific
proposed rules?

Were there Federal proposes also?

Al Kresse


Re: Early train length laws

gary laakso
 

The state laws had much more to do wth union politics then coupler strength. The laws were desiged to maximize union employment and or overtime. The unions were pushing for federal laws to do the same thing.

gary laakso
south of Mike Brock
vasa0vasa@earthlink.net

----- Original Message -----
From:
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 9/17/2008 9:32:35 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Early train length laws


Thanks for finding support material relative to the 1912 Arizona 70-car freight train length limit. Rationale appears to be to minimize coupler failures resulting from higher slack-loads from longer trains?

My question is why would this affect C&O, N&W, and Virginian coal traffic between Kentucky, Ohio, WV, and Virginia . . . and Tidewater? Were other states considering maximum train length laws at the same time? Ohio seemed to be progressive in mandating 24-ft, 8-wheeled cabooses on interchange service circa 1914. it seems that these railroads at that time had enough problems just finding loco power to pull loaded coal trains up their grades . . much less making trains longer than 70-cars (even though they were going towards 100-car tracks in their coal classification yard improvements in the early 20s).

Al Kresse

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "James F. Brewer" <jfbrewer@comcast.net>
I believe this law was the basis for litigation that led to a Supreme Court decision declaring it to be a violation of the Interstate Commerce Act and therefore, unconstitutional.

Jim Brewer
Glenwood MD

----- Original Message -----
From: al_brown03
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2008 5:12 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Early train length laws

-- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "al.kresse" <water.kresse@...> wrote:

Folks,

Maybe this a new subject?

Do we have any information on State Legist's attempting to mandate
maximum number of freight cars allowed per train?
Yes. Arizona had a law limiting freight trains to 70 cars and
passenger trains to 14; in the forties the SP tested it, and SP won.
The law dated to 1912; I don't know how consistently it'd been
enforced.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0325_0761_ZO.h
tml

(Found this by googling "train length law". If the link wraps, you
may need to type in the last few characters.)

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.


Andrew Dow's great N&W Coal Car book refers to that being a driving
reason for building 120-ton and 90-ton "Battleship Gons" in the
late teens and early twenties. Do we have copies of specific
proposed rules?

Were there Federal proposes also?

Al Kresse


Re: Early train length laws

water.kresse@...
 

Thanks for finding support material relative to the 1912 Arizona 70-car freight train length limit. Rationale appears to be to minimize coupler failures resulting from higher slack-loads from longer trains?

My question is why would this affect C&O, N&W, and Virginian coal traffic between Kentucky, Ohio, WV, and Virginia . . . and Tidewater? Were other states considering maximum train length laws at the same time? Ohio seemed to be progressive in mandating 24-ft, 8-wheeled cabooses on interchange service circa 1914. it seems that these railroads at that time had enough problems just finding loco power to pull loaded coal trains up their grades . . much less making trains longer than 70-cars (even though they were going towards 100-car tracks in their coal classification yard improvements in the early 20s).

Al Kresse

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "James F. Brewer" <jfbrewer@comcast.net>
I believe this law was the basis for litigation that led to a Supreme Court decision declaring it to be a violation of the Interstate Commerce Act and therefore, unconstitutional.

Jim Brewer
Glenwood MD

----- Original Message -----
From: al_brown03
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2008 5:12 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Early train length laws

-- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "al.kresse" <water.kresse@...> wrote:

Folks,

Maybe this a new subject?

Do we have any information on State Legist's attempting to mandate
maximum number of freight cars allowed per train?
Yes. Arizona had a law limiting freight trains to 70 cars and
passenger trains to 14; in the forties the SP tested it, and SP won.
The law dated to 1912; I don't know how consistently it'd been
enforced.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0325_0761_ZO.h
tml

(Found this by googling "train length law". If the link wraps, you
may need to type in the last few characters.)

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.


Andrew Dow's great N&W Coal Car book refers to that being a driving
reason for building 120-ton and 90-ton "Battleship Gons" in the
late teens and early twenties. Do we have copies of specific
proposed rules?

Were there Federal proposes also?

Al Kresse


Re: Heavy Duty Flat

Bruce Smith
 

Dick,

As we have been over multiple times in the past, the F&C home page works fine, the problem is that when you try to view, say "HO Freight Cars", you get a list of roadnames that then goes nowhere, or if you select the kit number option, the same thing. Even Explorer cannot seem to get beyond this on the Mac... and I'm pretty sure it doesn't work on my PC laptop either. I've complained to Steve about this flaw multiple times, but it has obviously not been fixed.

Brian - Rich was talking about O scale - see http:// www.richyodermodels.com/

Regards
Bruce

Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

On Sep 16, 2008, at 11:45 PM, Richard Dermody wrote:

Brian,

Can't explain what your problem is, but using Firefox 3 on a MacBook
Pro, the site comes up fine.

Dick

On Sep 16, 2008, at 11:52 PM, Brian Paul Ehni wrote:

What scale? F&C already does a resin kit for these!

BTW, F&C's website STILL refuses to work on my Mac, either in Safari
or
Firefox. That's just lame.
--
Thanks!

Brian Ehni

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



Re: Heavy Duty Flat

jerryglow2
 

In Mozilla Firefox on a PC, I viewed the site then called up the
source and did a search for what I wanted. I copied that reference
and pasted it to the base URL and got the page. A little cluggy and
work but it works.

Jerry Glow

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "pierreoliver2003" <pierre.oliver@...>
wrote:

This is an old problem with their website. You can get to the home
page, but unless you're using Explorer, you can't get inside and
look
at the individual models. It's been like this from day one.
Pierre Oliver

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Richard Dermody <ddermody@> wrote:

Brian,

Can't explain what your problem is, but using Firefox 3 on a
MacBook
Pro, the site comes up fine.

Dick

On Sep 16, 2008, at 11:52 PM, Brian Paul Ehni wrote:

What scale? F&C already does a resin kit for these!

BTW, F&C's website STILL refuses to work on my Mac, either in
Safari
or
Firefox. That's just lame.
--
Thanks!

Brian Ehni


Re: Heavy Duty Flat

pierreoliver2003 <pierre.oliver@...>
 

This is an old problem with their website. You can get to the home
page, but unless you're using Explorer, you can't get inside and look
at the individual models. It's been like this from day one.
Pierre Oliver

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Richard Dermody <ddermody@...> wrote:

Brian,

Can't explain what your problem is, but using Firefox 3 on a MacBook
Pro, the site comes up fine.

Dick

On Sep 16, 2008, at 11:52 PM, Brian Paul Ehni wrote:

What scale? F&C already does a resin kit for these!

BTW, F&C's website STILL refuses to work on my Mac, either in Safari
or
Firefox. That's just lame.
--
Thanks!

Brian Ehni


Terrell Cotton Oil Co

matt
 

Hi Guys,

Does anyone have any information regarding the Terrell Cotton Oil
Company and their tanks cars?

Their reporting marks, history, transport of what and why etc

thanks for your help

MATT


Continental Oil Tank Cars

matt
 

hi tehre,

Can anyone tell me if Continental Oil used Tank Cars with any other
reporting marks than CONX and CTAX? i.e. Did they lease any cars from
GATX, UTLX etc?

Also when did they change their reporting marks from CONX to CTAX or
did they run concurrently?

thanks for your help

MATT


Re: Heavy Duty Flat

Richard Dermody <ddermody@...>
 

Brian,

Can't explain what your problem is, but using Firefox 3 on a MacBook Pro, the site comes up fine.

Dick

On Sep 16, 2008, at 11:52 PM, Brian Paul Ehni wrote:

What scale? F&C already does a resin kit for these!

BTW, F&C's website STILL refuses to work on my Mac, either in Safari or
Firefox. That's just lame.
--
Thanks!

Brian Ehni


Re: Heavy Duty Flat

Brian Paul Ehni <behni@...>
 

What scale? F&C already does a resin kit for these!

BTW, F&C's website STILL refuses to work on my Mac, either in Safari or
Firefox. That's just lame.
--
Thanks!

Brian Ehni



From: Richard Yoder <oscale48@comcast.net>
Reply-To: STMFC List <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 23:26:48 -0400
To: STMFC List <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Heavy Duty Flat




Well The PRR F22 were flat deck short 100 ton cars used for hauling in
tandem big stuff like bridge beams. Oldies but lasted into the 70's.
The pilot is due soon.
O yea, they also hauled naval guns.

Sincerely, Rich Yoder
7 Edgedale Court
Wyomissing PA 19610-1913
610-678-2834 after 6:00PM est until 10:00PM
www.richyodermodels.com

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf
Of
joel norman
Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2008 8:10 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [STMFC] Heavy Duty Flat

gentleman: was wondering who makes a rtr heavy duty flat that fits
within our era,modeling the tail end of steam(1955-1960)and need a
heavy duty flat(s)not depressed center flats but flat deck....and
speaking of DCF,what will we see rtr DCF's????
Thanks
Joel Norman--A&LO

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links


Re: Stockcar Photos Uploaded

Steve SANDIFER
 

I've updated my stock car photo page with some details of ATSF cars and the CM&StP at Galveston
http://atsfrr.net/resources/Sandifer/Clinics/Stk/PresStk.htm
______________
J. Stephen (Steve) Sandifer
mailto:steve.sandifer@sbcglobal.net
Home: 12027 Mulholland Drive, Meadows Place, TX 77477, 281-568-9918
Office: Southwest Central Church of Christ, 4011 W. Bellfort, Houston, TX 77025, 713-667-9417

----- Original Message -----
From: Charlie Vlk
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 12:06 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Stockcar Photos Uploaded


The Illinois Railway Museum has restored ATSF 60394 and it is in like new condition (no loads yet).
IIRC it has the toehold holes in the ends.
Charlie Vlk

http://www.irm.org/cgi-bin/rsearch.cgi?freight=Atchison+Topeka+&;+Santa+Fe+Railroad=60394


Re: Heavy Duty Flat

Rich Yoder
 

Well The PRR F22 were flat deck short 100 ton cars used for hauling in
tandem big stuff like bridge beams. Oldies but lasted into the 70's.
The pilot is due soon.
O yea, they also hauled naval guns.

Sincerely, Rich Yoder
7 Edgedale Court
Wyomissing PA 19610-1913
610-678-2834 after 6:00PM est until 10:00PM
www.richyodermodels.com

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
joel norman
Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2008 8:10 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] Heavy Duty Flat

gentleman: was wondering who makes a rtr heavy duty flat that fits
within our era,modeling the tail end of steam(1955-1960)and need a
heavy duty flat(s)not depressed center flats but flat deck....and
speaking of DCF,what will we see rtr DCF's????
Thanks
Joel Norman--A&LO


------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links


Re: How long would there be PRR gons in pre-circle keystone paint?

Dean Payne
 

Thanks for enlightening me, Ben, I was just doing a search for
"pre-ck" and only found one hit. It's been a long time since I looked
at the different PRR schemes, and forgot most of what I read.
BTW, this is an NK3 scheme.
If you add the GS and GSd gons together, the Pennsy had more of them
in 1939 than they did X29s! I looked it up on the Keystone Crossing
Top 30 Classes site:
kc.pennsyrr.com:8080/forms/topclass/
Honestly, though, I don't know what the distinction is between GS and
GSd gons at that point, I understood that the drop doors of the GS
were sealed in the 30's, when they got AB brakes and cast trucks. I
now see that the GSd class disappeared after 1939... so maybe that's
when the drop doors were plated over. But, I don't see that the GS
class increased by as much as the GSd lost, maybe 2/3rds of the GSd
were scrapped?
And... I have TKM #4 with the GS gon article on CD! (I have all the
later ones saved on my hard drive, and forgot about the CD. Sheesh!)

Dean Payne



--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "benjaminfrank_hom" <b.hom@...> wrote:

Dean Payne asked:
"How long would there be PRR gons in pre-circle keystone paint? I
read somewhere that adoption of the CK scheme was pretty rapid, but
I wonder if my GS gon in pre-ck paint would be still be around a
decade after 1930."

I posted the following three years ago (Message #32040):
While pulling research for another topic, I came upon an article in
the Winter 1991 Keystone on a wreck between a B&O oil train and PRR
coal train at the crossing at Piqua, Ohio, March 29, 1942. Some
items of interest include:
<<snip>>
- A PRR Class GR gondola still in the NK3 paint scheme
(underscored "PENNSYLVANIA", discontinued in 1926). Car number is
obscured but possibly 27713n (legible digits '713', GR number series
PRR 274831-279853).

You didn't say which pre-CK scheme your model was in (NK3 or NK4),
but from the above photo, at least one gon in NK3 survived into
1942, so it's certainly possible.


Dean continues:
"I know, the brake wheel is on the wrong side, Nehrich says it's a
pain to fix."

Andy Miller replied:
"The Bowser is correct for very early cars before the standardization
of safety appliances."

Not exactly true. The Bowser body molding comes with the pre-Safety
Appliance Act arrangement, but the kit comes with AB brake
components, resulting in a hermaphrodite model. It's a pain to fix
because you have to carve off and replace the end grabs. Stan
Rydarowicz sells replacement ends without grab detail that speeds up
this task.

See Elden Gatwood and Jim Hunter's articles in the November 2003
issue of TKM for more details, including some excellent weathering
tips. This issue is no longer on the PRRT&HS website, but is
available from the society on CD.


Ben Hom


Re: How long would there be PRR gons in pre-circle keystone paint?

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

I wrote:
"I posted the following three years ago (Message #32040)..."

Oops - make that 4 years ago! Tempus fugit...


Ben Hom

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