Date   

Re: New Athearn VGN 3 bay hopper

Bruce Smith
 

On Oct 16, 2008, at 3:24 PM, timboconnor@... wrote:


True, but I got the idea from the Athearn announcement that the
model being offered is the 3-bay -ribbed- hopper, not the offset, and
that car is quite similar to some prototypes e.g. C&O. I don't know
if it is correct or even close for VGN.

Tim O'Connor
Tim,

It is the MDC ribbed hopper, but it is still, to borrow a phrase, "trying to put lipstick on a pig".

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
__
/ \
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0


Re: IRC 1958 cuft hoppers

Tim O'Connor
 

Yeah, probably all 700 or 800 actual modelers left on the planet will
be very excited... :-)

Tim O'Connor

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>

I think most modelers will be blown away by these new cars.


Re: New Athearn VGN 3 bay hopper

Tim O'Connor
 

True, but I got the idea from the Athearn announcement that the
model being offered is the 3-bay -ribbed- hopper, not the offset, and
that car is quite similar to some prototypes e.g. C&O. I don't know
if it is correct or even close for VGN.

Tim O'Connor

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...>

In fact, not based on any prototype. The MDC model was a generic
design and totally bogus, and Athearn's "improvements" don't change
that.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: IRC 1958 cuft hoppers

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Eric Mumper wrote:
As has been noted on this list before, there is nothing like picking up the phone and talking directly to the source. Intermountain claims these are 1 to 2 weeks from being in house and available on the first run.
Since I talked to Frank Angstead, IM's president, just two weeks ago, one could believe that was "the source," but in reality Frank is an accountant and does not really know a great deal about prototypes or even about production details. Your news that they are so close is GOOD news. I think most modelers will be blown away by these new cars.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: New Bulkhead HO scale 70-ton flatcar

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Oct 15, 2008, at 11:20 AM, Peter Ness wrote:

Hi Richard,
I was one of several that attempted to provide feedback to IM on the
New Haven NE-5 caboose two years prior to production based on the
pilot
with no result.

While there are published photos of one type of NH 19000-series
bulkhead flat (low bulkhead), I have a rare image of the high bulkhead
version.

Do you think it's worth sharing with IM or are they better off just
going on their merry way?












At this point, I think it's a waste of time. Since they have the
drawings for the B&O bulkhead, that's doubtless what they will model,
and they're certainly not going to tool two different bulkheads. At
least they're following the B&O prototype and not inventing something
that's totally bogus.


Richard Hendrickson


Re: New Athearn VGN 3 bay hopper

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Oct 16, 2008, at 9:45 AM, jim_mischke wrote:

I believe this VGN car is a tool-modified MDC three bay offset hopper.

Based on a B&LE prototype. If that.

I have purged all MDC offset triples from my model railroad. I do
not think there is anything they can do to make it acceptable.







In fact, not based on any prototype. The MDC model was a generic
design and totally bogus, and Athearn's "improvements" don't change
that.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: New Athearn VGN 3 bay hopper

jim_mischke <jmischke@...>
 

I believe this VGN car is a tool-modified MDC three bay offset hopper.

Based on a B&LE prototype. If that.

I have purged all MDC offset triples from my model railroad. I do
not think there is anything they can do to make it acceptable.





--- In STMFC@..., "Bill McCoy" <wpmccoy@...> wrote:

Is this car correct for the VGN? IIRC the Athearn 2 bay outside
braced
car is the best VGN 2 bay car out at this time. Also, Other than
the
Bowser and BLI N&W hoppers are there any other cars on the market
that
would work for the N&W.

Thanks.

Bill McCoy
Jax, FL


Re: resin versus injection molded

ed_mines
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Gatwood, Elden J SAD "
<elden.j.gatwood@...> wrote:
You are obviously not buying the right injection molded models.
Elden, you're right. I'm just disappointed that the ProtoWest kits come
2 to a box.

Many of the members of this list see each other face to face several
times a year. That's never going to happen with me. I met 2 or 3 list
memebers 25 years ago.

I'm not supposed to buy any more models but sometimes I can't help
myself - like Ted's Wabash dd SS box car or some undec P2K cars on sale.

I have enough kits in storage to last me 3 life times.

Ed


Re: IRC 1958 cuft hoppers

Eric Mumper <ericmumper@...>
 

Tony,

Thank you for the reply. I anticipate some discrepancy with regards
to latches and roof details and need to organize my reference
material to deal with that in the future. As has been noted on this
list before, there is nothing like picking up the phone and talking
directly to the source. Intermountain claims these are 1 to 2 weeks
from being in house and available on the first run.

Eric Mumper

--- In STMFC@..., Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

Eric Mumper wrote:
Just went over to the Intermountain website and it looks like the
new
1958 cuft covered hoppers are available and the site has pictures
of
actual models - not just drawings. Has anyone seen these and can
anyone comment on their accuracy and quality of assembly? Always
want
to ask this since first runs can have "issues".
I saw a couple of complete models at the SP Society convention
last
month. They looked excellent, with fine grab iron detail like the
Kadee
PS-2 models. Of course that's not a measure of production.
Accuracy, as
Tim O'Connor pointed out a few days ago, depends on your prototype:
does it have double latch "fingers" or single? double latch bars on
each side or single? is the roof smooth, riveted or ribbed? As for
"now" I don't think you're right. Frank Angstead of Intermountain
said
they HOPED they would have the first batch in by Christmas. But if
anyone knows more, please enlighten us.

Currently there are about 150 of the Bowser/Kato/E&B Valley cars
moving silica sand around my layout and an upgrade would be nice.
They will be an immense upgrade over E&B Valley, and still
a
distinct upgrade over Bowser and Kato--far better grab irons. I
haven't
yet seen a Bowser paint job that had accurate lettering, so I have
a
low opinion of those cars and have built Katos instead. But I think
the
IM cars will be a serious piece of progress.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: resin versus injection molded

ed_mines
 

--- In STMFC@..., "mcindoefalls" <mcindoefalls@...> wrote:

--- In STMFC@..., "ed_mines" <ed_mines@> wrote:

. . . I do dislike having to buy more than one
car to get a kit.
Meaning what? Trying to find enough parts that match?
Meaning more than one car comes in a package, like Kato covered hoppers
or Broadway Limited PRR stock cars or now ProtoWest.


Re: New HO scale 70-ton flatcar

rockroll50401 <cepropst@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Gatwood, Elden J SAD "
<elden.j.gatwood@...> wrote:
I have taken the approach where my loads are almost all removable,
and can be
used on different flat cars. There is no other way I can model loads
in/empties out, and vice versa.

Elden,
My loads are permanent. The cars come on to the layout (setout by
through trains) and are spotted on transfer tracks. The farm equipment
dealers were on the Milwaukee and CNW. They are removed from the
transfers after the ops session and placed back in the through trains.
Clark Propst


Re: Cabot Carbon Black Cars

Ed Hawkins
 

On Oct 16, 2008, at 8:11 AM, David North wrote:

The original series were built from 1933 to 1942 and numbered CABX 21
to
CABX 106.

The second series were built from 1946 to 1949 and were numbered CABX
107 to
CABX 146.

Both series were very similar in appearance and Richard Hendrickson
included
a 1952 photo of a later series car in his recent RMJ article showing
the car
with an Apex roof walk.

Does anyone know if the earlier series cars had their wooden walks
replaced
with metal walks and if so, when?
Dave,
The "original series" of CABX 21-106 was actually comprised of 9
separate orders of cars ranging in quantities of 5 through 20 and built
11-33 through 4-42. The "second series" of CABX 107-146 was actually
two orders of 20 cars each built in 2-47 and 8-49, respectively.

CABX 21-126 had wood running boards (all cars built through 2-47). CABX
127-146 had Apex running boards. Also, CABX 21-106 had vertical staff
hand brakes. CABX 107-146 had Ajax power hand brakes. Most of this data
comes from AC&F bill of materials documentation (AC&F built the
majority of CABX cars through 1949). CABX cars built in 1952 and 1958
(147-211) had a larger capacity than 21-146, which were 3,000 cu.ft.
cars.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins


Cabot Carbon Black Cars

David North <davenorth@...>
 

Hi guys, I need some help with these cars, please.

The original series were built from 1933 to 1942 and numbered CABX 21 to
CABX 106.

The second series were built from 1946 to 1949 and were numbered CABX 107 to
CABX 146.

Both series were very similar in appearance and Richard Hendrickson included
a 1952 photo of a later series car in his recent RMJ article showing the car
with an Apex roof walk.

Does anyone know if the earlier series cars had their wooden walks replaced
with metal walks and if so, when?

Thanks in advance

Cheers

Dave


Re: New HO scale 70-ton flatcar

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Clark;



That is an astounding percentage of flat cars! Over 10% flats!



I have a lesser but similar dilemma in that my section of the PRR hosted a
lot of flats.



I have taken the approach where my loads are almost all removable, and can be
used on different flat cars. There is no other way I can model loads
in/empties out, and vice versa.



No, I cannot have chain or banding going down through stake pockets, but I
simulate it by applying dunnage under the load that goes to the edge of the
car and wrap the banding under that. I also apply dunnage under a load, and
then apply rods that look like they go thru the deck, which was also a common
way of securing a load It is hard to tell the difference.



Another dodge is to have blocking set up on a few cars that accommodates one
load, like a bulldozer or tractors or a transformer. The last is building
cheap loads or a master and casting your own. I have done lots of that for
the >100 hundred gons I need (no, I have not built that many....yet).
Blocking that is permanently attached to the ends and sides of a load also
works, and gives the appearance of being nailed to the deck.



If you look closely at the AAR loading rules, you can see numerous ways of
making this illusion work.



I have nice clear plastic boxes from WalMart with compartments (I found them
in the fishing dept) that I used to keep the loads separate and damage free,
when not on the cars.



Oh, and lastly, most of these loads have that "Figure Cement" applied to the
base, to make them stick without creating a mess when removed. It actually
works.



Elden Gatwood





________________________________

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
rockroll50401
Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2008 3:53 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: New HO scale 70-ton flatcar



Here's my dilemma with flat cars.

I'm with Gene Green. We model the M&StL. Gene has shared
the "Landermesser Lists" with me/others. Although it can be argued
the lists aren't an accurate cross section of traffic on the
railroad, I think they're pretty close and beside they're about all
we have. Out of almost 1400 entries only about 150 are FM type flat
cars. About a third of those were home road cars.
As a disciplined prototype modeler I try to buy cars off `the list'
that carried lading pertinent to the industries I model. And keeping
in mind that one in three needs to be home road.

Life-Like makes a nice model lettered for the home road and Sunshine
will eventually have the other style 50' home road flat. I have a
Pennsy Bowser F something or other model (with pipe load) lettered
for the same series that is on `the list' and a Sunshine CNW car
(tractors) numbered from `the list'. But, that's where I end with
the discipline thing. I have a CB&Q car (Bulldozer in gates) that
Martin gave away at his Tupperware party. I have the Red Caboose SP
fter (plows and seeders), just for variety. I will buy the IM car,
again for variety. So, I can add another home road car. That will be
about all the flats I can afford to put loads on.

Like I said, a bigger concern than the price of the flat car model
is the price of what to put on them as a load. Priced any period
model farm machinery lately? It is conceivable to wrap nearly $100
in the load. That's beyond practical!

Clark Propst


Re: resin versus injection molded

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Ed;



You are obviously not buying the right injection molded models. I have used
numerous injection molded kits as the basis for some really nice kit-bashes,
used injected molded parts in preference to resin parts on many occasions, as
well as the many kits I have just built up without modification. It has been
very helpful for me to take my mag visor with me to the store to see what I
am buying beforehand, but there is some truly superior stuff out there to be
had now days.



I can't go into more detail on the list, but of all the three PRR X29B I have
worked on, each using a different kit or group of parts, the one I did using
the Branchline Blueprint 40' 7'-door car for the car body is by far my
favorite. If you are interested, let me know and we can discuss off-line.



Elden Gatwood



________________________________

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Bill
Schneider
Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2008 4:15 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] resin versus injection molded



Ed,

A sweeping statement like this is bound to cause some discussion on the list,
but.. I'd venture to say that a LOT depends on WHO's resin and/or injected
kits your comparing! There are good, bad and ugly in BOTH camps... :>)

Bill Schneider

----- Original Message -----
From: ed_mines
To: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2008 2:58 PM
Subject: [STMFC] resin versus injection molded

Every time I bought an injection molded car instead of a resin car I've
been disappointed.

The detail on the resin car is much crisper and of course more accurate.

I don't mind paying more but I do dislike having to buy more than one
car to get a kit.

Ed


Re: alternate standard twin offset hopper

Gatwood, Elden J SAD
 

Having just done my annual read-thru on the details of each road's version of
the alt std offset twin, the issues remaining in just applying an overlay to
another offset twin, and even more importantly, the fact that we ALL need
more than one of these highly important hoppers, I just don't think an
overlay cuts it. We need a state-of-the-art complete resin kit or better,
the same in plastic. The latter being unlikely (due to the many variants
involved), we need to convince the resin manufacturers to have their pattern
maker make these cars. We need the 10'5" and 10'10" versions, with all the
ends, and the side sill and end framing variations. I know the C&O modelers
have been aching for their version for many years, and many other roads are
just not easily modelable without this car, including Erie, NKP, Montour,
WLE, P&WV, P&S, and others.



Start the bugging!



Elden Gatwood



________________________________

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
cobrapsl@...
Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2008 4:35 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] alternate standard twin offset hopper



Ed Mines said:

His PFE reefers are nice and
judging by advertising I doubt he's sold a great many of them, even
with the assembled cars from Intermountain.

Ed,
Just out of curiousity, what do you think in numbers is not "a great many"? I
think the answer?will surprise you.

Paul Lyons
Laguna Niguel, CA

-----Original Message-----
From: ed_mines <ed_mines@... <mailto:ed_mines%40yahoo.com> >
To: STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 10:59 am
Subject: [STMFC] alternate standard twin offset hopper

--- In STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> , "Jim & Lisa
Hayes" <jimandlisa97225@...>
wrote:
Five years ago Sunshine did a mini-kit for this car with very thin
side
castings to be overlaid over a sanded down Atlas hopper.
I wonder if Terry Wegman could cut an injection molded overlay with the
parts being sold on a subscription basis (modelers order and pay for
the parts before the work is done).

I'm assuming Terry doesn't have much of a cash outlay, doing the work
after hours on his employer's equipment. His PFE reefers are nice and
judging by advertising I doubt he's sold a great many of them, even
with the assembled cars from Intermountain.

Ed


Re: nice IC box car

William Keene <wakeene@...>
 

Tim,

WOW! I will take one of each.

Thanks for the photo find.

-- Bill Keene
Irvine, CA

On Oct 14, 2008, at 4:11 PM, Tim O'Connor wrote:

The photo is listed on fallen flags as a caboose
shot... Appears to be from the late 1950's.

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/ic/ic-c9377jya.jpg

Tim O'



Re: resin versus injection molded

tyesac@...
 

Probably referring to some early kits that came two for the price.? An example would be two flat cars in the kit box for which the main rational was to support the selling price that was the same level for a more complex kit at a similar price.

As for a "GB&U" list, I'd only add the concept of "when" since one noteable hallmark of most companies is that thier quality has noticably evolved for the better.??This is?very obvious when you compare?an early effort to the latest offering.? If it wasn't for the label on the box, you'd never know they came from the same company.?

Tom C

-----Original Message-----
From: mcindoefalls <mcindoefalls@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 4:22 pm
Subject: [STMFC] Re: resin versus injection molded






--- In STMFC@..., "ed_mines" <ed_mines@...> wrote:

. . . I do dislike having to buy more than one
car to get a kit.
Meaning what? Trying to find enough parts that match?

Walt Lankenau


Re: Piedmont & Northern Caboose

Frank Valoczy <destron@...>
 

The Greenwood Railroad Historical Center
(http://www.themuseum-greenwood.org/train.shtml)

is at 106 Main Street in Greenwood, SC. According to the website,
they're open Saturdays 11 to 4 April through October, "weather
permitting", $5 for adults, $2 for kids/seniors/students.

I too would be very interested in seeing photos of the P&N caboose (as
well as the P&N office car that's at Greenwood museum ("Carolina"),
and the interurban car #2102), especially if there could be detail
photos to make a good model with!

Eric, if you want info on the P&N's freight cars, please look at not
the last but the issue before last, that has part one of a P&N freight
car article, covering boxcars; part two will follow in the next issue
to come out, and will cover all other freight cars plus MoW - no
cabooses though.

Regards,

Frank Valoczy
Vancouver, BC

--- In STMFC@..., Bob McCarthy <thesupplycar@...> wrote:

Eric,

Send me a lead on the museum address and website. I will get
startedon the research immediately.

Bob
803-429-1811 1000-2300hrs daily
The mighty Central of Georgia in scale S.


--- On Wed, 10/15/08, Eric Hiser <ehiser@...> wrote:

From: Eric Hiser <ehiser@...>
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Piedmont & Northern Caboose
To: STMFC@...
Date: Wednesday, October 15, 2008, 8:45 PM






Bob:
That would be fabulous. My wife's father is a railfan for the
Piedmont & Northern and my wife has asked me to build him an O scale
caboose
of his favorite line to put on the mantle of his fire place. Hence, I am
trying to get a good photo so I can find a close caboose and then
build the
requested model, helping me with both wife and father-in-law!
Your help would be deeply, deeply appreciated!
I model HO an extension of the Santa Fe's Clarkdale branch circa
1926, but am happy to learn more about the P&N and the railroads of
the SE.

Eric Hiser
Phoenix, AZ
ehiser@...

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups. com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups. com] On
Behalf Of Bob
McCarthy
Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 9:05 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups. com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Piedmont & Northern Caboose

Eric,

How about we go to Greenwood and get some pictures for you.
What else
do you need.

We are in Columbia, SC and not that far from Greenwood.
Luckily I am
married to a woman who has riddden in steam engine cabs as a child. She
likes and understand railroads.

Want a show of hands for those married guys who have a wife who
will
say while having dinner, "You know we need to start a communter line
from
Newberry, SC to Columbia, SC."
I submit I am very lucky, she even has relatives, Uncle Shelby Lowe, who
wrote the book on Southern steam, a Grandfather E.E. Lowe who was
the Senior
Conductor on The Southern Cresent when he retired, with a Great
Grandfather
Alonzo Lowe who was an engineer for a line that the Southern absorbed.

So she will say 'road trip' if you send me the website of the
museum.
We will get everything we can for you.

Are you in HO?

Bob McCarthy
Modeling in Scale S the Mighty Central of Georgia in the 1950's

--- On Wed, 10/15/08, Eric Hiser <ehiser@...> wrote:

From: Eric Hiser <ehiser@...>
Subject: [STMFC] Piedmont & Northern Caboose
To: STMFC@yahoogroups. com
Date: Wednesday, October 15, 2008, 3:43 AM

I am looking for a photograph of a Piedmont & Northern Caboose,
preferably
during the early part of the 20th Century. I have checked the P&N
book, but
the photo in it is not very helpful. I know that there is a preserved
caboose at the Railroad Historical Center in Greenwood, SC, but they
do not
have a photo of any of the equipment on the webpage. Does anyone have a
photo that they could share or a reference to where one may be? It
would be
appreciated!

Eric Hiser
Phoenix, AZ
ehiser@...



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Yahoo! Groups Links


















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Re: Piedmont & Northern Caboose

Bob McCarthy
 

Eric,
 
   Send me a lead on the museum address and website.  I will get startedon the research immediately.
 
Bob
803-429-1811  1000-2300hrs daily
The mighty Central of Georgia in scale S.

--- On Wed, 10/15/08, Eric Hiser <ehiser@...> wrote:

From: Eric Hiser <ehiser@...>
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Piedmont & Northern Caboose
To: STMFC@...
Date: Wednesday, October 15, 2008, 8:45 PM






Bob:
That would be fabulous. My wife's father is a railfan for the
Piedmont & Northern and my wife has asked me to build him an O scale caboose
of his favorite line to put on the mantle of his fire place. Hence, I am
trying to get a good photo so I can find a close caboose and then build the
requested model, helping me with both wife and father-in-law!
Your help would be deeply, deeply appreciated!
I model HO an extension of the Santa Fe's Clarkdale branch circa
1926, but am happy to learn more about the P&N and the railroads of the SE.

Eric Hiser
Phoenix, AZ
ehiser@...

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups. com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Bob
McCarthy
Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2008 9:05 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups. com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Piedmont & Northern Caboose

Eric,
 
     How about we go to Greenwood and get some pictures for you.  What else
do you need.
 
     We are in Columbia, SC and not that far from Greenwood.  Luckily I am
married to a woman who has riddden in steam engine cabs as a child.  She
likes and understand railroads.
 
     Want a show of hands for those married guys who have a wife who will
say while having dinner, "You know we need to start a communter line from
Newberry, SC to Columbia, SC."
I submit I am very lucky, she even has relatives, Uncle Shelby Lowe, who
wrote the book on Southern steam, a Grandfather E.E. Lowe who was the Senior
Conductor on The Southern Cresent when he retired, with a Great Grandfather
Alonzo Lowe who was an engineer for a line that the Southern absorbed. 
 
    So she will say 'road trip' if you send me the website of the museum. 
We will get everything we can for you. 
 
     Are you in HO?
 
Bob McCarthy
Modeling in Scale S the Mighty Central of Georgia in the 1950's

--- On Wed, 10/15/08, Eric Hiser <ehiser@...> wrote:

From: Eric Hiser <ehiser@...>
Subject: [STMFC] Piedmont & Northern Caboose
To: STMFC@yahoogroups. com
Date: Wednesday, October 15, 2008, 3:43 AM

I am looking for a photograph of a Piedmont & Northern Caboose, preferably
during the early part of the 20th Century. I have checked the P&N book, but
the photo in it is not very helpful. I know that there is a preserved
caboose at the Railroad Historical Center in Greenwood, SC, but they do not
have a photo of any of the equipment on the webpage. Does anyone have a
photo that they could share or a reference to where one may be? It would be
appreciated!

Eric Hiser
Phoenix, AZ
ehiser@...

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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