Date   

D&RGW White Cookie Box boxcar

Michael Bishop <goldrod_1@...>
 

What year did D&RGW start to use the white boxcar for thier Cookie Box
Boxcars.

Michael Bishop


Re: PSC air hoses/angle cock brackets: Modeling notes.

Charlie Vlk
 

Dennis-
Thanks for posting these excellent documents.... there are many among us (including, I admit, me!!) that have never noticed that the Angle Cocks
are to be installed at an angle (are they called that because of that???!!!)..... ???
I've seen a lot of well-detailed cars over the years that had the hoses and angle cocks hanging straight down.....
Charlie Vlk


Re: PSC air hoses/angle cock brackets: Modeling notes.

Dennis Storzek
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Denny Anspach <danspach@...> wrote:

Once the brackets are secured in place, then insert and secure the air
pipe ends of the hoses with their angle cocks into the angle cock
bracket. Remember that the longitudinal plane of the angle cock is to
be angled about 45º toward the car center...
I noticed one error In Doc's excellent presentation on installing air
hoses on the new PSC brackets; the angle cock should point 30 deg.
from vertical toward the track centerline, not 45. I've uploaded a
placement diagram from the 1922 CBC to my photo album of prototype
information at:

http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/photos/browse/ce48

These dimensions varied slightly over the years, and different
diagrams are shown in later issues of the CBC, but those are still
under copyright. In any case, the differences were but a few scale
inches, mostly in the placement relative to the car centerline, which
will need to be modified to accommodate overly wide coupler boxes anyway.

Doc mentions the fact that the hole for the pipe isn't cored. If you
look at the photo of the PSC part http://tinyurl.com/4gafft you'll see
that it needs some gentle straightening with a smooth jaw pliers. This
is because the bolt detail and dimple in the "eye bolt" cause the wax
masters to hang up in the rubber mold, and the parts bend in the
process of removal. If the holes would have been cored through, the
masters would not have come out of the mold at all, and even if they
did, the resulting thin section would likely not cast.

Dennis


Air Hoses & brackets (PSC). Uploaded new Files and photos.

Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
 

I have just finished uploaded to FILES two new folders covering the data behind the recent new production of HO cast brass anglecock brackets by Precision Scale (PSC). These are in two FILES beginning with AIR HOSES. In PHOTOS is a single new AIR HOSE (PSC) album photo- depicting a few recent representative applications on Sunshine and Accurail cars.

These Files and Photo album are intended to be supplementary to my recent post on these subjects #76283 2 October.

Please note that the most important data comes to all of us freely courtesy of prolific List Member Dennis Storzek. He deserves a few stars in his crown.

Denny

Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento


Re: Loading tank cars with tung oil, 1929

ron christensen
 

Close up photos of the springs can be found in my folder "Soo Box car"
Ron Christensen

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Dennis Storzek" <destorzek@...> wrote:

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, timboconnor@ wrote:


If you zoom in at 100% you can see large coil springs in a horizontal
position at the level of the draft gear. What the heck is that? Or could
it be coiled pipes?

Tim O'Connor
Tim,

They are the springs that load the shock absorbing wedges in Cardwell
and some other brands of draft gear. Real common during the twenties,
ARA draft sill standards show the location of the slots these springs
protrude through, although I think their inclusionwas optional. UTLX
liked these draft gears, and they really show on a model of a car with
high walkways, but you need a scale width draft gear "box" to have the
whole affair look correct.

Unfortunately, the Cardwell name has been reused in recent times, so I
can't find a web link to an illustration, but they were well
illustrated in the CBCs of the day. The outer springs were about the
size of truck springs, about 5" in diameter, and projected 9" 10" out
from the web of the center sills, and were retained by a large cast
washer. Grandt Line has some model cast washers intended for truss
rods that would work.

Dennis


Re: Eastern States Farmers Exchange reefers

Donald B. Valentine <riverman_vt@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Roger Hinman <rhinman@...> wrote:

Add Ohio to the list, I have a couple of car photos that are
stenciled "Return to Eastern States Farmers Exchange, NKPRR, Huron
OH"

Others are stencilled "Return to Eastern States Farmers Exchante,
NYC,
Black Rock, NH"

Roger Hinman
On Oct 1, 2008, at 9:25 AM, Stephen Bishop wrote:

That would be Black Rock, NY rather than NH, Roger. Black Rock was
a major feed processing plant. I do remember Huron, Ohio, now that
you mention it, and will try to look that one up in my Handbook when
it is unburied. There were photos of both the Balck Rock and Huron
facilities included within it.

Don Valentine


Re: MILW interchange carload data

Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
 

If the MILW sent a WAB car to the WAB, would it be possible that the MILW considered it interchange but the WAB wouldn't?

KL

----- Original Message -----
From: allen rueter
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 10:41 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: MILW interchange carload data


Paul,
Hmm,
I have the same data for the Wabash, what's weird is they do not
match, I guess the accountants were cooking the books back the too?
1954
Milw sheet: Wabash Council Bluffs 387 215
Wab sheet: Milw Council Bluffs 199 243

Milw sheet: Wabash Chicago 5224 8802
Wab Sheet: Milw Chicago 5456 2141

Milw Sheet: Wabash Manhattan 18 2
Wab Sheet: Milw Manhattan 2 17


Wanted: Westerfield USRA DS Box Car

golden1014
 

Gentlemen,
 
I'm in search of a Westerfield USRA DS box car that is an older "flat" kit.  I need a flat kit because I'm modeling a car that requires scratchbuilt ends, so a one-piece car body casting (or an Accurail car) will not do.  I also do not desire the really old kit with the dark gray castings, thanks. 

If you have such a flat kit and would be willing to part with it, please let me know off-line at Golden1014@yahoo.com so we can work up a deal.  Any road is fine, or keep the decals as I will be using a custom set. 
 
Thanks!
 
John
 
John Golden
Bloomington, IN


Re: Alco Models Greenviile Well Hole Flatcar Model

water.kresse@...
 

The C&O Greenville 90750-series deep-well flat had 11 vertical ribs on the sides.

Al Kresse

-------------- Original message --------------
From: sseders@comcast.net
I have uploaded two photos of the Alco Models car in the Photos section of the website. Following is a link:

http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/photos/browse/d0c4

Scott Seders

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "jerryglow2" <jerryglow@comcast.net>

I thought it resembled a C&O car which was also done as a craftsman
kit by Quality Craft IIRC. F&C makes a one piece resin body kit of
the PRR F33.

Jerry Glow

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Gatwood, Elden J SAD "
wrote:

Guys;



The Alco Models well flat I have seen labeled as the "Greenville
Well Hole"
looks very much like a PRR F33. It has been ages since I saw one,
but that
was what it looked like. I cannot vouch for its accuracy, since I
never had
the opportunity to sit down and really examine one. I would also
very much
like to see some photos.



Thanks,



Elden Gatwood


------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



Re: PSC air hoses/angle cock brackets: Modeling notes.

docdenny34 <danspach@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Smith <smithbf@...> wrote:

On Oct 2, 2008, at 12:11 PM, Denny Anspach wrote:
Brass Air Hoses: The PSC air hose (#3150) has a finely detailed angle
cock on each side of which are very short thin areas representing the
transitions to the fittings of the rubber hose on one side, and the
air pipe on the other. These tiny "choke points" represent very
fragile areas that in the process of careless handling leads to very
easy breakage before one even gets going.
Denny,

Are these any better than the plastic ones, then? It sounds like
exactly the problem I have with those.
Infinitely better. What I am referring to is the manual bending, and shaping of the brass
hoses prior to installation, not the usual breakage problems following installation. With
careful support of the fragile areas during the install process, this problem virtually
disappears.

Denny


Re: PSC air hoses/angle cock brackets: Modeling notes.

Bruce Smith
 

On Oct 2, 2008, at 12:11 PM, Denny Anspach wrote:
Brass Air Hoses: The PSC air hose (#3150) has a finely detailed angle
cock on each side of which are very short thin areas representing the
transitions to the fittings of the rubber hose on one side, and the
air pipe on the other. These tiny "choke points" represent very
fragile areas that in the process of careless handling leads to very
easy breakage before one even gets going.
Denny,

Are these any better than the plastic ones, then? It sounds like exactly the problem I have with those.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0


Re: Alco Models Greenviile Well Hole Flatcar Model

Bruce Smith
 

On Oct 2, 2008, at 11:53 AM, sseders@comcast.net wrote:

I have uploaded two photos of the Alco Models car in the Photos section of the website. Following is a link:

http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/photos/browse/d0c4

Scott Seders
Scott,

Yep - sure looks like a PRR F33 flat.

http://prr.railfan.net/freight/freightphotos.html? photo=PRR_470090_F33_MLC1939.jpg&fr=clF33
http://prr.railfan.net/freight/freightphotos.html? photo=PRR_470088_F33_E13620_051142.jpg&fr=clF33
http://prr.railfan.net/freight/freightphotos.html? photo=PRR_470011_F33_E11327_34view.jpg&fr=clF33

Because this car was built by Greenville to a PRR design, it is possible that other railroads used the design as well. Due to the specialized nature of the car, it could be seen anywhere a large load needed to be delivered...

The F33 was covered in TKM #40, which if you have not been downloading, is available on CD from the PRRT&HS. The car is offered in resin in HO by F&C, so that might be the best place to go for decals.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0


PSC air hoses/angle cock brackets: Modeling notes.

Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
 

Please discard any preceding post under a similar title . It was
inadvertently sent when quite incomplete!

********

For a very long time I have been interested in improving the scale
detailing on the ends of our operating freight cars. Air hoses, angle
cocks and their brackets have been major players.

As the result of dissatisfaction with any acceptable HO plastic air
hose longevity under real time operating conditions (with/without plastic angle cocks), and-- the complete marketplace absence the most
common pattern of anglecock brackets used in our freight car era, the
idea arose on this list of using sturdy brass hoses and brackets .
However, although high quality brass hoses have been available from
PSC and Cal Scale for some time, until PSC was recently persuaded to
cast brackets made to Dennis Storzek's plans, and Dennis' and Chad
Boas' patterns, freight car detailers have had no effective strong way
of mounting the brass hoses to the model, at least in any fashion that
would stand up to more than a week or so in operations. This simply
recognizes the fact that the very rigidity of the brass hoses can
create an even more stiff lever arm that when pressed will almost
assuredly dislodge, break or send flying any intermediary plastic or
resin mounting angle cock bracket!

Here are some notes and suggestions resulting from applications of
these relatively new important details to recent freight car modeling
projects. Some understanding of working with these very fine brass
parts is helpful, not only to get the most out of these fine parts,
but also to reduce any wastage of these relatively costly items.

Brass Air Hoses: The PSC air hose (#3150) has a finely detailed angle
cock on each side of which are very short thin areas representing the
transitions to the fittings of the rubber hose on one side, and the
air pipe on the other. These tiny "choke points" represent very
fragile areas that in the process of careless handling leads to very
easy breakage before one even gets going. In my hands "careless handling" has meant not FIRMLY supporting these points with
needlepoint pliers or similar while either straightening or shaping
the air pipe; or more commonly, while also performing the gentle
shaping of the air hose itself into its characteristic drooping
compound curvature, i.e. a curve toward the vertical in the
longitudinal plane, and a curve toward the center horizontal in the
transverse plane (these respective curves of the two adjoining hoses
replicate the natural curvature described when the two are coupled
together).

The air pipe is a nominal .020" (#76), but variations make an
assumption of .021" (#75) a much safer proposition.

Brass Angle cock Bracket: The key to the use of this bracket
(#39156) is to successfully drill-out of the center of the U bolt that
wraps around the air hose brake pipe. The U bolt could not be cored
during the casting process, and although nominally there is instead a
dimple to capture the point of a #75 or #76 drill, individual casting
variations sometimes make the dimple almost impossible to locate.
After some excessive wastage charged off to a learning curve, I have
settled on the following drilling procedure:

1) Before clipping the brackets from their sprue, I center-punch each
of the U bolts while bracing the face of each U bolt on a supporting surface. This solved the drill-centering problem.

2) I then sharply clip off each bracket at the very base of its sprue,
the resulting "post" serving to provide a very effective mechanical
anchor into a drilled #71 hole into the underside of the freight car.
Using sharp nippers creates a clean undistorted "cut", while unsharp
cutters distort and enlarge the post.

3) I clamp each separated bracket into a vise drill out the delicate
U bolts. A drill press is superior for this task; but a Dremel tool
can also serve, as long as one has a steady hand. Holding a bracket
in one hand and attempting to drill it with a Dremel in the other CAN
be done, but in my hands, wastage was high, and it was inevitable that
I would slip and drill my hand in the process.

Once into it, these processes not only go very smoothly, but also very
fast. In this regard, once set up, I prepared as many of these
brackets and hoses as I was able at the time (20 cars at the last go-
round).

The brackets are then locked into a drilled #71 hole in the underside
of the freight car, the hole sited approximately 0.145" aft of the
coupler box striker plate. Although on the prototype the bracket is
sited directly along side the draft gear/coupler box, on models with
the semi-scale coupler boxes (Accumate Proto, Sergent) and scale
projection of the coupler heads beyond the striker plate, one has to allow some small added lateral space to avoid letting the attached air
hoses from interfering with the swing of the coupler head.

I successfully use both either ACC or Barge Cement in this process.
The tough resilience of Barge Cement has a theoretical advantage in
that it can probably better withstand the occasional knocks that these
stiff air hose assemblies are bound to receive in routine use.

Once the brackets are secured in place, then insert and secure the air
pipe ends of the hoses with their angle cocks into the angle cock
bracket. Remember that the longitudinal plane of the angle cock is to
be angled about 45º toward the car center. Hose and bracket can be
secured in place most easily with ACC, but can also probably be
secured for eternity with a quick application of a small tip soldering
iron (the latter should only be attempted by those comfortable with
soldering such small pieces, especially considering the risk of
collateral car damage during the process).

Added comments: Whether or not the modeler will wish to keep
magnetic trip pins AND these new air hose assemblies will be a matter
of individual choice, in addition to one's own skills in managing to
keep these unyielding air hoses from mechanically interfering with the
trip pins. I do not use the trip pins, so they are either simply not
mounted during coupler assembly, or they are routinely clipped off.

I believe that the new availability of these hardy air hose assemblies
marks another significant move toward the goal of at last bringing
the ends of our scale HO freight cars into some semblance of
prototypical acceptability. These moves have been:

1) We have been firmly moving away from the conventional porcine
0.110" tread wheels of the past 70 years to the more visually-
acceptable 0.088" semi-scale wheels.

2) Close-to-scale narrow coupler boxes are now provided by Accurail
and Sergent, providing long-sought relief from the common gaping-ugly-
fish-mouth boxes that we have had to put up with for so long.

3) Along with the narrow boxes, both Accurail and Sergent also provide
integrated scale-size couplers with scale shank lengths that for the
very first time also allow an almost perfectly scale 29" striker-to-
striker coupler distance between cars. I cannot overemphasize the
importance of this when one observes our prototype cars actually _en
train_, closely spaced and with the satsifying illusion of coupling
air hoses now filling the space below the joined couplers.

4) Scale-sized couplers need no advocate. However, IMHO they have only limited visual value if they are not accompanied at the same time by
scale shank lengths and- they are housed in narrow coupler boxes.

I am attempting some photos and other graphic materials to place into
Files, and will do so when I succeed!

Denny













Denny S. Anspach MD
Sacramento


Re: Alco Models Greenviile Well Hole Flatcar Model

Scott Seders
 

I have uploaded two photos of the Alco Models car in the Photos section of the website. Following is a link:

http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/photos/browse/d0c4

Scott Seders

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "jerryglow2" <jerryglow@comcast.net>

I thought it resembled a C&O car which was also done as a craftsman
kit by Quality Craft IIRC. F&C makes a one piece resin body kit of
the PRR F33.

Jerry Glow

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Gatwood, Elden J SAD "
wrote:

Guys;



The Alco Models well flat I have seen labeled as the "Greenville
Well Hole"
looks very much like a PRR F33. It has been ages since I saw one,
but that
was what it looked like. I cannot vouch for its accuracy, since I
never had
the opportunity to sit down and really examine one. I would also
very much
like to see some photos.



Thanks,



Elden Gatwood


------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links



Re: Boraxo Covered Hoppers

ed_mines
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...>
asked can (anyone) find some photos of the 1950s Boraxo covered
hoppers.


Isn't there a small photo in the Kratville book (or is it a magazine?)
about hoppers?

Ed


Re: Alco Models Greenviile Well Hole Flatcar Model

jerryglow2
 

I thought it resembled a C&O car which was also done as a craftsman
kit by Quality Craft IIRC. F&C makes a one piece resin body kit of
the PRR F33.

Jerry Glow

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Gatwood, Elden J SAD "
<elden.j.gatwood@...> wrote:

Guys;



The Alco Models well flat I have seen labeled as the "Greenville
Well Hole"
looks very much like a PRR F33. It has been ages since I saw one,
but that
was what it looked like. I cannot vouch for its accuracy, since I
never had
the opportunity to sit down and really examine one. I would also
very much
like to see some photos.



Thanks,



Elden Gatwood


Re: Eastern States Farmers Exchange reefers

Steve Lucas <stevelucas3@...>
 

Black Rock, NY was a major interchange point between US and
Canadian roads. Just how far did these cars travel?

Steve Lucas

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Roger Hinman <rhinman@...> wrote:

That should be Black Rock, NY

Roger H
On Oct 1, 2008, at 6:02 PM, Roger Hinman wrote:

Add Ohio to the list, I have a couple of car photos that are
stenciled "Return to Eastern States Farmers Exchange, NKPRR, Huron
OH"

Others are stencilled "Return to Eastern States Farmers Exchante,
NYC,
Black Rock, NH"

Roger Hinman


Re: Boraxo Covered Hoppers

Tim O'Connor
 

Richard, I assume you already found this message from Sam Clarke
in the archives?
================================================================
Bobs' Photo has a photo of NAHX #31060 with the large Boraxo paint
scheme. [snip] The car has the 1954-56 channel end ribs and the early
less common narrow hatch spacing with the notched hatch straps. Because
of the narrow hatch spacing we will not be doing this car in the near
future, or maybe even the distance future.
Sam Clarke
Kadee Quality Products
=================================================================

Arnold Menke, who has supplied many of us with freight car photos and
now has many of Will Whittaker's freight car negs, has asked me if I
can find him some photos of the 1950s Boraxo covered hoppers. Can
anyone on the list help out?

Richard Hendrickson


Re: MILW interchange carload data

Dave Nelson
 

My question is why are carloads interchanged to a terminal/belt line
(like EJ&E) listed with the road they were interchanged to next (like the
IC)?

The ICC wasn't interested in the carload / tonnage data from such carriers.
The rule for reporting wasthat I know of was: If the terminal road
originated or terminated the load, count it as if it occured on your own
road. Ditto for water carriers. That's why roads like the B&LE reported
*originating* Iron Ore, when, of course, it all came from the Iron Range in
the upper Midwest.

I would guess a similar rule could be applied to Belt Lines. Assuming there
was such a rule it makes sense to report the "far" road involved.

Dave Nelson


Copeland data differences Re: MILW interchange carload data

Paul Krueger <kruegerp@...>
 

Thanks Allen. I wonder if the differences in the totals are the
result of what carloads are being counted? Maybe overhead/bridge
traffic isn't included?

I don't discount the possibility of bad bookkeeping though. Notice at
the end of the 1953/54 sheet there is a line for 'Miscellaneous'
carloads not attributed to any railroad or interchange location.

Paul
Seattle, WA

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "allen rueter" <allen_282@...> wrote:

Paul,
Hmm,
I have the same data for the Wabash, what's weird is they do not
match, I guess the accountants were cooking the books back the too?
1954
Milw sheet: Wabash Council Bluffs 387 215
Wab sheet: Milw Council Bluffs 199 243

Milw sheet: Wabash Chicago 5224 8802
Wab Sheet: Milw Chicago 5456 2141

Milw Sheet: Wabash Manhattan 18 2
Wab Sheet: Milw Manhattan 2 17

The Milw sheet does not show Brisbane(EJE), Crocker (EJE) or Tolleston
(IHB) But the Wabash show Milw loads at these points.
The Wabash sheet doesn't show Blue Island(IHB), Roundout(EJE),
Spalding(EJE).

Allen Rueter

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Krueger" <kruegerp@> wrote:

I've added some Copeland interchange data for the Milwaukee in the
files area:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/files/MILW%20interchange%20data/

Included are a full sheet for 1956 and partial sheets covering 1953,
1954, and 1955. The partial sheets are put together from 8.5x11
photocopies that didn't cover the whole sheet. All of them have been
cut and pasted into an 8.5x11 format. I apologize that the quality is
uneven, but I did what I could with the photocopies I have. If you're
having trouble reading something important, let me know off-list and
I'll see if I can help.

I have a question and a request.

My question is why are carloads interchanged to a terminal/belt line
(like EJ&E) listed with the road they were interchanged to next (like
the IC)? How is this different than a car being turned over to the
NKP to hand over to the LV, other than the fact the former case
completely occurs within the Chicago switching district?

My request is for help with interchange data for the MILW (Chicago,
Milwaukee & Gary prior to 1930) at the following Illinois stations:
Aurora: CB&Q, C&NW, EJ&E
DeKalb: C&NW, CGW
Delmar: NYC
Joliet: Alton/C&A/GM&O, ATSF, MC/NYC, EJ&E, RI
Manhattan: Wabash
Momence: C&EI, NYC
Rockford: CB&Q, C&NW, IC
Wilkinson: CGW

Thanks,
Paul
Seattle, WA

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